Skye Kimel referred Krayna to participate here. It turns out that Krayna and I live nearby each other, so it was a treat to go to a home I have passed by several times and meet and chat with the resident there. Krayna met me with a big smile and promptly served me up a cup of hot tea and some bites of dark chocolate and a tour of her home. We sat on her sofa together and chatted about this and that until it seemed as though me might talk about everything before we even started recording. Then we dove in.
The following conversation is fairly weighty and existential. Our time together was very warm and sensitive and full of emotion and I am sure you will notice that as you read or listen below. If you are at all inclined to listen, I highly recommend it, as I've chosen to not transcribe in detail every conversational rabbit hole. It's also worth the listen just to hear Krayna laugh at some of my questions. Her's is a kind laugh and one that set the tone for our time together. It's a great pleasure to introduce Krayna to you here. Keep your eyes out for her as she will undoubtedly shine some light on you and your day should you encounter her. You can also be in touch with her through her website.
KC: Who am I? I ask myself that question every day. That is a question I find difficult to answer, to be honest. Who I am and what my roles are not necessarily the same thing. I'm in roles all the time. I have role relationships. We're in a role relationship right now. But I'm not my role. So, I ask myself all the time, Who are you? What is this? I don't know. The best thing I can say about it right now is that I feel like a self is a kind of kaleidoscopic experience of moving elements. I look for a core self and can't find it. So, I don't know. I'm a walking kaleidoscope. I do describe myself, however, often times as either a poetry instigator or a creative instigator. I do describe myself in terms of some of the things I do, but I can't really say this is what I am.
ACT: What concerns you about the state of the world and humanity? What affects you personally about how things are?
KC: Oy. These are mega questions. It is disturbing to witness the unbelievable degree of corruption that is happening — not just in the United States, but around the globe. I have goosebumps right now and people can't see me, but I'm tearing up. It's such a deep ache. The thought of how many public leaders — politicians — have completely lost, if they ever even had, a sense of being a servant for the public. And I mean that word servant in the best possible sense of the word. And how power and all the things power seems to imply for people take priority over the things that matter. Love. It's sounds corny or hokey, but it's true. Love, relational life. I guess I feel a grief or sadness over the degree of ignorance about that among people who are in spheres of influence... and the symptoms of that.
ACT: Do you feel incapacitated by that or is there something that it motivates you to do?
KC: Oh, I don't feel incapacitated by it. I really think of the whole world as a kaleidoscopic experience, really. Nothing’s here, even though it looks like it is. In my own contemplations and investigations, I can see things are not solid the way I think they are. And nothing exists here independently.
This is another avenue, but the whole idea that there is no such thing as inherent existence for anything or anybody because everything is rising co-dependently. It helps me to realize it's not a spiritual bypass — I know what that's like; I've done that — it's not a rationalization; it's just a way of... slow[ing] down. Nothing is what it looks like it is. There's something about that that is helpful to me.
The other thing that makes a difference for me is the use of the creative impulse. Charles Bukowski was a poet — hard edge, very unique kind of guy — a lot of people have tried to imitate him and it's really unfortunate. I think they'd be better off just stealing from him than imitating him, which is another famous idea I can't claim. He said, The thing that matters most is how you work through the fire. So, for me, that sense of grief or anger that can be evoked is something I find ways to work, so that that fire can be refined; the tears can be refined; so I can move with some measure of intelligence and integrity best I can. Like everyone else, I'm doing the best I can. But it matters to me that I pay attention to the body politic and how I interact with that and interact with people about it.
Some fires have to burn very hot and fiercely before they get tempered. I think the #MeToo movement's an example of that. The rage behind that — the outrage behind that — makes all the sense in the world. So, it's usable energy. I don't know; I'm kind of talking to myself when I say that. I use visual art; I use poetry; I read poetry and other things; I read a lot; I walk; I don't listen to the news all the time. I take significant breaks from it so that I can kind of just let my system recalibrate; not only from the nature of the news, but also the manic pace of our collective. It's nuts. And I don't function well in it. And frankly, neither does anybody else. You know? The question of How do I bring as much compassion in any given moment to bear upon this particular moment? is an orienting thing for me.
