A brief pause

Hi there.

Just wanted to leave a little note here to let you know that at the end of December I will be relocating all the way across the country to Maine, where I am from. My partner and my dog and I are going to take a rather slow route with a prolonged stop in San Antonio, Texas. We are planning to be settled in Maine in mid-February and I will begin interviewing folks for year four of A Community Thread at that time.

Thank you for your patience during this transition. And thank you to the kind folks of Bend, Oregon, and the surrounding area for their participation and support for these first years of this project.

Happy Holidays to each of you. Here’s to a wonderful start to a new year!

Warmly,

Joshua Langlais

PS. Please enjoy this final audio file for this year. Shanti O’Connor interviewed me in mid-November on the local radio station here in Bend, Oregon, and they were kind enough to share that file with me. I thought it might be a good opportunity for all you listeners and supporters to hear a little more about me and why I do this work.

I recently had the honor of chatting on the radio with Shanti O'Connor, whose interview you may remember from earlier this year. Shanti cohosts a show on KPOV, the local radio station here in Bend, Oregon.

Tyler Graham

This is the 50th and final interview for this year and the 160th interview overall for A Community Thread. I owe a huge thank you to Leslie as it is unlikely I would have met Tyler without her. I first met Tyler, who is Leslie's husband, when I showed up at their house to interview Leslie earlier this year and that was the beginning of what has turned out to be a very lovely friendship with both of them. Tyler and I have spent many hours on many occasions in genuine conversation over the course of this year and I have come to value his opinion and outlook and admire him as a man and caring human. Because of our time together and what I have come to know of Tyler, I invited him to be the final interview for this year. So, a big thank you and a big hug to him for graciously accepting. I am honored to introduce him to you here and hope that you will not only find our conversation uplifting but also a catalyst for changes big and small in your own daily practices.

I have been churning out interviews weekly for three years now and I have done so without taking a break to significantly evaluate any effect this is having. In mid-stride, I have been thinking and analyzing and questioning and have accordingly made some tweaks to the questions and some adjustments to my general practices, but I have come to understand that I need to take a little space to not only better analyze my desired outcomes and how to have a greater effect, but also to better understand how to digest all of this information personally. While there may be a lull in posts for a period of time, much will be happening behind the scenes and more will come soon. With all of that said and without further ado, here is Tyler Graham. 

PS. Tyler has a very soothing voice and we go off on some tangents, so I'd listen to this one if you can build it into your schedule. 

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TG: I'm Tyler Graham. I'm the father of a 27-year-old daughter; husband to a fantastic wife, Leslie Graham; an Oregonian by spending most of my life in this state, but born in Washington, so a Northwesterner, for sure. Having had the opportunity to be a lot of other places, I definitely would come back over and over again — and have done that. Other than that, I'd just say I think of myself as a diverse and open-minded progressive individual. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? 

TG: I think I understand the interest of keeping it personal there. Yet, even thinking it through as you spoke, I feel a challenge to keep it from being something bigger than that. The first things that come to mind on the small scale are, What raises my ire? What do I react to? What do I respond to that I see or hear or feel going on? It's probably two things: it's really mostly how we treat each other or how I see other people treat others even more so than how I myself am treated. Because I'm a white guy; I'm educated; I came from a family with parents that are still together, both college educated, etc. So, I know that even if I try to peel back layers and try to see it from other people's perspective that I've got a long ways to go to get there. And I know that I don't get treated the way I see other people get treated. So, it's often more about how I see other people responding or reacting to each other and learning about those... coupled with how we treat the Earth — the world that we live in. 

Again, those are in some ways big, grandiose things — I realize that. Trying to honor your question, those are also, though, the things that make react. Those are the things that I respond to. Those are the things that make me happy or sad or upset during the day or spend time pondering, What could I do to change either who I am or where I live and the things that I see going on around me that are part of that? In terms of the burr under my saddle blanket, it's those two sorts of things if I boiled it down, more than anything else. 

As you framed up the question, though, I was thinking globalization is the problem that bothers me the most because it's what's depersonalized and it's what's commoditized and everything else. But that, to me, would be the grandiose extension of, What do I think is wrong with the world around us?

I think specifically it's just that interaction mode of people. You certainly nailed a few of the things that we see in the headlines — human trafficking or disparity or inequality in things. When I boil it down because of some of my interests and the reading that I've done, it looks like and is a lot closer to the very localist examples of that. For example, a good one for me is living throughout the States and watching traffic and watching people allow other people to merge and seeing that in Oregon — it's something that sometimes almost makes me feel proud to be an Oregonian. I literally watch people get surprised when somebody else lets them in traffic. That's how we treat each other. Then I extrapolate from there, and I think sometimes I probably make a big deal out of nothing, but that makes me feel good when somebody lets me in and I might carry that at least a couple of intersections or a couple of traffic interactions further down the road. And maybe when I let somebody else in, that gives them a smile when they were having a grey or down day of some some sort. That's about as personal as I guess I can think of it — in simple, daily interactions like that. 

ACT: What inspires or motivates you to do something about these things that bother you? 

TG: I try to really think about motivation turning into action more than just thinking or superficial reactions or responses. I think probably two things come out of that. One that is probably the most prevalent is having knowledge about things that other people have done as sort of a success story, in a sense. But people that are doing good things about this sort of thing is not necessarily a success story. It's an attempt; it's a trial. It could be an organization that somebody's launched. It could be an idea that somebody's come up with. 

A simple example for me in terms of how we treat the Earth would be some of the inventions and, most recently, it's been fairly young people coming up with them — how to solve some of these problems like plastics in the ocean and some of the simple devices to try to approach doing something about that. That inspires me. I see or I read or I hear about something like that and it makes me feel like, Right, there's one person at a fairly low-dollar entry point that's done something about it and it looks like it can be effective. That inspires me. That motivates me. 

And sometimes it's a small reaction that I have. Maybe it just makes me a stronger participant in recycling or something like that, but it affects me and it gives me a little bit of energy to spend thinking about how I can make a difference, too. It certainly reaffirms that idea that each one of us can make a difference. Because there's plenty of things else going on that might make me feel like we don't have that ability to make a difference ourselves as much as we'd like to or as much as the story that I heard when I was a kid about how we can all make a difference and things like that. That's probably the strongest motivator — not necessarily the example of others, but sometimes just a principle that somebody's published or shared a story about or shared an experience about. 

And then I think second to that is probably when I have done something. And it can be pretty small. The idea of mentoring, sharing experiences.... being able to put some of those things that I've learned into action. And maybe having the freedom to act in some cases, too. Not being burdened or not being preoccupied or, conversely, sometimes having a few dollars to spend on something and do what I feel is right in even the smallest ways. So, acting or reacting is another way to boil those two things down. I get motivated in reaction to other things and I feel more motivated, potentially, by acting myself. 

ACT: It's interesting what you said about it making you feel good when someone allows you to enter traffic or it makes you feel good to do the same for someone else and how that ties into the Golden Rule or the Platinum Rule. But the source of my frustration is when that doesn't happen and you can extrapolate that into the larger issues. Do you want to be persecuted for your thoughts or your beliefs? Do you want to not be allowed into traffic? Do you want to be yelled at? Do you want to be abused? Unless there is some sort of significant anomaly, the answer is likely to be no. But all the negative stuff is happening, so somehow enough people aren't paying attention to what makes them feel good. Is it so simple as that — do what you want to have done to you? Be kind?

TG: I think that's a real challenge. It's been a long time and I don't remember which book, but there was some book out there, way back, that inspired that thought process of anarchy versus a rule set. What really happens if we don't have rules? Will people act in reasonable ways? Will they treat each other reasonably? And I tend to believe no. At the same time, I really hesitate to want to lump that into this human nature thing and if we're all allowed to act the way we want to, some of it's gonna look pretty bad. At the same time, I don't know how else to explain things like slavery or human trafficking or some of the other stuff that happens. Because it seems to me that the people that could do something better, didn't always do something better. People that had the power to be "in charge", they did some pretty horrible things. The majority direction doesn't flow towards the greater good always — it sure doesn't seem that way. 

I'm trying to think if there's another good traffic analogy. I've driven a lot. I've moved across the States multiple times, so I've spent a lot of time in cars. It's not something I love doing necessarily, but I certainly do some good thinking spending time in cars and driving around. Maybe what's relevant here for me is this idea of perspective. 

I remember when I was younger, I was living in the DC Metro area... and traffic was pretty bad. What I didn't know then that I know now is there's a scientific study that says waiting to the last minute to merge when you've got a lane ending is the most efficient zipper technique. But when I was younger, I used to get really frustrated by the people that would come up alongside me or keep pushing it to the end. My whole perspective on that has changed. Information is a perspective and how does that affect whether things are going better on the whole or worse on the whole? Something like that can make a huge difference. But I think there's a lot of other challenges with it, too, right? I had to be open enough to one, believe in science and read it, find it, or it found it's way to me; or accept it, maybe experience it in a few ways; and allow it to change my mind about the way I had perceived something for years. I had been an adult driver for probably twentyish years, maybe more, when I learned that. And I'd been pretty frustrated and pretty mad a few times with people. And now I have a totally different attitude about it. 

But I wonder when I'm doing it now — because I practice it sometimes now on purpose, thoughtfully — what the people in the lane next to me are thinking and feeling. And I'm concerned about that. Are they gonna be bothered? Are they upset? Do some of them know about the zipper concept? Or not? And how's that going to affect the whole thing that's happening in that chain of traffic in that moment and the few moments after? Sometimes I feel like it's not a good idea to do it even though I know scientifically it's the right thing to do... 

Is it mostly good with a few bad? I don't know. I'd like to think that's a trend that changes back and forth and has probably over time changed back and forth around the world. I'll go back to that human nature perspective there. If we didn't have some rules and we let people be people and we watched what happened, I am pretty convinced it wouldn't all be good. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

TG: Yeah, that's an interesting one — even having had time to consider it. I kind of want to say people are the cement — we're this live layer operating around the globe that represent what's above and what's below in some ways. And I don't mean that spiritually specifically at all. We represent the food chain in the food that we eat and the waste stream that we create. Those are both things that are human-created or human-generated. 

And then the relationship layer that's on top of that. What are people in terms of the catalyst for feeling good or feeling bad? The layer that I recognize the most in terms of family and a sense of place. People help me identify who I am. I look at other people and think about how I might want to be more like them or less like them. Not a sounding board, exactly, and not a crucible in the sense that it's all about other people that have made me who I am, necessarily. Not even a mirror, exactly, 'cause it's certainly not looking quite at yourself when you look at other people. But that sense of looking out there and seeing maybe in a sense what bounces off or what sticks to me. The plane of evolution related to people. I look at history and think about the people that came before us and wonder about the people that are going to come after us and what that's going to look like. 

So, it's really a meter. What's the trend today versus what was the trend before TV or before social media? Are we operating in little microcosms of our community locally? Are we operating in a different type of community that's much broader than that because of whatever medium it's in? Through my life, there's been times that I've wondered what was it like to be a person and what were people like before print? If we were all writing on stone tablets, the sense of people and what we do and how we operate is significantly different than it is today where we can type on a keyboard and broadcast what we think or what we've written or even in audio or video — how we can get that around and what distribution looks like as opposed to at some other time.

I wasn't thinking this through when I started to answer this question, but this idea now that we really are this layer — almost like part of the stratosphere — because we're really linked around the Earth now in ways that we never have been before. I think back at historical different periods of time and things could be very isolated microcosms either geographically or just from a community basis. And I don't think that's so true anymore. 

Not really the glue, but maybe some of those graphic representations of populations. We're very much a linked layer of what life in the world's about. 

ACT: I've defined community as our relationships with each other and the world we live in. And most people seem to place their relationships as paramount. But we aren't treating each other very well. There seems to be some kind of inability to consider others. Why do you think we are struggling so much in that regard — to be kind or to be equitable or to be fair? 

TG: Wow, yes, it would be nice to have some simple answers to that. I can think of some ideas that come to mind, but I think we'd be grasping for a while to really pin it down and make it stick. Is it time? And that may be a really convenient explanation that we hear and read in different formats — how busy everyone is. 

And for a minute, I thought it was a different answer to say it's the attention span question that's been bantered around for a while — this idea that we have this short attention span now because of media and the way things are presented to us and how many different visions and views we have to have throughout our day to keep up with the pace of change. Screen-time related, mostly. The idea of the same time application doesn't really fit for parts of the world or cultures that aren't spending as much time looking at screens of some sort or another. But those are both time related. Do I have time to even know who you are? To have enough perspective? To think about how you might be different than me or have different needs than me or be operating at a different pace than I am or coming from a different place than I am? 

Is it consideration? It's not really time 'cause time's the same for everybody. Time's relative and everybody's got to some degree the same amount. Time moves at the same pace for all of us. Just because I'm busier than you are, because I can run faster or type faster or speak faster, doesn't make the time that I have to be considerate really that much different. 

Maybe it's principle-based as much as anything else. I want to be considerate. I want to take things into consideration. Now we could argue if I can think faster maybe I can take more variables into consideration and be more considerate on different layers or levels or realms than you or somebody else. Keep digging with that. Is that emotion? Is consideration just a thought or is it a choice that we're making to take the time to be considerate and not say, I'm too busy to possibly observe... ? What does it take to be considerate? Why are some people more considerate than others? Where has all the ability to be considerate gone? I guess it's really about principles or morals, maybe. 

And it's pretty easy for me to flip that into choice. It's a choice we make. I would argue that more of us could be considerate than are being considerate. So, that suggests choice. More of us know what it means to be considerate. We've had people be considerate of us at some point in our lives — not everybody and certainly not on an equal scale at all, but most people have experienced consideration at some point or another in their life. They've seen it and they know what it feels like. Maybe if they were really rushed or really harried, they didn't have time to absorb that and process that's what it was that they were experiencing or how it benefitted them. To me, that leads to choice. How do I take all that into what I'm going to do next or what I'm not going to do? And if I am just steamrolling over everything around me — either literally or figuratively; if I'm just pushing out the jungle because I want more space to build or I don't care about eliminating some species because I don't think they're significant or I'm polluting because I don't think the damage is gonna be that long-term or whatever it is — if I'm just rolling through all those decisions and not really being considerate or I think I've got a better way of evaluating it to know that the long-term good is okay for the harms that I'm creating... those are all choices that I'm making based on some framework that I think I have and/or I'm in a privileged position to operate from, as well. 

There's an interesting challenge there, too. Are we a blank slate or how much of how we act and operate is an effect from our environment? I often go to, What would children do? How do they treat each other? What do we see in those behaviors about being good to each other versus not being good to each other? Does that apply the same to cultural values? In a group behavioral situation left without some of the rules and before we've got all these cognitive boundaries that have been set by what we've been taught, how would we treat each other? It makes me curious. 

ACT: Here, from 37:50 through 47:50, we go into a ten-minute chat that I found difficult to transcribe but will be well-worth your listen. As a teaser, we explore making kindness and empathy and compassion popular, turning the other cheek for the greater good, discomfort and suffering, and living with spiders as an allegory for tolerance. 

ACT: Instead of having hope for a better future, which seems to imply some wishing and ensuing magical action, do you have hope that we will accept responsibility and take action to work toward a better future? 

TG: When I was a young teen, in some pretty dark space sometimes, having read those stories [of resistance], that probably gave me hope then and made me really believe that it just about doesn't matter how crappy people treat each other and how bad things are, there is another part of human nature that is... resilient isn't quite the right word for it... but we don't quit and we don't give up. And that's not any given group of people around the world; it's happened over and over again in all kinds of different communities and societies and organizations. It's demonstrated in some sci-fi movies, obviously, too. I want to believe that's real. 

If I really need hope, I think about people that have survived solitary confinement and I think about resistance organizations in repressed countries. People come through. How is that we haven't learned from history? How is it that history's gonna repeat itself again? I see it happening. We're doing it somehow or another again. When I really get to that space, I go, Yup, people will resist. People will come back. To turn it into nature, after an apocalyptic fire or when there's a volcano and serious devastation, things come back. Somehow we see things starting over or some thing survives, usually. So, that's it, I guess. The idea is that I know humans can persevere. I just believe that firmly. And I don't think that's anything that I was taught. I don't think that came from the way I was brought up, necessarily. I don't think it's something I learned in school — this idea — I think that's something that I grasped at innately. I think it's there and that maybe just perpetuates it for me, too. I don't think I'm the only one. I think there's other people around that must feel that way, too. And some of those people somewhere are probably struggling right now and there's a resistance going on somewhere right now that costs a lot for whoever's involved in it, but they're still doing it. They're not giving up. 

Some of the fluffier thinking along there was sort of making jokes about manifestation boards and can't we just put a picture on the wall and think about it and it will happen? And, arguably, there's some metaphysics behind that idea and putting energy into it, but no, I think we have to act. Things that I've seen work well, they didn't necessarily look pretty at the beginning. Or people weren't happy with the way something started, but you can see success stories when people persisted. It's more acting than it is thinking and, arguably, leading by example. And that doesn't necessarily mean a leader leading by example, but doing those things. 

I do believe a lot in that — putting energy into it. So, joking aside, doing it is more than thinking about it, but also the idea that just you doing it isn't more than thinking about it for anybody else. They might see you doing it, but you didn't make them do it, too, or you're not twisting their arm or you're not giving them any other motivation than doing it yourself. And that becomes thinking for them. So, is that groundswell? Is that grassroots? I'm pretty skeptical about that sometimes, but I also believe there's something very real to it, as well. 

Back to the first example, letting people in in traffic — I want to think that if I let somebody in, they're gonna let somebody else in... today or tomorrow or some other time when that clicks into their head — Hey, somebody just did me a courtesy. I love that idea of somebody paying at a tollbooth for the person behind them. I think that's a great thing and I like to believe somebody doing it and somebody else seeing that, somebody else experiencing it, would lead to somebody else potentially putting that foot in the water and doing it, too. Sure, I feel like that's maybe oversimplifying it, but I like to think about it being that way and taking off. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? Or a compulsion or a value system or something that you find difficult to explain but somehow guides you? 

TG: I would say yes to that. I think there's something. There's a motivation or there's a value system. There's something going on. I think that's why, from a philosophical perspective, that's why we want to be here; why we look forward to the future. Because there's something in us that makes us keep going and thinking and believing in... that we've got a role or a part and we're here for a reason. I don't have a reason that I think I'm here. It's more of a subconscious thing. And I've looked for it or I've tried to see it. I've wanted to be able to explain it in more specific terms than I can, but that's what I usually come back to is, Yeah, it's a thing. It's like a magnetic attraction. There's something going on and I believe in it and I think that for me, very specifically or personally, the sense is that I participate in society, I participate in my community or my relationships... yeah, I'm here for a reason and I have something to contribute and I'm trying to give back. And I don't mean that in some big, grandiose sense either, necessarily. Underneath it all, I definitely believe we'e here for a reason and we've got a purpose. There's a part to it... a part for us of being here. 

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

TG: Yeah, actually, I do. This idea of not specifically what to do next, but what to do more? Certainly talking about it.... and you're obviously doing something about it in a big way by putting this together and putting this out there and inviting the conversation with people. But what do we do even more about it? Let's say I want to be responsible and I do what I think is responsible and I'm acting in responsible ways and I'm being considerate — some of the stuff we talked about — but I don't really think that's enough. I'm not suggesting at all that I put all of my time into this. Certainly, it's easier to think about it than it is to put more time into it. But there's got to be more. What is that? What does that look like? And is it something that's fostered from more conversations and more uncomfortable Q & A? Is Q & A what it's all about? 

When I studied Arabic and learned more about the Middle Eastern culture, the idea of coffee shop conversations and socializing in groups and being out in small gatherings and having meaningful conversations meant a lot to me. And it didn't resonate with me that we do a lot of it here in the United States. I'm sure we could come up with arguments where we do... but I haven't been experiencing it in any meaningful way where conversation was leading towards this... this idea of how can we do more and how can we make it better? Conversations have to be part of it because that's where it starts. If they're not going on and more of us aren't participating then we aren't leading to action. I'd like to see ways for more of us to interact and then be active together. I believe in individual action, I sure do, but collective is definitely more powerful and effective than individual. 

This is the 50th and final interview for this year and the 160th interview overall for A Community Thread. I owe a huge thank you to Leslie as it is unlikely I would have met Tyler without her.

Travis Wiggins

Big thanks to Sheila Dunn for recommending Travis to participate here. I've actually known Travis for a year or so. We met through his wife, Emily, and I believe she initially wanted us to meet because of our sharing an interest in disseminating information via podcasts. Travis makes a podcast called Modern Folk and seems to have a pretty significant interest in living better and more thoughtfully. Travis also participated in a small group of folks I asked to gather together last year with the focus of giving me some advice as this project moved forward. It was so great that Sheila brought his name up. And their particular thread of referrals happens to be the longest one to date — 14 other people referred each other down this line that ended up landing me at Travis' door.

We have a great conversation here and I am so glad to share it with you. In the end, Travis starts interviewing me, too, which isn't exactly the norm. If you can, I recommend listening to this one as the back and forth aspect of our conversation and the tone and cadence and sincerity and smiles and laughter and even some tears seem to all be understood better through the ears than through the eyes. However you take it in, though, I do hope you'll be challenged and inspired. 

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TW: My name is Travis RIche Wiggins. I am a father, recently. My daughter's just a little over two years old and that's become a really large part of how I define myself right now. I'm a husband and a partner and a lover to my wife, Emily. I am a member of my family — that's really important to me. My family lives in Georgia — that's where I grew up — but I feel pretty darn connected to them despite the distance. I work as a nurse and that's definitely a part of my definition of myself. It's work that really resonates with me. It's the working with people. I'm a fairly deep thinker, although I feel like I often times end up keeping a lot of thoughts inside. I care about people quite a bit. I love people and I think that's such a gift to have these wonderful people in my life. 

ACT: That's a good segue. What do people mean to you? 

TW: I was tempted to say that people are everything, but I don't think that's really true. Because there are so many more things that I appreciate that aren't human. People are a wonderful way for us to experience being human — way for us to experience consciousness and our emotions. That's something that sets us apart from a lot of the other things that I appreciate. I love the trees and I love the breeze that's blowing outside right now. I have so much appreciation for all those things, but I really love about people our humanness. And the human experience I find to be rather interesting. Seeing that quite a bit as a nurse and the different things that people bring to our relationships. When I meet them in the hospital or I meet people on the street, it's such a broad experience. I love interacting with it in my friends and my family and my community. Just being human is a pretty cool thing about what people mean to me. 

ACT: What is your take on the less admirable human behaviors? 

TW: I think that's an area where I could stand to grow a little bit, to be honest with you — my reaction to things that I don't see favorable. I tend to be fairly passive. That would be a critique of myself. If I see something that I don't particularly like, I know that I can be fairly passive. 

For example, just a moment ago I was walking down the street with my daughter. We live in this residential area in downtown Bend. There's no mistaking that it's a neighborhood and that it's downtown. But people tend to drive really quick. And this guy came around the corner in his Mustang and just immediately revved it and on a trajectory to be going really quick really fast right down this residential street. I couldn't quite make eye contact with him because of the windshield and the glare on it, but I looked right at him and I just said something to the effect of, Whoa, dude. and maybe a little bit of a hand motion — just like, Tone it down brother. This is my neighborhood, man. And I thought about that after that moment. That was maybe actually an appropriate way to encounter someone doing something that I think is outside the realm of normal or safe or wise or prudent. But maybe I could be doing more here. Not to say I should be aggressive to that guy — go up and beat on his door or throw a rock at him or anything — but how do I convey a message to this guy that may be more than just a slight waving of my hand? This really isn't okay; think about what you're doing. So, that's something I've been trying to work on is to find my voice and to use it for some benefit for me and my community. There's probably a day when I never would have motioned to that guy at all. I might have just been upset on the inside. So, I guess I'm glad I made some progress, but I still kinda feel like a softy there. 

ACT: My reactions are a bit more extreme, so you can just walk around town with me and take some notes. 

TW: I see that. Lots of people are more extreme. That's a good thing. It takes all types. I'm trying to work on that. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What gets under your skin and what about it is affecting you personally? 

TW: All sorts of things, man. I like to think I generally have a pretty positive outlook, but I do feel a certain baseline level of stress and sorrow and mourning about things. So let me see if I can pull out a few. One thing I think about a lot is the way that in our society — at least here in North America for someone of my age and of my background and of my privilege, basically — I'm concerned with how many choices we have. And how the world is your oyster is the common adage. And for most of my life I knew that to be true and I kind of thought that was a gift. And I think in many ways maybe it still is, but I think there's another side to that coin that everything is out there for the taking. I feel less obligated to do a lot of things. I don't feel particularly obliged... I don't feel a duty to certain things due to this overwhelming sea of choice that I have in front of me. And I think that's common among people of my age and my background and my privilege — being a younger, white, educated male. So, sometimes it seems like what that sea of choices turns into is it manifests in choices that maybe aren't serving you or the world. It can turn into a life of excess or addiction or rampant consumerism or action unbound to any spirituality or any tradition or any lineage. 

So, while I don't feel particularly wrecked by any of those things, I feel like it's affecting me none the less because sometimes it just feels like I'm humming along in this easily-accessible, low-hanging-fruit, opportunistic fashion. Like, This a super easy groove. I can be rather passive. No one's really attacking me emotionally or because of my education or color or religion or sex or sexual preferences or anything. So, I'm just on this steady path. And the choices that I'm left with are often times rather easy and fun ones. Do I want to take up skiing or windsurfing this year? They're things that don't carry a lot of weight or consequence and they don't really affect too many people beyond myself. 

And I feel like some people, just the nature of who they are, get forced into a more consequential way of being. They have to engage with serious stuff on the daily because of how they were born. I'm lucky, in a sense, that that's not me, but then it just sets me adrift on this easy path — this life of leisure. In a way, I'm lucky for it and I'm grateful. But I feel like now as I'm entering these middle years of my life, I'm interested in finding something with more purpose. Purpose hasn't found me and wasn't handed to me. That makes it sound like I'm a victim of my own reality, but I'm trying to find a way to be more essential. 

I do feel that many people are experiencing that and I think that that leads to a lot of what we see around us today. It manifests differently in different people. It might be some of that lostness or that lack of connection or that lack of accountability or that lack of tradition or respect — any number of things — that lack of something that people are having that might be leading to school shootings and toxic commercialism and toxic sexism and all sorts of stuff like that. That's the environment that I grew up in. Not calling foul on any of the people that raised me because that's the environment that was around and they were coming into, as well. That is the relatively sad side of our current situation. 

That's our society right now and there's a lot of opportunity there — in the freedom and in the choices. And, luckily, there's a lot of really beautiful people with open hearts trying really hard to point their energy and their intention in ways that are just. But there's also a lot of people that just don't think about it. And that's the general background noise, I think. That's the sprawl and the trash everywhere. And then there's the malignant side of it. This freedom, this choice, all this — it can go to a really extreme degree, as well. 

ACT: If community is our relationships to each other and the world we live in and given most people consider their relationships and that community to be the most important thing to them, why are we having such a difficult time treating each other with fairness and equity and compassion?

TW: Well, respectfully, have you interviewed any serious perpetrators? 

ACT: I've been waiting for a referral. 

TW: I don't really know. Maybe we're limited by our resources. There are just so many opportunities for ways to spend our time now. The people you've been interviewing — the ones I've listened to — they sound like pretty solid people that give a damn and that care. But they and you and me only have so much time and so much energy or so much resources — be that food or money or warm blankets or an extra jacket to give to the guy on the street. We only have so much. I guess that's kind of an easy answer... maybe a little bit of an excuse. Even though I feel like I only have so much, I look around and it's like, Wow, I actually kind of have a lot. And I feel very grateful for the things that I have. I don't know. Maybe dig a little deeper? Maybe the problem is, just for myself, that I'm not as forthcoming with the things that I have as I could be. I do wonder about that often times. 

There's a lot of people in this town that care and there's a lot of people that are activists and holders of the flag for change. I often times don't know how much I'm that person. Maybe I could do a little more in that sense. Growing into my role as a vector for change or as an activist — that could be a good place to put my energy. Sometimes I just feel tapped-out trying to keep... I'm busy with my job and my family. Maybe the problem is we're just so busy. What do you think? 

ACT: To go back to your question about whether or not I've interviewed any of those people? I don't think there's gonna be many people who are going to volunteer to come out and own their social faux pas. But I do think — and I don't have someone in mind — that there are people I've interviewed that are missing the mark in some capacity. I know I am. The more I learn, the more I realize that I'm contributing to things that are really negatively affecting the world in ways that I wouldn't have been able to imagine. For example, I've been learning about food and how some of my buying habits are keeping people in slavery. I'm not asking someone to own up to being a sex-trafficker. I'm asking for people to own up to our participating in life as it is being dictated to us versus really taking control and making thoughtful decisions on a daily basis. 

