Christy Walker

Marcus Legrand recommended Christy to participate here. It took a few months for us to put something on the calendar as Christy keeps herself fairly busy with teaching at eight different high schools while simultaneously pursuing a Master's degree. I am sure had we met sooner, our conversation would have still been rich, but I can't help but be thankful we met when we did as I've lately started pushing a bit harder and asking more difficult questions during these interviews and Christy was up for the task. 

We talk about education, about inclusion, about our brutal history as a nation and our hope for a better future. I recommend listening to this interview as it is conversational and our passionate back and forth is easier to engage in through listening than it is through reading. But either way you take it in, I am sure you will be inspired. 

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CW: I am Christy Walker. I am a Latinx, cis-gendered, able-bodied woman. I have been married for almost 15 years to the love of my life, Alan. Together we have two wonderful dogs and we are the cool tíos to several nieces and nephews. Daughter, sister, cousin, friend, educator, equity champion. 

ACT: What concerns you? What affects you personally and then what motivates you to do something about it? 

CW: What concerns me the most is the lack of education of folks in our area. I don't necessarily mean in the traditional schooling sense, but I just mean that people are willing to be ignorant about issues that are going on. If you don't live in the particular skin, then you tend to not care about what other people are going through. 

In my job, I see how underrepresented youth are treated and the opportunities that are missed. The lack of representation they have, it's heartbreaking. If I am one of their only teachers that can relate to them as far as our ethnic backgrounds, that's really sad. Even curriculum, how it doesn't represent who they are - they tend to be cast aside as a quirky sidekick instead of a hero in a story. It could be so simple. Change a word problem in math so that maybe the name is Diego instead of John to make people feel included. It's just very sad to me that people are so closed off to understanding other people and understanding why that's an issue.

A lot of people will ask me, Why is that so important for these students to have their names or have someone that looks like them? They've never had to think about it. They've never been the only brown student in the classroom. When the topic of racism comes up, everybody looks to that student. They've never been the only person of anything in any area and so they don't understand. They'll never understand what that means. And, to be honest, I won't understand that either because of how I look. But you need to be able to empathize and relate with that and not just cast it aside as if it's nothing. People tend to think that people's emotions, when they're feeling hurt, that they're just overreacting or that they're just angry and they delegitimize what they're feeling because, again, they'll never experience it. So, I guess I'm sad about a lot of things. 

I think that people with privilege need to do what they can to help others that don't have that privilege. And I'm not saying to speak for them, but to help pave the way so that they can speak for themselves. Not step in and be the savior, because that happens, too - wanting to change everything for everybody. We can't do that. But what we can do is help people get to where they need to get so that they can be the change agents for themselves. 

I see in education how unsupported these students feel. I do feel that there is a lot more support starting to happen, but it's not there yet. And there's still a lot of resistance and people that really just don't understand why it's important. I feel like I see it all the time. As a Latina woman, I get that a lot. Oh, well, maybe you're not quite capable of this or that. And I feel very lucky because of the color of my skin and my accent you can't tell that Spanish was my first language. I don't get that quite as much. My parents have lived in this country for 40 years and they still have accents. And sometimes we'll go out and folks will start talking to them and they'll respond and then the people that we're talking to will automatically start looking at me as if because they have an accent they can't understand what's going on anymore. It's like every day you see that. For me, I see that on such a small scale, but I know that the students see it every day and they live with it every day. 

ACT: Why do you suppose there's this general need to try to be inclusive instead of our just being inclusive? Why are we in a position where we have to demand that people go out of their way to do what seems should be a natural part of being human? 

CW: Oregon's racist by design. It's not a mystery as to why it's so homogenous here. We're the only state in the Union that had a clause that said, No colored people allowed. That is a huge thing! So, folks weren't welcome here. Now that our demographics are continuously changing to show a bigger representation of what the world actually is like, there has to be systemic change that comes along with that. It's not so much about trying; it is about being. And you have to start somewhere.

When changes are happening and you get more folks coming to school that represent with a marginalized identity, you have to make sure that they feel welcome. And in our community right now, they don't feel welcome. A place like COCC, we consider ourselves to be part of the community. And a lot of folks come here and it's not a one-size-fits-all. You have to be make sure you're open and welcoming to everybody. And I think there's a big focus on that right now because there's a shift happening. There are more people that are coming to be educated. There are more people that represent with different identities. And so it looks like there's this big light on diversity and inclusion and there is because there has to be change. If we continue going the way that it always has been, then that means it's not welcoming. Right? Because that's how Oregon has been. I think it's just the nature of everything where people are just okay with the status quo. And it's not okay to be okay with that anymore. You have to call things out. It's not just this one random person that's coming in here; there are hundreds of folks that are coming here. 

I am an optimistic person and I believe that we can make change through education. I believe that the more that we educate people, the more that we give them opportunities, the better our society will be. And if we can start small within our small community here and then expand out, then wonderful. But this community needs to change. 

ACT: Why is it true that ignorance became the status quo? Why is that we're not just naturally accepting, inclusive, loving, kind? Maybe this is rhetorical or maybe you have answer. Our learning to be inclusive of one minority group doesn't seem to naturally  translate to our being inclusive of all the others. And somehow we have to start all over with each group. Why are we so determined to be so terrible? 

CW: That is a huge question. And you're right, it shouldn't be that way. We should just be able to be open and inclusive of everybody regardless of who they are, where they came from, what their gender identity is, any of it. We should be able to live that way. And we are born that way and then we're taught what we should prefer. We're taught what is right and wrong. 

Look at the doll test where they gave children a black doll and a white doll and asked them which one was better. They had students that were from the black community. They had Latinx students. They had all different types of students that were there - little kids, like five years old - and they were already identifying the black doll as the bad doll. And that's because that's learned. And why do we do that? Who knows? Because there is this hierarchy of, for some reason, white is better. I don't know where that came from. For some reason life got this terrible spin and now there's folks like us trying to repair it. And it is a huge task. It's terrible. It's very depressing to think about that. Why does life have to be like this when we could all just be together and we could all just love each other without these comparisons?

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

CW: I think that no person is an island. And you can't live life alone. We have to support each other and that's why we have to interact with each other. While the things that we do might feel so small-scale compared to the universe, it's important to do the best that we can with the life that we have. If you can make a positive impact, then you should. Personally, I feel really drawn and compelled to this kind of work because I feel like I've had it pretty easy, to be honest, in a lot of ways. Don't get me wrong, I've had my own struggles and my own share of things. But I also feel like I need to use the privileges that I have to help other people. Because we're connected. It's not fair that I get other things just because of the color of my skin. I didn't control that. I didn't earn that.

I feel like it's up to us to level the playing field so that we can all live in harmony. We have this one world that we're living in. How is it that it's okay to be battling each other over everything and fighting over everything? There's so much injustice. It blows my mind. What's happening in this world? How are people, for lack of a better term, so stupid? Or just so blind to things? And how is it okay to just live and not do anything about it? But I think that we're all interconnected. And what we do... you might not think that it impacts other people, but it does. There are chain reactions and there are things that happen. What we say and what we do affects others and sometimes in ways that we have no idea. So, it's important to be mindful of our actions and what we say and how we affect others. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose?

CW: I do. On the greater scale, I want to help change the world. But, you know, I think a lot of us do. On the smaller, realistic scale, I want to help improve our community. I want to help make changes in our immediate community and, like I said before, I think that we can do that through education. I think that when folks see that there are people out here that are really passionate about this and really care and that it's not just this surface thing - this one-off training and then I'm done - that it will be impactful. When folks start to see that we really are trying to make changes and that we really are responsive and empathetic to their situations, I think that's huge. I've been really lucky in my work and, again, I feel really supported by my work to be able to go into the community and make these kinds of connections and to provide opportunities for students. 

The feeling when a family comes to you and just says, Thank you. We never thought that our child would have this opportunity or the student is crying in your office because they can't believe that they got that scholarship, those are huge moments. Folks that never thought that they could succeed because their whole life they were told they couldn't, now they're finally being told that they can. That's a huge change. It's a shift. And if we get more people engaged in that and telling them that they can do that, it's gonna change things.

If people keep coming here... and this is what I don't understand is the resistance to that. You know what? People are coming here. They're coming. So, why would you create these barriers and these blocks and make our community this hostile place instead of providing resources to help people be productive members of our community? It seems so backwards to me. If we want to be this harmonious place, why would we do that? Why be so closed off and not appreciative of what other folks can bring to the table?

ACT: Why should we expect any different the way we founded this country was so atrocious? Why do we honor Columbus? Why have we just gotten a museum that's completely dedicated to remember the atrocities that we committed during slavery? It's unsurprising that we're so terrible because we've only been terrible. But why is there terribleness in the first place? Why wouldn't it be the same when all it's been since is just rewarding climbing to the top and elitism and money? There are so many issues that come from this that are unfathomable, but we're still doing it every day. We all, generally speaking, continue to participate in the system. And that is human behavior across all nations and across all histories. 

CW: Yeah, historically, these are patterns that we keep repeating. It just continues to happen. But without hope, then what are we living for? Then what are we working for? You have to hope for better. Because the alternative is what, to just be complacent with what we have? To me, that's not an option. And I think that there are other people like me that feel that way, too. It's shitty. It is. It's terrible. When you look at history it's hard not to be depressed about what's happening, especially when you see things being mirrored. 

It's difficult. And you're not wrong that we have been terrible as a whole, as a population. And there have been these terrible choices made. There has to be people that continue to fight against those choices, fight against the system, that are willing to make waves, are willing to be disrupters. I know a lot of times when people start to know me, they know when I walk into a room they have to be careful of what they say. And I'm okay with that. And I have lost a couple friends because of it and I'm okay with that, too. Because I don't want to be a friend with someone who isn't mindful, who doesn't care about other people. I think that there are a lot of us out there that are fighting the fight. And like I said before, without hope, then what do we have? And that's probably a little naive and I understand that, but, to me, it's what I live for - hope for change. Something's got to give at some point. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing? And what do you need to be more effective? 

CW: I think that we need more platforms to be able to speak out. I think that we need to be invited to the table. While you were saying earlier that this is small scale still, I think that we need more things like this. You said 140 interviews? That's 140 people that you were able to reach out to and connect with. That's amazing! We need more of that. I think we need more people to step up and [be] willing to risk discomfort and to step out and not be complacent and to turn a blind eye. For me, what I need is support in that. And I need for change. I need for people to be willing to be open to change and not be okay with saying that it's okay to have things the way they are. Or definitely not saying they want things to go back to the way they were in the olden days. Definitely not. And I think the only way to move forward is to move forward with positivity and not to forget the past because the past should inform what we do for the future, but to look at the past as a tool - as a resource to show us what we shouldn't be doing to move forward. 

Marcus Legrand recommended Christy to participate here. It took a few months for us to put something on the calendar as Christy keeps herself fairly busy with teaching at eight different high schools while simultaneously pursuing a Master's degree.

Jess Leblanc

Tina Bollman recommended Jess to participate here. We met at her home that she is in the middle of selling and as I pulled up she and her son, Henry, were in the yard picking up pine cones. We chatted in the driveway for a few minutes and then ventured into the home that is now staged for selling and absent of all of her and her family's possessions. I can only imagine that felt a bit strange for Jess. Nevertheless, it didn't take us long to get comfortable with each other and start talking about the nitty gritty. 

We met on July 3rd and I tend to feel pretty fired up around the 4th of July. I don't need to get into all the details here, but I dislike the holiday because of what we've deliberately chosen to ignore and how we've chosen to rather grotesquely celebrate the day. I'm on a roll of asking more poignant questions, anyway, but today I chose to dig even deeper, or maybe even pry, with Jess. 

We talk about racism and slavery and wrongful incarceration and our president and the #MeToo movement and uprisings and revolution. Not to spoil the surprise, but we didn't come up with the answers. I am going to continue believing that talking about it is a good start, though. 

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JL: My name's Jess Leblanc. I go by Jess. At this time in my life, I'm a mother and a physician. I try to think of myself more as a healer sometimes than as just a doctor in the biomedical profession because I do try to treat people more holistically. But on a deeper level, when I think about who I am, I actually am trying to get a little more away from that and kind of separate more from my ego. I think more about how am I here - how am I taking up this space - and going deeper, really more as energy and space that comes into other things in my life - my environment, the people around me. And really, in the last year, I have put more thought into how I put that energy out to people. So, I am light. I am strong. I am present. Some of those things come to my mind more now than when I was younger or when I was doing other things in my life. 

ACT: What concerns you? What breaks your heart? What affects you personally as you make your way through your daily routines? And what motivates you to do something about it? 

JL: Well, I'll tell you a little bit of one of my core values and that was based in my anthropological studies. This idea of participant observation - thinking about how to learn someone else's perspective by really participating in what they experience. You can't really fully understand someone until you experience what they experience. I think I learned that when I was 18 and I'm still trying to figure out how to do that all the time. 

I'm a white woman, born into privilege. I feel like I'm seeking suffering sometimes. I'm really seeking out how to understand all the suffering that has gone on in order to make our country possible. So, suffering on the backs of slaves and immigrants. And that is really difficult to understand. I don't think I'll ever fully feel or understand the trauma that those people went through and that has been passed along to their [descendants] that are here now and that are still experiencing a lot of trauma at the hand of government and the police force. At the same time, I want to try to celebrate in the solutions of those things. I don't think we're really even close to healing from that. 

I think there's some drastic solutions out there, like reparations for people whose ancestors have experienced a lot of trauma and who have died and suffered under slavery. And people that have been wrongly incarcerated. Our national community of African American people, I'm just really sad at how they've been treated - at how we continue to demonstrate racism. I see it on the backs of cars, still, driving around town. And I'm just completely shocked by it. I wish somehow I could have more influence over helping people heal from all of that. I think about it on a daily basis. I listen to things about it. I try to read about it. I try to teach my kids about it. And I'm not sure what else to do. I mean, we have pictures of slave owners on our money. Every day, we look at their picture. I'm completely just flabbergasted that we're not doing more. To get my opinion on it is just one opinion and there's a full spectrum of opinions on it, but it is something that isn't talked about enough. It's really kind of hidden. It's gruesome. There's gruesome things happening on a daily basis that we just sort of sweep under the rug. And I have a hard time with that. 

ACT: If you have this feeling of sadness or shame that we just continue to not apologize and not make things right, what can you do? Communicate with your children or set the example or be a good doctor - are those things making you feel like you're doing something? 

JL: I think that that's evolving for me. Probably in the last 15 years of my life I've focused more on healthcare for all. So, having a lot of equality in healthcare and always working in a place where no one is turned away. That's fulfilled in the sense that where I chose to do my residency, where I chose to practice out of residency, where I chose to work now - we see people of all socioeconomic status, all types of insurance. And, really, community health centers are the only places you can go and know that no one's getting turned away. Smaller practices can't afford to take the uninsured or Medicaid, so community health centers do have this ability... they receive federal funding to serve the whole community. So, in that way, I feel like the choices I've made in my practice do serve all people. And then also a very conscious effort to maintain that from patient to patient. So, making sure I can speak Spanish or making sure they have an interpreter if they need it. 

I don't want to go on too much of a tangent here, but there has been, through history, a lack of attention payed towards patients that have experienced trauma and how that affects their health. Fortunately, now there's a lot more knowledge about that and how patients have been traumatized by the medical care system - especially minority populations. So, the more we can make that a welcoming, non-judgmental, calm, understanding environment where we can establish trust and know that patients are going to receive the same type of care from me no matter the color of their skin, no matter how much money they have, that's really at the core of my daily practice. It's really important to me. It's part of my mission. So, it's not on a very grand scale, but over years, I'm touching hundreds of people and hopefully that point is coming across to everyone. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

JL: I'm on a big love kick right now, so I do try to, as much as I can, keep myself open to having a loving, open presence. And so, I really do want to promote love between people. I know that sounds a little bit vague and optimistic. In times of conflict or stressful situations - in line at the grocery store with a bunch of people behind me, I could easily be rushing to find my card, but if I just stop and look at the person helping me and say, Hey, how's your day going? then there's this connection that I find really satisfying. I think they do, too. If we can all do more of that, then we meet more people and I think we gain something from it and we can give something to them, too. 

ACT: When your approach of showing people love and being soft and kind doesn’t work, how does that make you feel? And what can you do about it? 

JL: My intuition is, related to a project like this, is actually to get those people behind the mic and really ask them the same types of questions to understand where they're coming from. Not to glorify it in any way because it doesn't align with my beliefs at all; I think it's really toxic and negative to growing a cooperative, creative community. I do think, as I said, being born in a place of privilege and now being even more privileged in a leadership position as a physician, you have to speak up in the times where you're seeing something that is wrong - where there is racism happening, when there is bullying happening. And those things are not always really obvious in the beginning. So, I, in my day of working two jobs and helping keep the house together and my three kids and all these things, I have to be really mindful and present to recognize when those things are happening and I can make a difference and speak up and say something. Because, often times, the subtle racism or the subtle bigotry... I'm not going to be able to track down the guy that's rolling coal, but I am going to be able to hold up a peace sign. And I may end up seeing him in the doctor's office a few weeks later.

So, it's important for us to stick to that and keep speaking up for people that maybe cannot or don't have as much say in things. I think it's really important. Right now, for me, to stick up for those patients of mine that are not as accustomed to our culture or not as accustomed to our language and make sure they know what their rights are… I do that probably on a weekly basis. So, I can be kind and loving and accepting of them, but I also need to call the right resources in to get them what they need. 

ACT: Killing them with kindness, which is what you are saying, often doesn't seem to be enough. It's such a good idea and sentiment, but it also seems to be rather ineffective against sex trafficking and our president and dirty politics and the republicans fleeing the state so they don't have to vote, and domestic violence and heroine addiction. There's got to be more. And I was hoping you had the secret. 

JL: It's not something that I have come to just on my own. I think I've learned the most from my patients, honestly. And my patients that have really struggled and can tell me straight up what has helped them. And specifically my patients that have opiate use disorder and who have basically been treated very poorly because of their drug addiction, once they've had some sort of recovery and are healing and are in a different space, can come to me and say, You were the only person that sat here and accepted me where I was at and didn't treat me differently. 

I agree that we need an uprising. We need something bigger than just being kind, but I do really believe and I've seen that one of the solutions is to be just open and present and kind and loving to wherever the person is at - whatever is there in front of you. I have patients that do not hold the same beliefs I do, but if I can say, These are my beliefs and I'm still gonna be here for you and open and kind and treat you, they actually might change their mind. I know that's not a quick solution, but I do think over time, when we can be in these leadership positions and we can give to people, that you can see people's minds change. Trust has to be established. 

But on the other hand, I think some major reparations need to be given to the [descendants] of slaves. Some major money and resources and sentiment from high leadership government positions needs to be given to people so that folks can become more equal socioeconomically. There needs to be some voting and laws around how to help people heal and recover. This is going to keep going on. This is necessary. We made a feeble attempt at trying to give tiny parcels of land to native people after we raped and pillaged the land… I can go and on. We need to start talking about that. We need to put that on the table. We need to understand that our capitalist society is built on this. And we have not repaid our debt in any way.

And so, we are not going to change people's minds until we do; until they feel it in their pocketbook; until they feel it in their daily life. If we put ourselves completely... if we really try to meditate and close our eyes and think about what it is like for those people that are not born into privilege - are not white, middle-class folks - then maybe we can come to more understanding of how to help people, how to make things more equal, how to avoid those people being victims of violence and incarceration and struggle. I wish I had the magic answer for you. Our conversation is part of it. 

ACT: What does community mean to you?

JL: Community is everywhere I go. I wouldn't give it a name. Sitting here with you is community. When I listen to the radio, the story I'm hearing, I feel part of that community. When I'm watering my plants, I'm like, Here's some water. Thanks for the oxygen. I feel a connection to the Earth and the plants and the food I eat. I don't have a strong sense of an enclosed space as my community. It's really open and broad and going even outside of the world to the universe. We're all made of these atoms and space and we are all connected. We are all really this energy and particles that are influencing one another, for sure. We're all part of that. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose?

JL: I do. Isn't our time up yet? I do think my purpose is to connect with people and life in general - plants, animals, people. I think that is probably my purpose. I feel a real sense of peace and focus when that's happening for me. It feels authentic. I think that's organic. It can move in and out of projects or connections or things that make me really joyful and things that can make me really sad. I don't know if I can put more words to it than that. 

ACT: What gives you hope for a better future? 

JL: Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of hope... I mean, right now, the direction things are going, the word better I'm not sure about. I probably more often than not think about how it's so great that we get to be here, but this is not gonna last. Just because of the way the environment is being treated, the way we haven't been able to get along in so many ways. It's so sad to say that. I'm sorry. Because I am an optimist. I am a really positive person, but I have had to come to a place when I sit and think about things that, in a broad future, I don't have a lot of hope right now. That could change. I hope it changes. I have hope that my hope changes. 

I still feel optimistic in my day-to-day life, just in being in the present, because it feels good. I feel good when I can connect with you sitting here talking. I feel good when my son and I can be out here taking care of our plants and animals and being together and talking about things. That keeps me positive and happy. When I do good things for people, that makes me feel good, too. We both get something out of that. I like that. But a better future, I'm not sure. I just try not to get depressed about it. It's easy to get really sad and down about those thoughts and I can't. I have to just keep trying to connect with people and create small changes. Having kids, having young beings around, helps me. 

With the political situation, with having children, with being on the path I'm on, I have sought out more of a spiritual connection, somehow, which I've never had before. And I think with meditation and some forms of Buddhism, I have found a little bit of grounding in suffering. Everyone is suffering; we can all sort of relate to that on some level. I don't identify with the word hope so much. Things are just the way they are right now. Maintaining this grounding and being open to change and putting out positivity and understanding that we're all connected - those aren't solutions, but if I live that way I'm hoping the momentum of that will just keep flowing out. But I like this conversation with you because you keep challenging me on that. Hey, that's not enough. And I think you're right. 

Tina Bollman recommended Jess to participate here. We met at her home that she is in the middle of selling and as I pulled up she and her son, Henry, were in the yard picking up pine cones.

Alli Miles

Laura Grayson recommend Alli to participate here. They are colleagues at Ruffwear and that's where I ended up meeting Alli. We sat in one of the private meeting rooms and chatted while the rest of the office wound down for the day. Alli's dog, Riggins, sat in for our chat, but didn't have much to say. He's probably heard it all before…

I'm pretty much constantly trying to find ways to grow this project and make these questions more poignant and cut to the quick of the mess it seems like we're living in and I'm starting to feel as though I might be getting closer to making some substantial changes to this format. So, for this interview, I did dig a little deeper and I was so happy to find out that Alli was willing to talk about some of the hard stuff with me. Her big heart is obvious and it seems as though she wears it right alongside her skepticism that we'll be able to figure it all out. I tend to believe that the more we name our fears and doubts and the more we talk together about how to make the world better, the greater our chances of succeeding. So, I just wanted to say thanks to Alli for joining me in that process today. 

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AM: My name's Alli Miles. I've been living in Bend for just over ten years. I would describe myself as someone who is very driven and passionate. And I love connecting with people and bringing people together. But, at the same time, I'm an introvert, so that's kind of a weird mix. I enjoy and appreciate connections, but I wouldn't want to go to a social gathering or a networking event or something like that - that would make me cringe. 

ACT: What concerns you regarding humanity and our interactions? What breaks your heart or makes you sad? What affects you personally? And then what motivates you to do something about it? 