ACT: What do people mean to you?
KC: I don't know! Give me a moment; let me think about that. Well, I love people. I love animals. I love trees. And I love reptiles. I love old barns. I love the way a shaft of light falls across the floor. I mean, I don't think I separate people out from all that. I think humankind is endlessly fascinating and varied and contradictory and awful and wonderful and insane and brilliant. Remember what I said about the kaleidoscope? I don't like the things a lot of people do, necessarily, but I do love people as much as I love this — this moment, being here with you.
ACT: If community is our relationships with each other and the world we live in and if the vast majority of people consider their relationships to be paramount to everything else in life, why are we having such a difficult time considering those relationships? If relationships are what matter, why don't we take care of them?
KC: I can only humbly submit what I perceive in this moment, but I don't know. That's a huge question. I don't think of myself as an expert on it or a master of it; that's my little disclaimer. That I'm even being asked all these questions by you is kind of amazing to me because I'm thinking, What do I know? But we're here together, so this is kind of cool. Why don't we take care of relationships?
There are a number of ways to think about this. There's the psychological dimension. If we're looking at this question like a jewel with many facets, that's one facet. And there are many facets within that facet. And then there's the whole business of being an animal body — neurobiology. And then there's this whole other dimension — I'm reluctant to use this word — what I will just roughly call the more spiritual orientation. From the point of view of the autonomic nervous system, which has sympathetic/parasympathetic dimensions or branches, we as a species are fairly dis-regulated a lot of the time. The fight/flight/freeze response is connected to the reptilian brain — the oldest part of the brain; the brain stem. That nature of the reptilian brain... and no offense to reptiles... the symptoms of that include suspicion, distrust, fear; it's pure perception of threat and the pure desire to thwart that threat or survive it. People can see this in themselves if they stop long enough to ask, How's it going right now? The minute that threat response is initiated, no one's qualified to have a conversation. People become, of course, self-protective and defensive and highly reactive. And on that continuum — emotional, physical, sexual, psychological... the spectrum of violence to murder — at the low end, it's huffing/puffing, maybe mild criticism; as it goes up the spectrum it gets more intense. So, we're animals. A lot of us haven't been tuned into that because this is kind of a new element in consciousness for people in the scientific world and the world of psychology and the neurobiology of human relationships.
That's one part of why I think relationships are so challenging. You're with your friends or you're with your parents or you're with your kids, you're with your partner, your lover, whoever, your employer, your employee and they say or do something that is heard or seen or experienced in a certain way and it's like, Forget it. All bets are off now. People get triggered into their own defensive patterns. Which, I know this, of course, because I've lived it like everybody else has or does. I think there's a lot of need for people to become aware or educated about the nature of the animal body. That's one facet.
The perspective I have come to appreciate is that nothing and no one exists as a solid, independent, isolated entity. When I look at a person, I look at this body, I see there are all the parts and all the conditions that bring this into, conventionally speaking, reality. The flower is made up of all non-flower parts: the petals, the stem, the leaves, the roots. We use the word flower as a net that gets thrown over the whole thin. That gives flower the impression of being an independent thing unto itself. But if you snip off the head of the flower, you've got a stem and leaves; people don't call that a flower. They call it a stem. It goes on infinitely. So, nothing here is solid like I used to think it is. And I lived in ignorance of that for most of my life — ignorance simply meaning I did not know. The trick of the mind is so powerful. The ignorance of that means… my experience has been self-protective.
All those things combined make it very challenging for people to have the relationships they really yearn for, which brings a quality of, I can relax. And relinquish the image-management show that I've been putting on all these years so that you get to see me the way I want you to see me. Self-consciousness. It's taken me a lot of questions and a lot of time. And I'm not saying it's all done, but it's taken a lot for me to really sink in... to find myself feeling less and less and less dependent upon your opinion of me for me to find, I'm okay here.