TW: That's a good point. And I think for you and me both it's important not to become paralyzed by the knowledge that you're not doing it perfect. Because you were born into this thing... this consumer, capitalist, colonial, patriarchal... you were born into that. And somewhere along the way something sparked something inside of you, presumably, as it did in me that made you interested in waking up and learning a little bit more. But it's a continuum. If I allow myself to become paralyzed by the overwhelming amount of stuff that I could be doing, what's the good in that? 

You brought up a lot of stuff... the food system. I think about all that stuff daily. And I hope other people do, too. For people to understand right now one thing they can do is be voting with their dollar. I'm a big proponent of that. Support the farmers and the growers and the distributors and the preparers and the grocers that do it in a way that you understand to be the most sustainable for the world. Try to source your clothing and the things around you in your home and your recreation in the same fashion. That's an area, in our home, we really try to do that. But again, like you said, it can be freaking overwhelming and it can drive you crazy. And I've felt that. I feel it regularly. But you kind of have to do the best you can and keep on learning and share. 

It's hard too, because there's so many people putting out information. So, who do you listen to? Who do you trust? Who do you give the precious time that your ears have — for maybe two hours a week total — to listen to a podcast or to do this or that? I've got a podcast myself. I try to put some helpful information out there for people. I think everybody would benefit from listening to it, but in reality, people already have their ears, hopefully, glued to something else worthwhile. I don't know. There's just a lot of information out there. It can be paralyzing. I've used that word quite a bit, but sometimes that's how it feels. Realizing that all that's a continuum and doing the best you can... I don't think we're gonna just suddenly wake up one day and be in some sort of utopia. We have to start somewhere. And each of one of us, hopefully, are. 

ACT: You keep saying things that I want to dig a little deeper on. I would say here in Bend, Oregon, more than any other place I've ever invested meaningful time in, I actually find that many people have created a utopia for themself. They credit it to their hard work or smart financial decisions or real estate accomplishments somewhere else and they are now living a life of relative wealth in a beautiful place so that they can feed their interest of recreation. And then the concerns of others who don't have those same advantages can easily be forgotten because they're in their groove. They're living their best life. 

I want to do better — to do better for my partner and for myself. I'd love to buy a home and not stress about the work I need to do on my car and eat delicious food and travel. But always on my mind is the fact that there is so much to do. There are so many really dire situations out there. And I really don't know what to do with it. This project is what I know to do. But like you said, people have other stuff to listen to. Even within attempts at doing better, we have so many choices. But I do wonder if the options we have are the right options or will be efficient or successful. 

TW: Do you have a thought as to why that is? 

ACT: I have lots of thoughts as to why. Our pursuit of money has built a culture of busyness and then manifests itself in this feeling of lacking. The voids that we have from our broken community/relationships will never be filled with a consumeristic effort or monetary gain, etc., but every person seems to need to learn that lesson. And every person's trajectory for that is different. Some will never. And some will perpetuate the opposite. But I can speak from my varied and exciting life that the best times I've ever had have been about relationship. We're very busy; we're out of touch with who we are, with our own personal growth; and we're seeking to right that in wrong ways. But that's so judgmental... 

TW: You're wondering about the problem from the perspective of someone immersed in the problem. So, the problem is all you know. And it's really all I know. I would give a lot of hope to indigenous peoples and the way the leaders among them are helping to preserve ancient and tried and true ways of living in harmony with the Earth. I'm talking about people that weren't ruled by money, that had a different kind of contract with one another as family members and community members. I think that we have a lot to learn from the survived and still intact indigenous communities. That's an area where I would love to learn more. But I feel like you have to be conscious of cultural appropriation and not just take someone's ideas and practice them as your own. I think there are situations out there where we can learn from people. I would like to be able to do more of that. 

What's worth doing? How do we fix this broken society? If I were to be an activist, I should be on the front lines at the Dakota pipeline and down in the Amazon 'cause that stuff is critically important. It's not their water rights; it's our water rights. It's not their Amazon; it's the freakin' Amazon, man. It needs to be protected and cared for. As does all this land. As does our continent... there's been a lot of environmental harm and a lot of poor farming practices — most of it driven by money. But we don't have to reinvent the wheel. And we're probably not gonna figure it out if we're looking around from the vantage point of a bunch of young, affluent white dudes trying to figure out how to solve the problem. The problems were probably were solved long ago — we just forgot the answers. 

ACT: You mentioned hope there. This is another question that I've reframed. I used to ask, 'What gives you hope for a better future?' But now I'm more interested in asking, 'Do you think we will accept responsibility and take action to create a better future?'

TW: I think so. And I think we're doing it right now, quite honestly. Even though you didn't ask your old question, I'll answer it anyway. What gives me hope is when you look around there are lots of people working hard at some angle and they're doing their best to preserve some old information. Maybe that is plant medicine — herbalists — or some sort of craft, like making clothes or shoes. There are people that are divesting in some form from this large, shitty system and doing things on a much smaller scale — a scale that's more appropriate and more sustainable and, quite frankly, more satisfying. And I see that and I'm so grateful to know a lot of those people. And I'm grateful that it's cool now to be doing all that stuff. And maybe this is one of the good things about social media — that people see that sort of thing, like farming or craft or cooking, gardening — they see their friends doing it and they're like, This is some cool stuff, man. I gotta get me some of that. And I feel like that is growing. And people that care — people that are more committed to local and sustainable economies and food systems — that has tremendous traction and it gives me hope. 

Regenerative agriculture is a newer concept to me. It's something I learned about [through] interviewing people for my podcast, which by the way, is called Modern Folk. That is where people should be putting their energy. I'm grateful for nutrition and health information. There's a lot of shit out there on the shelf in the grocery store and being pushed down our throats on commercials on television. But most of the people that I know are not buying that and they're not listening to it on the TV or on the radio. And that gives me hope. There's no shortage of horrible decisions that we could make. Some people are doing them all the time and they're rampantly making horrible decisions for their own bodies and their families and their communities. But we are at a pretty cool time where there are some good choices out there. It's an opportunity for us to engage with those good choices and to share some information. Don't eat that shit. There's nothing good gonna come of that in your own body on in the soil or in the atmosphere. It's a bad thing from start to finish. So, yeah, I do have a lot of hope. 

ACT: You mentioned a desire for purpose. Do you have an idea for where that desire to have a sense of purpose comes from? 

TW: I do. I think I've always been interested in doing better for myself and trying to be a better person. And, again, that's a continuum. I've know that and I've understood that for a long time. There's really a particular author that I've read that I would recommend to other people. It's a guy named Stephen Jenkinson... he writes on death and dying in his first book. And it really changed the way I understand a lot of things. And he highlighted a lot of things for me. A lot of my feelings about the world were formed from reading Stephen Jenkinson's books: Die Wise and then the other one is called Come of Age. And there's other authors as well. I would say that through my own exploration of the world, I've come across a couple ideas and people — Wendell Berry's another one — they just share ideas of both cynicism, but also sometimes a path forward. How can we be more engaged and how can we do better for our families or our community? How do we do our part? It's reading those authors, primarily, that launched me on that path of really wanting to understand and participate... the power of sharing information. 

Big thanks to Sheila Dunn for recommending Travis to participate here. I've actually known Travis for a year or so. We met through his wife, Emily, and I believe she initially wanted us to meet because of our sharing an interest in disseminating information via podcasts.

Becky Conner

I'd like to begin here by offering a tremendous thank you to Shanti O'Connor for connecting me to Becky. We came so close to missing this incredible conversation due to some electronic mail complications, but we managed to recover and I'd say we are all better for it — all, in this case, being you and me and Becky, too. I met Becky at her home in Sisters and she intercepted me outside as I approached her driveway. We immediately went for a short walk to the Wychus Creek, which winds it way through the trees at the end of her street. We talked at length on its bank and chatted about the creek and its eddies as a metaphor for life. 

I don't fully understand — or maybe it's just that I don't have the most efficient language for it — but there is an almost immediate connection when I meet certain people. And that connection allows for vulnerability and sincerity in a unique and rare way — a way that I don't witness all that often in my daily routines. Perhaps it's a recognition of openness or a spirit-to-spirit (whatever that means to you) vibration. I suppose we all may have different words for it. At any rate, whatever it is and whatever you call it, it was there with Becky. 

We carried our conversation back to her home and we sat in her kitchen over a cup of delicious and nourishing tea while we prepared to record. I am so happy to offer you that portion of our time together here, but I wish that you could have witnessed our entire exchange. It was full — full of sharing and learning and some laughing and crying. Times like this one continue to amaze me. This connection continues to inspire me. Our capacity for relationship and listening actually maybe be the only thing that inspires me. Our connection with another is the most powerful thing I've encountered and the joy I experience from any other thing doesn't come close to touching it. Thank you so much, Becky, from the bottom of my heart, for meeting me, seeing me, hearing me, and sharing with me. 

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BC: On a conventional level, I'm Becky Conner. I'm a somatic psychotherapist, a rolfer, a trauma-integration specialist — very connected to Earth-based spirituality and contemplative practices. And on a spiritual level, I'm none of that. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity right now? 

BC: My main concern is collective-field trauma. Growing up and then professionally and psychologically and spiritually, my whole life has been dedicated to trauma and unwinding trauma. I grew up in different countries in the world and different parts of the United States and grew up in a very traumatizing family unit. And then I've spent my whole life seeking forms and knowledges and systems and cultures to unwind trauma, both within myself and looking at social paradigms. 

Walking on this soil in Central Oregon — all the collective trauma of the Native Americans that have been decimated under our feet and the basic frozen encapsulation of that. And the trauma of inequality and denial. On one level, denial is a very important function, but on another level, we need to move through it. And I feel living in Central Oregon with the enormous level of inequality here and lack of understanding of why it is all white — the racist history of Bend, the racist history of Oregon. There are people alive today in Warm Springs that were taken from their families and put in schools and had their hair cut and had their language stripped from them and raped — that's just in recent times. So, I just feel like all of that needs to be addressed in compassionate containers, but [without being] afraid to face all the shadow emotions as well as the download of the collective wisdom that holds us. So, I'm very passionate. It's my vocation. Everything about me is towards that and for that, both within me and around me. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of why or where that came from — how that became such a part of you? 

BC: Yeah, just surviving in my family of origin from the get-go. And then growing up in all different cultures at the same time experiencing my family's total abusive craziness, basically. And they were fed with the understanding of their paradigm of increasing wealth. It was fed by a lot of different things, but it's also tied in with the birth of this country and their family lineages and what was expected of their family lineages — my heritage — to take over this country. Land grab at the expense of people that still translates in terms of money and growth at the expense of people and human dignity. But I had also the good fortune of living and breathing in Asia — growing up through that and different parts of this country, like in the South when Martin Luther King was shot. I got to go to school during integration, during the riots, so I felt my little nervous system as a kid was wired also to observing the social, feeling the social trauma. Then being in Asia while Cambodia was being carpet-bombed by me, by my American roots. Being in that field growing up. So, I was born into it, I guess. 

ACT: What do you people mean to you? 

BC: You, sitting here — if you don't mind I'm going to actually join our bodies [here Becky reaches her foot to touch mine] — and us being able to speak at this level is grounding. And I don't feel alone and I don't feel as isolated. And the honor that you can actually feel what I'm feeling is neurologically the we — the neurobiology of we. Our nervous systems are sharing this moment, speaking, and these fractions of belonging that have occurred through us and our humanity. You, as a human that I have just met, are holding together... we are holding these difficult subjects. I couldn't do it without you in this moment. But it's also that you're so available. Your eyes are soft. You're feeling the collective pain. And this vulnerability is what it takes to unwind the fractures. If we can do this for each other a lot more it will begin to open these hard shells that have wounded our sense of belonging. And we can really create true belonging. 

ACT: I've defined community as our relationships to one another and the world we live in. And most people I speak with place their relationships as paramount. Considering that, why are we struggling so much with equality, equity, racism, the phobias, greed, selfishness, etc.?

BC: Community is not just people-centered. It's also non-people, like the air, the trees, the food, our ancestors' voices, all the beings that have gone before us, the beings that haven't yet — both human and non-human, plant and animal. This is the community. And I feel that sometimes when we're so wrapped in fear — we don't know it's fear, but there's an emptiness inside — there's a grasping into another human that just sort of placates that anxiety. In one way, yeah, I feel better that I'm joined in with all these humans and we're experiencing community. But there's also a longing for a deeper connection in which life comes from and informs us. And I feel like there's a lot of fear in people to acknowledge the full depth and breadth of what we are actually related to. Because it would mean surrendering our rational understandings and our control. And there might be painful things that emerge. 

I've lived in intentional communities. I've been been a big part of communities. But I also feel like the reciprocity of contemplative, intimate connection with the non-human community can inform a deeper part of our soul that then can come on back out into the people relationship and kind of notch it up a bit — notch up the level of consciousness a bit. So that we're not just spiraling on the same frequency of basically anxiety and fear and and then reaching out and grabbing for another to help. That's a good thing — to reach out for another to help us — but I just feel like there's a demand for the next level of consciousness to emerge. And I think part of that is availing our nervous systems to be informed by, like the Native people would say, all of our relations — whether it's past, present, or future, animal, human, or ancestor. We're in a field; we're in a stream — that's available to us. That's community. 

ACT: Instead of hoping for a better future, do you think we will accept responsibility and take the necessary actions to work for a better future? 

BC: I had the good opportunity to practice with the Dalai Lama for a while. And I've heard other spiritual teachers at Spirit Rock also say this in the Buddhist contemplative practice. I've also heard people in the Catholic contemplative practice — the mystics; all religions have a mystical branch. And I've heard different people say that it only takes fifteen percent of a population group to transform, to send that yeast — that fermentation — through the whole collective. I personally can't imagine a hundred percent of the population taking responsibility for inner work — which I think is necessary for transformation to occur — but there's a part of me that might think maybe there's fifteen percent around the world, especially now with the internet and the dire straits upon us — the pressure. It's almost like the birthing pressure and there might be fifteen percent that would be willing to take a deep dive. 

But I am encouraged by people like Charles Eisenstein that are willing to speak against this stream and Thomas Hübl and others that are speaking against the stream and presenting new paradigms of economy and livelihood. So, they give me hope. My teacher and Jared's teacher, Thomas Hübl, also says that we are walking forever. Each one of us here on this planet also has the knowledge of all beings that have ever lived — animal and plant and marine and human. That's a lot of life force that's encoded in our DNA. So, we have all that wisdom and knowledge and all those breaths that have been breathed and exhaled in us. And if we're walking forever, even if this paradigm changes drastically, I do tend to align with Thomas Hübl in thinking that it is a forever commitment. So, what we do even in a conscious sipping of a tea has a hologram effect. For me, it's about invoking wholeness and mind/body synchronicity. And for me, it's a lot of healing my felt-sense trauma and my felt-sense trauma of the collective by actually going through the process of feeling the pain, feeling the anger, feeling the neurological contractions change, bearing witness to other people in their transformation and their courage to face the shadow and the light. 

ACT: Fifteen percent is like a billion people. 

BC: Maybe it's ten (big laugh).

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

BC: Yeah, my purpose for unwinding trauma — my own and collective — is to be so available to the streaming of the divine. It's not that it's not happening with the trauma in there, it's just that I'd be able to perceive it a lot clearer. I just want to be be this big being of light and love and compassion and able to be with people. So that my container is so big because I've faced myself so strongly that I could be that in the presence of the situation — whatever presents itself. I'd say that is my purpose in a way — being totally infused with the incarnation of the divine. That I can incarnate it within me. It already is here, but in a big way. 

ACT: As we talked before, we are able to identify areas that could use some improvement in our culture, society, humanity, and in ourselves. I've been thinking a lot about the idea of awareness and raising awareness. But I get lost with what to do with the judgment. Do you have any thoughts on that? 

BC: It's a big struggle in my life. We were speaking earlier about the process of metabolizing. I see emotions as calories — like food calories — and we have to digest them. And we digest them a lot in our stomach. I feel, for me, when a judgment arises — say it's anger or sadness or helplessness or righteousness, all of these things — when I am not fully digesting those within myself, usually I pop it back up into mental and then it becomes blame and pointing. And I feel like it's very important to point out injustices. It's not about suppressing the voice. My problem, currently, is softening my anger around blame and judgment so that I can express it in a way that can be received and also not couch everything in the history of where it's come from and why these things are the way they are now. 

I really love Ta-Nehisi Coates and I respect that before he even utters something out in public he spends years researching the facts so that he has the history under his belt. In my view, he's just not coming from his own personal injury, which is huge, but he has the facts behind him that are historical. So that it can actually be fed to the bigger field. And I feel like that's why I'm holding back my voice because I haven't fully digested my own anger and rage. And that comes down to a hologram of my own personal family or origin or being a woman in society or what we were talking about earlier — the injustice of the economics in Bend and the prices of living and jobs, for the people who work here, that don't meet the balance. So, what do you do with that? I'm in the middle of that vortex. 

There's also a fear in me to speak out, to point the uncomfortable things out, is a recipe for annihilation and death and isolation and persecution 'cause that also is shown in history that that is true. But at the same time, I feel like we're never gonna proceed forward, both individually and collectively, if we pretend like everything's okay. Systems are broken and we need a global overhaul if we're gonna be able to live as a planet. 

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

BC: I really appreciate you, Joshua. I feel that you're doing amazing, heroic work stimulated from an inner impulse. And I feel like isolation is one of the tragedies of our community and you're breaking that. And also you're coming to people. So, it's a humble and amazing thing you're doing and I hope that in your future that much gratitude and abundance comes back to you 'cause you're reweaving the spider web, the dreamcatcher; you're reweaving the broken fragments by doing this. And it's not not noticed. 

I'd like to begin here by offering a tremendous thank you to Shanti O'Connor for connecting me to Becky. We came so close to missing this incredible conversation due to some electronic mail complications, but we managed to recover and I'd say we are all better for it - all, in this case, being you and me and Becky, too.

Sheila Dunn

I've known Sheila casually for a couple of years now and several people have mentioned her name as a potential participant here, but nobody ever officially referred her until now. And I owe a big thank you to Jason Chinchen for finally being the responsible party. Sheila and I sat in her studio and chatted over a cup of matcha about many of the things on our minds. This interview is conversational and relaxed due to our already knowing one another and — spoiler alert — it doesn't offer much by way of figuring it all out or solving the world's problems, but it is yet another example of a couple of concerned individuals talking about what might be best. And I tend to think that the more we thoughtfully engage with one another, the better our chances will be of making some progress. Sheila's a dedicated and skilled painter who is making quite a name for herself, but I'd be willing to bet that her success is due just as much to her intention and heart as it is to her talent and work ethic. 

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SD: I would say I'm, first and foremost, a creative. I think most of my life is molded around that. I would describe myself as pretty goofy, actually, which I think is a surprise for a lot of people on the outside looking in. I would say I'm pretty passionate about the things I care about, so I can come across as pretty serious. And I am in certain ways, but I'm pretty goofy and fun-loving. I'm a painter, an artist, but I would say more broadly, a creative. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? 

SD: So, this is a lot of what drives my art. I think about this a lot. It's hard not to get completely overwhelmed because there are so many concerns. I would say probably the biggest for me is environmental — climate change, disappearing of these wild places. That's a big reason why I'm in Bend. Wild places inform so much of who I am and I just can see them changing and disappearing. And hopefully not in an irreparable way, but sometimes it feels that way. 

A few years ago with my art I was thinking, Painting is important; art is vital, but how can I contribute in an actual way? So I started a Conservation Series shortly after the election because I was just feeling distraught. There are people dedicating their lives and careers to figuring out these solutions, so I can fiscally donate a portion of my print sales to support these groups and organizations and people. I also started a Resistance Series, where I donate a portion of portrait sales to the ACLU because of course there are social justice atrocities and nightmares right now, too. But I think that environmental/climate change feels like we gotta act fast. 

ACT: We can hope for a better future and change, but it's up to us to decide. Will we accept responsibility and take the necessary action to work toward a better future? 

SD: I would highly recommend this podcast interview — it was on Rich Roll and he interviewed this guy Zach Bush, who's an MD but he's gotten really into regenerative farming practices and looking at how environmental problems are affecting human health. It's so dire right now. It depends on the day you ask me how I'm feeling about it, but I think there is opportunity in how close we are or how dire it is. There can be this radical transformation in those times. Whether that's through science — this lifting of consciousness... My most honest answer is I don't know, but I'm not hopeless about it. When I look at the younger generation of these young climate activists and stuff, I hold a lot of hope and inspiration in that. I'm not hopeless, but I think it's a very strange time to be living. 

ACT: What do you other people mean to you? The people that you encounter in your daily routines and the people that are interested in your art and the people that you've never met but are aware of in Nepal, for example? 

SD: Oh, gosh. Circling back to what I just stated, it's a really interesting and kind of hard time to exist within right now — I think people and those connections are what make it doable and beautiful and significant. I draw so much meaning through that and, again, a lot of my work is informed by that. Capturing both people I am intimately involved with — whether it's family, friends, close connections — but then also when I have the opportunity to paint strangers, I spend hours and hours with them. Even though I don't know them, it's almost forming some kind of connection. I think a lot of my work explores that shared humanity and what it is to be on this human journey. 

I'll just say, I lost my dad. It's been a little over a month. I lost him rather unexpectedly. So it's been a brutal summer in many ways. In such a dark collective time, how people have shown up for my family and me has been amazing and so beautiful and it's just been this reminder that goodness is what is most true in the world and what comes through more than anything when all is said and done. And through this rather horrific experience of losing my dad, it's been a beautiful reminder of human connection and what that means. 

ACT: Most, if not all, people I've ever spoken with place relationships as paramount to everything else. And I've defined community as those relationships with each other and the world we live in. So, according to my definition, everybody thinks community is the most important thing. With that said, why are we struggling so hard to show that? Why do have this President? Why are people still enslaved? Why is there racism? Why is there pay inequality? And homophobia? And sex-trafficking? Why are we destroying the planet? Why is there genocide? And rape? How do you make peace with that? 

SD: I don't know how you reconcile that. One thing that was pretty illuminating for me — I think it was in Brené Brown's book Braving the Wilderness — and she said, People are hard to hate close up. I think we live in this time — I'm guilty of this, for sure — of thinking in terms of other. That I can't relate to this person because how could they have voted for Donald Trump? We have nothing in common. Time and time again — I'll still be a little horrified to find out that someone's voted for him — but we have this shard humanity. I don't know how to change it, but I think sometimes taking a different lens... we can find a shared humanity and it's especially import in people maybe we don't think we could find that. That's been something I've been trying to think about and observe within myself — What kind of wall am I maybe putting up without even realizing it? I don't know if it's just part of human existence since the beginning of time...? I don't know who said it, but every generation thinks there's will be the last. I don't know if it just comes with the territory. 

Sometimes I'm like, How are we still here?! But then in other ways, it does feel like we're progressing. That is an almost impossible thing to answer for me. I don't know. But I've just tried to look at my own biases and how I am maybe unknowingly at times adding to the divisiveness. I want your opinion on all of this. 

ACT: What I have to say kind of comes out in these questions, but I'll say this. I think it's really cool that we've had these spokespeople — these models for change in individual areas. I'm definitely not trying to knock their efforts. But... it seems to me like we are missing a focus on the root of the issues. I don't know how much of this has to do with perspective or focus or the lens through which I am looking at the world. We can educate each other on many issues, both social and environmental, but it's unlikely that we can learn all the things. Even as I try very hard to educate myself and make the changes I can with my means, I am keenly aware that I am screwing things up every day in some way that I don't see. I'm looking for us to start getting to the root, where thoughtfulness or a consideration of what our actions might mean becomes more of the centerpiece of our life. Not so much whether I'm doing the right thing in one regard, but whether or not I'm trying to the right thing in all regards. Maybe that's overwhelming. Maybe that's why it hasn't caught on. Maybe we need to focus on the one thing so that we can feel as though we are making our little dent. I'm not sure what my greater concern is: the failing state of our environment and the inevitable destruction of our planet or the mistreatment of other human beings. 

SD: In a way, I think it comes back to that human connection. And that is what is missing in a lot of this, right? That's probably the root of a lot of what's going wrong right now. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? Or a compulsion that you have a hard time explaining? 

SD: Yeah. Creativity and creating and making art is something... I have to do it. I just can't imagine not. It's like this thing in my body that has to get out. That's just something inherent in me. And it's how I make sense of the world. My voice is through my paintings. That piece is not even learned; it's just kind of in me. But I think where I've connected it with my value systems is deciding to use my art as activism, in a way — through the Conservation and Resistance series. The main purpose is creating, but it's with that focus on thinking of it on a more global scale. Yes, it's little. But how can my artwork have a wider-reaching impact than just a woman sitting alone in her studio, painting? 

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

SD: I could talk about this stuff all day. It's so bleak to talk about all this, but I think there's this movement of anti-intellectualism and this kind of embraced ignorance. But I think people get overwhelmed because there's so much. And it's easy to just binge on Netflix because I don't want to think about all this shit. But I think what's so important is — it doesn't have to be monetary — it's just find ways of human connection. What can you do... can you make eye contact with someone? Coming back to my dad, the overarching theme with him when people were writing us letters was that he valued human connection more than anyone I've met. I know that's a bold statement, but it's true. And people said that over and over and over. When my dad was talking to you, you were the only person in the universe. He was so engaged in that way. So, even if it's just that — to the gas attendant or the checkout clerk. Even if it's just allowing space for that. It's just important to not give up hope entirely. And there are things every day that can be contributing to a better place to be. I think the worst thing that could happen is because we feel so overwhelmed, we don't do anything. 

ACT: I've got one more for you. There's a big emphasis on happiness and joy and fun. We have this idea that a smile on your face means that things are okay. But I'm more of the mind that we are all carrying smiles on our faces while we are burning alive. And I'm struggling with that in my life — to understand how much is enough. How much effort is enough? How much work is enough? How many questions are enough? How much thought is enough to put into my buying and spending habits? How much of my value system changes when I am personally affected by it? I struggle with this focus on fun and taking it easy and lightening up. I like to have fun. It's exhilarating to do the things that I enjoy. It does lighten my mood or distract me from the chaos, but I'm also aware that while I was doing that things have gotten worse. 

SD: I don't know either. I grapple with that same thing. I'm gonna butcher another quote, but E.B. White said, Every morning I awake deciding to save the world or savor it. And it makes planning the day complicated. But if we don't take time to savor it, what is there to save? Not that savoring means this overconsumption. But I can relate to that sentiment of sometimes waking up and feeling the weight of everything so heavily that it's kind of like, What's the point of it all? And god, Bend, Oregon, is a bubble of alternate reality play time. There is a lot of incredible things happening here, but we live in an alternate universe here in that way. I partake in it! It's a big reason why I'm here. I love what this land has to offer... and I hate even saying those words. I guess I can just say I feel you and I think about those same things. I'm not that concerned with happiness. I think happiness can be surface level and I've always been a deep feeler in every direction. Sadness and grief — those don't scare me. There's so much to be sad about and grieving that I don't want that to be the framework of my existence here either. Hell, I don't know. I guess I can just say I struggle with that, too. I want kids or a child at some point, but that feels like the most selfish decision on the planet! You know? It's a weird time. 

I've known Sheila casually for a couple of years now and several people have mentioned her name as a potential participant here, but nobody ever officially referred her until now. And I owe a big thank you to Jason Chinchen for finally being the responsible party.

Will Blount

Laura Grayson referred Will to participate here several months ago and at that time Will asked me to reach out to him again "after September", when his schedule might afford him a little extra time. And so I did and he was kind enough to put me on the calendar. We met in a conference room at the Ruffwear and Embark headquarters, where Will serves as the President. This was actually our second meeting — our first being a couple of weeks earlier to chat about another photography project — so I had some idea of what chatting with Will was like and, because of that first interaction, I was really looking forward to this conversation. True to the one form I have come to understand of him, Will chatted with me with patience and attentiveness and offered his perspective on the subjects below with care and sincerity. To say I enjoyed taking with Will would be a severe understatement. Something about the way he says it makes what he has to say resonate with me. I am so grateful to have had this conversation with him face to face and it's an honor to share it with you here. 

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WB: My name is Will Blount. I'm a 46-year-old man that happens to be a son, a father, a brother, a husband. But those are ultimately just different roles that I've played and I'm realizing that I'm really a multi-dimensional person that I'm still getting to know — getting to look inside and learn. And I recognize I'm evolving, as well. That's exciting for me. I sometimes consider myself a navigator. I like the analogy of being on a river and helping people find the line so that they don't get flipped in a hole or eddied out into a rock. I'm inspired my movement, this idea of flow of energy, and staying in the current. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity — our interactions with each other — in a way that affects you personally? And what motivates or inspires you to do something about it? 