AM: The things that heartbreak me are what I perceive as senseless violence. No, it's not even I perceive it; it's senseless violence. The shootings, the war, the news of Sudan, the news of a woman being shot in the stomach five times and then charged with homicide of her lost baby. Those kinds of extreme acts of violence all over the world break my heart. 

And the school shootings, in particular, just bring me to tears. I went to Virginia Tech. I wasn't there when that shooting happened, but I had graduated just before, so that one, in particular, hits close to home for me. For that event, I think about a place where I spent four years of my early 20s. I absolutely loved it. I loved the people. I loved the university, the culture, the community. And then to see such awful violence was just devastating and it was heart wrenching. Every time I hear about something like that in the news or I read about something like that, it just kind of all resurfaces and it just breaks my heart. 

I would say I'm motivated when I believe I can make a difference and I can make an impact. If I don't think that my voice will be heard or my action will be felt, then I'm not as inclined. And sometimes I do it anyway. I'll make the phone call, send the letter - that sort of thing. But I look to our local community as a place to make a difference as opposed to trying to make an impact on a national or global scale where I feel like I probably just get lost. 

ACT: Do you think there's progress being made on that particular issue of mass shootings? And how does that make you feel?

AM: I don't really think that progress is being made. I think it's great that young people are much more vocal about it than they've been in the past. And I'm inspired by that and that makes me feel hopeful. I don't really have any hope among our politicians and government. I'm hopeful that it's possible as young people come of age with voting and hopefully younger people coming into politics. And I don't know if that's even the answer, but it seems like that's where we have potential. That's where we pass laws, so it seems like the obvious route to change. 

ACT: I'm not opposed to the law changing to make things like that harder to accomplish, but I think the easier way to resolve the issue is just to communicate to people in an effective way that what they're doing is unnecessary and unproductive. Why do you think people are resorting to things like this? 

AM: Yeah, that's a really good point because it's so much more than just a gun law. It's easy for the conversation to go to that. What is wrong with our culture that this is even a thing? I trail run and sometimes I get pissed at mountain bikers that don't yield. They're supposed to yield to hikers and runners and they don't. Normally it's fine, but sometimes it's frustrating or annoying when I have to keep jumping off the trail. Instead of saying, Hey, mountain biker, just so you know, I have the right away... there's a thought in my head that's like, What if they shoot me? And that's just a random example, but that thought's in my head. That's a reflection of our culture that we're all living in. And you never know because stuff like that does happen and it's easy to brush it aside and say, Well, I'm sure that wouldn't happen to me, but then you hear about it happening. What is wrong with us? 

I could go on and on and on with what I see as problems with our society that could all contribute to the state of anger and violence that we live in. I think that people are not present. They're rushing. They're busy. They're stressed out. They're overwhelmed. They're angry. They're spending too much time on computer screens. On and on and on. Who knows what else? Undiagnosed mental health issues caused by war, trauma that's just not dealt with. All of those things. 

ACT: What do people mean to you? What does that individual mountain biker mean to you on the trail? Or your running friends or coworkers or people at the bank? What do we mean to each other?

AM: I think that it's so easy to be wrapped up in our own worlds and be oblivious to our surroundings, including the people that we interact with and impact. And it's really hard to know how we're impacting people in our daily interactions. When you don't know someone or you're just kind of in your own world - say I'm running down the trail and a mountain biker goes the other way - it's easy to not even look at them, not acknowledge them, and then who cares what happens to them or who they are? But I find that when you really  acknowledge somebody - look at them in the eye, say hello, observe them - then you're just a little bit more connected and then they're another human and they're just like you. 

I think of the grocery store as another place where everyone's kind of rushing a lot of times. You just want to get your stuff and go to the shortest line and get out of there. I've had some pretty incredible experiences in the grocery store. I can walk to the grocery store in my neighborhood and sometimes I walk down there in the morning and forget my wallet. One morning I was going through the checkout and I realized I didn't have my wallet and the woman in front of me offered to get my groceries. I was just blown away. I was so incredibly moved by the gesture. We can't all turn to the person behind us in line and pay for their groceries, but that impacted me in a really positive way. 

Showing a little bit of kindness and just acknowledging somebody - giving them a smile, just taking a moment - when you do those kinds of things or when someone does those kinds of things to you, it brings you into that present moment and you're actually having an interaction and a connection with somebody. It's incredibly powerful and it's such a positive experience. Versus somebody that's annoying you when you're driving or whatever and it's easy to just think of them as this other being that is a total asshole. It's easy to dismiss people that way or dehumanize them when you're not having an actual interaction with them. 

ACT: What does community mean to you? And what does it mean to be part of one with so much disparity, inequality, and disagreement?

AM: I think it starts with showing up. And that means, again, being present. Paying attention, listening to people, acknowledging them as fellow humans. When you're doing those things, you're already engaged to a degree. You can’t stick your head in the sand when you know somebody you care about is hurting. Or it's a lot harder to do. I think it means slowing down a little bit and taking the time to actually listen. That's something we don't do enough of. 

As far as a broader community, caring, getting involved... it all ties together. If you're awake and you're present and you're paying attention to people and you're listening to what they have to say, it's impossible not to care. And if you do care, then it's impossible to not become involved and try to make things better. For most of us, that's in our nature. I feel a sense of community when people come together and they show each other that they care in whatever way. That could be just being there and acknowledging that we are all part of this humanity and that we are equal. We're all equal as humans and we come from different places and we don't have to agree on everything. We don't have to have the same perspective - it's not in our interest to have the same perspective - and that all of those things that make us different are a good thing. When we come together and acknowledge and accept the things that make us different without dehumanizing each other, that is community to me. 

ACT: I've been running into a lot of this theme of taking care of yourself first. People stop listening to the news because they don't want to be bummed out. Or they worked really hard so now they're just enjoying it. Taking care of yourself is really important and you have to be on top of your health and find ways to have some mental peace, but it seems like people are chasing the total culmination of having achieved health and wellness and wealth and only then they will be capable of helping others. But I don't think that's an attainable goal because as we grow, we discover more issues and challenges or we get bigger or more expensive desires. Do you have any thoughts on why there's a general resorting to apathy in this chase for personal contentment?

AM: I've heard the same sentiment that you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of somebody else. You have to love yourself before you can love somebody else. And I do also agree with that basic sentiment. I feel like that's separate than this chasing health, but I see what you're saying. I think that there can be this health and wellness as a status symbol or a social media thing, which is kind of the same. And that, to me, is more about vanity than actually true health. I could be totally wrong, but, to me, people that are seeking a holistic, healthy life - which means healthy mind, body, spirit - are probably less likely to be apathetic than people who are chasing health for an excuse for the $10,000 mountain bike or the $2,000 paddle board or the six pack abs on Instagram or whatever it is. And I can see the apathy there. 

I've also heard a lot of people, including my family members, say they don't listen to the news anymore. I can understand that, but I disagree. I think that we have a responsibility to listen to the news and not just passively. I think we have a responsibility to be informed and to inform ourselves in a well-rounded way. I listen to NPR every morning and I trust NPR, but I don't rely on it solely as my news source because they're not going to catch everything or some things might still seem skewed.

We can't afford to be passive and apathetic and be angry at how things are. I think a lot of people are that way. And I don't know how to shake them out of it. It's totally fine to go to music festivals and drink beer and have a great time, but also recognizing that that's not making the world a better place and we all have our responsibility to do what we can. Because nobody can just change the world and make it better on their own. But we can all do a little bit. I really believe that. And we have to. And I don't know if I believe that that's actually possible or that it will happen, but I think that we all have to keep trying and encouraging each other, too. 

I don't know how we steer our culture away from the vanity and the status symbols. It seems like that's something we've always had in one form or another. And there are voices out there that say that stuff is meaningless, that stuff doesn't equal a happy or a healthy life, and maybe by sharing those stories and spreading those ideas is one way. But there's always going to be those people that drive Hummers and roll coal and put bumper stickers on there car that say, I Hate Priuses. I don't know how we counter that other than just trying to keep countering it... 

ACT: What if it was possible to change the world for the better or at least make some substantial changes en masse? What would it take for you to buy in or believe it or have that hope? 

AM: I think it would have to be a grassroots movement. I don't think it's something that's gonna come down from a celebrity or a politician. Maybe a grassroots, counter culture... that type of thing exists, but it's in little pockets. If that could become a broader movement... I don't know. Maybe something like that. I think I would become hopeful when I saw something like that, like a broader mass movement of people saying, We're not satisfied with how things are and we want it to be different and here's what we're doing. Or just doing it. And I don't know how that would come about. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose? 

AM: I do. Not all the time. Sometimes I feel lost. But I feel a sense of who I am and what gets me excited and fired up and I feel drawn to that and driven by it. And I think that I find a sense of purpose in pursuing that even though it's not always a specific thing. I don't know if my work at Ruffwear is my life's purpose, but something in creativity and the written word - I find a purpose there. 

ACT: It sounds to me like you live your life according to some set of values or you feel a responsibility towards being good or affecting positive change. Where does that come from for you and why does it get ignored or disregarded  by some of the people that, when we're being judgmental, don't appear to share that? 

AM: I do have a desire to be good and to be good to our planet and to the people on it. And there's always an opportunity, of course, to do better. But I do really try to be a good person and be a nice person and have a positive impact on the people around me. And I think that that comes from my parents. 

My mom was a school teacher. She's retired now. And she's incredibly generous, just giving of her time and her energy. Always helping. She's one of those people that just gives and gives and gives. Much more so than me, but I admire that and am inspired by that. She's very sweet and she's sensitive and she's kind. And all of that's very genuine. It's not for any other purpose than just because that's how she is. And then my dad - he sees the good in people. And I'm inspired by that. And he doesn't judge people. And I've learned a lot from watching him. 

I think that those things get lost when we're stressed out or dealing with our own problems in life and we're looking for somewhere/someone else to put them on. We want to blame other people, compare ourselves to other people, They have it so easy. Blah, blah, blah. We ended up passing judgment on people. And I think that all of those sentiments have a lot more to do with what's going on for us in our own internal lives than they do with that other person. Because if you think about a time when you're feeling on top of the world in whatever way that may be - getting back from a run and getting caught in a thunder storm and having all the smells and the colors and just feeling this joy - then you're not going to judge other people. You're not going to look at someone and think bad things about them. You're way more likely to assume the best about other people. 

So, I think that we get caught up in our own stuff. Everybody's dealing with something. Everybody has issues. But when we get really attached to those things, whether it's our own vanity or self-image or mental health issues or financial issues or work stress or whatever it is, then we're much more susceptible to treating other people badly. Or taking it out on them or projecting our stuff onto them. 

ACT: What gives you hope for a better future?

AM: I'm gonna sound old, but the young people. Anyone that I meet that I see is a good person, is trying, which really, when you think about it, is probably most people. We all have pretty big networks of friends and family and we would probably say that most of our friends and family are good people that are genuinely trying. That gives me hope. Especially when friends and family who are good people are not sticking their head in the sand and are making the effort to educate the people around them, have hard conversations with the people around them, ask questions, get vulnerable, go deep. Those kinds of things give me hope. Anytime I can have a conversation with someone and get really deep - that definitely gives me hope. And the young people, too. Always the young people. 

ACT: Do you have anything to say in closing?

AM: I think that it's so easy to get caught up in all of the negative things and all of the heartbreaking things and it's important to not ever be content with those things happening and not really ever let up not being okay with those things, but at the same time, hope is essential. Having hope is absolutely essential. Otherwise, we're just gonna all succumb to the bad stuff. That doesn't sound very hopeful. It's more than hope, too, but I think as long as there's hope for something better and a willingness to go out on a limb and take a risk to make things better, then that's all we can do. 

Laura Grayson recommend Alli to participate here. They are colleagues at Ruffwear and that's where I ended up meeting Alli. We sat in one of the private meeting rooms and chatted while the rest of the office wound down for the day. Alli's dog, Riggins, sat in for our chat, but didn't have much to say.

Campbell Dixon

Ashlee Davis recommended Campbell to participate here and described her as a "pure ray of sunshine". That's high praise, but after meeting Campbell, I'd have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. Campbell's desire to make the world better by smiling at others is a gift. Combine that with her efforts in volunteering and she ends up being a powerful force for good. The world needs more Campbells, but I can imagine that she is actually creating more just by her positive example. Some folks act in ways that serve as a contagion. That can be good or bad, but here it's all good. 

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CD: I'm Campbell and I would describe myself as caring, kind, and fun. 

ACT: What concerns you? What makes you sad and affects you personally about life and humanity? And what motivates you to do something about that? 

CD: A big thing is people being mean to other people. I'm way more mature for my age than some other kids are in my grade, so I think that's part of it. Seeing other people being mean to each other hurts me because I don't know why. I just don't get why. I would like to fix it, but some things aren't as easy to fix as others. Especially when I'm only 15 and I think I can do a lot more than I can. Because I feel like people don't like to listen to younger kids. 

And then another thing that makes me really sad is the climate stuff with climate change and plastic. Plastic is one of the biggest things in my life that I want to change. I'm part of this group that does community service. We meet every Wednesday and we do a bunch of community service projects. And we've done stuff in both of those areas like stop bullying and other stuff like that. So that's how I kind of make me feel like I'm doing something, which is pretty fun. I love to try to make a change. I don't like when people say climate change is a big deal or bullying is a big deal but don't do anything about it. I like to try to find things that I can actually do about it instead of just watching things about it, instead of being sad about it. So, that's really what motivates me is actually trying to find something to do about the problem. 

ACT: Have you had your own experiences of being bullied or is the sadness you're experiencing just from seeing it done to other people? 

CD: I have experienced it. More when I was littler. I haven't been bullied physically; more just emotionally. And one of the things is because I look different than a lot of people. I kind of stand out because I have a disease called alopecia areata which makes my hair fall out. So, I don't have hair. I'm also brown. And I live in kind of a not diverse place. It's getting more diverse I feel like, but when I went to school there was only a couple other people that had darker skin, which was kind of weird because I would get made fun of when I was littler for looking different.

But when I was really little I just didn't care. I was just a person that wanted to be me. I wanted to play on the playground with my friends and that's all I wanted. I didn't really care if people didn't like me for who I was. I feel like I was really young when I accepted myself, which is a pretty cool thing. When I was seven, I went to one of the alopecia areata conferences and that was the first time that I really realized how accepting I was of myself because so many people there would wear wigs. So many people there would always wear hats. But I have never been really afraid of being me, which I think is pretty cool. Because a lot of people have a really hard time finding that. I think that really helped me. But now it makes me sad when other people get bullied because I know what it feels like. So I just try to help those people that have been bullied. 

ACT: There seems to be a lot of people that maybe still haven't come around to accepting themself and are taking it out on other people. What does it mean to you when you have a world full of adults that are still exhibiting this bullying behavior? 

CD: It makes me sad. The saying I really love is you can't love anyone else before you love yourself. You have to love yourself before you accept everyone. People need to spend time realizing who they are and what they want to do. People don't really get that time to really accept themself for who they are. We're all different, no matter what. And nothing's gonna change. If you dress a different way, if you do all this stuff to try to fit in, you're still not gonna fit in because everybody's different. 

ACT: So, how did you figure it out at such a young age? Do you have a secret? 

CD: I don't really know. When I was little I had a lot of challenges with looking different and being adopted, too. And I just realized I wanted to be me. I don't know. I just have a positive attitude, too. I think that helps a lot with everything. I also had troubles in school with reading and speech and all of this other stuff. So, I think having a lot of challenges when I was younger made me overcome them really fast. I lost my hair when I was three. So I've had people staring at me. Little kids ask, why don't you have hair? Since I was at a young age having all these things, I kind of found out that it's easier just to block all the negative out really early.

ACT: As you make your way through your daily routines, what do people mean to you, individual to individual? 

CD: My family means a lot to me. On a day-to-day, every day, I make sure to say I love you to my parents and my sister because they're my family and I love them a lot. My biggest thing is when I see strangers I like to smile at them or say hi. Because you never know what their day was like. They could have had a really bad day; they could have had a really great day. You don't know anybody's life if you don't know them. I like to smile at people because I feel like smiling makes someone’s day better. One little thing. That's one thing you can do to help the world is to smile. Because it makes other people smile and it might make people have a really good day. 

Or telling people thank you is also one thing I really like to do. I always say thank you to my teachers at the end of class. That's one thing I never forget to do because they have such a hard job. And most kids in high school don't listen... I think being a teacher is a really hard job. I love saying thank you because they took their day and their time to teach us what to do in life and how to learn all these skills. They do other things not just in the curriculum that they're supposed to do. One of my teachers likes to tell us stories every day. And I think that's really cool. I hope that makes an impact on them. To be a positive person, maybe that makes other people positive. 

ACT: What does community mean to you? What does it mean to be part of community with all these differences of opinion? 

CD: Community to me means that we're all different in all of our ways but we're all still one. We all live in the same place - the world - and there's different communities in that. I think the word community means all of us working together to all live our life. But we're all still human and we're all still there. We're all a community in different ways. Sometimes you might not feel like you have a group or this or that. But if we tell them that they are part of our community, I feel like it would make them realize. It might take a while, but I think they would finally realize, I can do stuff, too, to help our world be better. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live a certain way or do you feel a responsibility to affect positive change? Do you have some feeling inside you that is guiding you towards the decisions you make? 

CD: I do definitely have a sense of purpose. I do kind of have a career path that I would like to do, but I have so many things in that career path that I would like to do. And most of it is to help our community. I want to help change the world to be better. I love to volunteer. I volunteer in lots of different ways. Volunteering sticks with me more. There's either volunteering or getting a job. A job gives you money, but volunteering gives you experience and puts a smile on my face. And it makes me feel like I've done something and I love that feeling. This summer I could get a job - I'm old enough to - but I'm deciding to do more volunteering work. My friends always ask, Why do you do that for free? And I'll be like, Because it's what I love to do. I do have purpose and that's really just to make a change in this world for the better. And even though it's something little, it's changing something. 

ACT: What's your favorite way to volunteer? 

CD: I am doing this thing called Camp Fire and I've done it since I was in first grade. We teach kids how to live in the wild by themself; we teach them how to build fires; we teach them what to do when they get lost in the woods; we teach them how to use compasses; we play games - we love playing games and getting to know each other and meeting new people; and songs - we sing a lot of songs. It's helping kids find their spark. A spark is something that you love to do or your purpose. That's what we help kids try to find. I love it and it's fun. 

In Camp Fire there's this other group that I did all year this year called Teens In Action. There was a group of five to eight of us all year and we would do things like game night at old folks' homes. We worked with the Alzheimers area and they loved it. It was funny to hear their stories about their lives. One of my favorite things is to help with the homeless community; I have a big passion for that. We used to go to this community place for homeless people where we would make food for them. We would cook lunch and dinner and breakfast. We got to talk to them about their life and we got to treat them like normal people. I feel like a lot of them don't get treated like they're normal people. We would just treat them like they're anybody else - like you're just talking to your best friend. One of my biggest passions is to help other people. And seeing other people smile is my favorite thing. 

ACT: What's one of your hopes for the future?

CD: My hope is to change as many lives as I can. 

Ashlee Davis recommended Campbell to participate here and described her as a "pure ray of sunshine". That's high praise, but after meeting Campbell, I'd have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. Campbell's desire to make the world better by smiling at others is a gift.

Amy Hoag

Big thanks to David Hopper for recommending Amy here. And big thanks to Tucker the dog for providing some very soothing snoring sounds in the background of this audio. 

Amy and I had a great chat before the interview. I think that time before the interview allows for a significant level of trust and vulnerability to come out during the more formal reordered conversation. Amy's interest in her personal development and growth so that she can better serve and care for others is inspiring. It seems that we can often get stuck in that first phase of caring for or loving ourself and might not get around to that next phase of caring for others. I actually believe we can do both simultaneously and I got the impression from Amy that that is what she is deep into. 

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AH: My name's Amy Hoag. Who I am, I'm not sure my name necessarily represents that. I am a young person with a lot of different parts. I think there are parts of me that are older than my age and there are parts of me that are a lot younger. Before you came in here, six-year-old me was definitely really present and available. And then there's old lady me in there. And who are all of those people? I am someone who is really creatively driven and is also really driven towards helping others and hearing other people. That's my passion in life. I'm a studying counsellor. I like meditating. I'm a storyteller. I love singing and making music and being in nature. Doing ceremony is really important to me. That's who I am. 

ACT: What concerns you? What breaks your heart, makes you sad, or affects you personally as you make your way through life? And what motivates you to do something about it?

AH: I like that you use the word concern because it doesn't directly [connote] to bad or good. I feel that about a lot of things. I feel really concerned about power. Power is not inherently a bad thing. It's not inherently a good thing. And it is such a tool. Similar to a gun almost, I feel concern whenever it's around. And that's where the comparison to guns ends because I think power can be used in so many different and beautiful ways. And that's really cool and incredible. And what has been concerning me a lot recently is that power is not being used that way on the whole in our culture. And within my community of white people, generally, it's not being used well. In my community of cis-gendered people it's not being used well. Yeah, and even in my community of queer people it's not being used well. I've seen it in my school process. Being in the Master's of Counseling program at Oregon State, I've seen power be really misused. I've misused power. And I see that as being the root of a lot of issues. 

I have a lot of concern about race issues right now and what's happening with ICE on the borders and throughout our country. As well as with black bodies and human beings who are being damaged by what in my circles can look like just a light conversation about politics. Just knowing that I have the power and the privilege to not know the names of every trans black person who's been killed recently because it doesn't affect me the same way it affects others. That's power that I don't do anything with and I could do something with. 

And I see that a lot in Bend. So many people have power and privilege and either don't know that they have it because of being oppressed or marginalized in some other identity or know that they have it and don't do anything about it. 

I'm concerned about community. I think that because most of the people who live in America now don't belong on this land - we stole this land in a pretty brutal way - we've lost a lot of our culture. For example, technically speaking, I'm native to the US because I've never lived anywhere else, but I am not the first native people and my nativeness is dependent on my people having stolen and beaten and raped and killed the people who are actually native to this land. And yet, I can't go to my ancestral lands and say that I'm native to them because I've never been there. My family's not connected to them at all. And that would be in some way still culturally appropriative. I think a lot of people find themselves in that position in this world. Where it's like, Wow, I don't have a home. I don't have a culture. And so we steal it from others. And I'm really concerned about how we're gonna get past that and stop stealing and also find a culture that can be our own and not cause harm. 

ACT: What can you do about it?

AH: That's kind of the question that I've been wrestling with a lot over the last couple years. I am white and I am privileged. I'm cis-gender and I'm privileged. And, as an individual there's a lot I can do. I do a lot of racism work in my practice. I do a lot of humility work around accepting when I'm wrong and not putting that on others. And I do a lot of work in terms of trying to call out my communities when they're being problematic and do work together to be better. And I see that as such a small drop in the bucket. And so, recently, I've started to look at what I can do on a bigger level. And part of that is what I want to do as a counsellor in creating groups that talk about community and building it instead of just people coming to a counsellor to get all of their needs met for community and mental health and disclosing whole parts of themselves that they don't bring to their communities or to their families, even. 

I think that maybe my role as a white person is to try to support the healing of especially other white people so that they stop hurting others. And to offer any support and services that I can to people who don't fall into that category and who want help or even just a white person to look at them and be like, I am so sorry and I am here to serve you. 

There's probably some stuff about that that is problematic and I'm still learning about it and trying to figure out how I can best play a role here that is supportive rather than me just putting myself on a pedestal and trying to make all of these changes by myself. There's probably some ways that that could turn into white saviorism really fast and I don't feel educated enough yet to really step into this is what I can do and this is how I can actually help. So now it's just my personal work and how I can be as aware of myself and how I show up in this world as possible. 