ACT: You mentioned earlier that you are doing the best you can. I struggle with the idea that we are doing the best we can or with using that as an excuse for why we aren't doing better. Like you said, we aren't individual entities, but we proceed as if we are. Me first, all the time — and almost with no consideration of anybody else. The things that we do wrong are limitless and I would say we're not doing the best we can. None of us. Or am I wrong?
KC: I want to interview you! I don't think you're wrong and I don't think you're right. I can hear what you're saying. When I said that it was flip, yes. What I hear in what you're saying is the pain of that. The absolute pain that is involved or evoked by what you're observing. I can feel that, too. I'm understanding, I think, something beneath the surface of these words that feels very much [like it's] coming from a place of a deep humanity and a deep caring. I think a lot of people develop a kind of armor around that feeling of that ache and are walled off. So they don't have to feel or experience their own experience. I can say these things because I've done it. I'm not saying anything that I haven't myself experienced.
So, let me say it this way, which is not flip — when I think about what you're describing, I think about moments in my life when I've either felt injured or done something I think was hurtful and I come to see there are all these internal forces and external forces impinging in any given moment. And this is a kind of compassionate accountability for me. And it's been very important for me to find a way to think about my own experience/my own behavior in other people with that in mind. Not as an excusal. Because I'm doing the best I can can be an excusal. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes a person is truly doing the best he or she can in that given moment. But when it's used as an excuse or a rationalization or justification, that means that person or myself is dodging something about [our] own behavior or experience. I don't want to dodge it, though. You don't want to dodge it. I'd rather feel this than dodge it. That's my integrity and your integrity. I think it's part of our dignity to be able to be self-reflective. So, when I seek to understand the behavior that I perceive going on within or around me and I ask myself, What about the internal elements, external forces that are impinging on this person at this moment?, it at least helps bring about a greater understanding. And that doesn't mean I agree with the behavior. There's room for accountability here. It's part of the deal.
But I think self-deception is as old as the hills. We're all prone to it. I say that with no judgment. It's one thing it seems a lot of us share in common is the prevalence of our self-deceptions and biases. And when I think about all the thieves and the crooks that are running governments around the country, I do think about these things — the internal and external forces that are impinging upon them in the moment. Which isn't mutually exclusive with the fact that some of them... it would be good to see them in jail. But I don't feel like I can afford — and this is that refining fire — to hate and vilify without myself suffering the effects of that internally. It's a toxin that I can't bear. It's like that old idea — taking poison and waiting for the other one to die. But I know that I need to keep my internal system cleared out and to experience the profound, endless sources and experiences of joy in this world and in my own being. So, I'm not excusing. That is a way that I do my best to try and understand what's happening. And it's not easy. That's why I turn so often to poetry.
ACT: Will we accept responsibility and take action to move towards a better future?
KC: I don't know. Doesn't look like it. Do I know what's gonna happen? I don't. And when I say I don't know anything beyond this moment, I'm not being sly or facetious or obtuse or anything. I don't know. What I do know is this — this very moment. Does that mean I'm not gonna make plans to do what I'm doing later? No, I will. But I don't really know what's gonna happen. This is all speculative. I don't spend as much time there as I do with, What really matters right now, given the givens of the life I'm living within and can bring forth?
ACT: There's this idea of hoping or wishing for a better future. We claim to want it but it doesn't seem like we're willing to work for it. Click your heels together and wish for peace and harmony or dig your heels in and do it.
KC: That's easier said than done. You don't just do peace and harmony. Our conditioning is potent. From tinyhood, it's potent. It's not a small thing to pause long enough to even notice how many behaviors, actions, thoughts, and feelings are conditioned — robotic, even. Peace and harmony isn't gonna come from somewhere else. Where is it? It's not out there. I've done enough searching through my many, many, many decades to see none of the activities or relationships or substances that I engaged with gave me that. It's not out there. So I turned within for that — to investigate it. When I started to do that, I recognized how deep the conditioning us. Not only from within familial structures, which is the first training ground, but also school and culture and advertising and all of that. It's intense.