WB: I recently heard this saying from a tribal elder — Mankind has to come too far. And I think it's around this idea that we have been so innovative that we've lost our connection to nature. We've lost our connection to ourself. And so, recognizing that while we might have had positive intentions, we have exceeded our capacity to stay connected to those around us and to ourselves. And I think it plays out a lot... if you look at the environment, for one. That's hard for me to see what we're doing to our living planet — our home, our mother. We need to just take a breath and recognize, Where is this serving us? Where do we use this great creative gift that we have of intelligence? And use that to mimic what is happening in the form of nature around us. If we're gonna progress and evolve, that's the best thing to follow. We look at how these systems are really integrated to support a healthy ecosystem. 

What inspires me is also some of what we are learning as well as biomimicry, as a way to be more efficient in capturing light into a building. My children inspire me. I look at my generation — I grew up with parents that were from the South — Birmingham, Alabama. I look at my grandfather and my father and my generation — we're way less racist as a generational family. My children have it figured out. They're much more open and accepting of others. I go back two generations and I don't think that was the case. So, I see a lot of good happening. I think that even in the last 50 years there's been a lot of amazing progress.

I had the privilege to float on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River in Idaho last summer. We were celebrating the 50th year of the Wild and Scenic River Act. It's this remote place where wildlife is thriving. You'd be sitting on, what you call on the river the groover, which is an outdoor toilet — on a bucket — and you look down river and you see bald eagles flying up the river way and river otters playing and dancing. So, I see a lot of really amazing things and that inspires me to want to be a better person, as well. 

ACT: This idea of coming too far or losing touch conjures up feelings of judgment in me about productivity and the pursuit of money and the accumulation of material objects. How do you reconcile that while maintaining inspiration and that good faith and hope? 

WB: It's been a journey for me to try to really get clear why it is I do what I do. Early in my work career, I was very motivated to help build and grow a company that would be turned around and sold. The selling of the organization would be the accomplishment, right? It was validated by someone else willing to buy it and put their money behind it. And today, fast forward 18 years later, that doesn't inspire me. That doesn't motivate me. What wakes me up early and motivates me to stay up late is the people that are coming to work every day to help contribute to a common goal. And they're doing it with their own unique talents and abilities. And they're thriving and they're growing. The tribe is stronger than the individual ego that once was for me. That's super rewarding. Getting clear of why I do what I do and recognizing, yeah, there's a certain amount of money that I need to afford a lifestyle I've become accustomed to, but that's not why I do it anymore. I don't need that validation from an external source. It's really now, for me, coming from within. 

ACT: We all might be better off if we could adopt that. I struggle with the idea of wanting the same for myself or others wanting the same for what they do, but being trapped in a cycle that is perpetuating a frantic pace of having to keep up or lose. For some it might be very real — keep up or lose your job or lose your marriage. I want to believe that it's a choice and you can decide to opt out of it, but sometimes it feels like we are really just stuck. It feels very complicated. And sometimes I wonder if only a few people get to decide. 

WB: I don't think we can escape the human experience. And I think it's a shared experience. There's this great quote by Wavy Gravy — We're all just bozos on the bus, so we might as well sit back and enjoy the ride. We're all going through it one form, shape, or the other. I think that's where being able to recognize that what might be happening for someone that has a million dollars in the bank account or a hundred million or a billion isn't that much different at the end of the day from someone that might not. They're still going through the challenges. 

I am fortunate and I recognize I have a lot of privilege in my life. I was born healthy. I'm a white man. I'm six foot two. I've got all these advantages that other people didn't necessarily have. Recognizing that is part of my role to ensure that I honor that. I can use those benefits to perhaps help others in a way where they weren't fortunate to have the same set of situations. Ultimately, though, fear is a powerful force and I think that it gets used and abused in ways that create a narrative in our own lives that is really quite separate from who we really are at the end of the day. And we can get caught up in it so easily. There's really wonderful people that have done a lot of bad things because they just get caught up in that. And I'm no exception to that. And being able to stop and reflect on that helps me recognize that I have more work to do — and that it's my work; it's not something that is going to be done for me. And that's also exciting because it gives me a sense of ownership and control and power that I have the ability to create a new situation, a new environment, and I can do it with somewhat unplugging from what we hear, what we see, what we're fed through various news outlets and stories that really pull us way from who we really are. So, for me it's really, once again, getting more familiar with myself and recognizing, Who is the authentic Will and what do I need to be doing to make sure that my voice is being heard in a way that aligns with that authenticity? 

ACT: What do other people mean to you?

WB: I'm learning that other people really are a mirror. Right? They provide a reflection back to me. And so, it's this opportunity to learn something. I've been very fortunate to have a loving family and parents and two amazing children and a wife that help me recognize my beauty, my gifts, but also help me recognize when I'm out of alignment with that. People are an opportunity for this self reflection — to learn and grow, get to know  myself better. I'm learning that when I'm triggered by someone, it's something that is triggered within myself. I'm now stopping to take a moment and go, What is really going on there for me? It's not you; it's me. How do I change that, turn it within, and show up in a way that isn't based on this limbic fight, flight, or freeze syndrome that we all come from? We are basically descendants of the most paranoid people of Earth. You look at our ancestors and those that didn't run at the slightest sound were eaten by a lion or killed by something. We've got that built into our genetic biology that that's the way we need to show up. But nowadays, walking down the street, we're not gonna be mauled by a bear, necessarily. It's this opportunity to connect and learn more about myself. And I get to be amazed at what they're creating themselves; we're co-creating this together. They're partners in this manifestation of our bliss, our aliveness. And we get to ride that wave together through the peaks and the troughs — the joys and the hardships. And I share that with them. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with one another and the world we live in and if it's those relationships that matter most to people, why are we having such a difficult time getting along and considering everybody's needs? I see so much pain and I feel so much pain and I cause so much pain but I just don't understand why. Do you have thoughts on that? 

WB: I think for the most part we're asleep. We're so caught up in everything around us. The speed at which information and the amount of information that is being streamed into our lives every millisecond of every moment is overwhelming us. Our internal circuitry wasn't designed for the rate at which we're getting this and we're starting to shut down. We're starting to fall asleep because we're overwhelmed. Overload — it's like the computer; it needs more processing power. When we start to awaken and we start to be very careful with the type of information we let in, the type of people that we hang out with, the choices that we make around substance abuse to further numb us, to further keep us in that sleep state, causing us to feel disconnected from ourselves. The separation that we have with our living planet — Pachamama, Mother Earth — makes us feel disconnected. That's a real root cause. When we are disconnected, we start to lash out because we're not balanced; we're not grounded. We're this frenetic energy. It's like trying to play an instrument that's out of tune. We're out of tune as a society, as members within the society. 

And there's also some amazing examples of cultures and communities that don't feel that way. In the advancement of technology for the pursuit of who knows what, we've lost our way. We've fallen asleep and disconnected from ourselves in the process. And I think that gets projected outwards. We don't see the world the way it is; we see the way we project into it. And if we don't know what's going on within, we don't know what's going on. And that's where disagreements and anger and hatred and fear get generated. How can you be at peace with another if you're not at peace with yourself? How can you love another if you don't love yourself? It's just impossible. You can't do it.  

ACT: I used to ask here about hope for a better future, but now I'm more into this idea that a better future is about accepting responsibility and doing the work. Will we do that? Or will we continue on this path that seems to be heading towards devastation? 

WB: I'll go back to this idea that you started with — that is the word hope itself. This idea of hope is really saying that things should be different than they already are. And that in itself creates separation. That creates a lot of judgment — externally, but as I have come to believe, it's really internal judgment. That doesn't mean that you don't wish for or work towards changing things in a way that creates a higher vibration amongst the community and society. I really think the question is, How does change start to occur? And for me, once again, it gets pointed back inwards. If I can really be in the present and I can be okay with everything as it is in this moment, that's the first step. Because that's the way it is. There's no changing that. 

There's no fighting the reality of the present moment. Everything in the past has happened. Everything in the future is yet to come. So, let's drop this angst and frustration that things need to change because they're not. They're the way they are. That's okay. Now, if I can recognize that, I can be in your company without all of these preconceived ideas of how this interview should be different, then we can get somewhere. We can really talk. And I can understand what's going on for you. You can understand what's going on for me. And that's where I think we find common ground. We're always making stories up to try to fill in our narrative because we've got to operate from this place where we think we know what's going on. When the reality is we probably don't. 

There is a part of me that still really wants to believe things need to be different. Being a parent has such incredible lessons. I've got a teenager now. And I worry that sometimes as a teenager she's making decisions for herself that aren't gonna serve her. And so when I experience a situation as a parent, I can come at it from two different ways: you did this wrong or this is just part of her ongoing learning journey. And it's recognizing that she is where she needs to be and that's perfect in itself. And I'm there to provide the support that she needs when those times align for her. But I can't force her to change. I can only change myself and I believe that gets reflected back into her. 

I agree with you that there are opportunities for us to do better as these really powerful manifestors of what we're creating around us. But how that happens is the distinction for me. I really believe it's all internal. If you can change yourself and everything is in some way, shape, or form connected, you're gonna change a lot of things. If I can change myself, I'm gonna change, but I can't change you and you can't change me. And so, for me to get frustrated about what you're doing doesn't do anything; it just makes you probably feel worse and you want to push back. The harder you push into something, the harder it pushes back. It seems like this universal law of balance. And so, let's figure out a different way to go about creating change. And I think that starts within. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

WB: Not one sense of purpose. I have things that make me feel more alive as an individual. And I am learning how to tune into those signals and follow all of that — those lessons that are within. My sense of purpose, in a way, is to continue to be more in tune with myself as an individual and to learn how to follow my bliss and create things that seem to awaken that powerful person within. 

I've been doing a lot of reading and exploring different religions and spiritual practices and what's fascinating is if you go back thousands of years and you look at these different mythologies that cultures across the planet have — this is at a time when there's no modern technology, there's no modern communication between these people — you find very similar themes, very similar story lines. It might be Jesus or it might be the Buddha or what have you, but ultimately they're saying the same thing. And I believe that is coming from this idea of one — we're all part of broader consciousness that is more connected than it is separate. I think that that sense is shared within all of us. If we can be still and silent enough to listen, I think that it comes within. I think that's true for all of us. We're just not necessarily listening to that; we're listening to the external environment and that clouds our own understanding of what's happening within ourselves. 

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

WB: I just want to thank you for doing this work. Your motivation and your drive to approach something outside of some kind of financial reward is an honor to witness. The conversations we've had, while still brief, give me hope that we still have the ability to communicate and connect as individuals. It's inspiring me to want to figure out how to put aside the mile-long to-do list and sit down with a colleague and really get to know them — What are they thinking? What are they coming from? It's an inspiration. 

Laura Grayson referred Will to participate here several months ago and at that time Will asked me to reach out to him again "after September", when his schedule might afford him a little extra time. And so I did and he was kind enough to put me on the calendar.

Krayna Castelbaum

Skye Kimel referred Krayna to participate here. It turns out that Krayna and I live nearby each other, so it was a treat to go to a home I have passed by several times and meet and chat with the resident there. Krayna met me with a big smile and promptly served me up a cup of hot tea and some bites of dark chocolate and a tour of her home. We sat on her sofa together and chatted about this and that until it seemed as though me might talk about everything before we even started recording. Then we dove in. 

The following conversation is fairly weighty and existential. Our time together was very warm and sensitive and full of emotion and I am sure you will notice that as you read or listen below. If you are at all inclined to listen, I highly recommend it, as I've chosen to not transcribe in detail every conversational rabbit hole. It's also worth the listen just to hear Krayna laugh at some of my questions. Her's is a kind laugh and one that set the tone for our time together. It's a great pleasure to introduce Krayna to you here. Keep your eyes out for her as she will undoubtedly shine some light on you and your day should you encounter her. You can also be in touch with her through her website.  

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KC: Who am I? I ask myself that question every day. That is a question I find difficult to answer, to be honest. Who I am and what my roles are not necessarily the same thing. I'm in roles all the time. I have role relationships. We're in a role relationship right now. But I'm not my role. So, I ask myself all the time, Who are you? What is this? I don't know. The best thing I can say about it right now is that I feel like a self is a kind of kaleidoscopic experience of moving elements. I look for a core self and can't find it. So, I don't know. I'm a walking kaleidoscope. I do describe myself, however, often times as either a poetry instigator or a creative instigator. I do describe myself in terms of some of the things I do, but I can't really say this is what I am. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally about how things are?

KC: Oy. These are mega questions. It is disturbing to witness the unbelievable degree of corruption that is happening — not just in the United States, but around the globe. I have goosebumps right now and people can't see me, but I'm tearing up. It's such a deep ache. The thought of how many public leaders — politicians — have completely lost, if they ever even had, a sense of being a servant for the public. And I mean that word servant in the best possible sense of the word. And how power and all the things power seems to imply for people take priority over the things that matter. Love. It's sounds corny or hokey, but it's true. Love, relational life. I guess I feel a grief or sadness over the degree of ignorance about that among people who are in spheres of influence... and the symptoms of that. 

ACT: Do you feel incapacitated by that or is there something that it motivates you to do? 

KC: Oh, I don't feel incapacitated by it. I really think of the whole world as a kaleidoscopic experience, really. Nothing’s here, even though it looks like it is. In my own contemplations and investigations, I can see things are not solid the way I think they are. And nothing exists here independently. 

This is another avenue, but the whole idea that there is no such thing as inherent existence for anything or anybody because everything is rising co-dependently. It helps me to realize it's not a spiritual bypass — I know what that's like; I've done that — it's not a rationalization; it's just a way of... slow[ing] down. Nothing is what it looks like it is. There's something about that that is helpful to me. 

The other thing that makes a difference for me is the use of the creative impulse. Charles Bukowski was a poet — hard edge, very unique kind of guy — a lot of people have tried to imitate him and it's really unfortunate. I think they'd be better off just stealing from him than imitating him, which is another famous idea I can't claim. He said, The thing that matters most is how you work through the fire. So, for me, that sense of grief or anger that can be evoked is something I find ways to work, so that that fire can be refined; the tears can be refined; so I can move with some measure of intelligence and integrity best I can. Like everyone else, I'm doing the best I can. But it matters to me that I pay attention to the body politic and how I interact with that and interact with people about it. 

Some fires have to burn very hot and fiercely before they get tempered. I think the #MeToo movement's an example of that. The rage behind that — the outrage behind that — makes all the sense in the world. So, it's usable energy. I don't know; I'm kind of talking to myself when I say that. I use visual art; I use poetry; I read poetry and other things; I read a lot; I walk; I don't listen to the news all the time. I take significant breaks from it so that I can kind of just let my system recalibrate; not only from the nature of the news, but also the manic pace of our collective. It's nuts. And I don't function well in it. And frankly, neither does anybody else. You know? The question of How do I bring as much compassion in any given moment to bear upon this particular moment? is an orienting thing for me. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

KC: I don't know! Give me a moment; let me think about that. Well, I love people. I love animals. I love trees. And I love reptiles. I love old barns. I love the way a shaft of light falls across the floor. I mean, I don't think I separate people out from all that. I think humankind is endlessly fascinating and varied and contradictory and awful and wonderful and insane and brilliant. Remember what I said about the kaleidoscope? I don't like the things a lot of people do, necessarily, but I do love people as much as I love this — this moment, being here with you. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in and if the vast majority of people consider their relationships to be paramount to everything else in life, why are we having such a difficult time considering those relationships? If relationships are what matter, why don't we take care of them? 

KC: I can only humbly submit what I perceive in this moment, but I don't know. That's a huge question. I don't think of myself as an expert on it or a master of it; that's my little disclaimer. That I'm even being asked all these questions by you is kind of amazing to me because I'm thinking, What do I know? But we're here together, so this is kind of cool. Why don't we take care of relationships? 

There are a number of ways to think about this. There's the psychological dimension. If we're looking at this question like a jewel with many facets, that's one facet. And there are many facets within that facet. And then there's the whole business of being an animal body — neurobiology. And then there's this whole other dimension — I'm reluctant to use this word — what I will just roughly call the more spiritual orientation. From the point of view of the autonomic nervous system, which has sympathetic/parasympathetic dimensions or branches, we as a species are fairly dis-regulated a lot of the time. The fight/flight/freeze response is connected to the reptilian brain — the oldest part of the brain; the brain stem. That nature of the reptilian brain... and no offense to reptiles... the symptoms of that include suspicion, distrust, fear; it's pure perception of threat and the pure desire to thwart that threat or survive it. People can see this in themselves if they stop long enough to ask, How's it going right now? The minute that threat response is initiated, no one's qualified to have a conversation.  People become, of course, self-protective and defensive and highly reactive. And on that continuum — emotional, physical, sexual, psychological... the spectrum of violence to murder — at the low end, it's huffing/puffing, maybe mild criticism; as it goes up the spectrum it gets more intense. So, we're animals. A lot of us haven't been tuned into that because this is kind of a new element in consciousness for people in the scientific world and the world of psychology and the neurobiology of human relationships. 

That's one part of why I think relationships are so challenging. You're with your friends or you're with your parents or you're with your kids, you're with your partner, your lover, whoever, your employer, your employee and they say or do something that is heard or seen or experienced in a certain way and it's like, Forget it. All bets are off now. People get triggered into their own defensive patterns. Which, I know this, of course, because I've lived it like everybody else has or does. I think there's a lot of need for people to become aware or educated about the nature of the animal body. That's one facet. 

The perspective I have come to appreciate is that nothing and no one exists as a solid, independent, isolated entity. When I look at a person, I look at this body, I see there are all the parts and all the conditions that bring this into, conventionally speaking, reality. The flower is made up of all non-flower parts: the petals, the stem, the leaves, the roots. We use the word flower as a net that gets thrown over the whole thin. That gives flower the impression of being an independent thing unto itself. But if you snip off the head of the flower, you've got a stem and leaves; people don't call that a flower. They call it a stem. It goes on infinitely. So, nothing here is solid like I used to think it is. And I lived in ignorance of that for most of my life — ignorance simply meaning I did not know. The trick of the mind is so powerful. The ignorance of that means… my experience has been self-protective. 

All those things combined make it very challenging for people to have the relationships they really yearn for, which brings a quality of, I can relax. And relinquish the image-management show that I've been putting on all these years so that you get to see me the way I want you to see me. Self-consciousness. It's taken me a lot of questions and a lot of time. And I'm not saying it's all done, but it's taken a lot for me to really sink in... to find myself feeling less and less and less dependent upon your opinion of me for me to find, I'm okay here. 

ACT: You mentioned earlier that you are doing the best you can. I struggle with the idea that we are doing the best we can or with using that as an excuse for why we aren't doing better. Like you said, we aren't individual entities, but we proceed as if we are. Me first, all the time — and almost with no consideration of anybody else. The things that we do wrong are limitless and I would say we're not doing the best we can. None of us. Or am I wrong? 

KC: I want to interview you! I don't think you're wrong and I don't think you're right. I can hear what you're saying. When I said that it was flip, yes. What I hear in what you're saying is the pain of that. The absolute pain that is involved or evoked by what you're observing. I can feel that, too. I'm understanding, I think, something beneath the surface of these words that feels very much [like it's] coming from a place of a deep humanity and a deep caring. I think a lot of people develop a kind of armor around that feeling of that ache and are walled off. So they don't have to feel or experience their own experience. I can say these things because I've done it. I'm not saying anything that I haven't myself experienced. 

So, let me say it this way, which is not flip — when I think about what you're describing, I think about moments in my life when I've either felt injured or done something I think was hurtful and I come to see there are all these internal forces and external forces impinging in any given moment. And this is a kind of compassionate accountability for me. And it's been very important for me to find a way to think about my own experience/my own behavior in other people with that in mind. Not as an excusal. Because I'm doing the best I can can be an excusal. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes a person is truly doing the best he or she can in that given moment. But when it's used as an excuse or a rationalization or justification, that means that person or myself is dodging something about [our] own behavior or experience. I don't want to dodge it, though. You don't want to dodge it. I'd rather feel this than dodge it. That's my integrity and your integrity. I think it's part of our dignity to be able to be self-reflective. So, when I seek to understand the behavior that I perceive going on within or around me and I ask myself, What about the internal elements, external forces that are impinging on this person at this moment?, it at least helps bring about a greater understanding. And that doesn't mean I agree with the behavior. There's room for accountability here. It's part of the deal. 

But I think self-deception is as old as the hills. We're all prone to it. I say that with no judgment. It's one thing it seems a lot of us share in common is the prevalence of our self-deceptions and biases. And when I think about all the thieves and the crooks that are running governments around the country, I do think about these things — the internal and external forces that are impinging upon them in the moment. Which isn't mutually exclusive with the fact that some of them... it would be good to see them in jail. But I don't feel like I can afford — and this is that refining fire — to hate and vilify without myself suffering the effects of that internally. It's a toxin that I can't bear. It's like that old idea — taking poison and waiting for the other one to die. But I know that I need to keep my internal system cleared out and to experience the profound, endless sources and experiences of joy in this world and in my own being. So, I'm not excusing. That is a way that I do my best to try and understand what's happening. And it's not easy. That's why I turn so often to poetry. 

ACT: Will we accept responsibility and take action to move towards a better future? 

KC: I don't know. Doesn't look like it. Do I know what's gonna happen? I don't. And when I say I don't know anything beyond this moment, I'm not being sly or facetious or obtuse or anything. I don't know. What I do know is this — this very moment. Does that mean I'm not gonna make plans to do what I'm doing later? No, I will. But I don't really know what's gonna happen. This is all speculative. I don't spend as much time there as I do with, What really matters right now, given the givens of the life I'm living within and can bring forth?  

ACT: There's this idea of hoping or wishing for a better future. We claim to want it but it doesn't seem like we're willing to work for it. Click your heels together and wish for peace and harmony or dig your heels in and do it. 

KC: That's easier said than done. You don't just do peace and harmony. Our conditioning is potent. From tinyhood, it's potent. It's not a small thing to pause long enough to even notice how many behaviors, actions, thoughts, and feelings are conditioned — robotic, even. Peace and harmony isn't gonna come from somewhere else. Where is it? It's not out there. I've done enough searching through my many, many, many decades to see none of the activities or relationships or substances that I engaged with gave me that. It's not out there. So I turned within for that — to investigate it. When I started to do that, I recognized how deep the conditioning us. Not only from within familial structures, which is the first training ground, but also school and culture and advertising and all of that. It's intense. 

It takes dedication and it takes patience and curiosity and persistence to stop and really reflect on what I'm thinking and saying, believing, perceiving. I can question it. We believe things without question. I've believed things — all kinds of things — without any investigation whatsoever; just took for granted this is the way it is. Until I started to realize, Oh my god! So, I'm not underestimating the power of the conditioning of not only this one lifetime, but of generations. It's heavy and deep. We are not collectively encouraged to be contemplative or reflective. We avoid solitude. I'm saying we. It makes it sound like I'm sitting on some kind of throne somewhere. And I'm not. I include myself in the we. But the truth is, I've learned to love that — questions and solitude and contemplation. But we're not geared that way for the most part. Mostly the mission is get busy, get productive, get shit done. It's not stop, slow down, reflect on this. People are afraid of solitude. I'm not feeling I can sit in judgment of people because I've done so many of things we're talking about — I can just describe what I see. 

I just feel for people, including myself. I feel for the condition. That's what I'm trying to say — the condition. The existential dilemmas, the conditions. More often than not, what people are doing and their behavior and their busyness — at least I can say I've seen this in myself — is turning away from my own experience. And what is it about my experience that is so objectionable that I need to find a way to evade it or project it or avoid it? And that is a heart-centered, central question. What is so objectionable about this moment that I want to do anything but experience it? Whatever it is that might make me want to get up and go to the fridge, or go get outside, or go buy something, or take a drink... that pause is such a gift. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

KC: (Lots of laughing here) I'm sorry, but I just flashed on that movie, The Jerk, with Steve Martin and he's in the trailer and he's having his first sexual experience. You see the trailer bouncing around and he's like, I found my purpose! I found my special purpose! 

This is my purpose right now. I stopped with the purpose thing a long time ago. I get it. I understand it. It is another one of those sacred cows, though, that I have to have a purpose here. And lots of times, in my own experience and in my work with other people and friendships and all that, the search for purpose, the thought of losing purpose, the thought of never finding a purpose — it's like looking for a soulmate. It's like an endless hope. And hope is always focused on something that is obviously not present right now. So, there we are again, evading the moment. So my purpose right now is this. 

I have felt a lot lighter since years ago I realized it was just another concept that was not required for me to live a life of fulfillment and joy and goodwill and spaciousness and honesty. It was just not required. It just makes me smile. I know that's not a response that maybe a lot of people would cotton to, but that's okay because I don't care about that as I once did. And I love people and the world now in ways that I couldn't before because I relied on the validation from outside myself to be okay. And when that's gone, I feel a real freedom. 

I don't know. I don't know what it will be like listening to this conversation. It feels like it might be a little whacky. 

ACT: Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there? 

KC: Yeah. One last thing. On Wednesday afternoons I go downtown in front of Bellatazza — 1ish, roughly — and I hand out poems. It's poetry instigation. I take poems; I put 'em on a document. They're short. This week I handed out a poem that was written by somebody else. Next week will be one of my poems. And then the next week will be somebody else. Back and forth. So, if you or anybody else wants to come down and get a poem sometime... it's awesome to stand downtown and offer people a poem. I love it. I'd love for you to come down sometime. Say hello. Come get a poem. 

PS. After our interview, Krayna asked me to include this poem as a parting thought:

Late Fragment 

And did you get what
you wanted from this life, even so?
I did.
And what did you want?
To call myself beloved, to feel myself
beloved on the earth.

Raymond Carver (1938-1988) from A New Path to the Waterfall
Copyrighted material; for educational/therapeutic purposes only.

This was Carver’s last poem in the last book he published before he died of cancer at age 50.  RIP, Mr. Carver, and thank you.

Skye Kimel referred Krayna to participate here. It turns out that Krayna and I live nearby each other, so it was a treat to go to a home I have passed by several times and meet and chat with the resident there.

Jerry Scdoris

I'd like to offer a big and warm thank you to Andrew Smith for recommending Jerry to participate here. It's hard to imagine a circumstance in which I would have met Jerry otherwise. I feel very fortunate to have had this time with him today, which was so lovely and sincere and vulnerable and genuine. Jerry lives on a large plot of landed completely surrounded by BLM land with his 100 sled dogs. Jerry's a sled dog racer and a tour guide and the father to Rachael Scdoris, who has experienced a substantial amount of fame for her athletic accomplishments. I've seen a bunch of sled dogs before, but never 100 of them in one setting. And I've never been so up close and personal with them as I had the opportunity to be today. If you listen to the interview, be aware that I inserted some audio of what those dogs sound like between my introduction and the start of our conversation. While it may not be obvious in the recording, please know that the dogs are happy and healthy and wagging their tails. Jerry and I spent three and a half hours together, which is a bit more than is normal, but it still wasn't quite enough. I so look forward to spending some more time with Jerry — learning from his vast experiences and enjoying more wonderful conversation. 

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JS: I'm a life-long adventurer. As a youngster, I was really a wild child. I discovered athletics in about the sixth grade. And I was totally obsessed with athletics — track and field, basketball, football, baseball — all through high school. And I had a lot of success, which defined me. And I had really great friends. Everyone had the same interests as I did. And from those childhood and adolescent friends, I still have a lot of them. Because we were really close — like brothers, almost. 

Right after adolescence, I got drafted into the Army. Right out of high school, I went to the University of Oregon and I had never learned how to study. I got decent grades in high school, but it's 'cause I paid attention and went to class. When I got to college, I flunked out. And back in 1967, when you flunked out of college, guess where you went. You got drafted immediately. And I got drafted. They promised me if I took an extra year — if I signed up from the two-year draft to a three-year enlistment, I wouldn't go to Vietnam. So, I totally believed 'em — hook, line, and sinker. I took that extra year. And then my life has progressed. And here I am at almost 72. 

ACT: What concerns you these days about humanity and the state of the world? 

JS: When I got drafted — it takes me back there — and when I took that extra year in the military, I really felt, because of my upbringing and my schooling and the type of indoctrination us kids went through in the '50s and '60, that Vietnam was really a wonderfully just thing — that we were protecting our neighbors and our loved ones from the dirty Communists that were somehow going to infiltrate downtown Portland, Oregon. When I realized almost immediately that that wasn't the case, I went through a real metamorphosis and almost a rebirth as a person and ended up challenging and questioning everything. Anyway, I've had a lifetime of questioning that era. 

Now, in the last three or four years, especially, I'm just completely blown away at the suggestions... like this morning I heard Donald Trump suggesting that there could be civil war to protect him from the deep left, whatever he calls it. It's just amazing. I have a four-year-old grandson that is absolutely the true love of my life and I can't even imagine the next twenty years of his life if we don't get things sorted out in the next two years of his life and get back on track, as just a regular dysfunctional society as opposed to what appears to me as a pretty psychotic dysfunctional society. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

JS: Because of my business — the sled dog tour business at Mt. Bachelor — and because I hire, for the last thirty years, anywhere from three to six young people — fresh out of high school, fresh out of college, bright, young, motivated, mainly idealistic, outdoors people and athletes — I've been surrounded by 'em. The good thing is they've kept me really young and on my toes and extremely physically active and healthy. And I'm still healthy except for my knees. I see people as, in my life, critically important. I've always had people around me and that's been my expectation with my business. And before that, being a school teacher and a counselor of court-mandated delinquent boys, I've just always been surrounded by lots of people with lots of issues and lots of stuff on their mind. And I love it. I actually love people. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with one another and the world we live in and if those relationships are as important as most people claim them to be, why are we having such a difficult time considering everybody's needs with empathy and compassion? 