ACT: What do people mean to you, individual to individual, as you make your way through your daily routines? 

AH: For some reason when you asked me that question I felt tears come in my eyes. It's a hard question. There's a cynical part of me that says that people are all parasites because that's how we show up on this planet. And no other part of me agrees with that assessment because I see all of us showing up. I have a client right now who is openly racist and openly sexist. And, as his counselor, I don't get to talk about that. It's my job to hold space for him and to hear him and to see him as a person. And in doing that, I have discovered so much beauty - even in people who are just really, really hurt and choose to turn around and hurt others. Just walking around and seeing strangers laughing with each other or talking to each other or standing next to each other is such a gift and reminds me of my humanity and also gives me hope. 

I think we are so unique and the footprint that we leave on each other and on this Earth is so unique and terrifying in a lot of ways. And people are what I want to center my life around. So there's something about them and the beauty and the history that lives in every person that is so appealing to me and so beautiful. Even when I want to just be done with people, I find myself returning to them and myself, probably through them. 

ACT: What does community mean to you and what does it mean to be part of one with so much chaos and so many differing agendas? What does it mean to you to be a person that has empathy and compassion and deep concern alongside people that seem to not? 

AH: I think sometimes I idealize old communities in a lot of ways because they're distant from me and I don't have to look at some of the shadowy, hard parts. But I think about small villages that were really based in ritual and practice and rite of passage and their version of community was not about just showing up when things felt good. A part of a lot of those communities was people going out into the world as children and nearly dying from the elements to determine what their gifts were to bring back to the community. And if they survived, they got to come back and offer these beautiful gifts and services to their community and to receive gifts from their community. And if they didn't, that was just what was accepted. And that's a really hard and scary thing and yet that was community for them. 

And I think about and connect that to my own experience of community as being any group of people that are able to show up completely authentically with each other and have it be okay even when it doesn't feel good. I eventually want to find myself in a community where I can be a person who does really bad things and be called out and be supported in growing and not be ostracized for that. Or be ostracized as part of my learning experience and be able to come back and share my experiences and what gifts I have to offer that I didn't see before. I don't think it's community to just be able to have lighthearted conversations and talk about things that are easy. 

I think about my experience with my partner, David. I think what makes our relationship so beautiful and wonderful to me is that we have incredibly hard and uncomfortable conversations with each other a lot. And I have never experienced so much growth in a relationship and I've also never experienced so much discomfort. And that's kind of what I want out of community and what I view community as being - pretty uncomfortable a lot -  because humans, like you were saying, we have different belief systems and different ways of being and it's kind of chaotic. And in that chaos, we're able to grow if we really step into it instead of just avoiding it or ignoring it. That's what I look for in community. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to be a certain way or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

AH: Yes. Yeah. There's a lot in that question. That's something that I really struggle with especially as someone who's going to be a counselor. A false narrative that I have is that I need to somehow be so enlightened and really therapeutic all the time. Yeah, and if I do that, I turn off a lot of the pieces inside of me that are not that way. And I've spent years of my life walking around having no awareness of those parts of me and just kind of letting them die. And the rebirth process of those parts is really painful and hard and scary and also makes me less effective. But somehow I convince myself that if I am this certain way I'll affect positive change and everyone will love me and it will be great. And that is almost always the opposite of what happens. But I feel that pressure and that sense to be that way. 

Separate from that, I do feel really responsible for not necessarily affecting positive change at this point, but I feel really responsible for dealing with my stuff and with the stuff that my ancestors brought that I carry on. At this point in my life, it's my goal to just work on that and I'm pretty sure I won't even get through it all. But my family has experienced a lot of trauma and I think it's come from our line of ancestry. I think it's come from us hurting each other. I don't want to continue that and continue that lineage for my children to have to deal with or the communities that they harm to deal with. And I also feel like I have a lot of work to do to not only not continue it but to help heal and work through what has already happened and what I've benefitted from and continue to benefit from. That's more what I feel a responsibility to at this point. 

ACT: Is there anything that you wish I had asked or anything pressing on your mind that you'd like to get out?

AH: There's a type of therapy called IFS or Internal Family Systems and all of the work is based on this idea that we internalize and create these different parts of ourselves that come up at different points. So there can be a part of the self that's the protector and will fully show up and maybe was created when you were seven and you felt unsafe around your family and someone had to come and save you and that was your internal childhood hero. I think that we create the communities that we've experienced inside of us and we act those out on the world. And it can look really bad. It can look like racism and it can look like oppressive behavior. It can look like manipulation and codependency. Whatever we've learned, I think we take it in and we actually let it become us. It's interesting to me to watch how everyone's internal communities affect the external community that we live in together. 

Something that I'm learning about and working on right now for myself is identifying all of the unhealthy communities within me that I need to prune and change and adjust and make space for so that I don't bring their wrath on the community outside of me that I really wish to be a better member of. And my hope is that people become more aware of those parts of themselves as well and start noticing, Wow, my internal community is fucking up my external community in a big way! That's important to me and is important to what I'm doing for myself right now. 

Big thanks to David Hopper for recommending Amy here. And big thanks to Tucker the dog for providing some very soothing snoring sounds in the background of this audio. Amy and I had a great chat before the interview.

Hunter Dahlberg

Paul Arney referred Hunter to participate here. And we played a long game of back and forth over the course of a few months as we tried to schedule our meeting. It turned out just perfectly, though, as it tends to. We chatted outside Hunter’s blacksmith shop, Orion Forge, on a rad piece of steel furniture for a while before heading into his office for the recording.

It was such a pleasure learning about Hunter’s past and how he ended up here with his shop and about some of his future plans. I’m sorry you don’t get to enjoy it as it paved the way for the sincere conversation you’ll read or listen to below. This interview has a decidedly different tone than many and one that carries with it some raw honesty and maybe even some admission of not getting it right some of the time. Among a long list of enjoyable characteristics, it is Hunter’s genuine introspection and humility that I found the most endearing. 

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HD: My name is Hunter. I describe myself as a sensitive blacksmith - blue collar craftsman. 

ACT: What concerns you about life that affects you personally? And what motivates you to do something about it? 

HD: I think the most overwhelming concern I have right now is for our environment. So, the first part of the question is easier for me. We're living on a planet that's changing radically. I see that in certain species are behaving differently. And I think these violent acts that humans are committing... something's wrong with the species. They're doing things that aren't normal. It's all indicative of this planet that's unwell. So, I worry about that.

But what do I do? I don't. I have two motorcycles and a snowmobile and I burn diesel in my work rig and I burn gas in the other rig. Yeah, well, when those issues come up, I'll vote always for the environment and I'll engage in discussions about why I think we should save the Endangered Species Act or the Wilderness Act or whatever, but I don't know what I do. I just add another worry. None of us are doing anything. I just kind of pile it onto the initial worry. 

There's a melancholy or there's a feeling in my stomach when I think about it. It's hard to separate it from the current state of politics in America. There's this overwhelming depression. It feels like a darkness or a heaviness or a weight. So, that affects me. When I wake up and I listen to the news, which I try to do every day because I do want to be informed, I feel this sadness. That's the immediate effect. That's the tangible effect on my life. I don't know if it makes me a different friend or partner or son or uncle, but I know it's there. 

ACT: As you make your way through your routines, what do people mean to you, individual to individual? 

HD: There's always a measure of using people that I know and love as a mirror. I do get to learn about myself through these people. At least a handful of my closest folks have children now, which is something that I don't have, and so I get to see how they interact and how they are raising these little people and I get to hang out with the little people and, I guess, feel what that feels like. It almost fosters a feeling of regret in me when I'm hanging out with the youngsters 'cause I'm not gonna have kids. At almost 50 I just don't feel like I want to do it. 

I've really grown pretty bad at not letting my temper get frayed from strangers. It's part of living in Bend and seeing the town that I moved to change and feeling that there's a different onda or vibe in town. A person that I don't know that drives in a way that I don't think is cool will get me so angry. I'm much better now because I made a decision thanks to my girlfriend. That's my mantra now, He's doing his thing; I'm doing mine. So, some of the people in town, what they mean to me, You need to not judge them. Why are you investing your energy in this person? Who knows why they're driving like that? Who knows why they were curt to the checker in front of you? Maybe they just got diagnosed with cancer. Why are you judging them immediately? And why is it so close to the surface? I've got very little reserve of tolerance. 

The strangers that we meet... I get to be nice. I get to be a nice person to them. And that's just something that is important to me. I get to be polite. I get to be thankful. I get to be genuinely appreciative and look people in the eye and say thank you. I get to slow down long enough to do that. That's something I do pretty well. That's the way my dad raised us. Every interaction is a legitimate interaction.  I can let they guy that's been yapping on his cell phone the whole time while the checker's doing his or her work... I can let that go. I can try. 

I've always had help in this shop. And that's a relationship that I'm now learning about. I've been an employee a lot in my life. I've been an assistant guide. And I've been the lead guide. And that's really the most of my professional interactions with people, which makes up a lot of my interactions. Well, now I have this job. And I have the clients and I have the vendors, right - I deal with the steel guy, I deal with the screws guy, the rivets guy - and the customer, but then I also have these employees. And I, for all the wilderness teaching or leadership teaching I've done, only really sorted it out in the last year and a half. This is a leadership position. I feel like I need to be better and continue to work on my leadership with my employees. I need to not be as frustrated as I can be. I need to be just a better boss and more thankful and more appreciative. We all just want the pat on the back or the pat on the head and I can forget to do that. So, my employees have meant learning how to, essentially, be cooler and more appreciative and thankful. And boy, in turn, when I behave that way it just feels better at the end of the day. 

I was incredibly rude to some people recently. They're new to Bend. They bought the house next door to one that we're renting. And you know, they paid $800,000 for it. They come from a city. And they immediately started pointing out things in the neighborhood that they thought weren't cool or weren't right. Then, this winter when we were doing all that shoveling, everyone on the street came out to shovel. Except they didn't ever shovel. At any rate, not my favorite people. And I got back from a mountain bike ride the other day with one of my neighbors that was shoveling with me and these people were out. And I got out and I ignored 'em. They were out and they said hi to my neighbor and he was talking to them and he was being genuine. And I pretty much got my bike off the car and I went inside. I was just in this haste. I didn't want to deal with them. I went in and I told my girlfriend I just did that. And you know what? The very, very, very, very first thing that I thought about when I woke up the next day was that. Why didn't I say hey? Why wouldn't I extend that... that's not how I was raised. Saying hey and answering a question and being pleasant and then going on inside would have been less energy than worrying about it then waking up and thinking about it first thing in the morning. Okay, I'm 49 - another life lesson. I didn't take it to the point where I'd go up there and apologize for something like that, but the next time I see them I'll give them the time of day. So, those people mean that to me. Whatever that means. Those people can help me be a better person. I don't want to be the thing that I see happening to Bend, but I just was to them. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

HD: I don't know. Maybe that's my problem; maybe I don't. Maybe it's the lack of the sense of purpose that makes it feel overwhelming and that I can't affect change. I don't know if I do. I woke up thinking about me being rude to my neighbors... maybe that's where it starts or maybe that's where it ends. Maybe it's just my purpose is to be a nicer person. And I don't have to behave that way and I can behave nicer and maybe that's all I do. I'm not driven that way. 

I'm involved in a couple different arts organizations and I've been on the boards of those organizations. It wasn't a mandate. I chose to run and was elected to be on these boards and will do so again. Well, that's a sense of purpose. But again, it's my little community that I chose. It's easier to recognize the need to be part of that community. I guess I do have a sense of purpose for my little chosen communities. I don't know how it relates to us as humanity or even us as America. It all feels out of my control… short of voting. 

I went to a very liberal college where social responsibility was a constant theme and it was an environmental school, as well. The idea of stewardship and working hard to protect and preserve and save and educate about the environment is what we did, and so it's appalling that I feel so disconnected from that now. 

It's all according to plan, right? That apathy, which I think is what I'm describing, is probably predictable for the other side of the equation. They know that people are gonna be apathetic as long as the TV still gets all those channels and the beer stays cold in the fridge. I say it sarcastically, but it's working for me. I haven't waved the sign on the street corner to wake up. 

ACT: What keeps you going? How do you make meaning out of this whole thing? 

HD: God, I feel so shallow... these deep questions. I don't know! It really feels like I come to this workplace that I love and I feel gratitude that I get to do this. That I found or created this life. Work sustains me. And the people that I love. That is an important part of my existence is spending time with the people that I've grown close to and that I love. Some of them have families and getting to be in that and part of that. And sharing meals and space and adventure with a relatively small number of loved ones. It's the folks that I've seen no reason not to grow close to and love that sustain. Coupled with the work, I think that's enough. 

ACT: I want to give you an opportunity to put last words out there if you feel so inclined. 

HD: I really appreciate the opportunity to get to talk about it. I don't have enough of these types of conversations. Maybe this is the thing that changes... well, certainly it's gonna change me because I got to talk one more time about treating my neighbors the way I treated them and I'm gonna take away even more of that. Maybe it's conversations like this that happen more and more and more and this model is used to force us to think about some of these things and get to examine the ways in which we respond to some of these questions. I appreciate the opportunity to have a real interaction, one that feels like it has some intention behind it. 

Paul Arney referred Hunter to participate here. And we played a long game of back and forth over the course of a few months as we tried to schedule our meeting. It turned out just perfectly, though, as it tends to.

David Hopper

Emery referred David to participate here. And I am so thankful! David proposed meeting in a park with some snacks, but I had to nix that for the practical reasons of audio recording, so we instead met at his home. It took about five seconds for us to hit it off and we basically had a mini interview before turning the recorder on. We talked about our childhoods and our jobs and our feelings about many of the things. David's heart for others and his sincerity and hopeful questioning of the world were evident within moments of chatting with him. He's what I refer to as "a keeper" and I am sure you will find that to be true as you read or listen to our conversation. 

Just as a reminder, what you'll read below is a synopsis of our conversation, but the entire thing is in the audio file. 

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DH: My name is David. I describe myself by what I want to see in the world. I would say that I'm a utopian, but a utopian who also does not blind themselves to the way that things really are - kind of a realistic utopian. I'm really concerned with questions of - there's a very deep personal element to this right now - how people make meaning in the world. That's something that I've been struggling with and really trying to think about a lot. Both on a personal/interpersonal level and also a systemic level, I'm just really fascinated by the way humans take their basic organism-level needs and kind of intermix them with their social needs and intermix them with their philosophical, higher level actualization needs and how all this stuff plays around and swirls around in this kind of amazing and terrifying way. Yeah, I guess at the highest level, that's what I want to devote my life to understanding and working with. 

ACT: What concerns you? What affects you personally as you make your way through the days? And then what motivates you to do something about it? 

DH: I can tell you on a personal level what I am most anxious about most of the time, which I think is indicative of the bigger system concern; I'm anxious about isolation. I'm very concerned about pursuing connection with other people. That's a word that is thrown around quite a bit, but it's kind of the focal point of how I make decisions and what I have historically sacrificed in order to focus on maintaining relationships with people that I care about and that matter.

There's a huge lack of social infrastructure when it comes to maintaining meaningful relationships with people, especially as we age. It feels like there's so much working against us. Living in this economic system, living in a single-family home - there are so many boxes keeping me from truly being with other people. I try as hard as I can to show up to relationships in a bridge-building way and I'm trying really hard to figure out a way to do that on a professional career level that will hopefully also pay me somehow, which is just kind of an ongoing line of inquiry. 

I think that humans are fascinating. I think that humans are the most wonderful and the most frustrating parts of life. I see this in myself. I'm capable of doing some really amazing things, but I'm also capable of being really small and mean and petty and it's so easy to get into a transactional place - I'm hoarding, I'm marshaling my scarce resources and I am expecting to have to fight for every scrap of whatever. It's this very animal kind of situation that I think people don't really question a lot of the time. I think the way our world is set up, that is the reality for a lot of folks. It takes continued conscious effort to try and stay out of that - for me, anyway. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other with the many differences of opinion or differences of interpretation of fact? 

DH: I've been thinking a lot about the fear of loss and the way that that plays into how we show up to various relationships, how we make decisions. It trickles down to the point where I will not leave the house without a backpack full of something that will help me if I get bored, if I get hungry, and if I get cold. But it can also inform the way that I will show up to a relationship or show up to what seems like enough to me in my life. It's almost like there's an impending sense of I could lose all of this. So, in order to stay ahead of this kind of tsunami of fear of loss, I need to add another thing. Whatever that is - it could be a physical possession, it could be social capital.

Does that kind of mode - either being aware of that or unaware of that - mean that another human being is a means to an end? I think that that informs the way that people can show up to each other some of the time. And I think it requires an active process of checking in with myself and checking in with you - the other - to make sure that that is not where we're coming from. Fundamentally, people - especially people who have experienced significant loss - do tend to be more mindful about insuring against that in the future. Which can be both beneficial, for the organism, but also detrimental when every organism in a system is working on that level of basically hoarding scarce resources. So, I'm really interested in the ways that people can relate to each other in a post-scarcity way, especially in terms of emotional and personal resources, but also definitely material resources. 

You hear this a lot in certain economic circles, but there is plenty of stuff to go around in the world. The problem is the distribution of it. And I know that when I get too concerned about fairness - who is getting what - that is when I start to be unfair and I start to be more mean, more stingy. And I just wonder what it would look like for me to be continually giving in a way that saves nothing for myself with the trust that whatever I do to empty myself, I can refill or be filled by other people around me. And what would that trust look like implemented on a large scale?

I've been getting a kick out of diving into the fact that it is impossible to do no harm. For me especially, as a person who benefits from passing as a cis male, a person who is white, a person who is decently highly educated, and who has the soft skills of being able to navigate various white collar work environments if I wanted to. I'm benefitting from a whole lot of systems that do quite a bit of harm. So, even if I don't cut somebody off in traffic or even if I don't punch an old lady in the face, I can't not do harm. And that's not necessarily okay, but that doesn't mean that I'm failing as a human, also.

We can be members of a complex, interconnected system that, on the daily, dole out harm and dole out healing and receive harm and receive healing all at the same time. It's not an easy way to think about the world, but I think there's something to that. The pursuit of the muddiness rather than the pursuit of personal purity is really important. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose? 

DH: I think that I feel something approaching a sense of purpose. The way that I've been taught to think about that word seems to be a very linear, kind of laser beam-like concept of I want to enact this specific quantifiable change on the world. If we're using that definition, then I think that my sense of purpose is rather muddy at the moment. 

I want to take it back to my childhood. Some of my earliest and fondest memories involved hanging out in the garage with my dad as he would tinker with various... changing the oil in the car or varnishing a set of furniture or whatever. And I would stay out late with him in the garage watching Star Trek: The Next Generation on this tiny shop TV. That show had such a profound impact on me that I think that I've carried with me. I've continued to be this incredibly nerdy, die-hard science fiction fan. And I think exposure to those types of stories and the questions that those stories grapple with has really affected the way I approach looking at where we are as a collective and where I think we ought to be or where I don't know whether we should be or the process of leaving myself open to learning about peoples’ ideas for the future. 

The purpose of The Federation was to seek out ways to better ourselves and to do so in a way that is open-minded, is questioning, is inclusive, ultimately. And I think exposure to that at a young age and exposure to a lot of other science fiction writers who are kind of grappling with similar questions has really made a pretty tremendous impact on just the way that I look at systems in particular. I think that Octavia Butler is a fantastic example of a science fiction writer who had a really keen eye for all of the pitfalls and also the triumphs in the way that people can relate to each other in groups. In recent years I've been thinking a lot about one book of hers in particular called The Parable of the Sower. 

I think there is some really deep wisdom to engaging with the world, and especially in these times, in kind of a similar way - in a very organizing forward kind of way. What is the change that I want to see in the world? How do I get there in, I guess, the least harmful way, but also what are acceptable sacrifices for me personally? And how do I approach impossible decisions?

ACT: You mentioned that one of the major differences between the conservative right and the liberal left is the way they tend to organize. The right seems to organize en masse and the left seems to have many factions. The left seems to have divided interests in combatting the various forms of hate. What do you think the come together moment might be so that we can eliminate the problem at its root? Are you motivated to figure this out or are you defeated by the prospect?

DH: I'm kind of showing up and dreading a hypothetical future date in which it becomes too much and the great disappointment comes and I lose faith in humanity. But I don't think it's happened yet. Granted, I have also not experienced a lot of the true garbage dumped on a lot of humans by other humans just based on my positionality and my privilege. I think at the heart of the issue here is the question of How much of myself am I investing and how willing am I to be hurt in order to achieve the greater good? 

I will honestly disclaim that I am not an expert on progressive politics, but I kind of see a lot of this tying back to the struggle between personal purity and personal accountability and the question of, very simply, What if I am wrong? What are my needs? And when do I prioritize my needs over your needs? And that's where I think a lot of the difficulty comes among really progressive groups is that there is not the trust that a group that prioritizes the rights of people of color will also prioritize the rights of white women. What does it mean when trusting that someone else is going to have my back in X -situation might open me up to harm?

I will also admit I'm not super great at this 100% of the time, but I feel like it's worth it to continue to open myself up to harm and possible harm in the ways that I can handle in order to create that space for changing the narrative in terms of a resource scarcity way - in order to create more trust in the world. If I can keep showing up in that way, maybe that will change some of the assumptions that we move through the world with. I don't know. It also might be banging one's head against a wall.

ACT: Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about? 

DH: Well, I already went off about Star Trek, so I think I'm doing alright. I feel strange being interviewed here. There's definitely quite a bit of imposter syndrome coming up for me just because I look on the website and I see all the faces and names and thoughts of folks who are doing an incredible amount of work in this community of Bend. Part of me wants to backtrack and say, I don't have all the answers. I don't know what I'm talking about here. But another part of me wants to just unrepentantly throw my ideas out there.

I want to have the hard conversations with people on pretty much anything. I want to get to a place with the people that I live with and the people that I run into daily that I can question in an honest way the assumptions that I make about the world - what is right and what is to be dismissed or thrown away. I want to be held accountable. I want to hold other people accountable. And to do that in a way that is not oppositional, but is a really loving, we're-all-in-this-together, we-can-create-a-better-thing-than-we-have-going-on-right-now kind of a way. I don't want to shy away from those conversations because they're hard. 

Emery referred David to participate here. And I am so thankful! David proposed meeting in a park with some snacks, but I had to nix that for the practical reasons of audio recording, so we instead met at his home.

Sophia Ermisch

Sharon Balsamo recommended Sophia to participate here and Ashlee Davis was singing her praises, too. I am so grateful to them because I really love these opportunities to chat with the younger folks. I don't have the fondest of memories from my high school days and seem to be forgetting more and more of them as those drift further and further back in time, so it was great to chat with Sophia about some of the stuff she's going through.

What really struck me as we chatted is that the things that are bothering her in her peer group pretty much mirror what is bothering me in mine. I suppose as the years go by we have more and more opportunities to grow empathy and compassion and evolve for the better, but it doesn't necessarily mean we take advantage of those chances. Is it so simple as that? Some do. Some don't. I guess I tend to believe that it's more complicated. At any rate, if Sophia at 15 is any indicator of future Sophia, she seems to be on the right track.

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SE: I am Sophia Ermisch. I am a Mexican-American teenager living in Bend, Oregon. 

ACT: How do you feel about things these days? What's your take on the state of the world or the nation? What does it look like through your eyes?

SE: Currently the abortion rights are a big part in American debates. That's what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about our nation. It's a hard topic for me to think about especially because if I think about it too much I just get really confused and disoriented. It's the same with the state of the world - a lot of the things that happen, they break my heart, but I just can't dwell on it or else I would just be a broken person. 