It takes dedication and it takes patience and curiosity and persistence to stop and really reflect on what I'm thinking and saying, believing, perceiving. I can question it. We believe things without question. I've believed things — all kinds of things — without any investigation whatsoever; just took for granted this is the way it is. Until I started to realize, Oh my god! So, I'm not underestimating the power of the conditioning of not only this one lifetime, but of generations. It's heavy and deep. We are not collectively encouraged to be contemplative or reflective. We avoid solitude. I'm saying we. It makes it sound like I'm sitting on some kind of throne somewhere. And I'm not. I include myself in the we. But the truth is, I've learned to love that — questions and solitude and contemplation. But we're not geared that way for the most part. Mostly the mission is get busy, get productive, get shit done. It's not stop, slow down, reflect on this. People are afraid of solitude. I'm not feeling I can sit in judgment of people because I've done so many of things we're talking about — I can just describe what I see.
I just feel for people, including myself. I feel for the condition. That's what I'm trying to say — the condition. The existential dilemmas, the conditions. More often than not, what people are doing and their behavior and their busyness — at least I can say I've seen this in myself — is turning away from my own experience. And what is it about my experience that is so objectionable that I need to find a way to evade it or project it or avoid it? And that is a heart-centered, central question. What is so objectionable about this moment that I want to do anything but experience it? Whatever it is that might make me want to get up and go to the fridge, or go get outside, or go buy something, or take a drink... that pause is such a gift.
ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?
KC: (Lots of laughing here) I'm sorry, but I just flashed on that movie, The Jerk, with Steve Martin and he's in the trailer and he's having his first sexual experience. You see the trailer bouncing around and he's like, I found my purpose! I found my special purpose!
This is my purpose right now. I stopped with the purpose thing a long time ago. I get it. I understand it. It is another one of those sacred cows, though, that I have to have a purpose here. And lots of times, in my own experience and in my work with other people and friendships and all that, the search for purpose, the thought of losing purpose, the thought of never finding a purpose — it's like looking for a soulmate. It's like an endless hope. And hope is always focused on something that is obviously not present right now. So, there we are again, evading the moment. So my purpose right now is this.
I have felt a lot lighter since years ago I realized it was just another concept that was not required for me to live a life of fulfillment and joy and goodwill and spaciousness and honesty. It was just not required. It just makes me smile. I know that's not a response that maybe a lot of people would cotton to, but that's okay because I don't care about that as I once did. And I love people and the world now in ways that I couldn't before because I relied on the validation from outside myself to be okay. And when that's gone, I feel a real freedom.
I don't know. I don't know what it will be like listening to this conversation. It feels like it might be a little whacky.
ACT: Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?
KC: Yeah. One last thing. On Wednesday afternoons I go downtown in front of Bellatazza — 1ish, roughly — and I hand out poems. It's poetry instigation. I take poems; I put 'em on a document. They're short. This week I handed out a poem that was written by somebody else. Next week will be one of my poems. And then the next week will be somebody else. Back and forth. So, if you or anybody else wants to come down and get a poem sometime... it's awesome to stand downtown and offer people a poem. I love it. I'd love for you to come down sometime. Say hello. Come get a poem.
PS. After our interview, Krayna asked me to include this poem as a parting thought:
Late Fragment
And did you get what
you wanted from this life, even so?
I did.
And what did you want?
To call myself beloved, to feel myself
beloved on the earth.
Raymond Carver (1938-1988) from A New Path to the Waterfall
Copyrighted material; for educational/therapeutic purposes only.
This was Carver’s last poem in the last book he published before he died of cancer at age 50. RIP, Mr. Carver, and thank you.