JS: Boy, that's really a question. Back when I was an adolescent, everything seemed kind of clear cut. First of all, I knew I had my days completely filled with school and practice and my friends. And then in the Army my days were completely filled with the craziness that the military was to me. About 40 years ago, I discovered my love for the outdoors and my desire just to live out here — out here, meaning in the middle of everywhere. Some people say, Oh, you live out there in the middle of nowhere. Well, no, I live in the middle of everywhere. And I just feel so lucky that I discovered this. 

Before the internet and cable television, when there was no exterior/outside entertainment available, my daughter and I — I raised her out here in the Badlands Wilderness Area — and we had a stairway up to our roof and every single night — every night — we went up there and we camped out on top of the roof and laid flat on our backs and looked up at the Milky Way. My daughter's visually impaired and she would lay there and tell me what she saw. From the time she was five or six until she was seven or eight, she could hardly wait to get up there so she could see god in the Milky Way. And I thought that was pretty cool. 

So, I think the world's in bad shape right now. I think the people that know better have really got to stand up. I have several friends that really think differently than I do about life — about what I'm expressing right now — that are really great people. They just don't look at things the same way as I do. So, I've got a lot of room for those people in my heart. And I don't think that we're in a desperate place. I think we have really desperate people that are trying to divide us. But I think there's still a lot of hope for a lot of good. 

ACT: What's the compulsion for the division? Why does that motivation exist? 

JS: Well... I think it's all money. I think it's all the desire for wealth. But then I see the folks, the really poor people that support Trump — I don't know how much I want to get into my feelings about Trump right now because I get a little irrational talking about irrational subjects — but I see the irrational support of someone who could not even stand to be in their presence; they would repulse him and his family and his children. But they support him blindly. And I really believe somehow he's touched a chord. 

I know that every day of my life I've gotten up and made something happen. And made money. Enough money to support myself and my daughter and the few to several employees I have. I know that no one's given me anything. But when I hear people say that people that are against Trump just want a handout, it just really makes me crazy. It just doesn't make sense. 

ACT: Instead of hoping for a better future, do you think we will accept responsibility and take the action to work for a better future? 

JS: Well, I think hope is everything. I lived my life always with the desire to have things a little easier than they are now. Because of my education and the things that I've done professionally, I've seen people that, looking at them, you'd think they don't have a prayer in the world — adolescent boys that were felons at an early age — to do any better in their lives. And it's pretty hard to talk to them about developing a plan and having hope to be a better person and to not end up in adult jail. It's pretty challenging. For myself, at this point in my life, I'm not hoping for things for myself. I'm really comfortable. And I've paid my dues psychologically trying to figure stuff out. And I don't think I've figured, necessarily, anything out, but I figured out that what I care about is a future for my grandson. I can't imagine anyone that has a grandchild — four to ten years old — that isn't really worried or at least concerned about their futures. Leaving 'em a lot of money or a few thousand bucks isn't gonna make any difference. The world really has to change. 

I went to a soccer game the other day with my grandson who's four and just really sees himself as a future Oregon Duck football player or New York Red Bull soccer player, Portland Timber soccer player. And he's four! If we don't get things sorted out a little bit — things are never gonna be perfect — I don't see much future for the kids. 

Back in the '70s and the early '80s, they called it runaway inflation. And now looking at the cost of everything, it's skyrocketing inflation. And where will it stop? And what are people gonna do just for a basic living? The ultra, ultra wealthy are digging their heels in and really developing strategies never to lose that wealth. And they appear to be willing to do anything to protect it. And I don't see people that don't have a grasp of their tenuous existence hanging in there financially — even for the basics. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

JS: Yeah, I think I've always had a real sense of purpose. The thing that really gave me purpose was when my daughter was born. Before that I think I just wanted to maintain my health. I was really into running — marathon running. There was no more pole-vaulting or fantasies about being a great football player — I was 38 when she was born — but I was really fit and pretty confident. Moving forward with my dogs, I was really focused on myself. That's what it was all about — just staying fit and eating right and no booze, nothing that would interfere with my physical objectives. Then when Rachael was born, everything changed. 

From the first month, I knew something was wrong with her vision. And I was a Special Ed teacher. And I knew how to go through the system. And it was so hard. Knowing how to navigate the system, I was blown away by how hard it was and what it was like for me to be told no, that those services weren't available or that there was nothing that could be done. It hit me really hard back then. Well then what in the heck do people do that have no idea how to move through this? How do they deal with it? So, anyway, I spent years being an advocate — and I still am; I'm just not active — for disabled kids and juvenile delinquents and all that. 

I decided to go after the other pursuit of being a sled dog racer and operator and going out in the mountains and clearing my brain of everything and just focusing on my dogs and the environment and the beauty that the solitude gave me. That's what I focused on for a long, long time. Oh, and making ends meet as a small business operator. I have tremendous respect for tiny businesses — mom and pop's and daughter's and dad's businesses. It's a miracle that we exist in this corporate-driven world. 

ACT: How do we bridge gaps without judgment? 

JS: Oh, boy. That is the thing. I mentioned earlier I have so many friends that I love. I love a lot of people. And I've got friends that say things occasionally —politically and just in general — that just stops me in my tracks. And I know that I do the same to them. I know I do. So, I know that they're opening their heart to me. And if they can open their hearts to me — 'cause I'm pretty clearly a liberal in some ways extremist — and they still love me. At least they give me the feeling that I'm totally acceptable in their lives. And then if they're not, I've got nothing for 'em and they certainly have nothing for me. That's pretty judgmental. 

Like this morning's tweet from Donald Trump — that he sees a civil war looming... the difference back then, in the 1850s and '60s, is that there was a dividing line. There's no dividing line now. We're all neighbors. I live within a mile of people that think very radically differently than I do. And I don't want the President or anyone suggesting that we can't figure stuff out and can't live together somehow. Whenever I really start talking about this, like this right now, I feel like I could go into my old hippie days, Why can't we all get along? And I think it's more complicated than that in some ways, but in other ways it's not. 

I would say I have as many extremely conservative friends as I do really liberal friends, maybe even more, because of where I live and what I do. And I don't feel fearful of those extreme remedies happening. And for the sake of my grandson, I don't know if it's hope for a better place... I'm leery of asking everyone to think the basics of the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, because I'm definitely not a religious guy. But there's just some basics on how to live and a lot of people that are spouting off really radical issues and programs on both sides should probably think of their grandchildren and the fact that we've got to figure it out. I don't think we're doing a good job of it right now. I think we need politicians that really live it, that believe it, that believe that there's hope. If the only hope a person has is to attain more wealth and more power, then I don't think that's very hopeful.

I'd like to offer a big and warm thank you to Andrew Smith for recommending Jerry to participate here. It's hard to imagine a circumstance in which I would have met Jerry otherwise. I feel very fortunate to have had this time with him today, which was so lovely and sincere and vulnerable and genuine.

Jesse Russell

Skye Kimel recommended Jesse to participate here. I had heard of Jesse through mutual friends and had even taken a peek at his small-home development, The Hiatus, last winter, so it was a treat to finally meet him. We had a lovely and lively conversation and I left feeling invigorated. I transcribed the bulk of our conversation for your reading pleasure here, but there are some fascinating off-shoots that you'll have to listen to the audio in order to enjoy. I appreciated so much that Jesse's train of thought was often introspective and void of judgment. My guess would be that we could all take a lesson from that behavior… I know I certainly can. 

---

JR: I am Jesse Russell. I am currently a developer and builder, but I don't think I've ever really identified with my job in the way that it is who I am. I was a reality TV producer for a long time and I never felt like, I'm a reality TV producer. For some reason, I've never been the person that whatever my career is defines who I am as a person. So, I think I'm just a guy that is interested in a lot of different things. And every once in a while something pops up that I get interested in for a really long time. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? And what motivates you to do something about it? 

JR: I find I don't have as much time to spend with my buddies — with my good friends. One of the things I really love about the friendships that I have is just sitting around and talking and speculating about the world and our lives and how we're moving through it and all of that. Now I have a family, so it's a little bit more difficult to find the time to do that. And I think that's so important for all humans to try to stop and sit and think and wonder about themselves and their part in the world. And that's not a place you get to where you have it al figured out; it's continual change, all the time, for an individual. And, for me, I really value my friends' opinions about that and they've helped me immensely through all kinds of different chapters of life. I find that I don't get enough time to do that. And I think the reason I don't get enough time to do it is the reason a lot of people don't get enough time to do it — we get really obsessed with things easily. I think that's as Americans. You go Europe and they have a little bit better work/life balance. And I've really strived to do that in my life. And as of late, with this development, I haven't really been able to do that. I'm getting back to that place where there's a good balance of time to sit around and think about stuff. I think everyone's moving a little too quick sometimes, including myself. 

To me, balance is the whole deal. You don't just attain balance and hold it. It's a lifetime of trying to continue to balance stuff. If I'm working too much, something's going on that's not right 'cause I'm not feeling happy or I'm not feeling like myself or whatever it is. You try to balance it out. You try to find some time to do something else. Or change radically. That's what I did with my career in television. I was like, I'm done with this. I can't do this anymore. And I don't know what it is I'm gonna do, but I need to change this. And that's when I started taking more time to do all the classic... I meditated, I went on yoga retreats, I did ayahuasca in Peru. I was on this search for balance, really. It wasn't even, Who am I? or any of that; it was, How do I balance my life back out so that I'm enjoying my life again? 

Ironically, coming to the tiny houses was that. When I built the first tiny house on wheels I had real balance. I was really enjoying being home. I had my friends. I had physical work that I was doing. And it was interesting; I didn't need any of the meditation or self-help books or yoga or any of that at that point because the physical labor of building was giving me this thing. You can't get too existential while you're framing a house. You can think a little bit, but you really have to think where the hammer's going or where the tape measure is and what size things are. And I think that just gave me this meditative thing where I stopped thinking about, Oh, what am I doing in my life? Am I living it right? Should I do this? Should I do that? And that just led to where I am now. Why couldn't I just be happy building one house, living a super simple life? I had to turn it into this big, 22-unit development that we're trying to do now. And now it's gobbled up my life and I don't have balance anymore. Weird. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

JR: I love people. I'm a people person. I think most people would tell you that about me. I'm pretty outgoing. I like to talk to people. I like to hear about their stories and what they're doing and who they are and where they've come from and where they're going. All of that is really interesting. My close friends have just been really good people to not guide me through life, but to be there to talk about how to get through it. I grew up as an only child. It was just me and my mom and she was a bartender, so I spent a lot of time alone. I always thought of that as what helped me to be really independent. But, as of late, I think it affected me in a different way. And the way it affected me was a need to have people around all the time. I'm not very good by myself. I don't like to sit much by myself. I like to have people around. Whether that's a fault or not, I really enjoy having a community and having a family.

Even here, the workers that work here and the investors — it's an amazing group of people that came together to help with this. From the really wealthy that had the money to be part of this to the guys that are framing the houses or painting the houses, it's been a really good group of people. And it feels good to be part of a big project that everyone's working together. And I couldn't do this by myself. And he couldn't do it by himself or she couldn't do it by herself. But together we all put our parts in and it becomes something that's greater than even what I thought it was gonna be. It's a little bit of a cliche now that I'm thinking about it. There are struggles, too, with the people. It's not just like everyone's living in harmony. 

ACT: That's what I was just going to ask. What do those people mean to you?

JR: I think I believe that all humans start out good and we've got good in us. I think people can get really confused for various reasons that have to do with even their genetics, but also just the way they've grown up or what they've been taught or how they were informed. So, I tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt to a certain degree. However, there's a line where it will feel like someone's taking advantage of you or your friends or your family or whatever. And I think when that line's crossed, it's important that there's some action that's taken. I'm not a fighter or anything, but I definitely think that there's times in your life if there's someone that's in the wrong, it's okay to let them know that. 

ACT: I define community as our relationships to each other and the world we live in. And most people I've talked to place a lot of value on their relationships. But there's a lot of injustice, so why aren't we doing a great job of showing that value and being considerate of others?  

JR: Well, I think there's a human condition problem. There is a human condition that is suffering that has to do with a defined ego. At least in America — and a lot of America has bled out to the rest of the world, too — we're encouraged to really define who we are. We're really encourage to be like, I'm Jesse. I have a family. I live in Bend. I snowboard. I am a developer. I'm left wing. I don't like Trump. I drive a truck. You know, whatever those things are, we're encouraged to define ourselves as much as we possibly can. And once you've done that, it's harder to have empathy for other groups. Because you've defined who you are and maybe who your friends are. I'd like to think I have a pretty diverse friend group, but there's definitely some things that are total similarities. One of those things would be politically. I only have one friend that thinks Trump is a good president, for instance. But when you define your tribe like that, it's really hard to see the other person's reasoning for why they think what they think or they're doing what they're doing. And it's hard to have compassion. If everybody can somehow just remove who they are just a little bit to be able to see other people, I think it would be really helpful. I don't know how you do that. 

I think if humans could get to the point where they just relaxed a little bit and were able to be open to other people's... I have friends that are really, really left-winged and they judge other people by that. You couldn't say that you were a Republican in front of some of my friends. They wouldn't even hang out with you. They wouldn't even talk to you. That's the huge problem, right? As soon as you can't have dialogue between people, you can't accomplish any kind of equanimity between groups. 

You don't know what that life story is that that person has had. Going to rallies and reading books about it... it's like preaching to the converted. You just have to be open. There's reasons why people are the way they are a lot of times. And sometimes those reasons are really tragic. The more you define your values and your ideals, you're not open to ever questioning your own shit. The more people continue to do that, the less movement you're ever gonna have as far as any kind of innovation or helping the world. It's really cheesy to say it, but why can't everybody just get along? Why is that? It seems kind of weird, right? Why can't we all just be nice to each other? And I think it's because we've defined who we are and what we want and what we're gonna do. And whether we've done that through our life experience and our genes and how we were raised or we just happened to go to college and the friends you got while you were in college believed that or you met some professor who told you about it or whatever the thing is that defined that, if you can't stop and examine why you're thinking those things, it's really difficult to get anywhere with any kind of progress for problems. 

ACT: I've been exploring the idea behind the statement of 'you matter'. We're often told that we matter as a message of encouragement or support, but I'm more interested in it as a point of accountability. Your actions are not just affecting you. They matter and you matter because what you do affects all of us. I'm often wondering if someone is doing something intentionally, if they'e doing it intentionally but they are un- or misinformed, or if they're doing it absent-mindedly. 

JR: I truly believe we don't know what the fuck we're doing it. I don't think anyone really, really knows. You can look at celebrities or politicians and they have real identity of who they are and we can feel like we know them because we see them in this intimate way — like a television or movie or whatever — but they're going through the same shit. They're defining themselves in some way and that helps them to go, Oh, that's why we're here. That's why religion exists. It's why people buy Lamborghinis when they're 50. All of these things are just to go back to Why the hell are we even here? Why are we humans? Why are we on this Earth? What's the bigger purpose? Humans seem to need to have something that gives them some sort of purpose. 

And that comes out in all kinds of different ways. That can come out in a big truck and if you see someone bicycling, you don't like them instantly because that's just how you've informed yourself. Or vice versa, you can be on that bike and you're like, I can't believe that these cars don't give me space to ride my bike. It just gets back down to people defining who they are and not being able to open up to other people. We're all just here trying to figure it out. And there's things that we do to help us feel better about the unknown of life and death. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

JR: I'm not a highly religious person, so I don't have purpose in the sense of the spiritual. The only way I've been able to really think about the grander scheme of things and people mattering is that when you die... this is a really simple way to look at it, but if you can live your life where people give a shit when you die, that's a good thing. 'Cause there are people who die and people are like, Good riddance. I'm glad that guy's gone. He was a real asshole. Once you die, the only thing that's left is these ripple effects of how you affected the people that were there. I do think that that's how you live on past your death is how you've affected people while you were working through the world. And that can be negative or positive. 

Skye Kimel recommended Jesse to participate here. I had heard of Jesse through mutual friends and had even taken a peek at his small-home development, The Hiatus, last winter, so it was a treat to finally meet him. We had a lovely and lively conversation and I left feeling invigorated.

Shanti O'Connor

Dayna Taus recommended Shanti to participate here. I had heard of Shanti and even attended a presentation of hers a couple of years ago, but I couldn't quite remember the context and I know we hadn't met, so I was looking forward to meeting her today. I spent the last week in Maine, visiting my family, exploring my old stomping grounds, and generally not thinking too much about this project and really couldn't have asked for a more pleasant reentry than this warm and encouraging and honest conversation. I am so glad to be able to introduce Shanti to you here and hope that you'll find our chat to be inspiring and motivating. 

If you choose to listen, be prepared for the super abrasive and shocking noise of a weed-whacker near the end of the recording. And if you read instead, please feel free to blame the interruption of Shanti's final thought on that, too. 

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SO: Well, I try not to describe myself in general, honestly, because I feel like there's so much that's lost in words, but I guess for this sake... my name is Shanti O'Connor. And I am, first of all, a mom. It feels like that's sort of the thread of everything I do. That's who I am. I am a wife, an athlete. I am a curious individual. I'm just this really interesting, weird person. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? And what about it affects you personally? 

SO: I think what concerns me the most — and it's personal, but it's also collective — is relationships and how people treat other people. But specifically, what I'm super concerned about is how parents are treating and raising children. My concern about that is personal because I was raised with a drug addict who was really violent and we were homeless and my life was very unpredictable and scary all the time. And so, it's a heightened awareness that I have in our community and the collective and it concerns me because there are a lot of children being raised and being hurt. 

And, as we know, how you were raised has a direct impact on how you feel and how you show up in community and what you're able to do and your health and your longevity and the relationships that you have. It affects everything. And so, on the very simplest level, how we birth our children matters and how we raise our children matters. 

ACT: What can you or do you do about it?

SO: I work with a lot of moms. I did this Birth Awareness Week and I try to educate individuals on the ways to birth that are more safe — safe in terms of emotionally safe, physically safe, spiritually safe — than the choices we're making. And also in my work with moms, it's a lot of helping them unwind their own trauma so that they can show up more fully in their life — with their children, with their partners, whatever they're doing. So, my work is more on the individual and those individuals have the ripple effect that impact the larger community. 

ACT: What do people mean to you, individual to individual? 

SO: People mean connection. People mean transformation. People mean growth. People mean love. So, for me, when I see people, I am just so instantly curious. Who is this person? What is their story? So, maybe just a lot of curiosity when it comes to people. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in and our relationships are what matter most to us, why are we having such a difficult time considering everybody's needs and differences and equality and equity and embracing compassion and empathy? 

SO: Well, I'll share personally. Like I mentioned, I come from high trauma. If you look at this thing called Adverse Childhood Experiences — it's a scale of 1 to 10 and the higher you go up on the scale, 10 being the highest, you have a harder time having healthy relationships; you have a harder time just existing in a healthy way in society; you're more likely to be sick, to be a drug addict, to go to jail, prostitute; all of the things that you don't want to have happen in life, you have a really high chance. And I'll share personally, I'm a 10 out of 10 on that scale. And what I can say for me growing up in high trauma is I didn't know how to have safe relationships. For me, because I was so traumatized, I was so scared of people. The nicer you were, the more I questioned it; the more I would run away from that and have a negative response to that. But the more unhealthy somebody was, I would go towards that. My guidance system was off. And that was what I knew. I had a lot of unhealthy relationships. Now, I still had compassion and I still wasn't judging... I still had this layer of empathy and compassion. 

How we are raised directly impacts how we're able to show up in community; how we're able to have relationships. But it even goes back further than that. What we know about being in utero is that your mom's trauma, your grandma's trauma, your great grandma's trauma is all being sent down and you are adopting the trauma of the matrilineal line — not the masculine, but the feminine line. We're being born and some of us have high anxiety, depression. A lot of it's not ours. It's probably our great grandma's, who was in a war. So, collectively, we are seeing that everywhere. People are so disconnected from their self. And they are so scared. What I know to be true just in the little work that I do, the majority of people are highly anxious, are really scared, and don't know how to make any change or impact in their life. If we look at that collectively, you can see that. 

I know for sure that the problem is trauma. The problem is what's happening generation after generation; it's building up. And so, our baseline of normal has moved up ten notches to fear, stress, anxiety. We're not even born with a baseline of normal. Some of us are. Some of us are so blessed and we do. And I also know from my own experience that we can learn. We can heal. And we can learn how to be with ourselves. And we can learn how to be in relationship that's healthy. It can take a long time. It took me a good twenty years to get there, but I feel like I'm arriving. And how I show up now in community is profoundly different. I feel a comfortableness. I feel a worthiness. For a long time I didn't feel worthy of any sort of goodness. I didn't feel worthy of anything. And so now I feel worthy. Now I feel like I can allow myself to be heard, to be seen. I was invisible for so long in my life. Like, literally, people would run into me all the time. I felt invisible and it seemed like I was invisible. From my personal perspective, that's a huge part of it right there. 

After my first child was born, I started this mom's group. I decided I just wanted to be around people like me. And it was great because they validated all the choices I was making. But what it started to create in me was judgment around anyone not making similar choices. I wasn't allowing myself to be exposed to other perspectives and other stories and other needs. I was only creating this tight bubble of what it means to be a mom and raise a kid. And it started to feel icky; it didn't feel right.

And so, after my second child, I created another mom's group, but this time I put it out to the community, Hey, I'm doing this. This is my intention. I really want a loving community of moms who care about their children and care about community and will show up for each other no matter what. And I got all of these women to show up that I would have never met because they were making parenting choices, they were making life choices, very different than mine. They didn't look like my people. But, it turns out, they are my people.

I really saw the whole system instead of just one little part of that whole system. And I think that can happen a lot in the collective. It's really easy and safe to be in these really isolated communities. And it is wonderful —there are some beautiful things that happen out of that. But the down side that could happen is that we don't get to hear the other stories and perspectives. Once we hear them, we realize, Oh, actually, you are really just like me. You don't look like me. You don't sound like me. But you are so similar to me. I can relate to that feeling; I can relate to that situation. So, if I look at the micro, I think it's the same for the macro. 

ACT: There's this idea that people are doing the best they can with the level of awareness that they have. I'm not sure I agree with that because I often don't the best I can despite having the awareness. Raising awareness, though, does seem like a good start. How do we do that in a broader, more on-trend, fashionable, Instagram-able, and farther-reaching way? 

SO: I don't know how to make it more Instagram-able and popular, but what I'll speak to is we need to start having more uncomfortable conversations. Not only you holding yourself accountable in that way and saying, Hey, what's that about for me?, but also with our relationships and going up the scale to collectively. For me, I have a lot of awareness about birth and raising children. And so, questioning — in a very understanding, compassionate way — but questioning choices that we're making… it starts with that on a maybe more simple and fundamental level. And also being really open to having these uncomfortable conversations. I don't know the bigger answer to this question, but I do know that that's part of the solution. And getting our ego out of the way of these conversations. Just being really curious and open and not see it as an attack. Sometimes it can feel defensive and attacking, but other times, if we just try and sit with whatever's being asked or said, we might find something out.

We haven't learned those communications skills of how to say those things. Non-violent communication kind of helps. How do we learn to even have those really simple, charged conversations without making it personal. But, that's the way. True community… we have to expose to our shadow. We have to talk about our shadow. We have to let our shadow be seen. It is one of the most important things community has to do. Because through that chaos is liberation and real connection. 

ACT: We hope for change, but it's really just up to us to take responsibility and make it happen. Will we do that? Will we begin to make the future we want? 

SO: Yeah... I think it's gonna happen slower than maybe you or I would prefer. You and I and a lot of people in this community are ready for quick, radical change because I think we've done enough work that we know it, we see it. We will welcome it because we know what it will bring. But, on a bigger scale, it's either gonna happen slowly, which means there's just gonna continue to be these crises that will wake people up. Honestly, I wish I had a more optimistic view, but I don't see it happening unless it's through crisis — whether it's natural disasters, another invasion, whatever it is. I think we're too comfortable. I think we're too complacent. I think our life is too easy. And it's too scary. Change is scary. Change scares me. It does. But I've had enough change throughout my whole life that Ive learned how to be scared and still go towards change. I'm not quite sure how it will change otherwise, honestly. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

SO: Yeah, I do. I think that's why I'm one of the very few with my background who is living a somewhat normal life… I don't know if how we live is normal. I think part of it is because I always knew that I was meant for something. I didn't know what that was. And I'm still not quite sure I know what that is, but there's this energy that drives me because I know I have a purpose. I know that who I am is needed and unique enough in this world that no matter what I'm doing it's taking me down this line of destiny/purpose/whatever.

I feel like on a very general level my purpose is to help people, more specifically women — just because women are more drawn to work with me than men — to really heal themselves and teaching them how to find their truth, how to speak their truth, how to live their truth, and how to really find who they really are. That's something that really lights me up. And I think my purpose is to just do what I can to make community stronger and more loving.

And it happens on these very small levels of helping these people heal. And then it happens on these bigger levels of the community that I'm actively creating that's very nurturing and honoring and loving. And it's not about competition. I recognize and I create a space where we all recognize that everyone is so unique and has amazing gifts to offer that it doesn't necessarily diminish anybody else's gifts. It really makes the whole community shine when we're all in our gifts. I feel like all of that is sort of my purpose. Ask me in a year and it might change. But, yeah, that's the constant thread in my life. 

And a lot of it is because of my own personal background. So, that sort of fueled my work. Because of how I lived — living homeless, going to twenty different schools — I never had community. Never. The longest place I'd ever lived somewhere was maybe two years and so, by the time I landed here — and I've been here 15 years — I got to really understand what community is and it scared the shit out of me. So, from my personal experience and story, creating really strong community is important. And a lot of it is because I didn't have it. So, I'm really curious about what that looks like and what that means and what that feels like and my part in creating that. 

Dayna Taus recommended Shanti to participate here. I had heard of Shanti and even attended a presentation of hers a couple of years ago, but I couldn't quite remember the context and I know we hadn't met, so I was looking forward to meeting her today.

Lisa Shropshire

JJ Riddell recommended Lisa to participate here. It turns out that JJ has been working hard in community activism since at least the 8th grade, which is when he and Lisa met. I'm grateful to JJ for connecting us as Lisa and I had a wonderful conversation together. We spent a few hours together and covered nearly every topic. We chatted for an hour or more over a cup of coffee and an ocean roll before going on record and then revisited a couple of those topics which you'll read or listen to below. And then we kept it going after the interview. 

Our talking definitely left me with some food for thought. What can we do? Sometimes it feels so daunting, doesn't it? How can we express our concern and compassion in actionable ways? And how do we balance that with some levity? I think about this stuff a lot and I am trying so hard to encourage others to do the same through this project. Is it working? I hope so. 

I'd like to offer a big thank you to Lisa for her time and candor and her willingness to listen to my perspective and thoughtfully engage in a difficult conversation. I'm sure you've noticed that not everybody is willing to do that. 

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LS: My name is Lisa Shropshire and I describe myself as someone who loves her family very much and I'm passionate about many things and [I’m] very much a disrupter.

ACT: What do people mean to you, individual to individual? 

LS: A lot. I think that it's hard going through this life by yourself. And so, having someone that you can trust and rely upon and be there in good times and in bad times is extremely important. And that's one of the things that I worry about in our culture — and I think all cultures -- is loneliness. It's a big thing. Having individuals that you can rely on and hold close in your heart — very important. 

It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round and to keep it an interesting place. But some people are just noise in the background. I don't know that I'm one that likes everybody. I try to see the good in people and I think mostly there is good in a lot of people. My circle is pretty small, so the people that I do have around me mean a lot. And I try when there is somebody  — or people, or a group -- that I don't agree with to respect. But I have to keep that at a distance because sometimes it gets to be too much. The noise gets to be too loud. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? 

LS: I think life has gotten very complicated in many, many different ways. I think that there are these standards and bars that have to be met -- or we feel like we have to meet them. We live in this Instagram-able world and if you don't project a certain image, you can feel bad about yourself or insecure. That really concerns me for young people. With all the ways and all the technology that has made our life easier, I think it's made it a lot harder. It's made it a lot harder to develop real relationships. And I worry about that. 

ACT: What inspires you or motivates you to do something about it? 