ACT: What concerns you? What affects you personally? And what motivates you to do something about it? 

SE: My main focuses that I want to dedicate my time and effort to is global warming and our Earth because I'm just kind of a nature freak. And coming from Latin roots, I really do care about everything that's going on at the border. That's kinda what's bothering me more these days is what our country's doing to those people. 

And also just my peers. A lot of the time it's hard for me to connect with other people because they just don't really view the world as I do. Being from Latin roots and I've always traveled since I was little, I think how I view the world is just different from people. It's hard to really get empowered when I don't have that many people to get empowered with that are my age. And people older than me tend to just kinda see me as just a teenager. They see me as my age and not as a person. 

ACT: We have so much in common, but we tend to focus on our differences. What do we do about that? 

SE: I really try to view something we don't agree on from their perspective. I try. It doesn't always work out, but I try. I think that also brings me a lot of patience with people. I try to shrug it off when someone says an opinion that I don't agree with. I don't spend my energy on trying to fight it or trying to change their view. 

ACT: What are you spending your energy on?

SE: Myself and the people I love, obviously, and my little pets. Just things that I care about and topics that I care about that I know need energy, especially if they're lacking it. Friends and family and I say myself because Sharon has really taught me to put myself first in a way. So, I've really been putting myself first and that makes me able to give to other people. 

ACT: What does it mean to be in community with others who may have different agendas than yours?

SE: I lived a year in Argentina when I was little and I lived six months in France. France was a frustrating time for me because they were really different. I was eleven and twelve. It was an interesting time in my life and it taught me to be more accepting of how people are and not try to dwell on it as much. Not try to overthink what people say.

There's horrible people out there, but they all come from a human standpoint and they all suffer like we do. Just to view my world and my community and my nation and my school as individuals and people with their own problems and their own victories in life. And just focus on myself and my life and what I choose to do with my life. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? 

SE: I try. A lot of the time it can be lost and I feel like why am I even here? Not in a really dark way, but why am I doing this math problem right now? Or why am I reading this book that I dislike? On the topic of school, it can be frustrating - the purpose of this and why am I doing this and why am I fighting so hard for my grades when eventually I'll die? Sometimes I just think and it gets a little intense and I'm like, Everything's gonna die. But that's the darker days. 

On my brighter days where I'm feeling positive, I think my purpose... My mom always said that there's givers and there's takers. My mom has always said that me and my sisters are givers. So, I take that as a strong point in my life and I try to give as much as I can and show people better ways. I'm not saying I'm the next Buddha. I'm not trying to be some religious figure. I just try 'cause making other people happy always make happy. So, that's usually what I go for. 

ACT: What gives you hope? What kind of examples are in front of you? 

SE: What gives me hope is my sisters. I have two older sisters. One's a sophomore in college and the other one already graduated college and she's working in San Francisco. They have always been figures in my life that I looked up to a lot. Knowing that they've been through some similar stuff that I've been through and seeing them still succeed, seeing that they're pushing through hard times, is really empowering and gives me a lot of hope. They always encourage me. On my darker days, they always give me hope and they've been really influential on my life.

ACT: What's something that you wish was different in your school environment?

SE: People not realizing that they aren't better or any different than most of the people in the school. That's what a lot of people don't think about when they are rude to others or call others names or harass them in general. They don't think they are equal. They always will be equal to anyone they interact with - I think that's probably what I would switch on in their minds. That's a world problem, in general. Knowing that they themselves have worth, as well. 

ACT: What are you most looking forward to in the near future?

SE: Being independent and being able to do my own thing. And being able to get away from things that I'm kinda stuck with, you know, being a minor. I love my parents, but... it's always nice to get away. Being in a small town my whole life and being with kinda the same people a lot, sometimes I just wish I was able to explore by myself. And just following my path and what I'm supposed to be doing in life. 

Sharon Balsamo recommended Sophia to participate here and Ashlee Davis was singing her praises, too. I am so grateful to them because I really love these opportunities to chat with the younger folks.

Laura Grayson

Courtney Wright recommended Laura to participate here. We had some scheduling conflicts for some time, so we had been talking about meeting for quite a while before it actually happened and that had the effect of bringing some healthy anticipation into the mix. This was well worth the wait, though, as our time together ended up being a delight from start to finish. I got to briefly meet one of Laura's daughters and mingled with their dogs, Klondike and Aspen, who also make cameos in the audio. And we got acquainted over tea and snacks before diving into the conversation below.

This is the first interview that I conducted from start to finish with this new idea of not transcribing it word for word and I definitely felt more ease throughout it. What you'll see below are excerpts, but you can access the full interview through the audio link at the end of the conversation. 

After we chatted, Laura took me over to the new Ruffwear co-working space called Embark (get it?) where she is the Co-working Community Manager and she gave me a sneak-peek into what looks like will surely be a lovely spot for whoever chooses to hang their hat over there.  Hanging out with Laura was a total treat and I am happy to introduce her to you here. 

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LG: I am an evolving being in the middle of a journey creating and co-creating with other people. A learning, evolving being, who, it seems, needs a lot of practice with some of the lessons that I'm learning because they come back around a lot. I like to explore and get out and I like to be around other people who like to explore and get out. And try to understand what we're doing here and why we're doing it and hopefully trying our best to be our best.

I like to play outside and I like to spend a lot of time in nature. It's a great reminder that we are part of this planet. And I like to watch my dogs play because they're great reminders that there's a lot right here in this moment and to get out of my head and to be present. That's why I also like to do yoga and I like to camp and paddle and just find things that make me be where I am. 

ACT: What concerns you? What is it about life and living together in community that breaks your heart, that you struggle with on a regular basis? And then, what motivates you to do something about it?

LG: Isolation. Communities can be designed to really isolate people. I have experienced that sense of isolation. So, I understand how that damaged me and how important it is for me to have a sense of belonging. And everyone needs a sense of belonging and a sense of meaning and purposefulness. And I see that all around, more and more and more. I think there's a lot of things that are causing it to increase - that sense of isolation. 

I see people on their phones and all that stuff - and that's sort of a trite complaint. And I think there's a great asset to having this tool to connect us, but people are forgetting to really connect and be present with each other. And so it's exciting when there's these communities that are intentionally trying to form to get people to work together differently or to live together differently - co-housing and co-working. We need the individual courage to reach out and talk to the people around us. That sense of I can do this and I don't think a lot of people feel that way. They just forget. 

ACT: Where did you get your feelings for community and why do we matter to each other? 

LG: I think we have it when we're children. I think it's a biological thing and that we all have that need to feel like we're part of something larger than ourselves. And the way our societies and institutions are run and how we grow up and evolve into these school institutions that are very competitive and divisive, those things are kind of forgotten and we start putting up a lot more barrier and armor around people instead of realizing people need people.

We have it naturally wired in us and then it depends. I think a lot of people grow up with nicely, close-knit families and that meets that need. But a lot of people don't have that. So there's this separation that happens and this guardedness. It's in our media. It's what do you have? not who you are. What does your home look like? What do you dress like? We start to find things that separate us instead of all the things that connect us and that we have in common. And so empathy starts to go away and just a natural sense of compassion starts to go away. And then you have a culture that just doesn't function with the heart; it functions with the ego. 

All of us need both that nature time and alone time and that self-introspective learning time, but we also need each other. There's a ton of research around the brain deteriorating when people are isolated and they don't have purpose and meaning. So, we need that. I think there's some need for cultural shifting where we are bowing our heads - our egos - beneath our hearts. We need to listen to compassion more and empathy and stop seeing all the things that separate us and reconnect to all the things that we all have in common. 

ACT: What are your thoughts on the more extreme things of supreme intolerance or overt racism or sex trafficking? Why is this stuff so prevalent? 

LG: I think that's back to the isolation. So, I think most of our social institutions are pretty broken. And we're all just going with the flow because we're all in the stream. And a few people are like, Wait a minute. This doesn't feel right. Let's try this differently. And sometimes it takes a while and then a few more people hear that and then a few more and a few more and things start to shift and change. We are such an interesting species and we're powerful creators and manifestors of things. We're not recognizing that either. We're not recognizing that we are powerful creators and that we co-create. So, when we send out something, the people around us are receiving that and sending it out. And we know this through quantum mechanics, that atoms go where our thoughts go. They flow. So, that sense of mindfulness and awareness - What am I thinking about? What am I saying? - what does that do and change? And we all have that power. There's a lot of people making cool changes in the world. 

I think it's easier to really be our authentic, genuine selves and to call b.s. on stuff when we see it, but in a way that isn't antagonistic or threatening to somebody - through compassion. Because we've all been there. Yeah, I've been walking half-blindfolded most of my life. Maybe I'm waking up to some things, but there's some things I don't see. We're all in this together. So instead of this weird hierarchy, we all need to be in a circle, holding hands. It's not a pyramid; it's a circle. And we need to reach out and have compassion for ourselves and the people around us. 

ACT: Where does accountability fit into this? Some people need to be challenged, right? You can't just go around sowing hate. Whether or not your'e capable of understanding it, that doesn't mean it should continue to happen. 

LG: I think we give so much of our power away. And we give a lot of that away to people with a contrived sense of authority. It's doctors, counsellors - whatever the degree from whatever the school. We give our personal power to heal ourselves that way to other people, as well. And ultimately we have to fix ourselves. And while we're doing that, we're projecting a shit ton because that's what we do. We see things in other people that we don't like because it's inside of us and we need to fix it ourselves. And as a mother of daughters, oh my gosh, what mirrors they were.

So there's this thing that we need to fix ourselves, but then how do we stop these other people from doing stuff? It just wouldn't happen in a healthy culture. But in our culture where we're so separated, these things happen and people are alone and no one's reaching out. How we live would change that if we lived more collectively. Why does one person have so much material wealth and they're devoid of any sort of spiritual happiness and there are people outside their door that are begging for food? It's just such a bizarre reality, but we're co-creating in it. We're all accountable. We're all part of it, for sure. 

ACT: When you're out and about do you give much mind to what other people mean to you? And where do you find empathy or compassion for the people that are doing things that really are bothering you?

LG: When I'm interacting with people I try to be in that moment with that person and see the people that I'm with. Yeah, people piss me off sometimes. It's all a story. If I start attaching emotion to an experience, then that's something that - get ready - I'm gonna have to hold onto that for a while. And that's what I'm learning about in my body and that's why I do yoga so much. There's emotional things that I hold on in my body that have tightened over the years that I need to take a beat and look at it and try to open up to that stuff. I'm becoming more aware of when someone starts to impact me or I'm not breathing much anymore. And I try to take an exhale and recognize this is about them and I have my own story that I'm putting on the situation because we all come with our own stories and backgrounds. But it takes a lot. Every day I start over again with that. I'm still learning that one. 

ACT: It seems like integrity is for sale. That's what breaks my heart. And it's cheap, too - it's not even for a good price. 

LG: There's a lot of people with really wonderful integrity. There's a lot of beautiful people. And I think we just, unfortunately, are focusing way too much energy and putting way too much of a spotlight and a microphone in front of those other people. Mostly, I feel like the world is full of really good people. And we need to refocus that intention there. Energy goes where the mind... you know, all that stuff. If we have an election coming up and we have a horrible person running for it and it's kind of a joke, but all we do is put that person's face on the front cover of everything... So, where are we putting our focus and intention right now? What people are we paying attention to and giving microphones to? 

We have come so far and, yeah, there are so many things to fix still and new problems. But I think there's a lot more awareness. We're trending pretty good. I feel hopeful and I think it's important to stay focused on that. What is our intention? Where are our thoughts? What are we feeding? And what is this thought serving? Are we moving forward or are we just gonna stay in this place backwards? The people that are creatively making changes - those people are fun to be around 'cause they're really optimistic. 

ACT: So where does optimism and positive thinking meet complacency and survival? How do you make them cooperate? 

(Laura just laughs at me) It's gonna sound kind of woo-woo, but your energy attracts other energy. And that's a law of physics - the law of attraction. If I'm optimistic that's not complacency - I'm actively focusing on the things that make me happy, where I feel more fulfilled, where I can contribute, where there's a sense of meaning and purpose. It's being completely aware of what am I attracting energetically, what am I creating energetically, where am I? 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose? 

Sometimes. Yeah, that's when I feel really good. I think it changes and shifts. I think my purpose is to wake up and be okay and be brave being myself fully and not wear any masks and stop censoring myself and kind of remember who I was when I was four years old and super powerful. My purpose is to get back to who I was when I was four, I think... but, you know, with maybe some more social filters thrown in. I try to see people as their childlike selves - their real selves without the layers in front of that. I think purposes shift through life, but ultimately just to be here and not feel like we're supposed to be. That's an interesting pressure. It's not as easy and free. The doing versus being thing. 

ACT: What are you most looking forward to in the near future?

Connecting with more people. Meeting more great people in this community. Getting re-involved with community around me. There's a lot of awesome people doing a lot of awesome things. That's inspiring.

Courtney Wright recommended Laura to participate here. We had some scheduling conflicts for some time, so we had been talking about meeting for quite a while before it actually happened and that had the effect of bringing some healthy anticipation into the mix. Our time together ended up being a delight from start to finish.

Ashlee Davis

I came to meet Ashlee through Sharon Balsamo. I didn't know anything about her prior to showing up at her door at our scheduled appointment but within minutes of meeting we became friends and we dove into the conversational deep end pretty quickly.  We cover a variety of topics extensively and vulnerably and I believe this to be a model of an important conversation. It is certainly a heart-to-heart and I am a big advocate for all of us having more of those. 

A couple of days after our interview, I went out of town for a week to get a change of scenery and I wasn't able to transcribe this conversation before leaving. I also had some other things on my mind regarding this project and spent the time away thinking a lot about it. And then when I came back, I went to Sharon's office and we had another very beautiful conversation and talked through some of my frustrations. In the end, I made the decision that I wasn't going to transcribe interviews in their entirety anymore. It's an arduous task and one I'm not sure is necessary. It has somehow been responsible for the flow of these conversations as I've been conducting interviews in a way that I knew I could transcribe. So, what you will see below is my first attempt at changing this process. The entire interview can be listened to as per usual, but the words below are a synopsis. If you are a regular reader, you will likely see some tweaks as I continue to work into this new flow. 

I'd like to offer a big thank you to Ashlee for this powerful conversation and for her modeling sincerity and integrity and another big thank you to Sharon for helping me figure out some next steps. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Ashlee. 

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AD: I am Ashlee Jean Davis. I would describe myself as lighthearted, compassionate, an advocate for kids and teenagers, someone who often bites off more than they can chew and wants to do all of things right now in this moment. I have to calm the panic if I can't do that. 

I've really started to embrace the way that my childhood shaped me. I grew up on a small farm in Texas but exposed to a lot of different salt-of-the-earth values. But my town was super redneck - there was a lot of racism in the town I grew up in. KKK was highly active. I was sort of exposed to all of that. Growing up, there was always someone living at our house. There was never a time that I remember it was just my immediate family; there was always an aunt or a cousin or the kid down the street that his dad got put in jail and he didn't have somewhere to go so my mom let him move in or a high school friend of mine that was going through a hard time. And so, my parents never talked about it, but it was just a part of... they taught us you help each other out and you do these things: you're nice to everyone, you give people your last dime if they need it. And then that work ethic of how much it takes to take care of pigs and sheep and goats and horses and cattle and rabbits and chickens and quail and every day the amount of hours that we spent outside doing those things is unbelievable.

So, I think that that really started to shape who I am. And then now I'm so far from that. Not only am I physically far from Texas, but I couldn't imagine living that life anymore. And I loved it, maybe not all the time, but I loved who it made me. But now I'm super liberal and atheist and I live in Oregon and my outdoor experiences are no longer bottle-feeding calves and walking sheep; now it's mountain biking and running. It definitely took a long time to get my footing with who I am and I feel like I'm there now. I'm very comfortable with who I am and I love it. I love the life that I live.

I like living more of a free-spirited life. We're choosing to not have children, which has recently become something comfortable I'm finally saying out loud because sometimes that's met with some intense reactions. I think because of who I am I'm choosing to not have kids. I love kids. I'm obsessed with babies. I love the kids that I work with. I love my friends' kids. I love being around them. I like doing family stuff. And I just feel like my calling is different to give back to this world. I think a lot of people give back my having kids and I think some people give back by having kids and a career that's giving, but I just want to do a lot for others and, selfishly, I want to travel.

ACT: What breaks your heart, makes you sad, concerns you in a way that affects you personally as you go through your life? And what is it that motivates you to do something about it? What lights your fire? 

AD: It's a lot of little things that break my heart. The thing that probably I am faced with every day is a lack of tolerance and a lack of compassion. When I see that, that breaks my heart. I guess also along with that, I don't think it's apathy more as sometimes it's just accepted as the status quo.

Working in a middle school, I think sometimes when we see a lack of tolerance it's often met with, Boys will be boys or That's how girls treat each other is with drama and meanness. That breaks my heart, 'cause I don't believe that that's the case. I believe that people are capable of more and that we have to expect more from each other - to have more compassion and tolerance and empathy for each other. I have intolerance for lack of tolerance and compassion. 

Teenagers motivate me to do something more because I think that teenagers are the coolest people. They're so curious. I truly feel like the majority of them want to be their kindest self and care about others. Because of that and for them, that's what drives me. And then, just wanting a more kind and compassionate and tolerant world that they're living in because it's a very different world than what we grew up in. 

ACT: As you make your way through your daily routines, what do other people mean to you? 

AD: They mean connection and they mean that we're kind of all in this together. It's cool that we don't have to go through life alone. And I think we need each other. I really do. I like that connection to other people because it's how we learn. We see ourselves in others. We see a need.

ACT: What does community mean to you? And what does it mean to you to be part of community with opinions or agendas that go against yours?

AD: Being aware and your eyes open is often times painful and hard. It's so much easier to have your head in the sand and not notice things around you and not put a lot of thought into the human behind the bill passed, the law passed, the human behind the mistake, the human behind the future wall. It's easier to not look at that.

As humans we have a tendency to protect ourselves - to just not pay attention to those things. Because it's hard and it's uncomfortable. We also want to be able to control and fix. And often times we can't control and fix those bigger issues or that pain. But I think one of the most beautiful things about humans that separates us from any other species is that we have the ability to feel deeply. And that even means hurting and sadness and all those uncomfortable things that we want to avoid. But that's what brings us together. That's what connects us. 

That's what community means to me is that I can empathize or imagine or feel for or think about someone on the other side of the ocean that is living in a developing country underneath a piece of cardboard. And I can think about that mom from El Salvador that is sending her child to the United States and that pain that she must feel.

It's not solving the problem just thinking about it and knowing that we're all connected, but community to me is having your eyes open and your heart open and knowing and understanding what people are going through around the globe and right here under our feet in Bend, Oregon. No matter where you live or what your experience is, there are certain things we can't escape from. We can't escape from pain; we can't escape from struggle. And that's community. We can all find joy and happiness and love and all of those beautiful pieces, as well. 

If I'm gonna live in this world with people that are different than me, to me it helps to understand why. Why does my dad love Donal Trump? Why does my dad think that there should be a wall? Why does my dad believe his life matters more than someone else's? Trying to understand the why behind it and 90% of the time recognizing that people respond and react in the ways that they do because they're trying to protect something that's valuable to them. And it doesn't make it right, but it just helps build that understanding. 

We have to talk about these really hard conversations in schools. We have to teach our kids about how to talk about gender and sexuality and race and ethnicity and conversations that make people uncomfortable that we don't know how to talk about. We don't know how to have good conversations about this. And we need to be talking about it with our kids in schools. And they want to. They want to know those pieces. I think it's possible. I believe in humanity. But it takes work. It's hard. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change?

AD: Yes, yes, and yes. I definitely feel a sense of purpose. I have this tendency to do all of the things right now. And there are so many big issues, right - everything from climate change to gender equality to racism to funding public education. Which one do you go for? Do you go for them all? How do you affect change in every area?

What I try to remind myself of is just focus on one thing and do that thing. And the thing I've been called back to is kids. That's my sense of purpose is believing in kids and being their advocate and their voice for change and their behind-the-scenes cheerleader - just believing in them and having unconditional positive regard for kids. Young people need an adult that shows up for them and holds space for them. 

I have the time and the privilege and the energy to think about all of this stuff: about humanity and the greater good and what do we mean to each other. And I wonder about how many people aren't thinking about it. Are people thinking about these deeper questions?

I came to meet Ashlee through Sharon Balsamo. I didn't know anything about her prior to showing up at her door at our scheduled appointment but within minutes of meeting at her door we became friends and we dove into the deep end pretty quickly.

Emery Moseley

Ryan Re referred Emery to participate here. I had only known of her as Bill Moseley's daughter, so it was great fun to meet her under completely different circumstances. Before we started recording we talked about the idea of how differently we may appear to others who we meet under different circumstances. We talked about quite a lot before recording, but fortunately that interesting conversation carries throughout the recording, too. It was so fun getting to know Emery through this interview and I so enjoyed getting a peek at the world through her eyes. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

EM: I actually haven't been asked to define myself for a really long time. I would say that, at heart, I'm a romantic - I'm a sentimentalist. I'd also definitely describe myself as a surrealist poet. I think that I try to be in the world as a presence that will create creativity in other people and inspire other people to be their full expression. I think that inspiring other people is a really important thing in my life and I think that it's something that people should do more frequently as something that really creates growth and progressiveness in our society and environment. So, I think that's really quintessential to the person that I am. I'd say, at heart, I'm somebody that wants to be art not to make art and just wants to create a feeling of comfort in the sense that people are comfortable to be themselves at all times and so can share that fullness of expression with other people. 

ACT: What matters to you? What do you give a damn about? 

EM: Actually, what matters to me a lot - I've been doing a lot of body work lately. I'm kind of like an airheaded person, so I'd say that my body is kind of mattering to me a lot right now. I've been working on a lot of experimental dance. Also, I'd say that - and I've been kind of thinking about how to say this - I think the dark mattes a lot to me. Where some people live in fear their entire lives. And I've definitely done that as well. But I think getting comfortable with the inner dark sense and that inner sense of frustration, anxiety, horror. Anger is really important because it creates more beauty in the self, I think. I'm actually writing an experimental monster book right now (laughs) and so that's also been a very big part of what's mattering to me right now - is just that feeling of diving in really deep to my inner dark and experiencing and expressing that. 

ACT: What concerns you? What breaks your heart or makes you sad? What is it that affects your personal experience in the world in a way that really frustrates you? What stands in your way? 

EM: I'd say what stands in my way is usually just myself. When I don't feel at liberty to do something it's usually because I'm not giving myself the power to do so. What I'm frustrated about in the world is probably just the feeling that there needs to be a frustration or anxiety. I think that everything around me is kind of lock and key. Like, there's certain situations and there are certain ways to problem-solve the situation and I don't necessarily think that things that are very confrontational or anxiety-inducing need to be avoided or need to be dealt with in a way that's like, we don't touch that 'cause it's bad. I think I'm just kind of frustrated that people think that there needs to be a frustration in the first place. And also I've noticed that that's a very common way for people to bond is to complain or to be upset about things. I don't know. I think people want to experience that communal struggle because it brings people together. But, in a sense, I also think that they're avoiding what is truly at the heart of that, which is just them feeling unhappy with themselves and needing to express it in an outward way that's blaming other things. 

And so, I think that taking responsibility for that blame is probably something that frustrates me that I wish that people would do more - just acknowledging that they have the power within themselves to not express anger or anxiety outward and to kind of take it inward, as well. And realize that frustration is a part of what creates happiness and is not something that is taking away from them. 