LS: Suffering is hard for me to see. When I see a vulnerable population -- and I'm using that term loosely, whether it's kids or animals — if they can't do something to help themselves, it really motivates me to get out there and to try to help and try to affect change. When our son was in second grade, I was very involved in his school and his classroom; I was lucky enough to have the time to volunteer. It was hard for me to see kids in the classroom who couldn't afford to buy books at the book fair or to go on the field trip. And that really motivated me to get started in doing grassroots and guerrilla fundraising — to help somebody who couldn't, at that point, help themselves. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in and our relationships are paramount, why are we struggling so hard to bridge the gaps and to consider everybody's needs with equity and compassion? What does that mean to you? 

LS: In this culture if somebody asks you, How are you? it doesn't matter whether you just lost your dog, you're gonna say, I'm fine — everything's great. Are we really being honest with each other? Until we are, there's always gonna be a struggle because there's no vulnerability there. And that's hard for me. When I offer to help people, I really mean it. Do you need something? How can I help you? Whether it's just a level of politeness or what, I don't think we're honest with each other at all about the struggles in our life — the good times and the bad times. If things are going really, really well, you don't want to share because, Oh, gosh, do they think I'm bragging? But when things are really, really bad, you don't want to bring people down. I'm one [that if] you ask me how I am, I'm gonna tell ya. I mean, not to a perfect stranger... but I don't have much of a filter. And that's from years of therapy — you gotta get it out. I appreciate with my friends when they're honest when they have a struggle and we can talk about it. Because I think it makes it easier. We talk about struggles as a whole and as a society, but everyone has their own. And when you keep it all inside, that's not good. 

ACT: What do you do with the larger examples of things that aren't being kept quiet, that are being talked about, but are still suffering consequences of being outside of the cultural norm? Why are we still struggling with gender disparity and transphobia and homophobia and racism and sex trafficking and domestic violence and child abuse? Why is there such a disconnect? 

LS: Well, bad things happen. It's true. Child abuse — great example. I was abused as a child. And it's not a secret. It was bad — it wasn't terrible; people certainly have it a lot worse. But it wasn't talked about back then. At all. It was not talked about. There were no resources. And that defined a lot of who I am now. But I was lucky; my parents found the resources. Now there are systems in place. It still goes on, unfortunately, but there are places that kids and families can go to get help. Whether they choose to or not is a different story. Why it happens is a different story. And it can happen anywhere. 

There's always gonna be struggles. And I think there are people out there that are trying and I think we are making some steps, but the world is a harsh place. I think every nonprofit wants to work themself out of business because they don't want their services to be needed anymore. 

With child abuse, I think a lot of times abuse happens in a home because the parents — the guardian, the adult — is so frustrated with their own life and what's going on. Whether it's financial or mental health or whatever it may be, they don't have the resources to deal what they're going through, so they take it out on their kid. 

ACT: It seems to me that at the core of all of the injustices is a lack of consideration for someone else because you can't see past your own shit. Can we popularize empathy? Can we get to the bottom of all it through some sort of — whatever works these days — social media campaign? The most important thing, the coolest thing, the thing that's going to get you the most social credit is to just give a damn about someone other than yourself. We can't teach every single person every single lesson in life. How can we beat this? 

LS: I try to affect change where I can. It would be great if everybody could take a stand like I did with Jimmy John's, but it's not possible for everyone to do that. Even if it's baby steps. For some people, it is baby steps. For other people, they have means to help make change on a much larger level. But if everybody did what they could do, I think it'd be a tremendous change. If everybody said, This is what I'm gonna do today or This is what's important to me. If I can affect change and help one person or six dogs or whatever, that adds up. But I do think you're right. I think people say they want to help and they say that they do, but do they really? Does it get uncomfortable for them? It kind of has to get uncomfortable. 

ACT: You can hope for something until you're blue in the face and it's never going to happen. What brings about change is effort and energy and working towards it. Do we want to change? And will we accept responsibility to make that change? 

LS: Oh, change is scary for some people. Right? Yeah, we want to change and people can talk, but it's hard. It's hard to think of reframing the way that we live or the things that we do. And the perceived giving something up. Could we all go down to just one car? Or no car? Yeah, we can, but it's a shift. And it's a challenge. And I gotta tell you, a lot of people don't like change. 

ACT: I'm tiring of listening to people claim that they want things to be different while everyone knows that change is hard. But you cannot do the thing — insert any of the topics we've talked about today — without sacrifice. How important is what we're stuck on? How important is what we're unwilling to give up? Versus how important is the change that could come if we did? How do we get through to people about that efficiently? There's not enough time to wait around for everybody to have their individual epiphanies. What we do matters. 

LS: Like we talked about, I will no longer eat at a certain sandwich chain because the owner's a big game hunter. I don't believe in that. I voted with my dollars on that one. But I'm just one tiny grain of sand. Right? I think the question may be, How do you get a critical mass to make a small change? Straws — everyone in my family got their own personal, portable and bendable straws to carry with them. And you know what? Some of them actually use them. Which is awesome. I have one in my purse. I pull it out. I don't use straws anymore. Again, I'm just a tiny grain of sand. What's the movement to switch one small thing? And I don't know. How do you get a group of people to commit to making one small tweak to their daily routine that will show us change — that will have measurable results? I think that's it. I think once people start to see measurable results, it's like, Oh, okay. This really works! It's really hard when you're just one person. It's really hard. 

When you see the wins — when you see, Oh my gosh, I had a hand it that — that's what keeps me going. How do you get a group of people to tackle one small issue and see that their efforts resulted in something good? Then you tackle the bigger one. And the bigger one. That's a tough one. Is it a community? Is it a neighborhood? Is it a school...? That creates a habit then, right? There's just so many things that need to be shifted. And when you look at 'em as a whole, I think it's Well, how can I make a difference in that? But when you can take it in small chunks that you can actually measure and see, I think that's what people respond to. That's what I respond to. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

LS: Yeah, I think I do. I want to make a mark on the world, but I don't have to do it in a splashy way. If I can do something to help make someone's life easier, better, or be there at that one time... maybe that's not a purpose. Maybe that's a goal. I think I was put on this Earth to address the elephants in people's living rooms. And I don't know why. Why are we closing a blind eye to this? Why don't we talk about what's going on? I'm the one that tends to bring that up. Maybe that's my cosmic purpose is to instigate change where change is needed. I genuinely do like helping people in whatever way that I can. But not for the fanfare, but just to be there. 

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

LS: This is hard! It is. You bring up some really good questions. I read some of your interviews and it's intimidating to try to articulate in a concise manner and hope that what you say makes sense to yourself and to other people. I do think that people — most, certainly not all — want to do better. And that's left up to interpretation what that means. Is it doing better for themselves? Is it doing better for the community? Is it doing better for their family? I think that people really do strive to do things in a better way. It's just left up to the individual to determine what that is. There's a lot of things thrown at us. I think a lot of us are jaded. We're dulled by everything — the negative, the negative, the negative. You feel like, What can I do? How can I affect change? I'm a grain of sand. What can I do? But I think people can. They can help. They can pick the battle. What's it gonna be? Try not to be everything to everybody. But just pick the one thing that's important to you and try to make it better. 

JJ Riddell recommended Lisa to participate here. It turns out that JJ has been working hard in community activism since at least the 8th grade, which is when he and Lisa met. I'm grateful to JJ for connecting us as Lisa and I had a wonderful conversation together.

Jason Chinchen

Skye Kimel recommended Jason to participate here. And I am so glad she did as our time together was so rich. We chatted at Jason's kitchen table over some tasty coffee while in the company of his two three-legged dogs, Rally and Charlie. I felt as though Jason and I connected in a very real way and I am very excited to share our conversation with you here. I hope that you'll find our sincere back and forth encouraging. Jason is a man of many hats and one of them is that of photographer. I always feel a little extra pressure when photographing a photographer, but today that was extenuated by the fact that Jason told me before my arriving that he wanted to photograph me with his medium-format, tintype camera. We had a blast together, which seemed like a meaningful way to mark this 150th interview. 

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JC: I'm Jason Chinchen. I'm an artist, through and through. I'm a dynamic, ever-changing, evolving human. And I think we all are — just not everybody wants to roll with that, I guess. 

ACT: What do people mean to you, individual to individual? 

JC: Increasingly I see others as I see myself, which is as a human that's doing their best and working through their stuff and working through life and trying to make sense of it. So, I think the older I get, the more experiences I have, the more I can relate to everybody across the board because, if you start there, then you automatically build in a lot of grace and a lot of understanding for others and what they might be going through that might cause you some kind of problem or issue in life. Learning how to relate to others through that — knowing that we're all sort of in the same boat — has been really good for me. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? And what motivates you to do something about it? 

JC: Well, certainly we live in an interesting time. I think all the standard things that are probably concerning a lot of people right now are concerning me — the state of the politics in a lot of parts of the world, the climate. I've got kids so that stuff hits home for me. What's their future look like? In terms of how it makes me feel or what I can do about it, I definitely feel pretty helpless in a lot of ways. And I'm probably not the only one that feels that way. What I'm doing or what I can do is on the micro level -- just within my life and through my actions and hopefully just contributing to the greater good somehow. Sort of trusting the Universe at this point. I don't know how else to put that or what else to do about the state of things besides vote and get involved where I can.

ACT: Do you find there is a thing in particular that you get down on yourself about or keeps you up at night or you wake up with on your mind? What makes you frustrated? 

JC: Having worn so many hats — I've worked so many different kinds of jobs for so many years in my twenties and thirties — I didn't have the people skills or the interpersonal skills or the tools within myself to interact and relate with people in a way that was appropriate or healthy all the time. And I think the older I get and the more humbled I become through life's experiences, the more I realize that that self-control has been a huge part of my growth. 

It's funny because I've actually been mulling this over lately. I'm definitely a starving artist — whatever that means. Is that a self-fulfilling prophecy or is that just the state of who I am personally or that's a label I want to put on it or am I not trying hard enough or should I have gone to business school...? So, I think my biggest frustration really in life isn't that I don't make money — although money would be nice. I mean, I make a little bit of money — I'm fed and I've got coffee and my dogs are fed. I've written so many songs and played music for so many people. I've built guitars and been this inlay artist. I've just expressed myself through art in so many different ways. When will something hit? When will something stick? When will something be the thing? I think that's the frustration. 

I have a really hard time sticking to one thing or just doing one thing solely in my life. I need to have different outlets. I've got to have my physical outlet and I've got to have my creative outlet and, increasingly, I think connection with others has become really important to me and nurturing connection without expectation, no matter who that person or people are in front of me — whether it's people I work with or people I'm dating or people I'm making images of. I think that interpersonal part was a frustration for me for a long time that I've solved to a great extent — or I'm working through. So I think now it's more about "success" or whatever. Even though I still understand inside that that doesn't mean anything. For me, the quality of my art is really the most important thing. When I look past all the other things, I want to be a really good artist. I want to make something that is beautiful and impacts people when they see it or hear it. 

ACT: We could define community as our relationships with each other and the world we live in. And we tend to place a lot of importance on our relationships. Why then are we having such a hard time with equity and equality and considering all the different needs and having empathy and compassion? 

JC: I think human nature might be one of the first things involved in that. As a child of the '70s and '80s and somebody that's kind of lived through the golden age of humanity — at least what appears is gonna be the golden age — I think seeing the arc of technology in our lives through my life points to that to an extent. Having phones with screens and [being able to ]do so many things with them, I think it pulls us apart from each other because we're focused on that. It's like a periscope into the world and we can see everybody else's lives in an intimate way that we could never experience before. The only way to get to know people before you had this space periscope or whatever you want to call this thing, you had to go and interact with them. You had to go do things. And you had to call them on the phone. You had to memorize their phone number. So, it's a huge crutch to fully interacting and experiencing other people.

And the first thing that's gonna do is make you feel inadequate in your own life. It's gonna make you feel disconnected because you feel inadequate. It's gonna make you resist interacting with others because you feel inadequate or because it's just as easy to sit on your ass in your pajamas and look at a phone for six hours. And I'm guilty of that. So, I think that technology and especially social media, etcetera... And I play that game; because I can make money through that; because I like to post about my life. I'm as much of a sucker for it as anyone else, but I see it. And I think a lot of people know it. We just don't know how to... it's the norm! 

ACT: But why the homophobia, why the domestic violence, why the sex trafficking, why racism, why genocide....? It seems to be the same thing underneath all of them. What is that thing that makes what I'm doing more important than what you're doing in any given situation? We have a few iconic heroes (Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Jesus, etc.), which suggests to me that people aren't really all that good. Instead the annals are full of travesties and atrocities. Sure, we can say technology contributes to it these days. But there's something more. 

JC: Again, I think human nature and [the'] evolutionary need to succeed. A lot of it has to do with history repeating itself. A lot of it has to do with greed and power and control from higher levels. And we act as puppets. We are the pawns. And that happens through control of media outlets and through political means and religious institutions, etcetera. There's a lot of different people that want a lot of different kinds of control and, at the end of the day, they're consolidating. So we are at a disadvantage — we being the peasants. 

ACT: What makes you act in a way you're not proud of? 

JC: Disrespect is a big one that really bugs me. Yeah, people that drive slow in the fast lane. That's the number one thing that drives me bonkers. Because it's a sign of... yeah, they don't care what you need or want or how fast you want to go. They're doing their thing. And there's something about that that just really annoys me. But those instances give me a chance to work on my shit. You know? Which is Breathe, they're doing the best they can. Have grace. It's still really hard. 

ACT: You've mentioned it twice and I've often heard it as people are doing the best they can with the level of awareness that they have at any given moment. I dislike the sentiment and I'm not sure I agree with it. To use the example of the person driving slowly in the fast lane, I fully understand what you are talking about and it drives me crazy, too. When I am behind that person, though, I am never thinking they are doing the best they can. I'm usually thinking, Why are they so close-minded? Why are they so selfish? Who do they think they are? Can't you get it? Did you go through driver's education? How could you possibly be capable of doing anything in your life if you can't sort out this?!

JC: I don't believe that when I say it, either. That's not the point. I have no place or right in my life to make an excuse for somebody else. The point of that sentiment isn't that you actually try and convince yourself they're doing the best they can. It doesn't have anything to do with them. It's you. It has to do with me. They're doing the best they can. I know I'm doing the best I can. Am I doing the best I can in this moment? No, I'm not. I'm calling them names. I'm riding their ass. I'm making my partner uncomfortable 'cause I'm driving like an idiot. So it's not about them at all. It's about drawing that line, saying, I can't control other people; I can only control my reaction to what they do. 

And that was something I had to learn when my dad disowned me because I left my wife; when my daughter won't speak to me for three years because I left that home. That's a much deeper thing that I have to apply that same principle to, which is that I can only control me. I can only control my emotions and my reactions. And I have to let go of what other people think. I can't spend my energy on that. That's what that means for me and I would hope for other people, too. You release a concern about whether or not they're doing the best they can. You stop looking for the blame outside of yourself. 

And for me, growing up in a really domineering, Christian household with a father that told me that art school was for fags, and worrying about what that person thought of me or putting energy into that for so long was a waste of my energy and time. And I should do what feels right for me. So, that's what that means. They're doing the best they can. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

JC: Oh, hell yes. This moment. And now this one. And now this one. I don't know what else to do. And life is incredible and amazing and beautiful and hard. And I want every last drop of it. It's that simple. 

ACT: We can hope for a better future, but it's really about working for it. Will we accept responsibility and work towards positive change? 

JC: Part of me doesn't think we will and then there's that large part of me that doesn't want to accept that — that refuses to accept that. As humans, our time on this planet is limited. Period. I mean, the planet's been here for billions of years; it's gonna be here for billions more. We are but a blip in the evolutionary chain. Honestly. And I think attributing too much value to ourselves — to each of our individual selves -- is part of why we ask those questions. They're legitimate questions; it makes sense that we would ask that. That's why we're humans. That's why shit is hard — is because we ask questions like that. Right?

Will we right the current ship to a more utopian version of humanity? I want to say we can do it. I don't think we'll do it without a lot more suffering and war and disease and death and greed and power-mongering, but I think that we can maybe get there eventually. I don't think it will be in our lifetime. If we survive the next 50 years, as a race, the rich and powerful — where a lot of this feels like it comes from — are gonna be the ones that are gonna be surviving; not you and me. So, as much as that stuff stresses me out and bugs me and I want to change it, I also know that we really only have so much power and time to do much about what feels important to us right now. In the '40s there was a lot of crazy shit happening. And a lot of people died. And there was a lot of war and whatnot. You know? It seems to be a cycle. And if history tells us anything, that's gonna happen again. 

ACT: I do get lost in the recognition that we're a blip in the evolutionary cycle and greed and power are running the show. It's a vicious cycle because in it I also get so judgmental about why other people aren't so concerned. And why people aren't trying and why so many people have bought into the game. And then I try to bring myself back by remembering, like you were saying, that it's my reaction to it that I need to worry about. 

JC: When we're people of action and when we see problems and it makes us see things and we want to make them better and we want to do something, I think that's great and good and normal. And there are things we can do. I don't have a lot of knowledge when it comes to  Buddhism or Eastern philosophies or whatnot, but I've done a little bit of reading the last few years in that vein and one of the things that I've learned through some Alan Watts and some Thich Nhat Hanh and some other things that I read this last year — kind of like what I was saying earlier about giving people grace — we can only control ourselves; we can only do internal work, really, at the end of the day. And it seems counter-intuitive to say I'm not gonna worry about the state of the world and change it: I'm gonna do what I can do to change me right now, but when we change ourselves, we change a part of the universe. We've changed the flow of the energies. We've changed the way that the future looks when we do our own work.

And so, as hard as it is to look inward and just do our own work, sometimes that's the biggest thing we can do to change the bigger picture. Because your work is gonna involve all the things that are gonna make you a better person and then you will automatically be a better person and the things that you do and create from there forward will make changes. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but it makes some sense. And I've been working hard on that lately - trying to do that internal work. 

Skye Kimel recommended Jason to participate here. And I am so glad she did as our time together was so rich. We chatted at Jason's kitchen table over some tasty coffee while in the company of his two three-legged dogs, Rally and Charlie.

Alyssa Loveday

Jess Leblanc recommended Alyssa to participate here. It turns out that Alyssa coaches Jess' daughter through a basketball training program she organizes. So nice that Jess thought of Alyssa and even nicer that Alyssa accepted the invitation! We met at Alyssa's house on her lunch break and talked on her sofa while her big Labrador Retriever, Sawyer, tried his best to participate in the interview - you may recognize his presence as you listen. I would have loved another hour to dive even further into some of the topics we touched on, but I’m grateful for Alyssa’s perspective and hope that what she says will resonate with you, too. 

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AL: I am somebody who loves sports. That's what I grew up doing; that's what my family did for fun together. That's what I like to do to pass the time. But I'm also somebody who loves making good connections with smaller groups of people. I wouldn't say I'm super outgoing and want to be in a big group, but I love having a couple really good friends. And I love animals; love the outdoors - one of the reasons why I chose to live in Bend. When I do have my free weekends, we can go camp, explore, hike. 

ACT: What concerns you about the condition of the world and humanity? What affects you personally and what inspires you to do something about it? 

AL: I think our political climate is pretty crazy right now. Tense would be the first word that comes to mind. And I think growing up in a bigger city - Portland is very liberal - and just kind of never noticed anything and, being of bi-racial descent, always felt very comfortable. And then moving to a smaller city - and one that is definitely not as liberal - has been interesting. I totally feel fine, but I have definitely noticed a little bit more racial... profiling is not the right word, but I've been more aware of, Oh, I'm the only black person around here. You get a little bit more looks. And I don't think the political climate we have today necessarily helps that. So, I'd say that concerns me the most, especially being at the age of thinking about starting a family and raising kids. What has that spurred me to do? I don't know. It's not something I go around talking about, so I think that's a question I could still think on. 

ACT: When you experience some form of racial profiling or judgment, how do you make sense of it? What does it make you feel and how do you find the patience to move forward? 

AL: I like to believe that we're all good. Faith in humanity has not been destroyed. But I think when I've noticed it it's been older folks. So, I just kind of tell myself it's that generation. I've overheard a conversation sitting at a restaurant. Nothing has ever been directed towards me. It doesn't feel the greatest, but I just try to tell myself hopefully today's generation is better than that. 

ACT: What do you people mean to you, individual to individual? 

AL: People mean a lot of different things - friends, family - but I think it always comes back to relationships. Starting a small business - yes, it's sports related - but we've met so many different people - kids and their families. Trying with every single kid that's come through to develop some sort of relationship with them. Some kids, it means you're reaching out outside of basketball to see how they're doing. Some kids, we only see them during basketball. And developing relationships with their families and getting to know them on personal levels. And then just with the random person you see day-to-day, trying to be the one that smiles and it's not just a blank face as you're walking by, but giving them some sort of hello - a quick how are you? 

ACT: Relationships are another way of talking about community and you could say that makes up the theme of this project. My experiences with people make or break my moment, my day,  my week, my month. And it seems like relationships are what most people are most interested in. Maybe that's masked by other desires - consumerism or hoarding or greed or activities - but it does seem like most people are concerned primarily with their relationships. As I look out in the world, though, I see a lot of what is broken - animosity, hate, racism, phobias of all kinds. Why are we having such a hard time with connection and patience and empathy and compassion? 

AL: I think we have such a hard time because [of] a couple things. I think people don't want to put in the effort. It takes time to develop a relationship, establish a community with somebody or a group of people. I think people find excuses. I'd rather be doing this. I already feel comfortable with this person or this group of people. Why go meet somebody new? Because it is uncomfortable to put yourself out there in the beginning.

I think it's only gonna get harder for the younger generation now... with phones. I have a sister who's eight years younger than me and her growing up has been completely different than my childhood of not having a phone until high school, not having social media until later on in high school. And I think being around a ton of kids now with coaching has been very eye-opening to kids are glued to their phones these days and having a conversation is very hard for them. Not all of them, but trying to look into somebody's eyes and hold a conversation is uncomfortable for a lot of them. Telling somebody to pick up the phone and call somebody is an uncomfortable thing for a lot of them. So, I think that's only gonna get harder for younger generations.

For us, yeah, I think it's uncomfortable and it takes time and those things not everybody wants to do. You're gonna step on toes when you start talking about things that are uncomfortable, whether it's racism or politics or anything, really, in today's society. Seems to be very black and white with how people think or what they feel. Everybody kind of thinks their opinion is right and those are hard conversations to have - we might have differing opinions, but we can still have a conversation about it. 

ACT: It takes effort to find commonality, so the default is to not. And it's so much easier to highlight the differences. Why do we have such a lousy default? 

AL: I don't know. It seems like there's become these taboo conversations that you're not supposed to have. I heard it all growing up - you don't talk about religion; you don't talk about politics. Those are things that seem to have these taboos associated with them. So nobody talks about it. Nobody talks about it and then we kind of end up where we are today where people are forcing some hard conversations. But it is a little too late in some aspects. 

ACT: Hoping for a better future isn't quite the answer because it really just requires us to work for it. So, will we accept responsibility and move towards positive change?

AL: At some point, hopefully. Are we talking accept responsibility for everything? Anything and everything? I don't know. If you just look at history, it's taken a long time to accept responsibility for some things. I mean, you look at slavery - that took a long time to realize, Oh, this is bad. Has everybody accepted responsibility? No. Are we getting there? Maybe. Discrimination based on who you love - I think we're getting there quicker. I still think it's a long ways out. I don't think it's happening quickly. But I think more and more people are standing up and fighting for those than has happened in the past. But yeah, I don't think it's a Poof! and it's gonna happen overnight. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

AL: I think my purpose is with basketball with our organization we have because we're reaching so many young athletes. We always say basketball is so much bigger than the sport. It's creating relationships; it's having to work in a team, becoming a leader, learning to take directions. So, I've found purpose in learning to coach after playing for so many years and seeing this transformation in kids. Whether it's Oh, I learned how to make a left-handed layup and seeing the joy on their faces of completing that in a game or seeing someone learn leadership skills that they've now gone back to school and are the head of their group project. Just trying to affect the lives of little kids and high school kids that are trying to find their way - whether it's playing basketball in college or not. But because I've walked that path, that can be of some guidance to them. So, I'm loving that. That's something I look forward to. 

ACT: You can see it on your face. That's cool. What did playing basketball mean to you? 

AL: It's something that has just always been there. Started playing in kindergarten and got to play through college - it paid for college. So I'm very thankful for that. I think my life experience could have been very different without it. It gave me some of my best friends. It's meant a lot. 

ACT: Is raising awareness the answer to building compassion or equity or empathy or building a sense of community? Or is it more than that? 

AL: I think if you pay attention to the world at all, you're aware. So, raising awareness almost seems like not the right word choice. Maybe you call it that for younger people, but I think if you're an adult and you pay attention to current events, you're pretty aware. The only thing with raising awareness maybe is seeing both sides of the story because there's always two sides. Maybe you're aware of one and not the other. 

Jess Leblanc recommended Alyssa to participate here. It turns out that Alyssa coaches Jess' daughter through a basketball training program she organizes. So nice that Jess thought of Alyssa and even nicer that Alyssa accepted the invitation!

Skye Kimel

Hunter Dahlberg recommended Skye to participate here. They know each other through the blacksmith trade and we ended up meeting in Skye's workshop, marking the second blacksmith shop I’ve had the honor to visit during this project. I so love sitting in somebody's environment with them, surrounded by what they know. I don't know if that is a trait I've always had or one that I've developed throughout the course of this project, but I’m thankful for it either way. It was so fun to chat with Skye in a big industrial space. And I loved hearing her honesty. I don't know if it's why Hunter recommended her, but they definitely share that quality. I cherish authentic conversation and knowing where someone stands on an issue. I especially cherish that when the conversation has back and forth and both people can really hear each other and provide a little room for mind changing. Huge thanks to Skye for allowing that to happen today. 

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SK: I'm Skye Kimel and I don't describe myself. If I can avoid it, I will. For work, I own a fabrication shop with my brother. That's all I've got. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally? And what inspires you to do something about it? 

SK: So many things affect me. Well, kind of, because I think I have two parts where I just go through day-to-day life and just take care of it and then go home and come back. But then, I don't watch the news at all anymore because I just get so sad about it. So, I don't know when people have been killed. I don't know when we're killing other people. I don't know what Trump is saying. I don't know any of these things unless somebody tells me. I did just hear about this hurricane coming today, but that's because my husband told me. But when I do know about the stuff, I just get sad. It makes me sad that the world is an unfriendly place. That it's hard to get by in. That people are unhappy. That people are not always nice. And I'm not always... combative and reactive and it's an uncomfortable place to be in. If I spend any time thinking about it, it makes me uncomfortable. So, I don't really think about it that much. 

I think it's a disconnect. It feels like there's nothing that I can do about it besides just trying to live my own life with integrity. Because if I know about what's happening in the world, if I'm really well-informed and understand all of it, I can't change it. I vote. And I've written at least ten letters to Donald Trump - I don't think he cares. But I don't write every week to my congressman - I should. But you feel like you can't change anything. I don't think it's policies that are problem, really. I don't think it's the politicians, necessarily. We have this whole culture that something's wrong with. And I don't know how to fix it. So, I feel like watching all that stuff makes me sad, but it doesn't change anything if I know in detail. I already know that it's no good. I mean, I'm informed about things that I care about. I care about the permit system that they're doing for the Cascade Lakes Highway. And I pay attention to the things that affect me personally, but other than that, it's just so big. And I can't solve it. You know? I don't know how to make kids stop killing kids... 

ACT: What do people mean to you, individual to individual, as you make your way through your daily routines?

SK: I have a hard time with strangers in general. Obviously people that I love, I love forever, but it's hard for me to let new people in. I guess. Kind of. I don't know if that's even true. I value relationships with people on a one-on-one basis. In larger groups, I get introverted and uncomfortable. So, I tend to stay on the periphery of things. I just kind of hang out on the edges. But I like your project a lot because I think people have such interesting stories to tell. If you talk to somebody, it's very hard to dislike 'em. If you know their story... you just don't know what people have been through. You don't know why they're doing the things they're doing. I think those interactions, when I can stop to take the time to have them, are very valuable. It's hard to remember. 

ACT: Do you have some sense of connection to others, just being part of the same species? 

SK: I think that's really the only thing that you can say for sure - I am a member of the human species. And I live in Oregon; I'm an Oregonian. But there's a disconnect... there's so many of us. It's really hard when you have a population of - I don't even know how many billions of people are there are on the planet. It's really big to think like that. But it's really helpful when you do have those moments, when you can think of yourself in this whole world community as part of an entire world ecosystem that needs to stay alive for us to stay alive. It's a really helpful outlook, but it's really hard to maintain, in day-to-day life, that connectivity. Because you gotta go to work. I think that there's something to that. I could go to any country and make a friend with a person and find common ground anywhere. Without language. It happens. 

ACT: Let's say that community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in. What does our seeming inability to consider all needs mean to you? What does it mean that it seems as though we just can't sort it out? 

SK: Sometimes I think that the real problem is just that there's too many people. So then you're vying for resources that are limited that wouldn't be if there was only 10,000 people on the Earth. Any species, any animal trying to live, is trying to garner resources. And so when you put seven point whatever billion together, they're fighting over resources. I mean, that's what all of our wars are mostly about - is resource acquisition and land. And that's why people are mad about people coming here [to Bend] because they've taken a limited resource and that makes the prices go up. And it just makes people angry. And I think that's world wide. We can pretend that it's about religion and all that other stuff, but I think it's really about limited resources. I don't know. Is it just the fight or flight and that's just what we've evolved to be because the primary thing that everybody cares about is themself first and foremost? And there's nothing wrong with that because your job is to stay alive, biologically. I think we just get confused about what you need to stay alive. So you think it's all those things and then that just leads to the resources. You know, we don't want people to move here because we want our space. And it's the same everywhere, I think. 

ACT: I wonder about the scarcity issue/topic/label. I think it's pretty widely accepted that there actually isn't much of a scarcity issue but rather an allocation of resources issue. It seems like what is happening is an intent to make it seem like there's a scarcity issue through advertising or marketing or packaging. And then that does something to us; that affects our brains in a different way. I don't feel scarcity in our hatred of other people because of any number of differences. Where does that come from? 

SK: Immigration is a really easy version of this. They're coming here and they're taking our jobs. I don't think you want to do that job. I'm just guessing. I don't want to do them. Which is also just so crazy because you're just saying that somebody that just wants to work and help their family is somehow attacking you? I hadn't really thought about that - that the resources are probably there - but there's something that's happening - and I don't know who does it - but there's definitely this perception that people are taking what you might want.

Is that all just rhetoric that they use? Maybe it's all just fear? I don't know. In my case, I'm afraid people are gonna move here and I'm gonna be run out of my home or whatever? Or afraid people are gonna move here and you might lose your job, which may or may not be connected to that at all? Or you're afraid that people across the world are gonna harm you so you act a certain way and support certain things because you're afraid? I don't feel like I'm afraid of things like that. I don't feel like anybody's out to get me. I don't feel like anybody's out to harm me. 

ACT: I'm afraid of losing a game I don't want to play. I think it's mostly chaos out there. I see a lot of people pursuing whatever with madness. And I don't want to be involved. But I'm not independently wealthy - I'm bound to the system in various ways. So, I have to be in it, but I don't like the game, and I don't like the rules of the game, and I don't like the people playing the game. It is fear. For me, it might come out in contempt or a disdain for opulence or for hoarding or whatever, but it's not making me want to be a terrorist or harm someone else. 

SK: Now that you say it like that, I'm afraid that I'm not gonna be able to ever go out in the woods and not see a person - that it's just gonna get too crowded. I'm afraid of that. But people respond differently to different things. So, then you have people that respond in anger to their fear - with hate or anger towards somebody else because of what they're afraid of happening. And then those people talk to other people that have those same fears. And then they become these groups of people. And then it becomes this movement. I think anger and hatred are louder than contempt. They're just talking louder. And so then you get this perception that the whole world is like that or just so many people are like that. And then that just breeds more contempt and a gentler anger. But I think fear is a big problem. I think people are afraid of all sorts of things. 

ACT: Do you think we will accept responsibility and work towards change for the better? A lot of people wish it was better. They wish there was more harmony, more unity, more love, more compassion, more empathy, more togetherness, a stronger sense of community. But it's up to us. So, will we do it? 

SK: I feel like I'm pretty optimistic. I feel like I have to be. Because otherwise it's just so sad if you don't have some sort of optimism about the future. I've got nephews and I want them to thrive in the world. I want people to thrive in the world. To hope for that is important because otherwise it's just too hard for me to be the other way. I have this theory that it is already better. Think! We have done such horrible things. People would go to public executions and cheer and take their children to watch somebody be killed. Now, at least, we have to do it in secret more. But I don't think anybody would stand for somebody being beheaded in downtown Bend and I certainly don't think anybody would cheer for it. I think it would be a really disturbing thing. That's just a really gruesome example. There's still atrocities and people still do terrible things and groups do terrible things and governments do terrible things, but overall, I think we're less tolerant of it. At least here they have to be a little more secretive about it than they used to have to be. 

So I feel like - what is it Martin Luther King, the arc of justice is long. I don't know the saying. [Skye later wrote to tell me the quote and it turns out in can originally be attributed to Theodore Parker and later paraphrased by MLK - I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.] But basically, there is that want to be better. And I think that people won't stand for things that they used to not only stand for but be really supportive of. If you look at history, I feel like maybe it's getting better. 

ACT: Do you think it comes down to an individual having a personal experience with something in order for them to make that positive change? Or are we tending towards a general betterment?

SK: I think we're tending towards it. I feel like Donald Trump is a setback, but I think in some ways his rhetoric and horrible things he says is kind of good because it puts it out there where people are like, No. We don't want to do that. We don't want to treat people like that. We don't want to see this stuff happen. It brings a lot of these things up to the forefront so that even if you don't have to experience it directly because you're a middle class white male that doesn't have those experiences, you can see other people having them and see that that's hurtful and sad and not want to think those things anymore - instead of just not wanting to say them. Before Trump, it felt like things were on their way out - racial slurs and homophobia. People didn't voice their opinions as much. It's more an opening because they just felt like they just couldn't think that because it just wasn't right. But now they're like, Oh, maybe I don't think that. Maybe I just didn't explore it and I just have these tendencies to believe these things because my grandfather believed 'em and my dad believed 'em. But now instead of just being told, You can't say that anymore 'cause it's not PC, now they're like, Maybe I don't feel like that. That's what I'm hopeful for, anyway. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

SK: No. I never had a sense of purpose. At all. I've never set goals for anything. Things happen and I do them - whatever comes my way. I don't think I've ever said I'm gonna do this and achieved it. I'm not a goal-setter. I don't feel purpose-driven. 

I like to enjoy whatever connections I have and whatever experiences I have. And I like to try new things. But I don't feel anybody has a plan for me. At all. I don't think the universe cares what I'm doing even a tiny bit. That's not to say I don't feel responsibility. I feel guilty if I'm rude to somebody. I want to be the best person that I can be. I definitely fail at it all the time and I feel guilty when I fail at it. I don't feel driven to do anything... which sounds really terrible when you say it out loud. I've never even thought about it. I've never asked anybody that question. Now I'm really curious. 

ACT: I've often heard it said that people are doing the best they can with the awareness that they have at any given moment. I disagree with that and, generally speaking, I think we can always all be doing better than we do. Is awareness the issue? 

SK: One of my earlier theories was I just thought people are generally good and they sometimes make bad decisions. But, all in all, they're probably not bad people. And then it started to fall apart rapidly because I think that there are some pretty bad people. But I think that conversation we had about the choice... that everybody starts out neutral... I think that every single one is a choice. You can choose all day, every day, every moment to do something that is kinder and more compassionate or assholish. And we make both of them all the time. I try to be polite and kind to people, but I fail all the time. I mean, every day, all day long - it seems like. But just being aware that you have that choice, that you're not just inherently bad or inherently good, is empowering. And it also makes you think about whether you want to be better or you want to be worse. 

So, maybe people that go and shoot up the schools don't realize that they have this choice in them. They're not told that they have a choice, every single day, for every single thing. Maybe we're not told that. I don't know. I don't remember being raised. And I don't have kids so I don't know what people tell children. But if you're not aware that you have these choices - you can choose to be polite or you can choose to be rude or you can choose to cut someone off in traffic, you can choose to not. You can choose to shoot someone. You can choose to not do it. Nobody's making you do anything, but yourself. 

It's really hard to stop and think about what you're doing. If a client comes in and they're difficult, if I'm able to just stop for half a second to just think It's okay. Just move forward. Do your job. You don't have to take it personally. You don't have to get upset about it. You don't have to react to it. then it's easier for me. And it's a better interaction for both of us in the end. So, some of it is positive rewards for positive behavior. You get it. You get rewarded for that behavior, but it's really hard to stop for that second and realize that if you lash out in anger or whatever that you're not gonna get those same rewards. That you're gonna then, if you're me, you're gonna spiral into feeling guilty 'cause you lost your temper or whatever. Which is so much less pleasant than, Pause. I think it's hard to do and I don't know if everybody knows that they can do that. I don't ask people that. 

Hunter Dahlberg recommended Skye to participate here. They know each other through the blacksmith trade and we ended up meeting in Skye's workshop, marking the second blacksmith shop I've had the honor to visit during this project. I so love sitting in somebody's environment with them, surrounded by what they know.

Priscilla Francis Ibarra

Christy recommended Priscilla to participate here and she reluctantly accepted. Priscilla explained that she didn't feel that she was remarkable or influential enough to participate, but I countered that by explaining that part of my intention with this project is to celebrate and amplify the voice of the everyman/woman. So many of us have thoughts and feelings and ideas, but we rarely have a platform to discuss them in a public way. I am so glad that Priscilla overcame her initial hesitance and I am so very happy to introduce her to you here. Our conversation was real and raw and Ieft me with so much respect for Priscilla's vulnerability and sincerity. 

*This interview is also in Spanish below.

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PI: My name is Priscilla Francis Ibarra. I am an L.A. native. Youngest of four. Daughter of a Susana, who emigrated here from Mexico at 16. An aunt to five lovely nieces and nephews. I make it very known that I am vegan and I believe in a compassionate life. I identify with myself and who I am - I am female and I am Latina. 

I am someone who believes in good and wants to believe in the good of people. And I'm just wanting to leave an imprint in and around my life and people who I come across and just hope to make a difference somehow. I am a crossfitter. I believe in a healthy lifestyle with balance. I am very family-oriented. I love my family. My friends and my family are the most important things to me. And being genuine with them. And just doing right by them. And showing up for them. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity and how does it affect you personally? And what inspires you or motivates you to do something about it? 

PI: I work with local young people who are described as opportunity youth. Back then they were called at-risk youth and I identify as an at-risk youth - my background and where I was raised and my family and our history. But a lot of things concern me. What I've seen in a year and a half of working with young people is mental health is a crisis right now. And I've been seeing more and more of it. It's alarming and I want to do what I can for these young people to get them the help that I believe that they need. But it's hard because, as an organization, we say we're not this and we're not that. But I've been seeing that there's a lot of mental health concerns going on with young people right now and I just want to do right by them. And being the person who is in the community and meeting people, just being able to get them the help that they need - that's a huge concern of mine. Sometimes I see myself in these young people as far as these folks not having guidance and structure and stability at home. Fortunately, I did. But they're seeking it and I'm in a position where I can offer it. And I just want to do more for them. And that's kind of where I'm at. 

ACT: Sometimes it seems like those labels that we use such as "opportunity youth" or "at-risk" end up putting the responsibility or blame on the youth instead of on the parents or family or community or our culture at large. You can help the youth directly, which is a really big deal, but what can we do about the greater cultural issue?

PI: It's hard because I also am not an expert in any of this. I do my best to support them at the best of my ability. Folks who live in poverty, I feel like, might struggle more. I could be wrong, but just knowing where our youth are coming from. I don't know if it's just not talked about enough or just not supported enough or there's maybe not enough resources out there or youth don't know of the resources that are offered to them. Again, I've seen now more than ever that there is a crisis and something needs to be done. And I don't know what that is. I wish I had the answer for it. I don't know whether it's culture-related or not, but... I wish I had more to say. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

PI: That's tough to answer. People mean to me.... the first word is hope. There's people with good intentions and there's people with bad intentions - just trying to find the right people and the right circle. It's hard because I see some people who can be so loving and genuine and then some people who can just be so ugly and nasty to each other. It's hard for me to comprehend how one species can be the same. This world is made up of people and we're here, living on this planet. And some people are just entitled to this life that they're given. Life is a gift! I don't have a solid meaning for it.

What I mean by hope is it's up to us to make changes. We - the people living and breathing in this world - are our hope to have any kind of change. It gives me hope that we can turn it around somehow, before it's too late. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with one another and the world we live in, why are we having such a hard time meaningfully considering everybody's value and needs? How does it change? What is going on and why aren't we doing something about it? 

PI: I have those same thoughts. It's shitty. And it's scary. It angers me. Why are we doing this? Why are we like this? And what are we doing to change? I'm sorry to say, but I don't think people actually want to change. I don't have an answer. I wish I did. I don't know if this is a cop-out, but I just know what I can do and what I can control and what's in front of me and the good that I can do. And I think that's where I try to shift my focus. 

I'm right there with you. Everything that's happening in Mexico. I can think about what's happening in Brazil. And just the treatment of animals. Just how inhumane... animals are killed for people's consumption. I mean, I think about all of those things all of the time. I'm not naive to it. I'm reading books and I'm attending documentaries... I don't know why there's not more talk about it or more people concerned and angry about it. Back to what I said, I just try to shift to what I can do and what I can control and how I - me, Priscilla - can support. And not allow myself to have those blinders and be in the moment and be present and be woke and know this shit is happening in the world. And it needs to be talked about. And surrounding myself around people who are like-minded and also fighting the good fight, as well. This is a really tough question to answer. 

As an adult, it's scary to read and listen and know what's going on in the world. And I just said when I think of people I think of hope and it kind of contradicts what I just said. I feel like one day it's gotta change. Maybe. And change happens within community. And I guess that's why I said I have hope when I think of people. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

PI: I think I am currently on that journey to feel like I have a sense of purpose. And that's just what I want for myself in life. And I ask [my higher power] every day to use me for good and give me a sense of purpose. And I think I'm in it right now - trying to figure out what is my life purpose. And I think that's why I'm here, doing the work that I'm doing. 

I can tell you when I was back home, I wasn't as involved with the Latinx community and a sense of rights - like what we're doing as a community here with the people that Ive met. I wasn't having these discussions when I lived back home because it wasn't as apparent. L.A.'s a melting pot. I was living in this bubble. There is no race issue. We're all equal here. Diversity wasn't a topic for me. I'm embarrassed to say it wasn't until I moved here that [I realized] I can use my voice for the community here. It wasn't until I moved here that I was starting to get involved with these movements and being a part of something - be a part of more than just me - more than just a person living in Bend.

And that's why I say I feel like I'm on that journey of finding purpose. Not being naive and really listening to people and... I'm woke now. I hate to use that word, but I really am now. And I'm seeing what's happened here - or I should say what's not happening - and now I'm for it and I'm behind it and I want to do what I can to make whatever change I can, if that makes any kind of sense. Whether it's my role in my organization or just here as a community member or being vegan and promoting that. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing?

PI: Why I agreed to do this was just taking a chance. I've never done anything like this before. I've never been interviewed like this before, so I wasn't sure what to expect. I was really nervous and I'm sure that showed. I just was worried of saying the right things or not saying enough. I'm just a person and I'm just trying to make my time here matter. And I mean here like in this world - in Bend. This was hard. Whoever reads this, I hope it's worth the read and something comes from this. 

Christy recommended Priscilla to participate here and she reluctantly accepted. Priscilla explained that she didn't feel that she was remarkable or influential enough to participate, but I countered that by explaining that part of my intention with this project is to celebrate and amplify the voice of the everyman/woman.

*Thank you to Priscilla for translating our interview into Spanish.

Mi nombre es Priscilla Francis Ibarra. Soy de Los Ángeles, la más joven de cuatro hermanos y hermanas. Hija de Susana, que emigró desde méxico a los Estados Unidos a los 16 años. Tía de cinco adorables sobrinas y sobrinos. Soy vegano y creo en una vida compasiva. Me identifico conmigo misma y quién soy, soy una mujer Latina.

Soy alguien que cree en el bien de la gente. Y quiero dejar una buena memoria con la gente que convivo en mi vida y espero hacer una diferencia de alguna manera. Soy un crossfiter, creo en un estilo de vida saludable con equilibrio. Soy de una familia preservativa. Mis amigos y mi familia son las cosas más importantes para mí. Ser genuina con ellos, haciéndo el bien, y estar ahi para ellos.

ACT: ¿Qué le preocupa sobre el estado del mundo y la humanidad y cómo le afecta personalmente? ¿y qué te inspira o te motiva a hacer algo al        respecto?

PI: Trabajo con jóvenes que viven a un nivel local, son llamados como  jóvenes del alto riesgo, y me identifico como un joven en riesgo -mi formacion, donde me criaron, mi familia y nuestra historia. Pero muchas cosas me preocupan. Lo que he visto en un año y medio de trabajo con los jóvenes es su salud, por exemplo que tienen problemas mental en este momento. Y he estado viendo más y más cada ves. Es alarmante y quiero hacer lo que pueda para que estos jóvenes reciban la ayuda que creo que necesitan pero es difícil: porque como organización nos dicen que no somos los indicados para ser eso. He estado viendo que hay muchos problemas de salud mental con los jóvenes en este momento, y sólo quiero hacer lo correcto por ellos. Ser la persona que está en la comunidad, poder conseguirles la ayuda que necesitan - eso es una gran preocupación mía. A veces me veo en estos jóvenes y en estas personas que no tienen guía, estructura y estabilidad en casa. Afortunadamente, yo la tuve. Pero ellos no y la están buscando y yo estoy en una posición donde puedo ofrecerla. Y sólo quiero hacer más por ellos, y ahí es donde estoy.

ACT: A veces parece que el nombre que utilizamos como "jovenes de alto riesgo" ponemos la responsabilidad o la culpa de los jóvenes en ellos en lugar de los padres o la familia o la comunidad o nuestra cultura en general. Usted puede ayudar a los jóvenes directamente, lo cual es realmente importante, pero ¿ qué podemos hacer con respecto al mayor problema cultural?

PI: La pregunta es difícil porque tampoco soy una experta en nada de esto. Hago todo lo posible para apoyarlos en lo mejor de mi capacidad. Siento que la gente que vive en pobreza batalla más para salir adelante, podría estar equivocada. Pero sabiendo de dónde vienen nuestros jóvenes yo los entiendo. No sé si no se habla suficiente de este tema por que no hay suficiente recursos, y no hay suficientes apoyo economico, o los jóvenes no saben los recursos que se les ofrecen. Ahora, he visto más que nunca que hay una crisis en ellos y que hay que hacer algo, I yo no se que podamos aser. Ojalá tuviera la respuesta, no sé si es relaciondado con la cultura de ellos o no, pero yo desearía tener más que decir.

ACT: Qué significa la gente para ti?

PI: Es difícil de responder. La gente significa para mí... la primera palabra que veine a mi ment es esperanza y compasion.  Es difícil responder porque veo a algunas personas que pueden ser tan amorosas y genuinas y otras personas que pueden ser tan falsas y desagradables entre sí. Es difícil para mí comprender cómo una especie puede ser la misma. Este mundo está formado de muchos tipos de personas y cosas y estamos aquí viviendo en este planeta. Y algunas personas creen que este planeta es solo para ellas, y que tienen derecho a obtenerlo todo. ¡La vida es un regalo! No tengo una respuesta sólida mejor para expresarme.

Lo que quiero decir con la palabra Esperanza es que depende de nosotros hacer cambios. Nosotros -las personas que viven y respiran en este mundo- somos nuestra unica Esperanza de tener cualquier tipo de cambio. Me da la Esperanza de que podamos darle una solucion de alguna manera antes de que sea demasiado tarde.

ACT: Si la comunidad es nuestra relación entre sí y en el mundo en que vivimos, ¿ por qué estamos teniendo tan difícil considerar el valor y las necesidades de todos? ¿cómo cambia? ¿qué está pasando y por qué no estamos haciendo algo al respecto?

PI: Yo tengo tus mismos pensamientos. Me enfurece y me da miedo. ¿por qué estamos haciendo esto? ¿por actuamos asi? ¿y qué estamos haciendo para cambiar nuestra sociedad? Lamento decirlo, pero no creo que la gente quiera cambiar, no tengo respuesta. Ojalá la tuviera. Pero yo se lo que puedo hacer, lo que puedo controlar y lo que está delante de mí y el bien que puedo hacer. Y creo que es donde intento cambiar mi enfoque.

Estoy ahí contigo. Todo lo que está pasando en México, las carabanas de jente en la frontera. Los incendios de la selva Amazónica que estan ocurriendo en Brasil. El tratamiento de los animales, qué inhumano. Animales son asesinados por el consumo de la gente. Quiero decir, pienso en todas esas cosas todo el tiempo. No estoy ciega a todo eso. Estoy leyendo libros y estoy asistiendo a documentales y discusiones. No sé por qué no se habla mas de este tema y por que la gente no se preocupa por el problema. Volviendo a lo que dije, sólo trato de cambiar lo que  yo puedo hacer, lo que puedo controlar y cómo yo- Priscilla- puedo apoyar. Y no permitirme tener esa mente ciega, estar en el momento, estar presente, despierta y saber que estos problemas estan consumiendo al mundo. Y hay que hablar de ello! Tambien rodeándome alrededor de personas que son de ideas parecidas y se unen contra la buena lucha. Esta es una pregunta muy difícil de responder.

Como adulto, da miedo leer y escuchar lo que está pasando en el mundo. Y acabo de decir cuando pienso en la gente que pienso en la Esperanza y que contradice lo que acabo de decir. Me siento que esto algun día tiene que cambiar quisas. Los cambios pasan dentro de la comunidad. Y supongo que por eso dije que tenía Esperanza cuando pienso en la gente.

ACT: ¿tiene sentido de propósito?

PI: Creo que estoy en ese viaje para encontrar un sentido de propósito. Y eso es lo que quiero para mí en la vida. Y pido [a mi Poder Superior] todos los días usarme para el bien y darme un sentido de propósito. Y creo que estoy en ese viaje ahora mismo - tratando de averiguar cuál es mi propósito de vida. Y creo que por eso estoy aquí, haciendo el trabajo que estoy haciendo.

Puedo decirte que cuando vivia en Los Angeles, no estaba tan involucrada con la comunidad Latinx como soy ahora - lo que estamos haciendo como comunidad aquí en Bend con la gente que he conocido. No estaba teniendo estas discusiones tan seguido cuando vivía en Los Angeles porque no era tan comun. Los Angeles es una ciudad muy diversa poblada de immigrantes te todas las Naciones. Ahora que vivo entre jente Anglosajona, reconosco que e despertado, y ya no vivo dentro de una burbuja. La diversidad y la inclusión no fueron un tema para mí. Me avergüenza decir que no fue hasta que me mudé aquí en Bend que descubri que puedo usar mi voz para la comunidad aquí. No fue hasta que me mudé aquí en Bend que estaba empezando a involucrarme con estos movimientos y ser parte de algo más que solo yo - más que una persona viviendo en Bend. 

Y por eso digo que siento que estoy en ese viaje de encontrar mi propósito. No ser ciega y escuchar a la gente porque me e despertado ahora. Yo estoy viendo lo que ha pasado aquí - o debería decir lo que no está pasando - y estoy en ello y detrás de ello y quiero hacer lo que pueda para hacer cualquier cambio que pueda, si es que eso hace cualquier tipo de sentido. Ya sea mi posicion en mi organización o sólo aquí como miembro de la comunidad o ser vegano y defender los derechos de los animales.

ACT: ¿tienes algo que quieras decir al final?

PI: Si, la rason por qué accedi fue sólo solo para tomar una oportunidad de expresión. Nunca he hecho nada como esto antes. Nunca antes me habían entrevistado así, así que no estaba segura de qué esperar. Estaba muy nerviosa y estoy segura que eso fue así. Me preocupaba decir lo correcto o no decir lo suficiente. Sólo soy una persona y sólo estoy tratando de hacer que mi tiempo cuente aquí en este mundo y en Bend. Esto fue difícil,  quien lea esto espero que valga la pena que lo lean y que algo bueno salga de esto.

Dorian Allstot

Jared Anderson recommended Dorian to participate here. It was obvious through talking with both of them that they have a tremendous amount of mutual respect for each other. I found that connection to be quite moving. I am so grateful to Jared for recommending Dorian to this project as I doubt very much that I would have encountered him in this context otherwise. Dorian and his friends share an aesthetic and a way of life and during the time I’ve spent here in Bend, Oregon, I’ve noticed that this particular lifestyle is one that the people here tend to have trouble with. 

I’ve been wondering what I can do about it and how I might bridge this particular gap. I’ve contemplated starting another project, dedicated to exploring the clash between the home-owning, car-parking, more conventional consumeristic citizen and the stigmatized, less polished, transient crowd who may or may not be experiencing homelessness. Well, as it turns out, Jared and Dorian gave me an opportunity to explore this within the confines of this project and for that I am very grateful.

I didn’t know anything about Dorian before meeting him today and I went into this interview with the same open-mindedness that I approach all other interviews with. And I have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed talking with Dorian. Sorry to belabor the point, but please withhold your judgments about those who might look different than you. Have a conversation. I bet that you’ll learn something and be a better human for it.

Early in our conversation Dorian asked how I felt about swearing. I told him it didn't matter. And with that, there are a few more swears in this interview than in most. But, frankly, it shouldn't be swearing that offends you at this juncture with all the wild and shocking atrocities going on and the incredibly violent, racist, homophobic, and generally divisive rhetoric that ceaselessly plagues our senses. In other words, sorry, not sorry.

Also, Dorian's cat, Yin Yang, hung out with us for the entirety of our conversation and you may hear evidence of her throughout the audio.

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DA: I am Dorian Zane Allstot. I am an adventure-, labor-, general life experience-seeker. I enjoy music and good food and good company and things that make me feel alive. And also things that help me and the people I care about to be liberated from poverty and oppression, which is kind of my big fucking thing as of late. My main concern has been doing what I can at this point in my life - because I'm not getting any younger - to make things as easy and make life as worth living for the people around me as possible in whatever way I can. Because I've had to spend a lot of time not doing that and feeling that that's not possible. That's generally what I do, every day, is see how I can get close to any of that stuff. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

DA: There's people that I wouldn't think twice about dying for. But growing up, especially my teenage years because I was an angsty little bastard, I had really strong misanthropic tendencies. There was people I cared about, but other than that, I did not like people. I did not like the idea of people. I didn't like myself as a person. And so, coming from that and then learning over time that people don't suck for various reasons - or even if they do, there's still reasons that affirm that existence. And there's still reasons for us to be here. People with all their inherent fallacies doesn't invalidate our existence as a people. 

Where I'm at now, a lot of that can rise up sometimes. This is going to sound kind of weird and insulting, but I've come to see people a lot more on the same level as animals and plants and shit like that. I always did a lot more with animals and plants than I did with people. And now it's kind of leveled out to where all life in general with all the bullshit that it can bring and all the things that can spawn, no one deserves to feel like they're not important or not special for being here, regardless of how I might feel about them or how much I might subjectively be unhappy with their existence. No one should feel like their existence is not something worth validation. So that's pretty much where I stand on it. 

Without the people I have now, without Jared or my family or these people [referring to his friends in the other room], I would probably be way fucking farther back on that progress. They're a strong anchor to what continues to tie me to being here on days when that might not be my first option. 

ACT: A woman I interviewed in the second year of this project, Hillary Hurst, said in  our interview in reference to others in general, You matter to me. And then I was speaking with Jared a few weeks ago, and he said something along those lines, too. It's a fairly easy concept, right? But I've been looking at it from this different perspective of using the sentiment as a point of accountability. You matter. And it's important that you know so that you start to take responsibility for the way you live your life. Because you are affecting me and others. 

DA: That's huge. You're tied into things regardless of how much you don't want to be. You are tied into the network of things. When you're at a point in your life where you don't feel like you matter, then you don't give a shit about whatever you're doing to what's around you because you're so focused on you don't want to be here that what the fuck matters what happens while you're here in the first place? If you don't feel there's any value or weight on your existence, it's really hard to express that outwards towards anything around you. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? And what inspires you or motivates you to do something about it? 

DA: What concerns me the most is the lack of understanding and the weird bubbles of ignorance and, on a city to world level basis, the lack of willingness to have compassion and understanding for someone outside your own perspective. I believe things work in cycles. It's not so much that these things shouldn't happen. It's not so much that all this ignorance and the huge dichotomies between what one person sees to the other and the inability to find compromises among that and the way that creates almost like a dog-eat-dog mentality because everything speeds up and becomes more and more crazy. I can understand that. I've seen that happen in cycles in history before. But with the way that we're evolving now and the rate at which things are happening and the things that are coming to a head, I don't know.

What concerns me the most is our ability to reconcile that before we hit an event horizon of we've gone too far to be able... you hit the end game at some point. We're really good at pushing ourselves to damn near annihilation and then learning from that and coming back and then doing the same thing again. But at this point in the world, there is so much destruction going on and so much capacity for destruction just based upon people's lack of understanding. I guess what concerns me the most is we're like an infant learning to walk, but we're walking right next to the side of a volcano. You can slip and stumble. There's the part of me that's like, Well, if that happens then that's what happens. That's what we get. That's what we deserve. But I'd very much like to see what would happen if we could get to that point, learn from it, and then what we look like after that. What concerns me is the possibility of not getting to see that. We're pretty much in the generation that gets to watch everything get torn apart and live whatever life I have left in the fucking remnants of us fizzling out. Which, I like Mad Max and shit like that, so that might not be too bad...