ACT: What do you think about the idea of the activist then, who is essentially not just complaining, but complaining for the masses and trying to change others' behavior? If we weren't complaining - and I guess this can mean many different things; a complaint could be tying yourself to a tree so it won't get cut down or it could just be griping about traffic - if we're not doing that on the grander scale, how do you think things would or should change?

EM: Well, I think activism is really interesting because I see a lot of people that call themselves PC (politically correct) and there's a certain way to say different things. Like, instead of African American, you're supposed to say black. And you're supposed to ask people their gender pronouns and respect those. I think that that's really cool and I also think that it creates these huge walls between us and huge walls between getting to know each other. And so I feel like activism is interesting because it takes away the human element of getting to know each other, which is to make mistakes and also get to know each other on a personal level where we're not just saying, Okay, this person is black. They like to be referred to as they/them. They have this certain name that they go by, so that's what defines them. All those things are actually putting that person inside of a box.

And so, I think activism at its heart and PC at its heart is really wonderful, where I think that it was actually meant with good intentions to begin with. But I also think that over time it's come to this place where people are basically just really paranoid about what they say and really paranoid about how they say it and really scared that people will hate them because of what they're saying. And also blame their feelings of guilt on, whether it's themselves or the other part... you know like if I'm a feminist then I'm blaming men for treating me so badly for all these years or whatever. Where I feel like feminism actually should be equality. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like the proportions have kind of blossomed out of control in that sense. But I feel like activism at its heart is a really genuine and positive influence. I just think it's easy to get out of control with it. 

But I also think that if people weren't acting upon the world in frustration - the other part of your question - I feel like it's really healthy for people to express. And I think it's really healthy for people to express whether that's with like... if they need to scream really loud or if they need to do art about it or dance about it or, you know, talk to somebody about it. I think where I see it influencing people in a negative way is people expressing frustration on other people without reason because of something that they feel inside that they're scared to confront. So, I think if people weren't expressing frustration outwardly I think it would be helpful to actually just express it within the self first and then bring the product of that out into the world. Maybe you're a sexist or something and you're like, Yes, I'm frustrated with this other sex for doing these things that I feel like they've done to me. But instead of being like, It's your fault that I feel this way, taking it inside and being like, Why do I blame them for this? and realizing that it might follow back to this one incident that you had as a child or some incident you had with a partner and kind of realizing that and coming to terms with not everybody in that sex is that way and because I'm being a reductionist or reducing people to what my experience has been of this gender, it is causing me to feel sexism. But that is not how everybody is of that sex and so after experiencing the frustration within the self, then going out into the world and expressing that, I have problems with this. I have been known in myself to express bad feelings toward this gender, but I want to get to know people as individuals instead of reducing them to my experience. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, person to person, as you make your way throughout your life? 

EM: I think that humans are very social creatures. To what I've read, that's why our brains are as big as they are. And so I think that socializing is a really important part of being human. I think it's a really important part of cultivating a society and surviving, actually. I mean, it would be pretty extremely hard to just survive as an individual human in the wilderness or in a city or wherever. A lot of what we do entertainment-wise or job-wise or whatever is relate socially. And I think we mean kind of like everything to each other. Everybody else's existence, whether or not we realize it, is very crucial and very important to the people that we are. I've heard this idea that you are a conglomeration of the closest ten people to you - where it's like I'm like all of my best friends, you know, cultivated in my head into myself. 

I also think that's a really interesting question because a lot of what our society is revolving around today is the connection between people and what we mean to each other and I hear a lot of talk about social media or TV or other telecommunicative ways of talking to each other. And I think that we're at kind of an awkward point 'cause the point where we're at is we can use phones to distract ourselves from society but also interact with people in a way that's like, Hey, do you want to meet up for coffee tomorrow? Yeah! Like, in less than five minutes. And so I think the question goes a little deeper than just What do other people mean to me? or What do I mean to other people? because it also takes roots in where we're at in society right now. I feel like we mean everything to each other and the way we're utilizing that or the way that we're creating tools to provide for that is a debated issue right now. And I'm not really sure where I stand on it, honestly. Because I think that phones are almost making us like cyborgs, just without the attachment to our heads. I think that it has the power to help us become these even more hyper-social beings and even more able to relate to each other or to connect and I think that it's just up to us to take that power farther. 

ACT: Growing out from the individual to individual relationship, what does community mean to you? What does it mean to you to be a human amongst the 7.5 billion others with all of these different agendas? And what does it mean to be in that with some of those agendas being in conflict to yours or yours being in conflict to theirs? 

EM: I kind of have been trying to approach conversation with people less as a this is my belief and that's your belief and we can go our separate ways if we disagree or I can hate you if you disagree or whatever and I've been trying to come at it more with a question-based mindset where I want to ask people why they feel a certain way instead of immediately just jumping to You're wrong or That's a wrong way to think. And so, I feel like approaching people with different agendas than me... I actually feel really excited 'cause I get the opportunity to learn something that I maybe even haven't ever conceived of before, which is really beautiful. And it's not necessarily that I would have to stick around and make a community with them in my close social circle, but it is something that has been a struggle for me in the past - to come up to people with different opinions and listen to them and have them listen to me.

But I think a lot of what humans want is to be heard and I think that some of the issues that come up where people are on the extremist side are because they don't feel like they're getting heard. It's very important to me, actually, in my society to approach it with a curious mindset, like to be basically a child in it. And basically just be like, I just want to play with you and I want to ask you questions and we don't have to agree. 

And also, what community means to me is a little interesting as well because for a long time, when I was in middle school and high school, I got bullied a lot. And so it's been kind of hard for me to want to relate with people, I guess. In some part because I kind of have, honestly, been disappointed with the people that I've met being unable to find their deeperness, you know - being able to dig into them and be like, Who are you really? What are you really interested in? A lot of the time when I asked people questions like - it's kind a deep question, I guess - Do you believe in God? and Why do you believe in God? and an answer I'd get like all the time, like more often than not, was I don't know. Because I've always believe in that. And I think that that's how our society revolves in a sense, but I also think that, as I've grown up, I've realized that it's actually more on me than it is on them to figure out that deeperness - to find the key to their lock. Being able to ask questions that go deeper for them in a way that is specific to them. If I can listen so well that I can find that key, then I feel like I can find that deeperness. But I think growing up it was really hard for me to want to create a community because I was just disappointed and upset and depressed with the people that I would meet and how they didn't really strive to expand outside a box - whatever boxes they were putting themselves in - that they were just happy being inside that box and holding themselves to that.

So, my opinion on it has changed, but it's definitely been a learning curve and I still don't feel really safe in a larger community or feel very held in it. I honestly am somebody that... I kind of have a hard time knowing what the right thing to do is or what the socially acceptable thing to do is or like, I have a really hard time with what the common sense thing is to do. And so, I think that people can get kind of freaked out about that or they can get kind of weirded out. And I feel like I'm just now kind of finding a community that isn't like that, but I still am unsure what my definition or what it means to me would be.

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose? Do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to be a certain way or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

EM: Yeah. Well, so, yesterday I was working with my friend Sofie on a movie that she's doing and we were talking about purpose versus function. And how function can create error, but purpose doesn't necessarily. You know, a rock's purpose if I were to hold a door open would be to hold open the door, but my function is to put the rock in the door. And so if the rock were to slip out or whatever, it would be my mistake because I chose a rock that was too small or the rock broke or whatever - I chose the bad rock.

I think it is really interesting - the word purpose - because it makes me feel like I'm relying on something to tell me where my stars align or what I'm supposed to do or where my path is. I grew up in a Catholic family, basically, and I really respect that form of teaching or that path, basically, but it's not the right path for me. And I think that my whole life I kind of have struggled with accepting what I feel like is the right path for me. And I kind of have reached this point where - just to make it a little easier for people to understand - I kind of call myself a positive nihilist (laughs). Basically, nihilism is this idea where you basically don't believe in anything, which is funny because you're also believing that nothing exists. I think that often times it's associated with this sense of negativity or people are like, Oh, nothing matters, so I'm just gonna hurt the world or hurt myself or hurt others or whatever. But I think, for me, nihilism is more about waking up in the morning and deciding who do I want to be today? and where do I want to be today? And basically very actively participating in my life. Like, not being a passive participator. Like, being very active and making decisions and taking responsibility for them and not feeling any guilt ever because everything that I've done is basically what I've intended it to be or is the way that I perceived it.

So, for situations that are uncomfortable for me or like negative, I want to experience that and I also want to experience the sense of my perspective is up to me. And so, if I am experiencing horribleness, then I can change my perspective so that I'm experiencing something that I can grow from and learn from even if it's not happy or beautiful or, you know, good vibes. I think that it's more, in my experience, my purpose or my spiritual path is so much more about learning and so much more about reaching out with all of my feelers than it is about finding something that I can rely on and be like, My  mom is dying and I need this to fix it or So and so is being mean to me and I need this purpose to fix it. I don't want to fix anything; I want to be with it and I want to experience it and I want to grow with it. 

ACT: Do you think about the 'why' or the 'for what' or to what end? You want to experience it, but for what?

EM: Yeah, that's totally also something that I struggle with. Especially in this time of my life because kind of what I'm doing right now is I'm moving out of my house intentionally into my car, which I've been encouraged not to do in the past because it's not a very normal thing to do. It would be very easy for me to stay here and live in my house for longer and be totally fine, but I don't want to anymore. So, I think that I've struggled with that question because I kind of have asked myself, what part of this is helping society or what part of me is just doing this for myself? It seems like a very selfish thing to do to just go in my car and travel and not really work a specific job and not really have to rely on any appointments and like, whatever. But I also think I shouldn't have to do that. I'm not experiencing anybody else's reality other than my own. And so it doesn't make sense to me to feel a sense of guilt or feel a sense of responsibility for other people or what they want me to do.

And so I think to what end is kind of like in the moment, for me. Or at least that's the way that I've been trying to cultivate it - where like every moment is like the end. Every moment is the last moment. When I was a kid I was always afraid I'd experience my last best idea. You know? And I kind of want that to be like every single moment is kind of like that. I also think that each moment - it can't be more than what it is - and so every moment is actually it's most full expression or most elaborate undoing and there's nothing that's lacking about the moment that is present because it is the last moment in that sense in that moment.

And so, I think to what end or why is basically not really something that I think about futurewise. I think that that would cause anxiety in me. I think that referring to the future too much, especially in a sense where we don't know the future - we don't have the technology yet where we can just look into the future and see what's going to happen - I think that would basically just be pointless anxiety. And so I think for me to live in the present and experience the present and be with that and just roll with it is a much more fulfilling way for me to live life. 

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything?

EM: Yeah, I do. What makes you feel alienated about society? 

ACT: (Laughs) Everything. Yeah, that's funny. That's a great question. (Long pause) Wow. This gives me a lot of empathy for people I interview 'cause you want to come up with something really articulate. So, whether or not it's just an error in my perception or it's actual - it's hard to know - but I have the experience or the feeling that I don't see the world the way most other people do. So, I have the feeling of alienation often. Like you, or it sounds like you, I have compulsions to do things that aren't normal or that don't fit in with what seems to be the more specific master plan for most people of our culture. The way of life - the western culture way of life, the one that I'm familiar with - seems to have a course that I don't find very interesting. And I also find that course to be barreling towards devastation. Unlike you, I think about the future often and I'm perplexed by our decisions in the now that look to me to be obviously sending us to this future. There are so many things that I hear us all - lots of generalizations here - complaining about. Right? It's up to us. We get to make the decision. And so the things that we're complaining about are the things that we're contributing to - a lack of values or a lack of determination or a lack of chutzpah to do something about it that keeps us in the place that we're complaining about. 

So, I run into this a lot. I don't make much money. I barely make enough money to survive. And I make all these choices in my life to maintain my feelings of self worth and my survival in the system that I live in. I adjust all these things simultaneously so that I can continue to live in a society that is built up of rules that I didn't choose. And often what I run into is someone wants to fix my problem by telling me, 'Well, why don't you get a job?' And that's alienating to me because I have a job. I have a task. I have a function, like you were talking about. And it doesn't fit into the system that you're complaining about, but I don't want it to because I think the system that you're complaining about sucks.

So, I think of more people came to terms with their discomfort and came to terms with the fact that they could do something about it - they would just have to adjust other parts of their life - I would have less to complain about and I think over time, as this critical mass, we would all have less to complain about and more energy and time to be proactive and live lives that are meaningful to us. I don't know if it's real or perceived and I don't know what the difference is between those two things, but I feel different than other people most of the time. And this is definitely my issue or challenge or problem or fault - whatever word you want to use. I feel frustrated by that. Yeah. Wild. Great question. 

EM: Beautiful. 

ACT: Those are my questions. This last one is just an offering for you to say something in closing and you can do with that whatever you want. I ask these questions assuming the world is waiting for your answer. That's my big hope is that the thing I say or the thing you say flips everything upside down and not in a way to put pressure on your closing statement... I don't know. Say what you want to say, I guess. 

EM: Oh my gosh (laughs). Well, I hope that everybody's feeling really comfortable to get weird today. I guess that's what I want to say. I hope that everybody feels okay to do the thing they want to do even if it's a small step to that thing. That's basically it. 

Ryan Re referred Emery to participate here. I had only known of her as Bill Moseley's daughter, so it was great fun to meet her under completely different circumstances. Before we started recording we talked about the idea of how differently we may appear to others who we meet under different circumstances.

Pinto Lebrun

Ryan recommend Pinto to participate here. I met her very briefly as I was leaving their home after Ryan's interview, not knowing Ryan would refer here. So, on this morning she greeted me with a big hug and then we chatted for a little while in the warm spring sunshine before heading inside for the interview. Pinto would have preferred to do the interview in a treehouse in Georgia, but we just couldn’t make it work, so we settled for floor cushions in a sacred room in her home. Pinto’s pretty much a bundle of smiles and warmth and hope and hard work and joy and, as you can imagine, a real treat to talk with. I’m happy to introduce her to you here. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would describe yourself?

PL: I am, huh. I'm Pinto or Katie - it depends who you talk to. Katie "Pinto" Lebrun. And Pinto's a nickname that kind just embodies the spirit of me that I later learned to embody. I am a nomad at heart who finds joy in challenge and is currently exploring the challenge of creating a home base (laughs). 

ACT: Do you associate the Pinto more with the bean or with the Ford? 

PL: The horse, technically, but I had a short temper as a kid - from what I've heard - and the Ford Pinto blew up when it got hit from behind. So, I've learned to redirect that energy into being very productive (laughs). But the bean is my tattoo. 

ACT: (Laughs) A trifecta of pintos, then. What concerns you or breaks your heart? What makes you sad and affects you personally about life and making your way through it? And then what motivates you to do something about it? 

PL: I think the most challenging thing - and I think this is a pretty universal thing in our world at the moment; especially in America; especially in the world where there's social media and everyone hears things from every angle - is that I've experienced a culture that teaches us to not believe in ourselves. That teaches kids that there's only a certain way to do things. That you have to eventually leave your imagination behind. So, the lack of belief in the control we have to actually follow our dreams. And that, for so many people, dreams have to stay dreams. And that's what they are in that reality.

For myself, I remember in college, being like, I'm gonna be a professional mermaid! And people were like, That is not a thing. I now work with professional mermaids (laughs). It's totally a thing! Had I known that was a thing back when I could still hold my breath for two minutes, I might live a different life. And a big change for me was learning how to hula hoop in my mid-20s. 'Cause I could not hula hoop until I was like mid-20s. Never as a kid. And now it's my career. 

So, my affirmation this spring has become I am creative activism. The idea of changing these perceptions by being the most out there adult that kids and other adults have seen. Being like, You know what? Dreams aren't actually that scary to follow. And if someone had told me as a kid who was obsessed with horses and there was this book by Marguerite Henry about Chincoteague and Assateague island, off the coast of Virgina - Land of the wild ponies - and I was obsessed with this. A couple years ago, I was paid to hula hoop on the island of the wild ponies. And I was in my 30s. Had someone told ten-year-old me that that was even a possibility, I feel like I would have entered into a lot of projects with a lot more open heart and more creativity. 

So, what I'm doing about that is the running around this country and now this city and trying to work with children from the age of 0 to 105. Because we all have that potential to learn through play. Where experience in life can just be a side-effect of smiling and laughing and having fun. And how we can learn our lessons through laughter and joy and that those options are there. Wow, when I try to be authentic I just ramble. I don't remember the first question anymore (laughs). 

ACT: Why do you suppose our society has taken the joy and the imagination and the dreaming out of the equation and why do most things in life in the professional world look so stale and stagnant and structured and achievement-based? What does that all mean to you? 

PL: I feel like our country, from the top levels, focus on profits. We rate our quality of life on economy. So the biggest ratings, like, Are we being successful as a country? is like GDP and economic growth. But does that actually make any of us happy or creative? Our markers are these business suits and wallets and things that are taken very seriously. And fairies don't really seem to have a role (laughs) in what is put at the top of our country as these so-called role models.

Imagination for me really comes from the environment - going out into the woods, the nature. What we're actually attached to. Walking around barefoot. Paying attention to the trees that you walk by on the way to work, which were here longer. None of that has a role and recently seems to have less of a role. When it should be, in my opinion, higher on the priority list. 

I host a lot of retreats. And I specifically aim to hold retreats in places where people have to walk through the woods. I don't like super high-end retreat centers for the type of work I do because I want people to be put back into the elements and back into something less familiar than their city life. Even people who live in the country - you live in the country now and you have all these different conveniences. And you have to pursue success to have these conveniences. Versus going back into like, What do you actually need to live in nature? And then, once people are there, the Earth itself naturally sparks that creativity. So, as our society separates us more and more from the Earth, we are separated (opinions, opinions here) more and more from ourselves. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? What do people mean to you as you engage with them in your daily routines?

PL: I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the people. I came to Bend to visit a couple friends. This is not my climate zone. This is the most challenging climate zone I've ever lived in. It's dry; it's cold; it's beautiful in its own way. But picking a place based on the land and the city, this is not what I would have picked. This is not where I would have seen myself. But then I got to know the people here. I stayed because of the community I was... I feel very privileged to have entered at a time of a lot of community growth and a lot of new programs growing and starting and people coming together. And that's what inspired me to stay.

I work with people - that's what my life is. When I traveled the country I got to see all these different communities. I'd be in a different city every couple days - sometimes multiple cities a day - and I could interact with anywhere from 30 to 500 people in that day. And then I could disappear and not talk to anyone for a week. But in the end, my work and the reason I'm here is to be part of a community, to work within that, and to help us find those connections.

The community I've found here in Bend has been really special in that I've seen a higher rate of people encouraging authenticity in each other. I don't know if that's the region or if it's jus this pocket that ended up here, but coming from Boston and New England and New York where it's you look someone in the eye and they're like, What do you want? Sorry! You have pretty eyes! I don't know. I didn't want anything. Or you ask someone, How are you doing? and they're like, Why? Whereas here, when someone in this community asks How are you? they actually want to know the answer. And I've felt that people are receptive to me when I'm opening up that opportunity like, What do you need? and people feel safe here actually speaking that. So, for me, community is something that is what built home. As I call this home, it wouldn't be that if it weren't for the people and the open interactions between them. 

ACT: If we just agree for the sake of this question to say that community, in general, is the collection of all humans, what does it mean to you to be part of that community with so many potentially adverse opinions and opposing agendas and some of the extreme negative stuff - violence and racism and what not? What does it mean to be part of community with the grosser differences? 

PL: I think it's part of my responsibility - all of our responsibility as being humans - to listen to all of them. Not to agree, but to listen. To be open and accepting of free conversation between that. And the less we listen and the less we open our hearts to those opposing views, the stronger those differences become and the harder it's gonna be to bring that back together. It's another thing the social media time period we're in right now is making more difficult because it's really easy to surround yourself in a bubble of you. It's really easy for me to surround myself in a bubble of what I believe. And there's these things people do - friend cleanse: if you don't agree with me on this, then don't be my friend. I'm like, Oh, if you don't agree with me on this, be my friend! Tell me why. And if we both listen, we'll both learn something. In the end, we'll probably still disagree, but disagreements don't mean that we can't communicate and don't mean we can't work together. And so that goes for every single side - we all (my opinion) need to learn to be better listeners. I think I'm a pretty good listener, but I always believe I can always be a better one than I am right now.

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

PL: Mmhmm. Yes. You asked a yes or no question, but I'm inferring that you want me to elaborate. The responsibility thing is a really interesting thing 'cause, yes, I feel like we all have a responsibility to be a part. I believe that that part can change. And I believe that my part right now is to be a character - play this role, be this role - and I don't like the word of character or play because it is really who I am. I want to hold the energy and hold space that encourages surrender to authentic weirdness. I guess this is definitely something I have pride in. I like that I have an MBA and I have business suits in my closet and I can design websites and I've lived the corporate world and can do all these things and that I will show up, instead of being part of the conference, in total weird outfits and sparkles with a bunch of people who are gonna light stuff on fire and dance (laughs).

I like that when I go into a library I'm carrying a hundred hula hoops with me. I like that there's little pockets around this country that know me as the Hula Hoop Girl. There was one small town I was in and a woman came up to me after the performance and said, I can tell you're not from around here 'cause people haven't worn flowers in their hair since the '70s and I ain't never seen pants like that. But she was smiling. She liked it. She liked seeing that. And this small town of kids got to see a professional adult woman, traveling by herself, making a living dancing and playing games. And seeing that as completely possible. That that's actually my job. And what that means for me is I have to be as authentically weird and out there - no matter what situation I'm in - and be that person who now goes to business meetings in mermaid leggings and hair extensions because I have a kids' program afterwards and not apologize for it anymore. 

ACT: What is the source of those three words in particular that I used: the "sense" of purpose or the "compulsion" or the "responsibility"? What does that mean to you? Where do you suppose it comes from? 

PL: Probably going back to being part of that larger community. If you make a recipe - if you make a soup - and it calls for salt and you just put the salt on the table, but you never put it in the soup, it doesn't fulfill its purpose. It wouldn't exist in that recipe if it wasn't supposed to be immersed and a part of every single bite. So, the responsibility is if I'm going to be a part of this soup that is this community on Earth, then there's a role I'm supposed to play.

The compulsion - as humans I think we find joy in having purpose. There's been times in my life where I was a complete workaholic - a general manager for one business and an assistant manager for another - working a hundred hours a week! 'Cause I had all this purpose. But none of it was fulfilling what I deep down could do. It was just the training... my brain was able to do. But not something that I myself embodied in a way that the person next to me didn't. 

ACT: Is it someone's role to be terrible? Or to be mean? Or to be violent? 

PL: It could be. I think everything teaches us a lesson. I mean, that's a really interesting way to look at it. I feel like it doesn't necessarily need to be that way, but at this point in time people fall into that role because of the people that were in that role before them who did that to them. And until we are listening and supporting and helping people find the other way - 'cause there's two ways to react to everything - and a lot of people haven't been given (opinions) the opportunity to learn the alternative. In my life those people have taught me a lot and I couldn't do the work I now do without having had those people play that role in my life. This is a chicken and the egg question because if there weren't people playing that role I wouldn't need to do some of the work I am doing (laughs). But all of it will exist as a container in one way or another. 

ACT: I would have been shocked if you had the definitive answer on the question. It's open for debate I think (laughs). 

PL: I'll write a song about it and we'll see what the song says (laughs). 

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything?

PL: You told me a little about your research in coming here and you didn't actually talk much about the people - as far as you moving to Bend. You talked about the map; you talked about these different looks; since being here, what have the people of Bend taught you about why you're here or why you want to be here? 

ACT: That's a cool question. A couple of weeks after moving here, I was in that smitten phase. And coming from New England, also living all over the world and all over the United States, I had a fair amount of exposure to lots of different ways - community ways and cultural ways. But I was impressed here with the heads up and eyes forward and friendly hellos and help-your-neighbors-dig-out-of-the-snow kind of stuff. So, a couple weeks into that feeling I wrote a letter to Bend to The Source (click here, scroll down) and thanked everybody for being so wonderful, in short. And while I'm sure that there's a fair amount of benefit to that, I believe two things now: one, it was premature and that's due to the experiences I've had since then. Not that that doesn't exist. There's probably an above average amount of that still happening - acknowledging each other, just taking that extra moment to just look at someone. It still is happening. But it's not happening like I thought that it was. And so the second part of that, I guess, is now I think it's becoming my role or I'm taking it on to make sure that that doesn't die here. 

I'm torn on the project, right, because sometimes I dream of what it might look like to go live in Middle America where community sense is quite strong and people know that they depend on one another and outside influence is a bit more limited. And to be part of this feeling where everything is kind of 'Ra! Ra! Ra!' and 'We're really proud of our community and we really care about each other and this project is so nice!' It would be nice to be part of that flood. I think it would feel really nice to get some support and recognition in that kind of way. But it's also probably the case that a place like Bend needs the project more than that place. So, this is part of my internal struggle lately (laughs) - lately being the last two years - of doing this project and it actually seeming to fall on deaf ears week after week after week. I guess while that frustrate me I really find that to be the affirmation to keep doing it. Does that answer your question? 

PL: A little bit. It sent my brain on a whole bunch of other... over there and over there. 

ACT: I guess I'll just say a little bit more for my own sake. There's a bunch of lovely people here in Bend. And there's a bunch of lovely people in every town anywhere in the world. While that's true about Bend, there's also a pretty obvious influence of success and wealth that can be distracting - more so than in other places. And I don't have tons of examples of how that pursuit leads to better relationships. That's what I mean. 

PL: I can hear that. 

ACT: Do you have anything to say in closing? 

PL: This was way more mellow than I anticipated it to be. I was like, Whoa, I got really serious. I don't spend much of my time being serious. And so that was just interesting to me. 'Cause I spend a lot of my time focusing on the like... I like to give people hugs. Whenever I meet people, I usually say, Do you hug? And I've been told - and actually thanked for it - that I hold hugs longer than people anticipate. But when someone's uncomfortable or you can kind of feel that... there like Yes, I hug but you can still feel that they're like, Do I hug? I like to just start laughing while hugging them and laughter often times relaxes all of it. And so that's the way I see myself being all the time. I'm that person who hugs strangers and giggles in their ear. So, it's an interesting experience to sit down and be like, Oh yeah, here's all the serious stuff I think about, too. And I didn't anticipate that coming up. I'm used to talking about the rainbows and the butterflies.

A couple days ago I facilitated ecstatic dance and my theme was rainbow medicine and people were like, We're coming in for all these rainbows and butterflies today and it's gonna be this bright, happy dance. And I'm like, No, dude. We're gonna go through a thunderstorm 'cause that's where the rainbows come from. It only comes with a bunch of rain. And so I did have some intense moments and it went through darkness. And that was the beauty of it. You go through that and then it's after that light shines through all of it that you come out as a rainbow. Specifically a lot of drops of water, so a lot of people going through their stuff, coming out together, creating that rainbow. And so even though I just created a presentation about the darkness in it, too, I still catch myself surprised. The reason we're working on laughter, the reason I'm working on all this, is because that's part of our journey. 

ACT: I call people like you 'bright-siders'. And I don't know that people often understand what I mean, but when I'm talking to someone else about optimistic and happy rainbow folks, I call them bright-siders. I've even had some failed romantic relationships with them because I am NOT a bright-sider. It would be the last... of a hundred words, it wouldn't be one on my list. And that's actually something I really enjoy about doing A Community Thread is that I end up having good conversations with people in a lot of different ways. And they tend to go in a particular direction because it's my project and I built the questions, but I still can learn a lot. And now have some endearing thoughts about bright-siders. 

PL: That's a totally fine term to use. I've been called - in a couple different communities I've gone through - the last true believer. When everyone else is jaded and giving up on this entire thing and I'm like, Why? But it still has all this potential. You gotta have that last true believer. To the tail end, Yeah, I see the realism in it, but we got this. So can I ask you another question? You're not a bright-sider. Are you a realist or a pessimist? Where do you fall?

ACT: I consider myself a realist. People have wanted to call me a pessimist, but I think those people are wrong. I'm almost constantly disappointed and I think you can’t be disappointed if you're a pessimist. I expect great things to happen and when they don't I take it hard. That's not pessimism. 

PL: No, totally realism. That was a big journey I went on - learning to have expectations without emotional attachment to expectations. Whereas there's this whole yoga thing, Remove all attachments and remove expectations, I'm like, No, no, have your expectations, just don't get emotion... expectation without attachment, love without attachment - all those things - still a journey I'm on, but it's been an interesting thing to think about. 

Ryan recommend Pinto to participate here. I met her very briefly as I was leaving their home after Ryan's interview, not knowing Ryan would refer here. So, on this morning she greeted me with a big hug and then we chatted for a little while in the warm spring sunshine before heading inside for the interview.

Todd Cover

Michelle Mitchell recommended Todd to this project. It took us a while to get a date and time nailed down, but we finally worked it out for this lovely spring morning. I showed up at Todd's door, which was wide open, and he greeted with me a smile as big as the room. We chatted over coffee and fresh pineapple for about an hour before getting into interview mode and connected well during that time, opening the door for a sense of familiarity in the interview portion of our conversation together and allowing us to dig pretty deep here. 

I occasionally run into people who shared Todd's belief that 'people are doing the best they can with the awareness they have' and, I have to say, that sentiment does not resonate with me at all. We have a great discussion regarding that towards the end of the interview and I’m a huge proponent of great discussion. I'm thankful for meeting him and chatting with him and I'm so glad to be able to share our conversation with you here. Keep an eye out for Todd. I'd pretty much guarantee that your encounter with him will lift your spirits. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

TC: My name is Todd Cover. My friend's call me TC. I am a human, living this human experience (laughs) - pretty excited about it. I've been in Bend since 1996. And I'm a dreamer and an adventurer - I love new experiences. And just doing my best to suck the life out of this human experience the best I can and also help people realize their greatness, as well. 

ACT: I'm starting to offer a warning or a healthy encouragement to avoid answering this question in a particular way. I've found through asking these questions, that there's an unspoken list of right answers that people will grab. It makes them a feel a certain way to say and it makes them look a certain way to say it. And I think that's about as deep as it goes. So, avoid that as much as possible for this. I want to know what concerns you about the human experience - yours, mine, everybody around you, and all the people in the world. What breaks your heart? What makes you sad? What affects you personally? And then what motivates you to do something about that? 

TC: That's a great question. I'd have to say - like we were talking earlier - fear, I think, is probably the biggest thing that makes me the saddest. And how our society pumps fear for their own power. It feels with social media, the media, the government, pushing fear to have material gain is really sad.

You know, I've been traveling the world the last ten years of my life - traveling with different cultures and seeing how the family unit is a lot tighter in these countries. I just got back from Peru and seeing multiple generations living together... our society has become pretty separated from that. And I think that that is a detriment to the family unit. You know, we're moving to these big cities, we're moving from our towns - all in the name of wanting more money, more success, more material things. And I feel people are really unhappy. It's something that can never be achieved to the max. I believe that self-worth and love comes from within. I think people are looking towards that happiness from outside influences.

Also looking at those countries and the way they treat their elderly, the way that they treat the people with mental disorders and diseases, you know, I think our glamorous society kinda pushes the elderly away and also people with mental illness. I think that countries like Peru really covet those people and look up to their elderly. And I think that's something that we've gotten away from and I think that's a really big detriment to the fabric of our existence - of togetherness. It feels sad to me to see how that's happening - the separateness and the social media and how we're becoming further and further away from each other instead of getting closer together, which we're innately, as humans, meant to be. 

ACT: I'm just going to pull a little more out of that if you don't mind. We've been talking for an hour or so, so I feel like we're on a pretty similar wavelength, but for those that haven't been talking with you for the last hour... What's pitched to us in overt and quieter ways unfortunately isn't labeled "fear". And I think when people hear that they might think, "I'm not afraid." We have this bristle - why in the world would I admit a weakness out of a thing I'm putting all of my time and energy into pursuing? So, somehow we need to call it what it is. People are unaware, I think, of these actions that are really detrimental  to themselves and everybody around them as being fear. So, what's the simplest way to show that to people? And I think this is potentially really dangerous territory because we want to be right. You want to be right. I want to be right. We all kind of want to be right in some way. Even if it's just to believe in our own path. So, what's the simplest, kindest, and also most direct way to share with people - so many people - that these things that we do are coming from fear and not from love and we're never gonna find what we're looking for? Do you have language for that? Does that resonate with you? 

TC: Yeah. It totally resonates with me. How do we hold space for people to heal? What do we do to be able to allow people to tap into their innate greatness? I guess I can only speak from my own experience about trying to identify the human experience and looking at my own experience in this and kind of diving deep into what's causing this pain and suffering in people. What's causing suicides to happen and widespread depression amongst people that live in Bend? We have a great life here and I hear about depression a lot. I have depression and have experienced it myself, as well. And I think a lot of it comes from my mind of not being good, and not being successful enough, and not having enough money, and not being accepted, and not being loved or whatever these feelings the human experience has.

A lot of it has been taught by our parents in ways and it's been their parents and their parents and their parents. Trying to - like we talked about earlier - transcend the things that are inhibiting me from loving myself unconditionally, breaking those belief systems, breaking the mold of this box that society wants to put me in - put us in - so that we can be creative and expressive. Human beings not human doings, right? I think we have a lot of things against us. A mortgage payment, and a car payment, and a family and all these things - this big ball that we have to keep in the air. There's a lot of things that are working against us. And then we have to try to - in that time - find our own self love and self worth and have time for ourselves. It feels like there's a lot against us in that way. 

My own personal mission is love myself unconditionally and then also allow people to and allow spaces for people to be able to do the same. Whether that's through events - I have a little community gathering event that I have that's going on its 6th year called Us Fest - working with my business partner, Amy, with The Courage Tribe - trying to promote togetherness through the business channel, through community events, doing Man Camp. My mission, I guess, is to be able to hold those spaces for people to talk amongst each other to be able to be vulnerable to be able to grow and learn and ultimately transcending fear because fear is the base of all those problems. 

I was listening to Jason Silva - it was wonderful and I'm excited to share his podcast with you; he's kinda my new hero - and this question was asked, What's the greatest problem with our species? And one of the biggest things is fear of death. And a lot of people are using fear of death as control. And you see it with maybe the government saying the immigrants are gonna come and they're gonna steal your freedom. Or that person's gonna take your job. Or that guy's gonna take your girlfriend. There's all these things that are fearful amongst… and I guess I kinda got off the subject a little bit in terms of death. I think organized religion has created a of that as well. And I believe in spirits and the higher power, but there's been a lot of fear that's been built across that. And it's all about the great mystery of not knowing what's out there in terms of the next... where we go, where our souls go when we pass away. And I think there's people that have leveraged that and used that to their advantage. That's from him and it really resonated with me, too, as the biggest problem in our society. 

ACT: As you make your way on a daily basis - on just a regular old, mundane, ho-hum, you've got grocery shopping and banking and you've-got-to-buy-a-pair-of-pants-today kind of stuff - what do people mean to you? What do we mean to each other, individual to individual, as we go about our business? 

TC: Well, I guess, the first part of that question is - putting on my pants and going to the grocery store and stuff like that - I really do my best to try to do everything with a sense of joy and a sense of wonderment. I know it's easy to get caught in our mundane life and the structures - like we talked earlier about the difference between this disciplinary structural life that we have to live because it's expensive to be an American and also that chaos, that creative side, that feeling of wanting to explore and wanting to paint or wanting to meet new people. We almost have to be kind of equal in both of those. 

And the second part of the question itself, you know, everybody's doing the best they can with the level of awareness that they have. Like I said, developing unconditional self love is the most important thing so you can be an influence in ways or be able to be an example of what it is and to just try to spread joy. Like you said, you like to hike and walk around and smile at people. And even that just little smile will change their day or help influence their day.

I think humans are doing the best they can. I think we're up against a lot of separateness and lack of inclusion and a lot of going back to fear, again, with the media and everything. And I think it's our duty, just like what you're doing here, is to allow people to express themselves. And to be able to teach and learn and be open and ultimately heal.

And back to the question of day-to-day life, I'm always just stoked beyond belief that I live here in Bend. And always looking at the mountains or spending time in nature brings me back to center. And it's nice that we have access to that, too. If I'm maybe having a shitty day, I can take a drive out to the woods and walk around for a little bit and kind of get my center a little bit more. Hopefully that answered the question (laughs). Kind of rambling...

ACT: I want to go a little further with that one, too, based on the conversation we had before we turned the recorder on. The other day I met someone and he was a nice enough person. We engaged in thoughtful back and forth conversation. But he said something that has stuck with me. He said, 'I'm not causing any harm.' That's his goal is just go out and do no harm. And it just irritated me a lot. Not necessarily with judgment about him individually - I don't exactly know how deeply he meant that - but I think in general there is a bit of that mentality.

And just to elude to what you were saying before - take care of yourself. Right? Be in control of your perceptions, your feelings, how you respond to the thing. And as someone who's a pretty fiery person, that's often been used against me in a very unsophisticated way - the reactionary person is the one at fault. You can be harmed, but if you respond, that person always gets the greater punishment for some reason. So, I kind of want to make a big leap here. What's your idea of the contrast of 'go out and do no harm' transitioning into 'you've got to be on top of yourself; take care of your own filter; how you respond; what that might be as an example to others' to the difference between that and these people who are out in it, very visibly fighting it - protestors, marchers, civil rights activists, and social justice lawyers, those deep human pains that people are trying to right. How do you feel about that spectrum? 

TC: Well, I think if we can live, like I said, that understanding that everybody's doing the best they can with the level of awareness. This might be stretching it, but Charles Manson was doing the best he [could] with the level of awareness that he had at the time. If he knew any other awareness he wouldn't have done what he did. Or anybody, for that matter. 

So, I look at life and people in a lens of that and that gives me the ability to have compassion for everybody because they are doing the best they can. We're all on our individual path and experience and how we want to create this motion picture of our lives is all up to us. If people want to be activists and talk about it and fight for what they believe in, that's amazing. If people want to be complacent and just go to work and go home and mow their lawn on Saturday and do that and watch TV and that's their life, then that's fine, too. I can feel the level of frustration that people have like, God, you just want to shake people. Hey, wake up a little! See this experience as being great. I'm just not trying to do any harm - maybe the guy you had that conversation with has thoughts of harming people (laughs). Maybe he's just like, I'm just trying to maintain my experience here so I don't do anything stupid. (Laughs) Maybe. 

I think that I've been really fortunate to have a tribe and group of friends - and Bend has been amazing in terms of growing together and understanding the nature of reality and expanding our consciousness with different modalities and changing what we talk about. And the human experience is really pretty amazing. That we're even here. We're spinning in a ball in the middle of nowhere, right, in a galaxy that's in the middle of nowhere (laughs). So, I think having a lightness to life and maybe not trying to take it so seriously and just basking in the joy of it.

And yeah, of course there's issues. I have an incurable disease - multiple sclerosis - that I live with on a daily basis. I've never felt a victim of it. I've never felt like it's been Poor me. I've always thought blessed that I have it; I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't have this adversity. And I know a lot of people are going through a lot of stuff. And I think that always going back to that place of, I'm doing the best I can with the level of awareness I have. And my goal in my life is to increase my level of awareness (laughs). And if I can increase my level of awareness and I can have conversations with you or I can talk with my friends or I can put on events that can allow people to also tap into their greater awareness and awakening, then that's the secret sauce, I think, in humanity. Right? And some people are gonna get it and some people aren't. And some people want to wake up and some people don't. Some people are complacent.

I looked at people in Peru when I went on my trip there and they're so connected to Mother Nature - Pachamama is their word for Mother Nature - and they're so connected to the elements. And they're so happy - they're joyful people. And it doesn't feel like there's a lot of crime. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of suffering there. There's no homeless people. Everyone's taken care of. Everyone has an opportunity to make money. I saw a lady at an outdoor market and she had three peaches and three potatoes amongst all these people that had all these other things - bug bushels of corn and all this stuff. She just had this and you could tell she... you know, her clothes were a little ratted and different things, but she had an opportunity to make it. You know? I'm kinda just rolling on a tangent here (laughs) but it feels more human there. They feel more connected to each other. They feel more connected to the Earth. They feel more connected to the elements. They feel more connected to each other.

I think we have become really separated from that. And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier is we've really gone back to... this material god that we're worshipping - the movie stars on TV, these people that are glamorous, and these false images of these people and that's what we're looking up to. Or social media feeds and people are saying, Hey, this is my great life and look at this and how good I am. And then they're distracted from their own greatness and their own life. You know, I think that that's a big problem. I think the closer we become to ourselves and to nature and our innate humanness is what's gonna help people achieve their greatest awareness. I don't know if I got the question right. 

ACT: This next question that I would typically ask you've touched on quite a lot, but I'm gonna go for it anyway 'cause I think you've got a little more on it. What does community mean to you? And specifically being part of community - of humanity, essentially, or of all living species on Earth - with all of the disparities of agenda? And maybe more specifically, if you're a person who values community and relationships and celebrating what people have to offer - like the woman with her potatoes - what does it mean to you and how are you affected by those people who have a different agenda and perhaps an agenda that is actually detrimental to yours? 

TC: Well, I go back to everybody's doing the best they can with the awareness that they have. 

ACT: But that awareness piece is the fuzzy, mystery, invisible cloud in the room. That's not nothing. Do you come across that by accident?  

TC: No, I think it's maybe divinely planned that some people have the opportunity to experience a different sense of reality than others. If somebody grows up and their family has a bunch of money and their belief system is You need to work hard and you need to work 70 hours a week and you need to have a family and white picket fence and a dog and you need to go to church once a week and that's their reality. Because that's what they've been raised as. Right? In another sense, you could have been raised in that same family and then went and traveled the world and had a new experience, had a different opening experience of reality and what reality really is on a bigger scale.

I look at some of my friends from the Midwest that have followed that typical American path - you go to high school, you go to college, you get a family, you have a dog, you stay in the same job as long as you can - I know that's kind of an anomaly these days - and you do that and then you go to church and you're in this and you work 50 hours a week and you come home on Saturday, like I said, and mow your lawn and you watch football and that's your reality and that's all you know. And then there's people where we live on the West Coast or maybe more of a liberal mindset that want to understand this whole experience and how fascinating it is. 

Going back to the question, do I feel threatened potentially or impeded by those people that have that belief system? Or do I feel like I can be an influence on them at any point? I mean, all I can do is just do the best I can. And if I can have a conversation with somebody like that; if I can allow somebody to see the greater picture - who's to say that theirs is wrong and mine's right? And it's not a competition at all. This is my motion picture and that's their motion picture of their life. And everybody is - I'm not gonna say it another time - but it's like... they're just living their experience from how they're belief system has been set up in their life. And how they congregate, you know. Guys at the golf course and their golf buddies and they sit around and talk about golf and football and get drunk and they do that every Saturday and that's what brings them joy. I can't really have an expectation of that or a comment on their experience because that's what they're doing. I'm just doing my own path and living my own truth. Yeah, I don't look at it as competition, I guess, or a threat at all. 

I mean, I look at - going back to the question - the sadness and the social media and the separation and how far we've become... we live in these big houses and some people don't even know their neighbors. There's a lot of separateness. And as humans, we want inclusion. We want to feel loved. We want to feel part of something. We want to feel a part of a community. We want to feel part of a movement, if you want to say. And that's why people attach themselves to these movements that are happening. People want to feel love and they want to feel that - everybody. And some people have greater access and understand that than others.

And the machine, as I call it - the material god that we've created - it wants us separate almost. It almost feels like it's separating us so they can sell us more shit that we don't need. Or it can glamorize this life and hence, going back to putting elderly people in a home and not having them live with you like other cultures do. Or kicking mental illness people out and having them live on the streets and be homeless. It's just this sense of separation. If we're gonna evolve and heal as a species, which I believe is happening, we need to come together. And that's what I hope to do and feel like I'm doing in some ways. Hopefully I answered the question (laughs). 

ACT: I'm pushing you a little harder than most. 

TC: Oh, good! I like it (laughs). Push away. 

ACT: So you can answer this one shortly if you want. Do you think the differences in value systems are the beauty? 

TC: Yeah. I think diversity is amazing in terms of belief systems. 

ACT: I thought you might say that and I think many people would say that. I might say it. If I said that, I would also then be like, 'Huh. Did I just say that? Do I really believe it?' Because I am compelled to change people. I don't mean this as an attack, but I've heard two different things from you. One is it's all groovy and everybody can be how they want. And the other is you have a compulsion to affect change. 

TC: Totally, but it's their opportunity to hop on board. All I can do is do the best I can and give them a platform to be able to come to the table and to want to do it. But I can't force people to do that. And it is all groovy 'cause the whole human experience is happening regardless of my effect on it. It's gonna happen regardless, right? 

ACT: Normally I would ask 'do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change?' But I think I want to change it for you. Do you think that you should or can affect positive change? 

TC: Yeah, absolutely. I believe that I already am in a lot of ways. I believe that I've kind of made it almost my personal mission in life to be able to help give opportunities for people or venues or trips or opportunities for people to come to the table that want to evolve and want to be the best people they can be. And it all boils down to this the self love piece, right - the self compassion, the unconditional self love, which I'm still working on. I still have a ways to go - I still have doubts; I have fears; I have feelings of lack of inclusion; I have fear of some depression that happens when the weather gets shitty - I go through those experiences. But, like we talked about earlier, all I can do is do that for myself and be the example and also if I can take one person along and say, Hey, let's talk about this life experience. What's going on in your life? Why are you depressed? What's the cause - what's your root belief system that you're depressed? Where does that come from? Does it come from your family? Does it come from your grandparents? Does it come from a past relationship? If I can have a conversation and have somebody's light go off that says, Wow, you're right. And look at 'em a couple months later and they say, Wow, I'm so much lighter and I feel so much better about myself. Then that's it (laughs).

To have this vision of wanting to change the world or doing all this, all we can do is just change in our scope of right here - having this conversation. This is all we can change. You know, and I understand, kinda going back to people that are standing up and these human rights activists and all these things that they're doing - which is wonderful. And there's people that are taking a big stand on a lot of these issues - environmental issues and human rights issues and all these - and my prayers and blessings go out to all those people. But all I can do in the whole grand scheme of things is control my sphere right here. And hopefully be an influence on people to say, Wow, why is he so joyful? Or, Why is he so happy? Or, Oh, he just smiled at me. Maybe I smile at somebody that had a bad day and then they come back to me and say, Why are you so happy? Why are you feeling that way? And then I can say, Well, this, this, and this. And then their day is better. Just a little change. Just a little change.

And also, the calamity of errors, right, that we're even here doing this is a miracle. 4.5 billion years of evolution, spinning in a ball, in the middle of a sun, in the middle of nowhere - it's amazing that we're even actually here having this conversation. And I kind of feel the lightness. I'm not scared for death. I welcome it. It's gonna happen. It's like the great mystery, the ultimate experience. I have that softness about this experience and this feeling of joy. And hopefully I can share that with other people, too. 