The way in which I'm motivated to do things about it... when I was younger, I wrote out this five-step plan to save the world and unite humanity and shit like that. I don't know, as I've grown up, that didn't work out. But it happens more in a day-to-day. I find myself in a lot of different circles and a lot of different places and interacting with people I'd never guess myself to interact with and interacting with now people I feel super at home with. I have the ability to, in my personal life, do little things to bridge that gap to understanding. I can be hanging out with some well-to-do friends who might not understand how things are working on the lower levels where people don't have as much and they don't have that perception or that understanding and there's things that can be brought to light - just these simple conversations with your interactions - that kind of help people broaden their understanding.

And vice versa, people who have never had the ability to see how things work on a higher level or might only have resentment or anger or frustration with people that they see in different circles because of experiences they had with them. It's not that those things aren't valid, that you've been mistreated or ostracized or marginalized by certain people, but to take away that projection that you have because of those experiences and still understand that those are people and be able to see them more as people as opposed to this projection. Through conversing, through allowing people to meet with people they otherwise wouldn't have the chance to meet with, through offering different perspectives I gained that might cause somebody to be like, Oh, shit. I never thought that. I never saw this caste of person as a person like that. And that makes them just a little bit more human. It might not totally 180 their perspective, but the next time they're interacting with that caste, there's at least some kind of seed, regardless of how much we might clash, of you are still a person. In that same kind of sense, you matter. I might fucking hate your guts and I might want in every fucking way, shape, and form to think that you stand against everything I'm working towards, but that still does not invalidate you as a human being.

ACT: If community is our relationships to each other and the world we live in, what does our inability or refusal to consider all the different needs and inequalities mean to you? There is the possibility that what we're so attached to - and what we spend our whole life chasing - is wrong. 

DA: That's instant terror for a lot of people. In my experience, I do notice that same thing. Even though we're more globalized than we've ever been at any point in history, there is still a heavy, heavy tribalism mentality that goes on in virtually every level. Communities get split so heavily between different groups, which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, but it is when it becomes an in group versus out group kind of thing. There's such a strong tendency to clique up and be like, This is my group and anything else is not my group and therefore, fuck that. It's really crazy strong. It's the cause of a lot of really whack shit. Everyone's so enraptured in their own needs and also not sure what they want, but know they don't have what they want and they're so concerned with trying to fill whatever that is. People would rather go with the familiarity of this is what I want even if it's a total lie to them as opposed to not having anything to cling onto at all and be like, What if I don't know what I want? or If it's not this, then what is it? 

A lot of times people choose the devil they know or the devil they don't to where this might not in any way, shape, or form get you the fulfillment that you want, but it's what you were committed to a child or it's what you signed up for now as a young adult or it's what's you're mentally rutted into and so that's what you're gonna ride with regardless of where it goes. People just like being, through fear, stuck in their own bubble. There is a stubbornness about it. It's not like they weren't given any other information; they just didn't have any other option - they're specifically going out of their way to shut down other options because it doesn't fit into this picture that they've already decided is their picture.

It seems like people's own individual needs aren't met and people are so concerned with that because inherently people are going to want to appease their own needs before anything else. That's what I mean by infantile. Even though people can be grown-ass adults and shit, the mentality of I need my needs met and my needs aren't met and so who gives a fuck about whatever the hell is going on if it doesn't concern me meeting my needs? And that's a huge thing. I'm not trying to say you can blame someone for it because how you gonna blame someone being like, I want me and my family safe before I focus on anything else? The society we live in, the structure, the way it's devised - it creates that kind of atmosphere to where you better go out and get yours, otherwise someone's gonna get it and then you're just fucking left with nothing. So, I understand where it comes from, but it's definitely something that is driving us farther and farther down the ditch. It's shitty because it's so understandable, but at the same time, it's something that needs to be transcended. In order to make things better for everyone you need to not be concerned with just yourself. But people have trouble doing that until they themselves feel okay. And if a lot of times people don't even know what they need to feel okay in the first place, then it puts you in a really difficult-to-break cycle. 

ACT: I used to ask a question about hope, but Ive changed the terminology. I'm glad to give credit to Jared for helping to change my perspective on this. Hoping for a better future implies wishing some magic to take place and usher us into a better existence, but the reality of it is that a better future is possible and the only thing standing between it and where we are now is work. So, do you think we will accept responsibility and make the necessary changes to evolve in a better direction? 

DA: So, at this point in my life, that's pretty much what my main concern is. I don't know. Historically speaking, we, as a [species] are very good at pushing our self to the point to where we pretty much have no other option. It's shitty that we tend to learn a lot better from the stick than the fucking carrot, but that's just how it goes. I know a lot of people who aren't going to give a shit about the planet dying until they can't go out and buy shit from the store anymore. Like I said, we have no other option, and so that's a strong motivator for that to happen. What we're doing now - on so many different levels - the way that we are trying to operate and move forward as a species is completely unsustainable. In an evolutionary timeframe, we are on a super short fuse. It's literally just not going to work. If we were to continue doing exactly what we're doing, it's going to kill us and a bunch of shit on the planet and that's just gonna be it. And so I think that the fact that that is an undeniable inevitability is going to be a huge motivator for people to start taking accountability. Because there's no other option. The only option is that we recycle ourselves, essentially, into something that won't do that.

So, my main concern is at this technological, political, general collective mental state that we're at... because every time we do come back from the edge we are wiser for it. Even though there's a lot of cleaning up to do and there's a lot of pain and suffering that comes from that, we get a little bit wiser. And there's one more cycle to look back on and learn from. It's just that at this point we're very capable of shooting ourselves too badly in the foot to be able to step back from that. We're at the point now where it takes one crazy motherfucker in charge to set off an entire world of devastation. The fact that we're teetering so heavily is the only thing that, I don't want to say gives me doubt, but pause. I'm not really personally gunning towards either one. I do what I can within my life and hope that that will create a ripple or spread enough to at least create at the very least a little bit more of an awakened existence within me and the people I interact with in the world on the way down, if nothing else.

Beyond that, yeah, just watching. What becomes more of a concern is, with that on the horizon, how do I continue to appreciate and approach life and not get caught in a we're all fucked kind of mentality? Because that puts you right back into the loss of accountability to where you can look at things and be like, We're all fucking fucked anyway. Why am I gonna try to give a shit about this person or do this thing or work towards this thing if it's all fucked? I don't think that even the threat of inevitable destruction is something that should invalidate life in the first place. Even if we're sowing the seeds of our own destruction, the fact that we get to be alive to experience even that is pretty goddam miraculous.  

ACT: I get a little discouraged by the lack of significant influence that even some of the greatest historical figures with essentially megaphones that reach the corners of the globe (i.e., Jesus, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Barak Obama) have had. And it makes me wonder how much I should hope to accomplish with this project. But I feel very strongly compelled to do my part to help sort out a better destiny. I'm just kind of at a loss for understanding why it seems so many people aren't thinking like that. 

DA: In a best case scenario you could have people dragging their feet. A lot of times it provokes direct hostility. I agree with the statement that you can't do really great things in this world without having some enemies in the process. There are people that will see what you're doing, regardless of how good for everyone it is - even if they're included in that - it's not the way that they've been doing things or it's not the way that they think that they're gonna best benefit or it's just something that's not familiar. People in their fear and defensiveness of that get hostile.

People who are impacting the world or have the ability to impact the world, I feel like that comes with a lot of those days. I almost feel like it would be impossible to take up that role or even on a way smaller scale hit that point and not have countless of those days of having to re-steel yourself for what am I doing, what am I devoted to, why am I devoted to it? I don't feel like it's a point of not feeling hopelessness; I feel like it's a point of that comes as a natural part of the process and the tenacity you have to feel that and then like, Well fuck. I'm doing it again today. This ain't gonna lead goddam anywhere, but this is what I'm doing. This is what I feel compelled to do. I have no idea if I'm going to die and have all of this mean nothing, but I'm doing it again today and I'm doing it again the next day because that's what it feels like I have to do. Because that's the best I feel I can do now. I don't know a champion of anything that hasn't known the experience of getting their shit rocked constantly before you can get to the point that you can have that kind of pull in the first place. And even at that point, it transforms into new trials of people disregarding you to people being vehement towards you. Which, you know, also strengthens the cause because then it can make the people who do believe in that band together stronger and it gives a beacon to unify under when those people have it.  

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

DA: On and off. When I was younger I felt that I could not enjoy my life if I was not able to craft this world into something that I felt worth living in. Because at that point, growing up... I'm a long-term fucking outcast in pretty much every goddam regard. I would feel so just not okay, just not happy with myself and the place I was and the things I saw happening in the world that I was like, If I can't do something about this, I don't want to be in this world. What's the point of living a life I'm forced to live in a way I don't want for people I don't like in a time that I don’t get to choose what I do? Fuck that. So I became super angry, but super committed to pretty much trying to become the best person I could be in my own young mind in order to be the person who could make those changes in the world. Or die trying and then not have to worry about it.

So, I had a huge sense of This is what I have to do 'cause there's no other option. Because I'm fucking unhappy if I don't do it. Once I got into my teens there was so much different shit going on and I went out to a lot more pessimistic, nihilistic kind of view of I can't do shit about shit. The world's gonna do what it's gonna do. People are gonna be shitty people and I just need to fucking carve my way through that shit. Or not give a fuck about it - just be stupid and self-destructive and things like that. And so now at this point, I've found a tension and a balance between the two. I'm not nearly as gung-ho - there's this or nothing - as I was when I was little. I'm also not willing to just throw everything to the wind and say, Fuck it ! because I can't make the world exactly the way I want to.

I'd say my sense of purpose now - the mantra that I always repeat to myself - is I liberate my loved ones from poverty and oppression. And so, whatever way I can do that in each day, that's my purpose. I may not be able to make this world perfect - I might not even be able to make this world better - but if I can create some network so that at least, if nothing else at all, the people that I care about - which expands as I get older, which is cool and hopefully can keep growing until I die - can create a network to where we're all a little bit better off in the storm of bullshit. Even if I don't get to see the end of the bullshit. Even if we don't get to survive it and we do fuck ourselves up while I'm here, my purpose is to make being here as fulfilling and non-oppressive for myself and the people I care about as possible until I'm not capable of doing that anymore.  

ACT: Do you have any closing thoughts? 

DA: I'd say the biggest thing that a person can do if they don't have any mission is to be honest and perceptive of what you want. Because, regardless of what happens to the world, that's going to be your driving force. And if you don't know that, that's what allows you to be swayed by other shit that's probably also not going to be what you want but for someone else's ends. So, to know and to evaluate, understand I'm here on this Earth. I might not have chosen to be here. I may not have enjoyed being here. But I am here. And if I'm going to continue to be here, what do I want while I'm here? And continue to go after that question, even if it starts you off in a super selfish place. And that's okay to follow that. Because, in my experience, as you follow that and you're honest with that, once you hit what you want... you're like, Oh man, I want a bunch of money and bitches and you get that and you're like, Alright, well, this isn't fulfilling. Now I have this. Where do I go from there? 

Things change as you grow and as you take in new information, what's you want is something that is fluctuating. You find out things that you definitely don't want, which is also great. To be committed to that in as honest a way as possible would be my general closing statement. Learn from everyone, but know and do what you want. That's the only way people are going to take accountability is if they're working towards what they want. And with luck and grace, what everyone wants will eventually, by some means, collectively mean what we wall want for each other. 'Cause those goals, on the deep levels, all end up being the same. 

Jared Anderson recommended Dorian to participate here. It was obvious through talking with both of them that they have a tremendous amount of mutual respect for each other. I found that connection to be quite moving. I am so grateful to Jared for recommending Dorian to this project as I doubt very much that I would have encountered him in this context otherwise.

Gregg Morris

Kevin Kraft recommended Gregg to participate here. He accepted and invited me to his home and we spent about an hour on record at his kitchen table chatting about maybe not all, but at least many of the things. He spoke very highly of his daughter, Ella, who I was delighted to meet after the interview. Gregg homeschooled Ella until high school started and it was really cool to bear witness to their bond that undoubtedly grew during their thousands of hours of teaching and learning together.

I recommend listening to this interview as the transcription below omits many of the subplots from our conversation. If you want to get Gregg in his most authentic form, listening will at least get you close. 

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GM: My name is Gregg Morris. I am what we now consider to be a long-time Bend resident - since 2001. I am a writer/editor. I am the marketing director for 4 Peaks Music Festival and I am board chair for Commute Options - a local non-profit that has to do with transportation alternatives. And I am a dad, too. Now that Ella's in high school, I'm not quite referred to as Ella's dad anymore, but yes, I am that as well.

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity and what inspires you or motivates you to do something about it? 

GM: Well, I'll tackle the second part first. Back in 2003, which is the year before Ella was born, I started thinking about what kind of person I wanted to be in order to show Ella. This was all about how I wanted to teach my daughter to be a person. And one of the main things was non-profits. How do we give back to the community? At the time, I joined the Search and Rescue team here in Deschutes County. Showing her that's what we do - we volunteer; we help people. 

Back to the first thing, what concerns me about the state of the world, I've always said that the person is smart; people are dumb. When you're in high school and you start learning about history, you start learning about the importance of being a good orator. For all of his faults, and there were many, Adolf Hitler is one of the greatest orators in history. And that is shown in his ability to do what he was able to do, so called accomplish. When you can make people believe falsehoods and you can lead them down a path that they think is for the betterment of themselves even though all proof to the contrary, I think that becomes a very dangerous thing. Now we're kind of going through it again with Trump, but it's not like Trump just came out of nowhere. I had the same feelings about the Bush/Cheney era. I don't particularly like to get political; I'm just using this as examples. The idea that people won't spend an additional 15 minutes to learn the truth... instead they'll go by what their neighbor or what Facebook, social media... this culminates in the sharing of falsehoods online. But, really, all it takes is 30 seconds. Is that a true quote? Using another extreme, you look back at racism and a lot of that was formed at the kitchen table with their family, where it goes down from generation to generation. 

So, the biggest concern that I have for the world today is this lack of a want of learning facts. We coast along in our daily lives. And, you know, a lot of people are just trying to make it. Just trying to get a job or just trying to support a family. It's just that extra little bit of learning facts; whether it's facts about population or facts about disease or gun violence - any of these things. We're all built as humans to remember our parents and remember what was said at the kitchen table and their views and it's really astonishing that anyone changes their views at all. It's kind of funny, my parents are almost shifting to my way of thinking now. For a long time we'd butt heads politically or environmentally or any of these things.

If I can just step out of this path that I'm on and question everything - not in an anarchist way, but Is this really true? - and kind of get to the bottom because the idea of life should be that we are constantly improving. We talk about leaving the world in a better place for the next generation and that is the most important thing on all levels. Shouldn't the drive be to continue to get better? And that's what I don't see. I see very smart people who want things for themself and then manipulate everyone else in order to get them. And that right there is probably my biggest concern. 

ACT: Introspection or the detective work that it might take to figure out where this particular belief that one has falls on the truth spectrum would change a lot. How do we motivate people to do that?  

GM: I've heard this saying for the longest time that education is the silver bullet. First and foremost, I believe in education. I don't necessarily mean public school. I homeschooled my daughter - not in a religious way, but just in the way that we felt was most important. I was a teacher a long time ago. I understand that class sizes are horrible; they're very detrimental to kids in both social and educational [ways]. It wasn't a question in my family of whether or not I was going to college; I was going to college. But not everybody is in the same scenario that I was in. Not everybody is expected to. For better or worse. Inner city kids or rural America or kids that have to work on the farm from the time they're 16 so they gotta drop out, or a kid who doesn't have parents in the inner city and he's slinging dope on the corner - those are the extreme examples, but there is this large swath of the population that doesn't have adequate access to education. So now think about all the ideas that all these various kids have. One of those ideas probably would save the world, but we just don't know it because they didn't have access to it. 

So now you take the other side of it. Say we're talking about some fictional character that I'll call… a Koch Brother. You're going through private school to private school and you have certain expectations from your family and from their social pool. And then your'e going to college. It wasn't that just you're going to college; it's that you're going to Ivy League or Stanford or whatever. And then after that, maybe you're getting your MBA. And, oh, by the way, this entire time you don't have any of the financial burdens at all. None. You're not concerned about how you're gonna pay for your next semester or if you're gonna have the 300,000 dollars in loans when you get out. So then you go to work for your dad's company or one of your dad's friends and you move up the ladder. So this is the social norm in your specific area. And this is not the social norm in my area and certainly not in Bend.

I think there's two sides of it. If you hang out with the same person or the same friend group and they all think the same way that you do, you, over the course of time, are going to develop those ideals. If you don't actively question what people say, whether it's a racist remark or a sexist one... if you don't actively decide for yourself that you're not just gonna be sheep... you're going to question maybe there is something wrong with that particular person. Maybe they're right. Who knows? But if you're not actively putting your brain power to that, then we'll never know. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

GM: This kind of goes back to the idea of constantly trying to create a better human race, which sounds like a funny, grandiose way of thinking. But, essentially, if you live your life that way, the understanding that if we can all help each other - and I don't mean to sound Socialist in that aspect - but if we can all in some way, shape, or form help each other get a little bit better... 

I don't have a problem with people until they have a problem with me. It's probably one of my flaws. I'll be quick to jump on somebody easily. I won't start it, but I'll probably finish it. I know that's not the best Mother Teresa-type way to be, but I feel like it's important to not start something. I consider myself to be an introvert... but I'm a musician so I don't have a problem getting on stage and playing to thousands of people. That's not that big of deal to me. I don't have any problem standing up in front of people and giving a speech or any of that kind of thing. But that's the one side of me. And then the other side of me is like Leave me alone. So, how that translates to how you deal with other people is a pretty big question mark for everyone. Did that guy walk past me and look away because he's trying to be a jerk or is it because he's an introvert...? Why did this person do this? rather than like, Oh, what a jerk! That's my feeling on it anyways. 

ACT: If community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in, what does our seeming inability to consider all needs, equality, and equity mean to you? And do you think people are aware of this wrestle? 

GM: There are a lot more people just trying to make it through the day. Whether it's trying to make sure your crops don't fail or whether it's you sitting on a blanket playing guitar so people will toss coins into your little jar, I think there's just a lot more people trying to make it than there are people trying to make it better. It's true with the middle class; you're trying to keep your house or you're trying to keep your car or you're trying to make sure that your kid is gonna go to college and have a little bit better of a life. That's what we were all told. But everyone's just trying to make it.

It takes a certain comfort level for big ideas or any ideas or discussions to come out, for you to really think about how do we change the world, so to speak. Most of us are just trying to make it; are just trying to get through the day or the month or the year. And that's kind of the way of the world. And has been. Whether you're a 14th century serf in Ireland or you're under Roman rule, you're just trying to get through the day.

Quite frankly, I wish I didn't have to deal with this. Just leave me the fuck alone. A lot of people just want to go about their day and be with their family and their friends. But we're at this point where we've been strangled into our existence so that the people that are thinking about it are getting what they want and they're manipulating things. There's a small percentage of people that actually have the time and inclination to think through having a better life. That's the problem is that most of us are just forced into these day-to-day operations and we don't really have time to make things better for our kids or even us. And I think that that's kind of the main problem. 

ACT: I used to ask a question here regarding hope for a better future, but the only thing that is going to bring us a better future is actively working for it. So, will we accept responsibility and take on the challenge of creating a better future? 

GM: Well, to answer your old question, no, I have no hope whatsoever. But that's kind of the deal. You're almost talking about the antithesis of that. The idea of a revolution, whether it's military or mental, comes from hitting rock bottom, comes from this lack of hope. I consider myself a pacifist, but I have no problem fighting. If somebody were to challenge my family or whatever, I have no problem stepping up. And I have been in many fights. And when the revolution comes, I'm in. I believe in it and I will join with the crowd. Whether or not that's gonna happen is part of what I was saying earlier with this idea of marketing and everything being marketing. And the idea of we don't want to be too bad because then people will catch on and be pissed. 

It's a good question. It's been two hundred and however many years since the American Revolution, which started a little bit like that. There was an overlying idea of revolution, the idea that we don't want to be held down by England, at the time. But when you think about the world, there's revolution going on all the time. Literally, all the time. Whether it's in Hong Kong right now... whether it's in Africa... or South America, this happens a lot in various countries such as Bolivia and Venezuela. The idea that revolution is somehow a far-off ideal is comical because it happens everywhere. And, like I said, it's happening now. And it will continue to happen in all these various areas. 

Do I think that we are going to do that? No, I absolutely do not think in the US that's going to happen. And the reason for that is because we are born and bred to always believe that if we work just a little bit harder, we're gonna get everything that we want. It's this idea of freedom and how freedom works. And if you work hard, you'll get everything you want. And if you work really hard, you can be a millionaire. This idea that everyone has the potential. It's quite the load of crap. But what that does is it suppresses all of us because there's always a sense in our brains that it's not as bad as it could be. That we still have it pretty good and if I could just do this a little more, then I think we'll be fine. I think it will all work out. So I don't ever think we'll reach that tipping point, mostly because it's just not who Americans are. That tipping point of truly believing that we're able to do this ourselves. Which again, is a load of crap. 

And then the other side of that is just the fact that we're starting to move out of the revolution idea of a thousand people in the streets. We're moving into two guys with a bomb. And we're moving into a guy with an AR-15 and a manifesto. So, that organizational level doesn't need to be there anymore for some guy to get his point across. I think we are stuck in this roller coaster of one step forward, two steps back. And I do not see a way out of that. 

ACT: I have listened to a lot of people talk about awareness and this idea that people are doing the best they can with the level of awareness they have at any given moment. Generally speaking, that sentiment is often accompanied by hopeless or selfish or complacent behavior. Do you have thoughts on this? 

GM: First of all, I think you're totally right. That is the norm. That is what's going on. And, again, there are some valid levels to that. We've all come home from work exhausted. And do I want to watch the news? No. Do I want to talk politics? No. Do I want to discuss how some major corporation is screwing us? No. I'd like to sit here on my couch for the next 44 minutes and watch some TV show and when it's done I may or may not be able to tell you what that show was about. I just need to turn off. On one level, I think it would be bullshit of me to ever condemn somebody else for doing that or for taking that kind of stance. That's the one side of it. The other side of it, obviously, is that nothing will get done. We won't be able to push through as a community, as a human race, if we don't start doing that. And again, there are a lot of people out there that don't want us to think about that kind of stuff. They don't want us to come home and have these great dialogues on whether education is important. 

I don't know what's gonna happen, but I know that I'm doing the things that I can do. And that's what I expect from everyone else, but I fully know that it's not happening. There's a fine line between wanting to be that guy at a party where you're arguing everything with every other person and wanting to not talk about it at all and talk about baseball or what have you. And I think trying to come up with that fine line is going to be one of the most important things over the course of the next 20 years. Because even though we are divided and even though there's a lot of false memes and misdirected quotes and figures that are total lies from everybody - from our President to some guy that you're Facebook friends with - I feel like there is (and here's a little bit of hope for you) that small section of people just being more informed. It's crazy. A lot of these things are just weird and crazy. There has been more of that. Maybe I should be figuring this out. Maybe I should be talking to somebody or checking online or citing two sources. There has been a greater draw to that. 

ACT: What is your sense of purpose? And what are your closing thoughts? 

GM: This idea of not only making things better for my daughter, but for the human race. The idea of constantly trying to make things better. And that's a very general term. I have a couple creative projects that I'm trying to finish up. I've got a couple albums that I'm trying to finish and I'm the middle of writing a book. But that's just the subsurface. These are things that I'm doing right now, but the idea is I want to make a creative stamp on the world. I want to make something. But more than that, I want to show my daughter that she can do that if she wants to do that. And I want to show other people that they can do that. You don't have to be... I don't know why Bon Jovi just popped in my head.... you don't have to be Bon Jovi to make an album. If you have something you want to say, do it. Put it out there. I'm not doing it to get rich because it's not gonna happen. I'm just doing it to put stuff out there in the world that is a part of me. 

The same reason why I'm working hard with Commute Options is to make things better. But not only make things better now for me as I ride to work or Ella as she rides to school or to her camp or whatever, but also the understanding that once that happens, that becomes the norm. And it's not necessarily the idea of bike lanes, but it's the idea of the next generation taking that to the next level. That's kind of the goal is to make it a little bit better so that the next step is gonna be even better. 

I did Search and Rescue because I'm in the woods a lot and if something happened to me, I would hope and pray that they would come find me. And that's why I help out to go find somebody else that needs help. That's the idea of maybe trying to be a little less self-centered. Even if you tie that back to yourself like I just did, you're still part of the community. And you're still advocating for this sense of community. And I will help you. Please help me when I need it. And I think that's the direction I want to go. That's what I'm trying for... but, we'll see. 

Kevin Kraft recommended Gregg to participate here. He accepted and invited me to his home and we spent about an hour on record at his kitchen table chatting about maybe not all, but at least many of the things. He spoke very highly of his daughter, Ella, who I was delighted to meet after the interview.

Dayna Taus

Kevin Kraft recommended both Dayna and her husband, Mike, to participate here. They both accepted and I actually scheduled an interview with Mike first, but we ended up talking for five hours without ever getting around to the more formal recorded portion. Then, later that evening, my partner and I joined Mike and Dayna and another couple for the evening and spent another six hours together. So, several days later, and after much thought, I met with Dayna, but not exactly as strangers. The conversation I had with Mike prompted some new material, so this interview with Dayna has a slightly different angle to it. And our conversation was rich despite it being significantly shorter than the marathon chat with her husband. I am happy to introduce you to Dayna here. 

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DT: My name's Dayna Taus. I'm a female. I'm a mom. And I'm a friend, a wife, a daughter, a community member. And I have a lot of passion for different activities. I like to create connection and be with people. Yeah, that's who I am. 

ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? And what inspires you or motivates you to improve the situation?  

DT: My main concern is disconnection, separatism - people seeing differences, people seeing reasons why they shouldn't be together or why they need to be separate instead of seeing connection and why people are all the same. And so, I see a lot of similarities when I meet people, things, animals, plants - everything. I see it as all one. And the idea that people see it as all different and disconnected and places where some people go and some people don't go and bridging the gap... so that's the beginning of what I see as the problem. Then I think that spreads out from communities to cities to countries and so much disconnect, whether it's government and its people to just individuals - so vast in terms of people not being able to get along. But I think the main beginnings of it is the disconnection. 

With our next generation, I see it so much in terms of their social media attachments and not connecting through voice and not connecting through eyes - like our senses that we might have learned. And I worry about so much of that disconnect. It's becoming common, whether it's in the workplace or in school or anywhere else. I just worry for people who don't find ways back to each other and find ways to go their own. And I think it causes fights and problems and bigger issues. That's the community piece that I see. Of course, I have other concerns about the world, too, but that would be environmental. 

ACT: Is there something in that does inspire or motivate you? 

DT: Yeah, I am motivated by it. I am motivated to make connection. I'm motivated to see people on the street and look them in the eye and smile and bring forth the things that I think are going to connect us - conversation, not texting and having relationships that don't fuel getting together and being in the same arena and sharing and listening and being present. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? 

DT: I mean, a lot. Almost everything. Outside of animals and plants, people mean everything. I personally feel super connected to people. I think that's the one thing I can't live without. If I had to go with my core value, it would be connection. That's all about people and understanding people. And, of course, my passion is understanding why people do what they do. And why I do what I do. So, all of it is very passionate for me. How I do it, I'm not so certain. I still am trying to figure that part out. I do a lot of that in my regular life. I'm a therapist so I do that individually or within a family unit in hopes that each individual and each family brings that out into the world and can smile and can face people and to find connection and build more of that in community. 

ACT: If we could agree that community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in, what does it mean to you that we have this seeming inability to consider all needs, equality, equity? What do we do with that? How do we raise awareness without detrimental judgment and how do we encourage people to consider growing community and coming together? 

DT: There's a lot in there. The raising awareness was the last piece I gathered. And I feel like I'm still working on it. I don't have an easy answer for that. I think it starts with an individual and sort of spreads as people feel it. I don't know that everyone does that. Which leads me to the everyone's doing the best they can at any given time and I want to believe it, too. But I think I struggle like you do to say that that's a definite. I think it's a great intention. And I want to believe it especially when I'm feeling discouraged with the people around me or if I'm seeing things that aren't going well in society. Then that comes up for me. I think I need to hold onto that intention in order to move through this uncomfortable feeling that I have. 

I had a boss at one point - who's also a friend - who shared with me that if I was ever feeling like I was challenged by working with a coworker to take three minutes to write down all the positive things about that person before I approached that person to talk about what was going on. And I think it just reframed my mindset. If I have that discouragement, then I know what I need to do in order to change my mindset, to not go down that spiral of feeling so discouraged and now to the point of anger and then blame. I think that's why I choose that path. Can't say that I always do it, but it is a choice that I make in the moment. 

ACT: There's a lot of activism going on - fighting for or standing up for various underprivileged or deliberately downtrodden people groups. How do you be active and be an example and have that essential passion and fire without judgment? 