ACT: I don't get tons of feedback on this project, but one of the pieces was people wanted to hear a little bit more from me, so I started to ask if people wanted to ask me a question. And I, of course, wrestle with that because it's putting myself in some seat of importance. Why does anybody want to hear from me? But also, why does anybody want to hear from you? So, I figured we could trade. 

TC: Yeah, for sure. Well, 'cause I think you're important. And your work is important. What you're doing here is you're tapping into people's greatness. Whether that's your mission or not, I think you're an intellectual person that wants to see what's going on outside yourself. Because you're probably gaining wisdom and self-understanding for yourself by these interviews, too. So, good for you. 

ACT: Thanks. So, do you want to ask me anything? And it's for your benefit, for mine, and for whoever might be paying attention. 

TC: What holds us back as humans? What's the number one thing that comes to your mind that holds us back for humans to be able to tap into our innate greatness? 

ACT: My opinion is that we could have the same interview tomorrow and we'd have a different conversation, so this answer is my answer for here and now. She's an extremely controversial author, especially among the group of people that I socialize with - Ayn Rand has become kind of the spokesperson - I'm not sure she was up for it - but for the ultra-conservative crowd. I think she's a brilliant writer and she has a quote that I've adopted and definitely resonates with the way I live my life and it helps me get through times of extreme difficulty. She says, 'A man with no values is at the mercy of anyone's will.' And that's what I am witnessing. That's what I witness when I hear the news. That's what I witness when I look at Trump and all his troop of fools - and I do mean offense by that. That's what I witness when I hear about genocide. That's what I witness when I hear about rainforest destruction. That's what I witness when I hear about whoever Greenpeace is up against today. That's what I witness when I think about sex trafficking. About rape. About racism. On and on and on. What I have come to believe is that people aren't taking enough pride in how they think and feel about something. I actually don't believe for a single second that someone, if they really were to spend the time - if they could access the ability to think deeply and introspectively - that they find in joy in these atrocious activities. 

And that makes me feel hate and deep, deep, deep anger, and resentment. And also pity and sadness for them because they're not having the right experience. And I know this is very 'I'm right and you're wrong' and I guess I've just decided that I'm okay with that. You don't have to drink my Kool-Aid; you don't have to attend my church; you don't have to believe what I have to say, but the things that I envision about a beautiful world are things that are better for everybody. And that's what makes me feel okay about how I feel.

I think people are cowards and they're cowards for a variety of reasons. They're cowards because of the way they were brought up, the world they were born into, the messages that we're fed, the advertising that we receive. There's just a lack of boldness and a lack of ability to stand up for what you believe against all odds. I think that's what's causing us to go astray. What causes that? How far can we deconstruct this, right, before we're 4.5 billion years ago, spinning? I don't know. But, as an active, day-to-day decision-making process, I think we're falling short in that realm. 

TC: Absolutely. And you're doing this project, which is helping. What are you doing in your own sphere of influence to be an influence and be a change - be the change you want to see? There's all these atrocious things that are going off in the world and you feel helpless at times. And it will drive you mad (laughs). Really. Because if you say, Oh, well, this is happening here and this is going on here and the fucking plastics here and this... it would drive you crazy. 

ACT: I stand up for others and I stand up for myself when I'm wronged. I tell people. 'It's not the way. You're wrong.' And sometimes that comes out in less desirable ways. Sometimes that could be throwing my bike down and being like, 'What's your fucking problem? Why you gonna cut me off?' But in that moment, I'm still standing up for my values of 'You need to respect me. I'm willing to respect you. And you need to respect me. And then that goes for everybody else that you ever encounter.' What I'm doing is I show up on time. I be where I say I'm gonna be and I do what I say I'm gonna do. I offer people a smile. My first action to people is kindness. It's awareness; it's a focus; it's an attention; it's a gift of time. I try not to be a busy person because I have no idea what those interactions are gonna be. 

TC: So, you come at it with a sense of joyful and love, but if somebody doesn't return that in favor - they cut you off or something like that - then what's your reaction? 

ACT: It's that I think we need to stop doing those things. We need to redirect and we need to be better - no matter how busy, no matter how late. There's so many other things that affected that for you. Your being late isn't really my problem. Your being frustrated at someone on a bicycle is not my problem but it becomes my problem because you're endangering my life.

You brought it up a few times, you're gonna look at somebody and smile at them and that might change their day. It definitely will definitely change their day if you don't look at them and smile at them. Because somebody like me is really sensitive to that kind of thing. Somebody like me, then, spends time being like, 'What is wrong with people?! Why aren't people friendly?!' I'm not going home being like, 'Man, why was that weirdo smiling at me as he was walking down the street?' Ever! That's never my question.

So, yeah, I get really fired up about this stuff. But I think we're just not... it's not just about being kind and it's not even about doing it out of a sense of duty; you just have to want things to be better and then you have to act accordingly. It is that. It is that 'Be the change you want to see.' And I fail at it every day. And I beat myself up for it. It makes me feel sad and frustrated and 'when am I ever gonna get it?' And maybe I'm not, but I'm gonna keep trying. I'm gonna keep working my ass off for it. Because why else? What else is there to do? Just fall into the flow that I'm complaining about? Participate in the madness? And live my life until I can't walk and I'm peeing in a bag and complaining about my hospice? That doesn't sound cool. 

TC: No. Definitely not. Well, I commend you for living your truth. I think that every experience is just another layer in our greatness. Just continue to look at yourself and do the work internally. Where does that frustration come from? Where does the anger in what somebody did to you - where does that come from? Where does that belief system come from? Because it's not healthy, I don't think, to get wrapped up in that. It doesn't feel healthy to get wrapped up in what somebody else's experience affected your experience. Because, once again, they're doing the best they can. It's all they knew. Person doesn't know how to drive; that's not your problem (laughs). Or whatever. 

ACT: Yeah but again, it's that same thing - it is my problem because they almost killed me. Or it is my problem because you're not doing the best you can - I guess this is now technically not seeing things eye to eye - you're not doing the best you can if you're raping somebody. I don't believe it. You're not doing the best you can if you're committing genocide. You're not doing the best you can. You're putting yourself first and you're taking all your desires first. And that takes... that's active. That's not passive. 

TC: But that's their awareness. If they knew any different, they wouldn't do it. 

ACT: I don't know. I think they know different. They have all the examples around them. It's almost like you're saying you don't think there's mal-intent. 

TC: I think if somebody's level of awareness was different they wouldn't do it. And my awareness of knowing that something's right or wrong... a lot of people, that's their belief. That's what they know. That's all they know. They wouldn't do it. Obviously these huge, atrocious things are happening to our species - to humans - that we're doing to each other. Same thing with the guy that doesn't pay his employees shit and makes 20 million/billion dollars a year. That's his awareness. That's all he knows how to do. And it is fueled by greed. And fueled by power. And fueled by fear. And all these things that make that person do that.

You know. I think, from my own perspective, it gives me a sense of relief to be able to know that if their awareness was different, then they wouldn't do it. But that's all they knew. Because they wouldn't have done it. And understanding, yeah, they have influences and there's good people out there and there's the church and there's all these things that people could look up to - that person that caused a rape or whatever - but they didn't follow it. They didn't follow those influences or they wouldn't have done it. That's in the forefront of their awareness. 

ACT: But what's the resolve to that? To what end? 

TC: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what that is. Changing yourself. You know? 'Cause that's all you have control over. But it is sad (laughs). 

ACT: That's wild. It's a wild... 

TC: It's a wild experience, this human thing. Isn't it? Yeah. It really is. 

ACT: Do you want to say anything in closing?

TC: No. (Laughs) This has been great! I guess I really appreciate you and what you're doing. And I appreciate your compassion and passion. Because there's a lot in there. You wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't.

ACT: I've got a lot of passion. 

TC: I know. I like that fire. It's good. It gets shit done. 

ACT: This is funny. I'll leave it on the record. I went to a hyper-conservative college and didn't drink and wasn't doing drugs or anything until later in life. During this time I wasn't doing any of that stuff. But there were all these rules. It was really, really strict. Curfews and all this stuff. I was always getting in trouble for pretty basic stuff like rappelling out the window - little things. And I got in trouble again for something - I don't recall the details of this particular circumstance. You know, I'm 20 years old or something - I'm kind of past being reprimanded for silly things. And I remember one of the heads of the college and I had a meeting. It took all that he had to do it, but he did it and he meant it and he praised me for my passion (laughs). He meant it. It wasn't quite a backhanded compliment, but it was headed in that direction. And that's funny - I had forgotten about that until you just said that. So, yeah, it's there. 

TC: It is there. Yeah, it's awesome. The stories you've told me about your life and how you came to this point right now and the sacrifices you made to be able to do what makes you come alive - what taps into your innate liveness - is doing this. And having passion for this and searching for the answers and understanding of the human condition - why there is suffering and why there is sadness and What the fuck?! - that's passionate. Because it's important. And you're doing the work. I'm doing the work. A lot people that I've listened to your interviews are doing the work in community.

You know, I think there's a big tipping point that's happening right now with the political system - this is all happening exactly the way it's supposed to. It's all happening for our greater increased awareness - to be like, Whoa, wait a minute. I need to wake the fuck up because shit's getting weird and my kids are being taught this and the separateness is happening and materialism... People are waking up. And it's happening for exactly the way it's supposed to. And I'm stoked to be a part of the awakening and the awareness and to be able to see other people that are doing the same thing. It's the biggest joy in the world, I think, is to be able to see people evolve and be the best they can be. And bad shit's gonna happen. Bad shit's gonna happen to me and you and all of us. It's how we deal with it and how we relate to it and how we send compassion to it, send love to it. Unless something's happening in my sphere of influence, then I can't control it. You know? I stopped watching the news. I do social media every once in a while, but... just trying to live my own life. 

Michelle Mitchell recommended Todd to this project. It took us a while to get a date and time nailed down, but we finally worked it out for this lovely spring morning. I showed up at Todd's door, which was wide open, and he greeted with me a smile as big as the room.

Sharon Balsamo

Natalie Murphy recommended Sharon to participate here and she readily accepted the invitation. This was the absolute perfect interview for this particular day. I went into it feeling defeated but within minutes of chatting with Sharon I was completely turned around. We had a lively conversation and I enjoyed watching Sharon come alive as she spoke about what matters to her. I am so thankful that we were able to meet in the middle, as it were. Sharon didn’t overpower my feelings of frustration with over-the-top optimism or disingenuous and trite positivity, but she did articulate her truth with passion and her energy, as it turns out, was contagious. Isn’t it interesting how it can go either way? Sometimes we can let somebody bring us down and other times we just can’t help but be lifted up. This conversation meant a lot to me and if you only have time to read or listen to one of these interviews, I'd highly recommend starting with this one.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

SB: My name is Sharon Balsamo. And how I would describe myself - umm, I am a woman living in Bend. I work as a therapist and as a coach. I am a wife - I'm married to Jospeh Balsamo - and we have a son, little JoJo. I would describe myself as, I don't know, a magical person (laughs). That's sort of my jam. I love to be in those spaces of mystery and play and self-exploration. That's really what lights my fire - in a nutshell (laughs). 

ACT: This is a multi-part, so give me a minute to get it all out. What concerns you about life today? What breaks your heart? What makes you sad? What affects you personally? This is one of those questions - it's easy to say some bigger social cause is what breaks your heart, but I have a hard time believing it. So what is it that really gets under your skin and frustrates you and then what motivates you to do something about it? 

SB: Okay, that's a great question. It is a very big question. Well, I think what has been most impacting me right now is the concepts of leadership and power. So, I work in the spiritual growth industry. And I work as a spiritual coach. I love what I do. I have spent a lot of time in my life trying to find teachers and trying to learn as much as I can about this path and about myself. I'm trying to think of how to sum this up without diving into the whole, big, deep thing. So, I've been working with a teacher who I really admired and looked up to and I've learned a lot from her. And she has recently fallen off of her pedestal and shown herself as a flawed human being, as we all are. And so what I have been thinking a lot about is how I look at authority figures and how I kind of attach myself to authority figures, seeking validation, and seeking legitimacy - that's a big one for me because I'm a Virgo and so I like to feel like what I'm doing is grounded in practicality and reality and I'm also this very magical person, right? So, I love to do magic. I love synchronicity. I love working with herbs and with goddesses, Tarot cards - all of that. And so, it's been this sort of constant conflict for me between these two sides of myself and feeling like I can't give myself permission to be magical because it's not grounded in what's real. And so, I seek these authority figures to give me permission to do what I really want to do. And so many times that I've done that, it has wounded me. Because I have been giving my power away to somebody else. 

And so, I'm passionate about that for myself right now 'cause I am so deep in it right now. My whole structures of belief about power and integrity and leadership and everything is just sort of currently being dismantled. I'm trying to piece it back together because the other piece of that is that's what I do - I help empower people. That really matters to me in my work. But also, I see that tendency that we have to put people on a pedestal. And I've had clients tell me, You're the only person who's ever helped me. And that is totally an ego stroke. We want to believe, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah - that's me. I did all this work and now I'm helping you. And I'm so amazing in that. And so, ego in this industry is the shadow side of the spiritual growth industry - I guess is what I want to say about that. Ego is a part of who we are - we can't eliminate it - but it really can come into play and then we use all this spiritual jargon like high vibration, love and light, and all that stuff to sort of push under the rug these darker parts of ourselves that we're seeking approval; we're seeking power; we're seeking validation; we're seeking permission; we're seeking somebody to tell us it's okay to be ourselves. 

And I work with mostly girls and women and so I see that as just so foundational to who we are. We do not believe we can do anything that we want to do unless somebody bestows us permission first. And that is so disempowering. And so, what I really think about - this is sort of the next level of that, okay - I've been thinking a lot about how I work with mostly people of privilege - white women of privilege. I work with a lot of them. And I love them. And there's been this sort of pull - this internal struggle - around that of like, I provide my services to women who can pay for my services. The other side of that coin is I want to empower people who really are disempowered. Like people who are oppressed because of the color of their skin or their sexuality or, you know, all of those pieces. And I do work with some people who fall into those categories. But what I think about with upper-class white women is that they believe that they are disempowered. They've been programmed to believe that and so they spend a lot of their attention on what our culture has taught them is empowering, like beauty and material objects and status - those kinds of things. And so, they find that when they attain those things they're not fulfilled by them. They feel empty and hollow inside and then they feel really guilty about that. They're like, Oh, I have everything I could ever want. What's wrong with me? I have no right to be depressed. I have no right to feel anxious. And so, what some of them are coming to understand is that those are the things that keep us busy so we're not actually paying attention to what is really happening. 

So, what I see in the white woman's story of disempowerment is when we have that story - Oh, I can't really change things or Nobody's gonna listen to me or I don't have permission or That's too big... Who do I think I am? This is a big story - who do you think you are to think that you could be powerful or be a leader or that you could speak up? That you could hold somebody accountable for injustice? That's not your place. And so, that story that we have keeps us complicit in a system that oppresses other people. So, we are - through our disempowerment - we are contributing to that system, actually. So, the work that I do with women and with girls around this is when we become empowered, when we realize that we have a right to speak our truth, we have to pursue what we feel passionate about. We have a right to not be apologetic for our existence. These are the deep-rooted beliefs that we have built inside of us because of the culture that we grew up in, that we have have created and are creating every day. We are all contributing to this. When we are in that place - when we are living our truth and being in our power - we start to see the veil becomes lifted. And we start to see, Okay, this feels really good to me. Here's this person that can't even feed her children. There's no way she can attain this because of the system that we are creating. And we are agreeing to it. We are benefitting from it. 

And so, I do feel really passionate about our work. Even the work that you're doing, right - you're interviewing people; you're hearing people; you're holding space for people - that is a radical act. We think we have to do all these big, crazy things to change the system. No, we don't. We don't. We all just need to do our piece. And if we're all doing our piece, the system will change. And so, I'm doing my piece by doing my work. And that's what I feel really passionate about. I have to do my work. I have to look at my shadow stuff. I have to look at where I was drawn to this teacher because she was so beautiful and she created all this beautiful stuff and she was so powerful and she had such influence and I wanted a piece of that. And so I was complicit in her business model that was unethical and harming people because I was gaining from it. That's been hard - hard to look at again. Because I've gone through this several times - many layers of this process - of like, Oh yeah, there it is again. There's my tendency to do that. And to see how we all can have that tendency to give our power away, to be drawn in by pretty things, to be drawn in by power, and to let go of the values that we need to start really embodying and building into the foundations of our systems which we do not have right now. Does that make sense? 

ACT: Sure. It's powerful. It's a great answer - in a word. 

SB: Thank you. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

SB: Everything. In the science of neurobiology and attachment studies the research that's coming out right now is this understanding that it is all about attachment. It is all about our relationships to each other. The moment that we come into the world - how we are welcomed into the world; how our mothers are cared for so that they can care for us - that's the foundation of our neural networks. Our neural pathways are starting to form right away. And so the experiences that we have human to human - that is the first biological need that we have. Because without connection we would die as infants. We would die! As babies and as humans all the way up until the day that we die, we register emotional pain - our brains and our bodies register it - the same as physical pain. And so the pain of abandonment and neglect - even if it's just a small, like, I'm crying and you didn't respond to it - that's like a break in connection and it affects our neural pathways.

So, I think about the trauma work that I've done as a child and when I think about the times that I felt abandoned or neglected or unloveable, those were the most damaging to me. And those were the most healing I had to do. And so, the work that I do now is everything is about connection. And I think for me having a child, it's just took it to the whole next level. I get so much out of being a mother. I mean, it's the jam. It's like the thing that matters the most to me. And it's the thing that I get the most out of. So, I think that human connection is what is gonna bring us out of this mess. Because if we don't start understanding how much we do actually matter to each other, we're just gonna take everything down. But I don't believe that we're going to. I'm optimistic. Yeah. I have to be (smiles). 

ACT: What does community mean to you? And take the geography out of this - that is not my interest. What does it mean to you to be part of community with so many differences? To refer to what you just said, what does it mean to you to be part of community when it seems to me like so many people don't have this appreciation for each other? And you can argue that if that's not your experience. 

SB: Oh gosh. That's tough. What does it mean to be part of community when other people don't have that perception about community?

ACT: Yeah. Just with all of the differences. The differences of opinion and agenda and the differences of how we do value each other or do not value each other. The difference of  valuing each other if it helps you. There's a long list of negative behaviors that we exhibit in line at the grocery store, in traffic, in the grander human scale of 'I'm better than you because of my color, because of my height, because of eye color, my skin tone, my cultural upbringing, my ethnicity, my geography, 'cause my nose is different than yours' - to the point of genocide and nuclear war. 

SB: Okay. I guess the way that I try to see it is that humans - we're in an evolution. I try to look at it as like we're in our process. We're all in our process. And so, some people are maybe farther along in the process of understanding relationship and community than others. And those are the people that I seek out. Because I do believe that my community needs to nourish me. And I have that expectation. And so, if it is more draining, then that is a person or a community that I will not necessarily invest my energy into. I think we are responsible to be mindful of who we're surrounding ourselves with and what we are accepting, I guess, if that makes sense. 

So, I think a piece of it, to speak to what you were talking to, I was raised Catholic and Baha'i - do you know anything about the Baha'i faith? It's kind of a newer religion. It's still a patriarchal religion in the tradition of Judaism and Christianity and Islam. It's sort of like the next iteration of that. They have this concept of unity through diversity. And so when I was growing up - in Virginia... it originated in the Middle East. In Iran there's a lot of people who became Baha'i because their prophet was Persian and now it's outlawed - because they outlawed that religion - and so a lot of Baha'is who were from Iran came to America. And so, we knew a lot of Iranians and people of color. There are Baha'i communities all over the world - it's a very diverse religion. And it's something that they really value. They value other religions. I mean, I'm not a scholar in the Baha'i faith, so there are things that I might be wrong about - I just want to give that as caveat - but my understanding is the idea is that God is like the hub of the wheel and each religion or tradition is like a spoke. There's a place for every tradition because the teachings are so aligned. And so, that was a concept that was taught to me as a very young child. My parents really value diversity. I grew up in a place with - there were like six military bases and my dad was in the military - and so there were people just from all over the country - all types of ethnicities, all types of races - and that was something that was really important to our family - that we were kind of in the mix of all of that. And it is an interesting contrast being here in Bend - that's different. 

But, for me, I see so much value in difference. That's what makes us strong. Some people are really, really great at math and we need those people. I am not one of those people. I'm great at relationship. And I can help people understand how relationship works and how to be functioning in relationship. And we all sort of serve this purpose. And I think that old way of saying that we have to be against each other - I think that way is dying. I think it's just old and tired. And I see the younger people coming up now. They have much lower tolerance for this mentality of we have to other you to make ourselves safe. I think that's just not been their experience. And I'm speaking super generally right now because I know that that isn't the case for everywhere all over the country. I think it's growing pain. And it's time for us to grow out of it. 

ACT: There's a few groups of words in this question. I've crafted it on purpose. I don't often go through this explanation regarding it, but I'm gonna do that for you 'cause I really like the way you're answering things. Pick one or pick all three - just let me know which one resonates with you and give me that answer. So, do you feel a sense of purpose? A compulsion to live with intention? Or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

SB: Well, obviously yes to all of those questions! Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm going through a little bit of a shift around the answers to those questions right now. Because obviously the answer is yes for me. I wouldn't be where I am or do what I do if the answer wasn't yes for all of those things. However, I think what's shifted for me... my past experience has been I need to do something. I need to make the world a better place. What is my purpose? What is this about? What's my work? And a lot of that has come from the trauma of my past around feeling solely responsible for the functioning of my family when my family was in chaos around me. Okay? I was like the mediator. I was the peacemaker. As I grew into an adult that's what that sort of translated into of like, The world is a shit show. It's time to fix it! Here I come! I just need to figure out the best way to fix this place! (Note: Sharon says this in a funny nerdy/superhero voice and laughs.) So, what has shifted for me, especially in this process with my teacher and watching the spiritual community around this teacher - how we're all trying to make sense of everything - what we are really understanding is we're all doing the work. We've all been doing the work. She hasn't been doing the work for us. She's been creating space for us to show up and do that work. And that's been really transformative for me. And also in doing this, I'm making a shift - I'm writing a book - so I'm focusing on my story, writing my story. And this creative process that I'm being called to for my own sake - not because I'm like, This is gonna save the world! - 'cause initially that's what my book was gonna do; it was gonna save people. No, this is for me. I'm doing this for me. 

In my spiritual work of really connecting with the Divine Feminine and Mother Earth as an embodiment of the Divine Feminine and then myself as an extension of Mother Earth - I see Mother Earth as the organism, if that makes sense, and myself as a part of her. And so, my work is important - it does have a purpose - but it's not anything special. It just is what it is. And I just gotta do what I gotta do. And when I do that, the way that our brains work - so, do you know about mirror neurons? Oh! Game changer! Oh my gosh! This is a game changer! What they are finding is that our neurons mirror each other. So now that we're in the same room together, interacting with each other, our neurons are firing similarly. We're having a similar emotional experience right now - that's what creates connection. And so, when you're walking down the street, your neurons impact every single person you pass. It's so profound! When you look at research of the science of attachment and neurobiology, so much of what I have learned in this role as a therapist is the most important thing that I can do - like what we were talking about earlier - is presence. It's just being fully present. Because then our neural pathways light up together. And that's really where healing and growth happens.