DT: It goes back to you only know what you know. So, judgment and doubt and all of those feelings are developed with you. We only all have the capacity that we have. What we do with it is a totally different thing. I think some people choose to use it and some people choose not to.

Activism is such a wide gamut. I feel like in certain times of my life I've been way more active and sometimes in my life a little bit more passive. I think fear gets in the way of activism sometimes. I always come back to it because I like to model or demonstrate what I believe in. And I'm not afraid to tell people that. But I also think it can show up to other people as something totally different. It gets really muddled and confusing when you go out into activism, though. Sometimes you're in people's face and you're in their way and then it changes the whole dynamic. And I think it's really similar to creating connection versus fueling disconnection. And I'm trying to create connection so I'd way rather sit down with one person and explain my feelings and listen to theirs and try to find a middle ground, so I choose those paths usually. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

DT: Yes, I do. But it also feels like a bigger question because I don't think that it has an ending on it. So, there's still a lot of searching in that. I think that I've had stages of purposes. My most recent stage would have been being a mother. That purpose is pretty grand. I never would have imagined how grand that would be. And [it] was totally way more mind-blowing and expanding than I ever thought. So, lately, that is what I've been pondering as my purpose as I'm launching two kids out into the world. And realizing that my world did revolve around making sure they were safe, giving them opportunities, and playing that role. That's pretty huge. 

But outside of that purpose, my main purpose probably would be being a member of my family and society and learning about myself - what I like and don't like - learning about people around me and knowing that what I was taught as a child is not necessarily the way it should be. Being really open to lots of different ideas about how people live their lives and deciding how I want to live mine. That might be kind of a selfish way to talk about purpose, but I think that just resonates.

One thing I don't like is material things; I like experiences. So, I'll spend money on experiences rather than material objects. I want that to be passed on to my kids and to be passed on elsewhere. I don't think we all need to be such a buying culture, but without judgment I know some people really enjoy that and they find value and success in that. I don't want to judge it, but at the same time I kind of wish we weren't such consumers of things. I battle with that part of my purpose. And I'm still seeking a lot of purpose right now and how I want to continue on and what that means. It's an everyday challenge. 

Kevin Kraft recommended both Dayna and her husband, Mike, to participate here. They both accepted and I actually scheduled an interview with Mike first, but we ended up talking for five hours without ever getting around to the more formal recorded portion.

JJ Riddell

Laura Grayson recommended JJ to participate here. Laura and JJ have gotten to know each other through JJ's friendship with Laura's daughter and she had great things to say about his community involvement. We had a wonderful conversation about affecting positive change and I found JJ's perspective on the matter, as an activated student leader, to be inspirational.

When I was 17, I was living in a bubble of extreme Christianity in an economically impoverished part of rural Maine. I know I was thinking about a lot, but I don't think it was about cultural phobias and racism and climate change and mental health. However, those are issues I've become aware of and engaged in since. And after talking with him, I am so curious to know what change JJ's generation will instigate as these are the issues defining this time and these are the issues they've grown up with. I'm sure JJ is a stand-out example of his generation, but my interaction with him did inspire some feelings of hope that there are more eager young folks looking to influence big change. 

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JJR: I'm JJ Riddell. I would describe myself as a student leader who advocates for student impact and student voice. 

ACT: Where do you get your ambition and heart for others? Why is leadership important to you? 

JJR: I think I get it from my great grandma Lois. She's still alive and kicking today, which is amazing. She went to UCLA way back when and she was telling me how she was handing out flyers for Rosa Parks - equal opportunity to sit wherever you want on the bus. And I remember by grandma was like, I didn't even think it was a problem until someone came up to me and told me that it was a problem. So I grabbed a stack full of flyers and I just started walking around the campus handing out flyers. And then from there I joined all these other civil rights clubs. So, I think just listening to her, how it just kind of fell in her lap and how then she used that to voice her opinion has always inspired me to do the same. Whether if it's just falling in my lap or if I'm going out chasing what I want to make a difference with, I always think back to that story she told me. And I just always try to do the same. 

ACT: What concerns you? What breaks your heart? What affects you personally? And then what motivates you to do something about it? 

JJR: Our community, we're all one, but then there's a whole bunch of different sub-communities and we're all different. And everyone who's a part of the community is different in some way. And when people don't accept each other for their differences is what breaks my heart. Sometimes when you look at someone, all you think is stereotypes that might surround them. And that just breaks my heart because people are too focused on what society might think of them instead of actually getting to know them. So, I just try to live my life the way that I want to and not have to worry about the stereotypes that surround me or don't surround others with stereotypes. So, when I meet someone it's just blank slate. It's not, Oh, you look this way or You're dressed like this or You have this type of background. It's more of just, Hi. I'm me and you are you. What's up? It's more just building a relationship instead of trying to think of what's already going to happen. 

ACT: Have you had experiences with this that have affected you personally?

JJR: Yes. So, I am gay. And there's so many different stereotypes that surround the gay community. It's like you're supposed to be flamboyant or you're supposed to dress this way or talk this way or act this way. And I don't fit into a lot of those things. So, when I do come out or when people do find out, they're like, Oh, but you don't dress like this. Or why don't you act like that? Or talk like this? Or do stuff like that? That's just not how it is. Not everyone fits into that category or not everyone wants to. And so, that's difficult. But then, also, I do put people in stereotypes and I just have to take a step back and be like, Oh, I'm doing what I don't want others to do right now. So, it goes both ways, I guess. Sometimes people view me [with] stereotypes and I can do it to others, but I just keep myself aware that it's happening. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

JJR: Everyone that I meet has their own story. I view people as their each special, unique story and getting to know them is awesome. And then also being able to share your story. So, individual to individual, I think there's so much potential to share, to relate, or to even argue - if it's respectfully. It's not just the community that we're in or the space that we're in, it's more connecting with people. I think that's where a lot of people kind of lose it because the connection can get lost because they don't push for it. So, I think individuals are about connections and then getting to know one another and then growing with or helping them grow or them helping you grow in some sort of way. So, connections and growing. 

ACT: Your grandmother and her ability to just learn about an issue and then be proactive about it and then her modeling that has been enough to influence you. That's pretty rare these days. We are hearing a lot about the differences that are splitting us apart and a polarization. Does that make you more motivated or does that depress you? 

JJR: When I first started voicing my opinion it was mostly about school funding. I went to a budget meeting because I was on a budget committee and I had a packet. I was the one that made the packets for everyone. And some old guy came up to me and said, You don't need this packet; I do. And just took it from me. So, then, as we sat down and I'm the one that's announcing the meeting and going through everything with a new packet, I look across the room and he's mouthing Sorry to me. So, those points make me sad. I'm a student, but I'm in a room full of adults right now, but they still don't see me as someone who can make an impact or whose voice matters because I might not have the proper education that they have or that they think they have or they think that I don't have. Those points make me sad and depressed because I'm not taken seriously for a subject that I am super passionate about. 

But then there's also points where there's adults that I know will celebrate the things that children do or the things that students do through advocacy. It's hard sometimes because you don't really know the crowd that you're gonna get. Some adults are super accepting and they want to hear from students and then some adults are the total opposite. But when I do get sad or I do get depressed, it just motivates me more to not feel that way - to find people who will listen or to kind of make people listen by going to those meetings and not having someone take your packet. Or little things like that to show that you're there for a reason and just because someone's older than you or just because someone might not view you the same way as them, you can't just let that affect you. You just gotta keep pushing through. And I think I get a lot of my motivation from the kids who are doing the same exact thing as me. We'll share stories and sometimes theirs are worse than mine or mine is worse than theirs and then we just pool on ideas - How can this go better? How can we do this differently? 

ACT: Do you find with your peer group that there's a lot of frustration and hope for change and passion? 

JJR: So, there's a lot of things going on in the world. And a lot of kids are finding their own thing that they're passionate for. I would say mine's education and mental health-related subjects. And then others might be climate change or more political or more in society and I think it's frustrating for a lot of kids because when they try to promote or advocate for it, they can't reach a lot of other people because they might have a different passion. I think some kids are frustrated because there's so many problems that not everyone can keep up. But when they do put on marches or conferences or something like that it does make an impact and I think they start to see it more. That's what happens to me a lot. I'll try to advocate in my community and it might not make a big difference, but then I'll go to a conference and I see people from all over the state come together to this one place just to hear me talk or just to hear others like me voice their opinion. So I think, Okay, if I can't do it in my community, maybe they can do it in theirs. 

ACT: It's interesting that you mention the different interests of your activated peer group preventing cohesion. I'm experiencing something similar in that there's a group of people who want to keep things how they are. That group seems unified and they're able to get quite a lot done. And the people who are advocating for change are disjointed. So, I have a theory that we're doing it wrong. We can't beat it one issue at a time because the issues are growing too fast. I think what's beneath the many different issues is the same root cause - maybe it's greed or selfishness. That's what makes a person be homophobic or litter or generally not give much of a shit. 

Is anybody in your peer group talking about generally changing the base levels of compassion so that we don't have to educate someone to not be homophobic and to not be judgmental about someone's right to have an abortion and to stop making racists comments or whatever it is? Or do you find that people are content to whittle away at racism and whittle away at homophobia and whittle away at environmental issues and whittle away at education and whittle away at mental health? 

JJR: I think that a lot of people are fighting for change, but then they can't look at the overall picture and see what's in common. I didn't really think about that until you just explained it. I think it's hard for all walks of life to find the common thing. Maybe it's not so much right now they're trying to change or make a big impact, but I think it's more as training the next generation on how to act. And teaching them to be nice to one another or view everyone as an equal so that way you don't have all these divides in society. Because there would be none if you treated everyone the same. Oh, well, I was taught, I was shown to act this sort of way, so that's how I'm gonna do it. 

And I think a lot of people who are advocating for things, they had to find the way to open up their mind or to do the things that they do because they taught themselves that. But I think my generation and generations surrounding me are going to be more of teachers and then future generations are gonna be more of the people who are actually influencing it. I think it's a process. It's gonna take a while. I think the root cause is hard to get to right now. It's gonna get there, though. And then everything's gonna be good. Hopefully. I like to say that my generation is being an example so that way future generations can live up to it. 

ACT: What does community mean to you and what does it mean to be part of it with so many differing agendas? 

JJR: I say community so much! Everything I'm a part of I think is just a little community, whether it be friends, family, at work, or just in town, or anywhere. Also, Redmond is super community-based, so I think I've always just lived and been raised in tight-knit community circles. Even if it's just with a group of friends, it's always a little community. Or at work - I worked at Dutch Bros and so it was a super hype, energetic community that I was always a part of. My goal in life is to find my community or find a community I can either raise children or live in happily. 

The number one people that I like to talk to are people that have different opinions or different views as me because I get to learn so much and so do they. If you talk to someone who has the same opinion as you, you're not really learning or getting new information. But, at the same time, I think it's hard to be respectful because you're so passionate about something and then someone's doing the opposite of what you're doing or taking away from the projects or the influences that you're having. But being able to understand and know the why is also important. That way you know how to interact with them and communicate with them and build that connection and they understand how to do the same with you. You're not always gonna have everyone the same. But if everyone treats each other as equals, but also understanding that we have different viewpoints and we have different ways of life, I think we'll be fine. You can't really get upset at someone else's viewpoints if they're not the same as yours, but you can learn to understand them and respect them. And that's what a community is about. 

ACT: As one example of a major difference, what has homophobia meant to you? And what does it mean to you that it is still so prevalent? How do you find the patience and peace in learning about the why behind that particular issue? 

JJR: I came out to my family my freshman year of high school but my whole community didn't know because I was scared of the stereotypes and I was scared of the homophobia that might be surrounding it, especially coming from Redmond, [which] is mostly, I would say, very conservative and set in their ways. But then also living in Bend and having Pride just a month ago and so many people there or seeing so many stickers... I can live in Bend and it seems like so many people are accepting, but then I also go to school in Redmond and live there, as well, where a lot of people aren't. 

So, homophobia was hard because when I came out to my family not everyone in my family was super supportive about it. So I was like, How can I tell my peers who I'm not even related to to be supportive and to be accepting if I don't even have family members who feel that way? So, it took a lot of just, Oh, I'm not gonna come out until I graduate high school. Or, I'm not gonna tell people because I don't want people to say things. Or, I don't want to be bullied. Or, I don't want people to view me different because I guess I'm a large community member, but I don't want my reputation to go bad just because people know that I'm gay.  One day I just said, Screw it! and I brought a boy to the school dance and then I just came out. And some people like to talk crap and to say rude things, but I think, overall, if you know who you are and if you know that what you're doing makes you happy, then you can't let it get to you. 

Sometimes I will hear words, especially in music, too, or phrases or things that they say - it does affect me, but I just can't let it get to me. There's no point in letting it get to you because then the people who are saying it know that they're having an effect on you. And they know that it's pushing your buttons. But if you jus take a breath and recenter yourself to who you are, then I don't think you should let it affect you or control who you are. And, for a really long time, I did let the idea of homophobia and people being rude to me shy and take away from who I was. And then, finally, I was just like, Enough's enough. I can't let other people live for me. I think it's more of that I don't really care part because you can't really care what other people think of you; you just have to care about what you think about yourself. I know it's kind of cheesy to say that, but it's very true.

I think coming out to my school and my community was a very big thing for me. Because, for the longest time, I didn't do it because of the things I liked to do within the student council. I'm not gonna get voted in for certain things. Or I'm not gonna be able to reach new goals because that's gonna be a barrier. But I think if it is a barrier, then it's their problem not mine and I can always just fight through it because so many people have before me. And so, why can't I? 

I have also learned that some of my best friends who I know have had opposition points about homosexuality have totally flipped. I came out and then the next day they texted me saying how much they love me and how much they care for me. I don't know why I was so scared when all these people love me for me. Just because there's one part that might have changed, it doesn't affect it. I think that's what made me feel comfortable in who I was and the people I surround myself with, too. 

ACT: Homophobia's not dead, right? You've still got obstacles ahead of you. And there's a major issue with Islamophobia. And we're still actively keeping black people down with the inappropriately named 'War on Drugs' and wrongful incarceration. Does it grow your compassion to have gone through something? Or did you have it already? And what can you do to help change this ignorance? 

JJR: Being a part of a minority group, I knew that there was certain things that we face as a minority group. And being introduced to state leadership, I got to meet people from all walks of life. My best friend on the board is Muslim and we just talk about [our experiences]. We're part of different minority groups but we're still facing the exact same thing. The compassion just comes from people understanding what I'm going through in a minority group and then also understanding what other minority groups go through, too.

I think a lot of the hatred comes from the stereotypes. And then media has a very good way of publishing and drawing attention to the negative stereotypes that come with it. So, that's what all people see. Instead of getting to know and building connections, it's more of, Let's watch the news and see what's happening - whether that be true or not. I think my compassion has grown through talking to other people in minority groups or someone within the gay community or whatever community that they're in - just talking to them and understanding that it's kind of the same battle or it's the same thing you have to go through every day. It just encourages me to make a difference for what I'm a part of, but then also be a support and to be someone that other minority groups can rely on - whether that be with the Hispanic... or with the Muslim community or literally with any type of minority group. We're all different, but we're all experiencing the same things. And I think there's power with that because we kind of know that we're all accepting of each other. I think a lot of minority groups are very accepting of other minority groups, as well. Finding compassion for that is just watching other people do it the same. And kind of finding joy and relief that you're not the only one doing it. And that the only way that they can keep doing it and that you can keep doing that is just to motivate and to encourage them and have them do the same to you. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose? 

JJR: I do, but I don't think it's fate or destiny or my calling or my birthright or anything like that. I found something that I love doing and why not just keep doing it? And maybe if I fell out of love for the work that I do today, I can find something next and then find my purpose within that. I don't think I just have one purpose; I think I have many. A purpose with my family or a purpose with my friends or a purpose with my life - I think there's many different things that I have a purpose for and what I can accomplish. It's not just one big one. 

ACT: I had an interesting conversation with Jared yesterday about hope and how maybe it conjures up imagery of wanting to avoid the obstacle or just wanting things to be magically different. We're not going to wake up tomorrow to world peace and acceptance of all walks of life. So, what gives you the energy to deal with the issues that we have and come out the other end? 

JJR: I think it comes from literally history class in school. You read and hear about all the struggles that people have gone through and all the things that they had to witness or were a part of and then you see how that's not how it is today. Or how actions like that are not how we do it today. Then you also think of the time it takes. I just draw from past events. Seeing the women's suffrage movement - it took forever for a woman to gain the right to vote, but now my mom voting is just a regular thing for me. Because it took time and it took people fighting and getting nos and getting yeses and having to march and rally and do whatever they needed to do for their cause. And I think so many people are doing the same and I am as well.

But the part that I think is unrealistic is that the change is just gonna happen overnight. It's gonna take time. And it's gonna take more people doing the same things for a long period of time to actually make it known and to make a change. So, learning from people in the past or learning from big leaders who are not with us today because they made an influence and you learn and get the foundation of how they did that. That's what I try to do. 

Laura Grayson recommended JJ to participate here. Laura and JJ have gotten to know each other through JJ's friendship with Laura's daughter and she had great things to say about his community involvement. We had a wonderful conversation about affecting positive change and I found JJ's perspective on the matter, as an activated student leader, to be inspirational.

Jared Anderson

Amy Hoag recommended Jared to participate here. He readily accepted and we made plans to meet at his home  - a serene spot on a creek just a little outside of Bend proper. We dove into a big conversation before we started recording, which didn't feel at all like a typical back and forth conversation, but more of a search and rescue - a mission to uncover some of the deepest of emotions. What is the anger? What is the sadness? What is the frustration? What do they represent and where might paying attention to them bring us? I could have spent the day talking with Jared. In fact, he even offered to just scrap the recording and continue talking. Fortunately, for the greater benefit, I didn't take him up on that. We did continue talking on record, though, and I encourage you to listen to our conversation below. I transcribed much of it, as you'll see here, but there are some really wonderful parts that are better suited for listening. 

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JA: I like the idea of saying I was the son of Patricia and Jule Edward Anderson and I lived this life in St. Louis in middle to upper middle class. Then, my life was defined in a large way. I am a person who was born in a fire of great loss - I lost both my parents. Though that doesn't define me, the event, the movement that happened afterwards within me... maybe I got shown a vicious, violent side of life that then awoke me to life and life's reality and how I actually can turn in to that. How do I actually engage life now that my parents were tragically gone? I started to realize, though it took many and still is taking many years to understand, that my priority is to include all aspects of life wherever I go. So, I would say who I am is a person who loves authentic expression. Feels like I find myself in difficulty and I love hearing difficulty from other people. And I love connecting with people and places where culturally we're not supposed to go. And I think, in large part, because I fucking got this insane experience when I was 16 years old of loss, my soul sort of woke up in a fire. And I carry that with me wherever I go. 

Like our conversation earlier, I love hearing your anger. And I love the conversation. And I love it when it's uncomfortable. Not because I want it to be, but because it is. And the discomfort is that we're not allowing a certain aspect of or elements of the conversation to come in. So, who I am is a person that likes to have a conversation and likes to include more and more depth, not because it's a novelty, but because it's essential. And because the resilience that we're asked to fucking have in this world - that we don't as a culture - is only going to come about the more we can include the shit that we will not look at. The shit that we don't look at, that interests me the most. 

ACT: What concerns you? What affects you personally as you make your way through your daily routines? And what motivates you to do something about it?

JA: I have a meditation practice that helps me see what I'm actually doing to myself. So, on the first layer, what gets me fired up is when I realize that I am excluding my own voice as a trend, a precedent, a habit. And there's a subtlety to what that means to me. I usually wake up in a sense of fear or worry. And that's kind of a leftover thing that I had when I was a kid. I was very much a pleasing person because in my primary relationships I had to be a certain way in order to get what I needed. So, when I sit in a meditation, in a practice, I start to notice, Oh, shit! I'm destroying myself in a way. In my musculature, in my body, everything is tense and holds it. So I get to start to see it more. That's why I love my practice. It happens every day. It's like an amnesia happens where I don't notice this assault that I have - this inner assault against myself. And then, subsequently, I walk into relationships, my partnership, where I'm unconscious if I don't notice it. And so what fires me up is I want to become more awake to what I'm actually doing and these past trends that seem to take hold in the moment. 

ACT: What does that personal awareness translate to? What does it do for the community at large and for humanity? 

JA: Beautiful question. I have a practice, too. I'm a life coach and I run groups. My practice - meaning my capacity to be aware of my own shadows, my own stuff, my own capacity to be honest - is the ceiling in any group I walk into. Meaning, I am expressing my own practice. So, I can't actually help someone or show up for someone if I haven't done so internally. So, to answer your question, it's literally everything. If I sit with you and I haven't listened to my own experience, I haven't felt my own feelings, I can't actually stay with anything that surpasses me. I can't stay with you. But if I can stay with me more and more, then our conversation can find more depth, more connection, and more energy. 

If I'm actually wanting to be an agent of change in the world, I'm gonna amplify whatever I got. And I can use this thing (picks up phone) and I could amplify the hell out of myself. But, to me, there's a lot of strange people out there amplifying what doesn't amount to a lot of grounded connection. It amounts to a lot of words. So, when I actually practice, if I amplify myself, which I do - doesn't matter if I'm on a small platform, a large platform - wherever I am, I amplify it. 

So, what bothers me in the world is that people don't - this is my own righteousness, too - have that priority. So, we got about the world like, I want to change the world and fuck you for doing this or that. I can't believe you're doing this. While that whole adage, which is cliche, but it's cliche for a reason, If you're pointing a finger, you have three pointing back at you… Personal accountability, to me, is one of - if not the - cures, but people don't find that as a priority. 

Let's say I find myself in situations where maybe I'm a mentor to younger people - and that always depends upon how they perceive me, not my fucking idea if I'm a mentor to them - I'm gonna teach them what I do. So, if we're actually wanting mentoring or healing or rites of passage, whoever's bringing it, how they are matters a lot. So much so. Like the head of any company. How they are, what their ideology and the belief system is, and how their energy aligns in their body matters. Just look at Trump. 

I know that not because of some statistic or something I've read. I know that personally. If I practice every day, meaning if I sit and do my mediation, I walk into a conversation like this and I have more available energy to host what's happening and be aware of what's here. But if I don't, I don' have as much availability. 

ACT: Why isn't this personal accountability on trend? What has happened to a personal value system or a code of ethics? Personal accountability is the fix to nearly all the problems, but it's easier to focus on everything else - on circumstance, personal gain, buzzwords, and whether or not you appear to be in the know or woke. 

JA: There's a lot of layers to it, but I'd start with what you just said which was it's easier. Taking aside that people are fucked up or lazy, we are actually creatures of finding the easier path. And there's something very human and okay about that. But that is not condoning. We don't have a net to catch us. We don't have a community - and community is another fucking buzzword - as it would walk in terms of supporting the energy of you and all of your depths, all of your surfaces, and all of you. So, personal accountability isn't of value in our culture and therefore it's not caught in the net of what we call community. We have a community which is strange. It doesn't have a priority around personal accountability. It's priorities are kind of all over the place, but they don't seem to be about catching a person and really seeing a person. 

ACT: Yeah, there's an easy road, but does it go where you want to go? The fact that it's easy doesn't mean it's the road you're even meant to be on. How does destination or outcome fall by the wayside for the sake of ease? 

JA: One, there's just a natural human tendency toward easy, sometimes being lazy, or I don't want to 'cause it's easier not to. That's normal. And then there's also - and this is the hard part - is actually, when we walk around in the world today, there's a lot of weight inwardly from our past that has been handed down and psychically in our energy, in our body, emotionally - it is fucking hard. There's an energy there. So when we're like, I just want to watch Netflix at the end of the day... 

This is also highlighting how important it is and how hard it actually is to step into more of a sacred vocation of I've got to work this way in the world, but it's understandable because it's hard. We're walking with the weight of unresolved trauma from many generations - cultural, large trauma, like in this country is slavery and homophobia and also the degradation of soul and community. These are all things that we carry in our body. So, when we choose in today's day and age to just find an easy route, at the first level it's got to be like, Yeah, I get it. Because I do that, too. 

So, calling people out, it's got to be kind of tempered with a sense of compassion. And we have to find a balance where we're not condoning a sense of going away or disassociating, but rather understanding it as a cultural symptom [of] much deeper trauma and pain. 'Cause when you call out a symptom with abuse almost or tirade, it doesn't change it. They just go deeper. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other? 

JA: We are all holding a very special, important part of this whole reality - this human reality. What you mean to me is a lot - everything, in a way. Everyone is everything and there's nothing excluded. It's not your race or your religious orientation or even your ideals; it's your energy and my willingness to meet you. So, it's everything. But there's a million everythings. The meaning of our relationships has to be something we're willing to unveil 'cause it's there. We're connected in a way. And that can either be some New Age proverb, which is bullshit. Or it can actually walk, in a way.

I love drawing on older cultures. They knew and they still know how to actually be in a community. But in certain cultural practices, like ritual practices, everyone's participation was everything. In Burkina Faso there's a culture that says, If two people have a conflict in the village, the whole village has a conflict. So, there's nothing too small or too big. We mean to each other our willingness to see that we are all connected. And that no matter what you're going through, it fucking matters. 

ACT: You mentioned everyone having a role. Is part of the challenge, then, that people have forgotten or have been made to disbelieve that? Have they forgotten their role? Or are they unaware of their role? Or have we through distractions trained that out of people? So now people are acting in ways that are detrimental to community as a whole because they don't believe in their own importance? Is part of healing community just reminding everyone that they matter? Not in this hippy love kind of way, but that they actually have responsibilities and roles.

JA: Community has to prioritize what is actually here and become skillful in addressing it, being with it. Not as an exclusion or a problem. Oh, you have a lot of grief? That's a problem because right now our priority is economy. Or today we're at work and so this is how we are. It doesn't mean you go to work and everyone's weeping. You have to figure out a structure. But community means, if it's an essential community, that we are focused on the skillfulness of being present to the dynamic energies within individuals and within cultures and that we respond to life that comes through rather than prefer the aspects of life that we like. 

To all of your questions before, we lost a lot of aspects of it. And we're fighting for that. And I don't think it's people's fault today that they don't remember how to be in community or that they don't know meaning or their own roles. And I think it's our collective and individual responsibility to find that. And what a tough time to do so. And what an important time to do so. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose? 

JA: Yes. In conversations like this and when the conversation is active, I can feel it more. There is a purpose in my body, in my life, and the more I practice, the more I can feel it. And so, how I live depends on how much I feel that. What's cool is the search of like, What is my purpose? is a question that's answered as I allow my energy to unravel. And I'll just focus on projects. When my energy slows down and I can feel it, it just goes toward what it wants. To me, purpose is the result of being willing to pay attention to what's here - internally, externally - and like an energy naturally plugs itself right in to where it wants to go. So, yeah. 

ACT: Sometimes it feels like we are inevitably headed towards a worse and worse and worse future. I don't see a lot of what we're doing as even a recognition of that or progress. It looks to me like we are taking the easiest road to the end - to devastation. And that might not even sound scary. But it's going to get super bad, right? Hate and violence and rape and murder and war and nuclear bombs - that stuff is all going to come with extreme pain like people can't even imagine. It's bad. It's already happening in places right now. Is it silly to hope to change that? Is it silly to hope to find the better way and to have compassion and build peace and live in community? 

JA: That means that we are going to go into a nuclear holocaust or an environmental catastrophe and while that may or may not happen, what interests me the most around this conversation is our capacity to feel what it's actually like to be alive now and to feel these things happening. And not go too quick into story of that means this and that means that. But our capacity to be resilient in a time when we need resilience directly depends on our capacity to be with - emotionally, physically, mentally in a coherent way - what's happening. Be with what's happening. So, hope is actually I want something else. And can I hope for something else while this shit is happening? And while this shit is happening, I'm making up a story and I'm prophesying what's gonna happen. Ironically, it sort of comes out and does happen. But that's actually in part humanity's incapacity to actually be with what's happening. And a lot of people are, but a lot of people in mass culture aren't.

So, I think, how resilient can our response be to this catastrophe directly depends on our willingness to perceive it, to understand it, to feel it. And you're right, there's some things that are just horrid. And we don't even know. We're sitting in Bend, Oregon - we're not feeling it on a daily basis, immediately. Like, starvation or drought in this crazy way. But we can still be here and be present. The word hope is interesting. It's bugs me in a way because it does seem like we're saying, Hey, the mess is over here and I want something else. 

A teacher of mine says, This problem is not in the way, it is the way. And only in our direct, non-judgmental but willful engagement of it will there actually be a way through with resiliency, with We can work through this. I believe this: we as human beings have way more capacity than we understand nor are accounting for. Your willingness to respect what you do matters. That you can actually account for what you do, that matters. 

Amy Hoag recommended Jared to participate here. He readily accepted and we made plans to meet at his home - a serene spot on a creek just a little outside of Bend proper.