And so, when I am in that space, when I am in my presence, and when I am grounded, and when I am peaceful, and when I am joyful, and when I am living in my truth, and when I am expanding and contracting and all of those things, that creates another template for other people to see, Oh, okay, this is one way of doing it. And that's more important than me going out and saying, Okay, I'm gonna change your life. I'm gonna tell you how to live and what to do. And then you're gonna have it figured out. And you're welcome. And now I'm gonna go on to the next person. I think we need to... I want to get away from that of the guru model. No, we're all gurus. We're all teachers. We all just need to wake up and do our own work and seek our joy. I think ultimately that is our purpose. Our purpose is to be present and seek our joy and just live on the Earth. It's so beautiful here! You know?

And we have the power to create beautiful systems, too. Why wouldn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? So, that’s sort of how I'm looking at it. I can create my home in a way that feels beautiful and healing and that has an impact. You know? I can love my son unconditionally and give him space for his feelings and his process and that has an impact. And so, I see it as we're all just doing our piece. And we don't have to work as hard at it as we think we do because it's just happening naturally. We move towards growth and healing naturally. We just need the right conditions for it. So, all we need to do is facilitate the proper conditions for humanity to grow up. I feel like I'm giving really long answers to your questions.

ACT: It's good stuff. It's definitely changing the course of my day... which I guess I'll just go ahead and say something about. So, last night I spent some time with a couple of dear friends who are part of my life directly or only because of this project. I'm in a slump. I'm just not feeling it these days. I'm tired and A Community Thread just gets on my nerves. And so, coming in here today, I still kind of had that on. I was hopeful that it was gonna be a great interview - and it has been. Whenever I feel like this, I get one of those interviews that kind of gives me a little bit of energy. And I'm like, 'Well, obviously I should still be doing this.' 

So I came in here feeling a little 'meh'. And as you were just talking about the mirror neurons, I was wondering how is it so that sometimes we can have a shift like I've just experienced here today - where you've really encouraged me; you've lifted me up; I don't think that I've weighted you down... we did do that thing where I do feel like we're having a very similar experience here today. But other times the power of one's neurons can severely and negatively outpower someone else's. Do you have a sense as to why that is? In these little instances - a random engagement as you're walking through downtown - and on the greater scale - I know it's an extreme example - of genocide. What is it that allows something like this to happen versus something like that to happen? 

SB: I think it's in intention. Before you came in here or even on the way driving here, I was thinking about this interview and I was like, What am I gonna say? You know, the whole thing. And I was like, No, okay, get back to what you know? What do you know? I need to root myself in the Earth and I need to be clear about the kind of energy that I want to have today. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I don't know what our conversation's gonna look like. I can't plan to say the brilliant thing that's gonna... you know... but what I can do is I can be in my authentic space with it. Right? Because I've done a lot of intention and cultivation around my energy; this room has been created for growth (laughs). Period. So, I have incredible boundaries. And they're still a work in progress - they're not perfect. I think boundaries are huge. Boundaries are so huge because we often feel like we don't have control over our thoughts and our neural pathways when we really do. In the case of genocide, that is a very extreme case, but it's sort of like this gradual pushing of a boundary - of what's acceptable and what's acceptable and what's acceptable - and we're like, Okay, I guess I'll tolerate that. I guess I'll tolerate that. I guess I'll tolerate that. And then all of a sudden, we're living in accordance to somebody else's value system. 

And so, for me, it's a lot about getting really clear on what my value system is and what I will and will not allow in my energy field. I know that sounds super woo-woo, but that's what works for me. If somebody comes in here... first of all, I'm super clear about who I work with - that I work with people who are motivated to change and believe that they can because that energetically makes it possible for change to happen. So, I choose not to surround myself with people who are like, Well this is just the way that it is; I'm never gonna change; it's just always gonna be this way. Because I don't want that in my field. And I have compassion for people who are in that place. I'm not like, Oh, screw you. But I have to be discerning about what I allow in my brain.

And so it's the same as cultivating your Facebook feed. My husband will look at his and he will just get so riled up about... I mean, he's a pretty chill guy, so riled up is like, Oh man, this is bringing me down. I'm like, Dude, stop reading it! So, I think part of us feeds into the negativity because - well, I mean, this is gonna get a little esoteric - it's what's comfortable for us. We know trauma. We know disconnection. We know violence. We know anger. We know fear. And it's places that we're actually really comfortable being in because it's familiar. Even though it scares us and it hurts us, at least it's known. Because it really is the unknown that our brains fear the most because that could kill us 'cause we just don't know. Right? And our brains are designed to keep us alive. It doesn't care if we're happy or not; it doesn't care if we feel good; it really doesn't care. It just wants to keep us alive. And so, when we understand how our brains actually work and that our brain is always looking for threats, so of course we're gonna glom onto somebody who's saying, You're being threatened. There's danger here. We're gonna be like, Oh, good. Okay. Thanks for letting me know. Now I'm gonna be on the lookout. Oh, they're the dangerous ones? Great! Thanks for letting me know. Now I'm gonna be on the lookout. It's just human wiring. And so, until we start getting mindful and intentional about like, Okay, I'm not using that wiring anymore because it's not effective and it's actually making everything worse. But I think it's harder for people to be in joy and connection and vulnerability and power because it feels so scary and unfamiliar; we just don't know what that feels like. Does that make sense? 

ACT: I started doing this thing many months ago - I started opening up for the person I'm interviewing to ask me a question. And I really wrestled with the idea just because I'm not really sure who's interested in hearing what I might have to say, but this whole thing is a way to show the world an example of how people should maybe communicate, so it's two ways. So, do you want to ask me anything? And I guess the idea for this is for whoever might read or listen to also learn something through this. 

SB: Yeah. I guess what I would be interested to hear - and this is kind of a big question - is what is your philosophy as to why we're here and what this is all about?

ACT: (Sighs) I don't know. I'm a bit of a strange bird in this regard. I was raised from birth until college in the extreme evangelical Christian church and so I was told a lot of whackadoo stuff. I went to school in that environment; I went to church in that environment; my home was supposedly that environment, but it was just full of violence and hypocrisy. And so I had all of these reasons that were just prescribed to me for what life was and what we were here for and how special each of us was and how we were made in the likeness of God and, you know, all this stuff - the dinosaurs weren't real and neither was evolution... lots of stuff that's pretty weird. I even went to a religious college - I hadn't sorted it all out yet. And then in college I left that and I chose to be someone else. So, I'm the person that I've chosen to be now. Not the person that I was raised to be in this one regard. 

So, I am definitely drawn/attracted to existentialism, existential thinking, philosophy. The philosophical problem of evil really frustrates me. I have a hard time understanding that - getting past it, I guess. So, what about it? What can we do about it? How can we beat it? I'm very much a values-based person and I also believe there's lots of grey in that - I had enough black and white for a lifetime. Relationships really matter to me. I'm very sensitive. I'm very vulnerable. And I think that's super cool about me and about other people. And I'm also just constantly disappointed 'cause I see this other thing - this older thing that you were talking about - still being worshipped and praised and valued. And I'm bored of it. But it's not so bored that it doesn't still really impact me. So, as far as what we're here for, what is the purpose of humanity, I don't really know that we have one that's any greater than what is the purpose of another animal. I'm open to the idea that there's something that comes next. You can't know it. Nobody knows it. So, I'm open to the idea. But it's not what gets me up or puts me to sleep. 

My purpose seems to be to become the best that I could possibly be. And I mean that relationally. I would like to be slower to anger. I would like to be more empathetic. I would like to do what you were just saying - choose where to put my energy. I don't always think that I'm doing that. That doesn't always seem like something that I'm active in. And I heard what you said and that will stick with me and hopefully this is one those conversations that alters my course. I don't believe that we're meant to be selfish or greedy. There's not other examples of it in the world - especially in the animal or natural world. It's all about sharing. It's all about need. It's all about survival without destruction. So, I don't know why we've chosen something different. And it frustrates me and it makes me very, very, very sad. And I think it frustrates a lot of people, but we've been put into a position where we're trapped. And so we have to - real or contrived - we have to survive at all costs. And I think unfortunately, for many, it's survive at the cost of your own values. And I'm ready for the next chapter. I'm super ready for it. Does that answer the question? 

SB: Yeah. Oh my gosh, so much. Thank you. Yeah. It does. Can I just say one thing to that? 

ACT: Yeah, let's have it. 

SB: I think that one of the hardest things for me is that I think we are in the shift - I think the shift is happening - but we're still living in these two worlds. One is the world we desire - that doesn't exist yet, but that we're starting to build. And the other is this old world of, yeah, of like having to compromise your values to survive and everything that goes along with that. And it's so disheartening. And I think what's hard for me is understanding that I am just such a tiny blip in this cycle. That this process is gonna take generations. And I'm not gonna be alive to see it. So, letting go of that, you know, being just in like, Alright, we're in the hurricane right now. It's hard to keep the hope and the faith alive. Like, Yeah, yeah, we're gonna figure this out. We're gonna figure this out. So, I can really relate to that. And I think that, for me, has just been, again, that piece of, Oh, I just have to do my part and I may never, ever understand what the results of it… I may never see that the world is getting better. And I still have to just do it. You just have to do it. 

ACT: Do you have anything else to say in closing?

SB: Well, I feel like I said a lot (laughs). But I do think that work like this is what gives me life. And seeing other people do this work is really inspiring to me. And so I do want to encourage you and appreciate you and just reflect to you that you are seen and the work that you're doing matters. And I think that my hope is that settles into your bones a little more deeply. To just trust in that and wherever it leads, it leads. I want more of this. One day these kinds of things will be the things that bring us abundance (laughs). We just have to create the structures for it first. I have a lot more that I could say about that, but I'm not gonna ramble on and on and on. But, anyway, thank you for taking the time to talk with me and hear me get all fired up about all this stuff. 

ACT: It's really cool. It was a pleasure. Thank you. 

Natalie Murphy recommended Sharon to participate here and she readily accepted the invitation. This was the absolute perfect interview for this particular day. I went into it feeling defeated but within minutes of chatting with Sharon I was completely turned around.

Tina Bollman

Leslie, who has become a very dear friend through this process, recommended Tina to participate here. We talked a lot about the project before we began recording and then picked that conversation back up about halfway through this interview. In a rare turn of events, we end up trading places as Tina starts to put me through a fairly intense line of questioning. I enjoyed our entire experience together and hope my presentation of it offers you a good representation of how it was in the moment. I'm happy to introduce Tina to you here and I hope this conversation will serve as an example and encouragement for you to go engage in one of your own. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

TB: Well, the obvious things that I am - I'm a mother and a daughter and a sister and a friend and a girlfriend and a co-worker and all those things. But I think I'm a seeker of connection and understanding.

ACT: Are you finding understanding?

TB: Sometimes. And, you know, my interests are broad, so sometimes finding understanding is easy. But I really like to understand people more than anything else - and that can be a moving target. But that's okay, too. 

ACT: We'll take the questions out of order because that's a good segue. What do you we mean to each other, individual to individual? Why do you have this desire to understand people? 

TB: We need each other. And I think that we're living in a very difficult time because we need each other and there's a huge polarity. And I think... well, I can really only speak for myself and the people close to me, but I think we all are missing the ease of being in relationship to people. Whether they're family or strangers, it's harder to talk to people now. Feels a little risky. But I think we need each other. And for me, personally, I find it to be very challenging to give up on people. And this has been a hard time for that, as well, because there are some people that I just can't be in relationship with anymore.  

ACT: That could probably be your answer to this question, too, but I'm sure you'll have more to say. What concerns you? It's really easy for people to say these bigger... hunger, racism, sex-trafficking - but what impacts your experience? What gives you a hard time? What breaks your heart? 

TB: Loneliness. For myself and for a lot of people in the world. I work in the medical field and it's an everyday conversation - the higher numbers of suicide. We come and go from our garages in our cars. We are distracted with our devices or somebody else's device or a TV or a phone and we just don't interact the way we used to. And I think there are a lot of people suffering with loneliness. And that's a hard one to fix. But if you don't give up on people, then, I mean, I think that's a little bit of what I'm doing every day in the work that I do - is trying to connect with people. And not only because in the jobs that I do I am in service to others, essentially, but because I have suffered through a lot of loneliness myself and I think I recognize it. But we live in an interesting culture right now. And I'm circling back to that earlier question where we're almost, I think, sizing one another up. Or at least I feel that way sometimes, like, Who are you and is it safe to say these things to you? - these things that I'm thinking. 

ACT: What does community mean to you? What does it look like to you without this loneliness? And then, what is there to do about not just the smaller differences of opinion, but on the grander scale, these things that actually really do matter? These huge differences that do cause all the polarity - what are we to do with it?

TB: I think it requires courage. And that might seem like kind of an overly simplistic answer, but I think that these times do call for courage. I think it's a better policy to reach out to people versus out of fear and concern, walk away - walk away again. I think it's okay to ask people if they're okay. I think staying in the conversation and not giving up is really relevant. And, again, we're distracted. 

As an example, I remember I used to love to travel and be in airports because I would always meet someone interesting. And that just doesn't happen anymore - at all. Everybody is on a laptop or they're wearing earbuds or they're on their phone if they're solo. And I'm guilty of that as well. But, you know, I have tried to develop some mindful practices and be aware of if I'm being present or not.

And I think we're tired, too. I think we're tired just from the last two/three years of the assault in politics. Whether you're thrilled at what's happening in the leadership of our country or not, it's been an exhausting time in history. Sometimes you just need a break from all the thinking and worrying. So, I try to carve out time for that. But it's easy to feel like you are by yourself, worried about the future of the world. 

And so, in a broader sense of community, I think that when people can come together to try to find solutions for the things we're worried about that it's a great start. 

ACT: In the interview that I did yesterday, Carlos was talking about when people say, "I don't mean to be rude..." and he's like, "Don't. Then don't be rude. But you can still have compassion." You can still care. You can have that difference of opinion, but you can still care about somebody else. 

TB: Right. Are you familiar with the term trauma-informed care? So, I've been thinking a lot about that. The concept can be distilled down to in communication or in relationship with another person, instead of asking yourself What's wrong with that person?, you flip it just enough and you say to yourself, What happened to that person? It's an interesting approach to ground you in compassion. Even if you're on Highway 97, commuting between Bend and Redmond and someone's on your bumper. It seems not only appropriate, but it makes me feel like a better person when I can flip it and see that that's a human being back there. That's a human being standing out there. That's a human being sitting right next to me. And I just feel better when I can remember to focus on that aspect - What happened to that person? And how would it feel to be treated like that? You know, that's groundbreaking. 

ACT: Do you have a method for using that without having the superiority that could easily come along with it? 

TB: Oh! I thought you were gonna ask me if I remembered to do it (laughs)! That depends on a lot of things. Yeah, you know, that's a really good question because I have struggled with that a little bit. Does it make me more superior to look at someone and ask myself, What happened to them? And I think there's a little tinge of that. But on the other hand, I'm a broken person, too. And I have a lot of examples of being treated in a way that made me feel like I wasn't assessed as being a human. And I certainly wasn't being seen. 

ACT: I guess the superiority aspect of that is a lot softer than "What's wrong with them?" anyways (laughs). 

TB: Yeah. Right. What's wrong with you?! 

ACT: This is a combo question - there's a few different things I want to get out. Do you feel a sense of purpose? Those three words have this meaning to so many people. But I can rephrase it as a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change. Does any of that resonate with you? 

TB: I often experience both of those feelings. I occasionally feel like I'm living with purpose. And I know when I'm in that zone, for lack of a better term, I wish that my days felt more purpose-driven. And a responsibility for that, absolutely. Here's another cliché - you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. But I do... here we are talking about community and purpose and I recently have thought that I'd like to be more involved in the community. I'm not sure where I'd fit that in. But I would like to have a project where I'm shoulder to shoulder with like-minded people and we're saving something (laughs), for example. And there are a lot of things I feel strongly about. And I like to think that I'm not alone in complaining that my life is super busy. And making ends meet is an everyday project for me. And getting myself overextended is another one. So, in fact, I just had a conversation with someone earlier this week on this idea of wanting to be involved in something community-related. And I think it is important and hopefully something will come along for me, but right now I struggle a little with feeling like what I do matters. 

ACT: This is a rabbit hole. I like those. So, when you said "standing shoulder to shoulder solving some problem" the thing that just popped into my head was the whales - you're working for Greenpeace, for example. So, that needs to become a priority. Or, for some, it's waste disposal or plastics and litter and this sort of thing. Or domestic abuse. Or racism. Sex-trafficking. There's a lot of things we could pick, right? 

And then, to use another one of your words, you find these people who have this "like-minded" concern. So you can have the like-minded concerns or the like-minded joys, right, for your fitness and health and biking and yoga - whatever it may be - shooting at the range. And this question very rarely goes this far, which I'm always a little frustrated about, so I'm just gonna push it there today. A sense of purpose, a compulsion to be a certain way, or a responsibility to affect positive change - in my mind those things all have to do... there's, of course, an existential component, which we don't need to go down, but there is a selfishness behind all of these actions that I think most or many people would view as the wrong actions. "You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem." The problem is often that one person thinks they're better than the other. But we don't really have an anti-selfishness movement. We have a "protect the whales" and a "garbage" and a "litter" and a "domestic violence" and a "sex-trafficking", but underneath it all is this same thing. And I think as long as we keep working on all of these things - I think it's a biblical* interpretation of it - but the branches... as long as we keep working on the branches, the root is still growing. 

And I just don't know what to do about it. In some way A Community Thread is an attempt for me to work at it way down at the base, but the disconnect that comes from just two people that actually do give a damn. One of them gives a damn about one thing and one of them gives a damn about another and they're still disconnected. 

*It is not biblical, but rather a quote by Henry David Thoreau from Walden, "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." 

TB: Well, I just had this lightbulb turn on over my head while you were describing that to me and I think that there's also this fear of being adversarial because you're in support of something that someone is not. I was pretty active in a local political campaign recently - in support of someone here locally and even that felt weird. Even putting a sign in my front yard. And I hope that's not... I'll have to think more about this, but I hope that I'm not doing that. I hope I'm not avoiding becoming involved in something that matters to me because I don't have the energy to be an adversary. But I will be thinking about that. 

ACT: Great. Do you want to ask me anything?

TB: Ummm. Yeah, I do. I want to ask you about this project, obviously - do you ever have interviews that you're unhappy with. 

ACT: Yeah. I don't know if it's my nature or my nurture, I don't know if it's the rut that I fall into or if it's a path that I'm trying to blaze - it's hard to know where these feelings come from and if they're bad or good or survivalist. It's so difficult to know. But, yeah, I do. I have interviews with people where.... it goes so many different ways. It can be so lovely. A huge percentage of them end in a hug and this thought that we'll be connected again in the future and we really meant something to each other today, which means that we mean something to each other on a permanent level. That's most often the way it feels. It doesn't always go like that. I've been doing this long enough to know that sometimes... I don't know what that is then. I don't know if that's just a high - a momentary high - or a well-intentioned, but very difficult thing to follow up on. 

And then sometimes... I don't know... I get in my car and I'm just not really sure what was meant to have happened and if I could have asked different questions or if someone is being idealistic with me or if someone's being genuine or is one of those things better than the other? Some of it, too, is just like "What do I do with it?" It's a responsibility. And if I come here and we have this interview and I do a thing and it sits on the internet and four people listen to it, is that enough? And is that because of something I did wrong? Or should I celebrate the four people? I don't know. There's a lot to consider in all of it. And I do that a lot. I consider that a lot. 

TB: So what keeps you feeling engaged in this project then? I mean, you do quite a few of these interviews. How many do you do a month, roughly?

ACT: Roughly four. It turns out to be roughly one a week. 

TB: So, then what makes you keep that feeling of inspiration? What's underneath that for you - the drive? 

ACT: Obsession, I guess. A compulsion, maybe an obsessive compulsion (laughs) or... 

TB: Over doing what you said you were gonna do and continuing to roll these out? 

ACT: (Sighs) We really switched places here, huh? I use this word extremely rarely, a belief that it's important. Belief being the word I use rarely. And a word I use even less frequently, a hope that it has potential. And then, the only thing standing in the way is time and persistence. But I don't... real talk... I don't have any reason to think that stuff. There's not a lot of allies in this. There's not a team of support. So then, it's like against all odds - doing this and doing this and doing this and doing this because I "hope" that this will be the interview or I "hope" that that will be the interview. So, yeah, it's just kind of an unknown. It's habit, too. It gives me a place. I feel a place - a sense of purpose - from this. And then the bare bones truth of the matter is it feels good to come into a stranger's home and sit and talk with them. And link them up to some equipment and produce some thing out of it. 

TB: Yeah. That makes sense to me. I believe that everything we do is about relationships. And I think we are starving for deeper relationships. So, I think, perhaps this is your way to seek that out. 

ACT: I have to believe - or assume - that we are better than we look (laughs) out in the world. We do so many ridiculous, foolish, and selfish things. And that really annoys the shit out of me. And I'm sure I have my list. But there's also so much good in us. I really do think you could take the two most different people in the world with the most different personalities and different habits and different proclamations and they would find... you can choose to highlight your differences. It's definitely the easier road. It's well-paved. There's an EZ Pass for that and you zip right through it. But it's also very boring. There's very little scenery along the way. And it's an effort - it takes effort - sometimes to find the things that you have in common and to connect with people and to maintain somebody's humanity.

TB: So, is that what you're hoping when I listen to someone else's interview that you've done? That I will have a connection to that person? That I will recognize common ground? Similar thinking? 

ACT: Yeah. Not only that - I hope that you'll have a connection with that person in particular and I also hope that you will then assume that you can have that connection with whoever is outside your door, whoever is at the grocery store, or the library, or your fitness class. 

TB: I love that. 

ACT: Maybe you should start a podcast - you're good at this (laughs). 

TB: Maybe I should (laughs). 

ACT: Would you like to say anything in closing? 

TB: You know there is something. I'm gonna go out there on a limb right now. There's something that I think about a lot. And sitting here with you, a total stranger up until an hour ago, and to be having such a forthright, honest conversation with a man is a rare experience for me. I have a son. I have wonderful men in my life. I was raised by one. And I think this is an especially hard time - I imagine it's a very hard time - to be a man in this world right now. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that. 

ACT: (Laughs) Lots of room to get in trouble here. 

TB: I have asked a few men this question and there's usually an awkward silence. 

ACT: I struggle with the assumptions about me because of my outward appearance. And that's not to say someone else doesn't experience that in different ways, right. It's not like "Who could possibly understand that?" So many people have that to say. And it's interesting that there's been a turn that now I am a person that can say something like that. I sit in different spaces. And sometimes I am the... in one particular space in my life - another project I'm working on - I am the lone white male in the room. And it has an impact on the way I present myself and how often I speak up and whether or not the room thinks I have much to offer. You know, 'cause my time has passed and our time is due and we've had power for too long and this sort of thing. 

I'm interested in a few things. I'm really puzzled with racism; that's something that really bothers me and it's something I have a really difficult time understanding at all. I'm also not the right person for dealing with it. That bothers me. I don't know. 

TB: Do you feel concern about.... or do you feel confidence - let's just flip it a little bit again - do you feel confidence about how to operate in the world as a man now that has been consistent for you and static? Or have you felt a certain pressure to reconsider how you behave as a man? 

ACT: I don't think that I have many overt behaviors... I don't feel like I'm sitting in Joe Biden's seat, for example at the moment - where I've been this kind of touchy-feely, strangely was-that-inappropriate type of person. I don't think that I need to reprogram based on being made aware of a bunch of bad habits. 

And I don't know how much of it has to do with being a man, but a lot of this has to do with being a person that's creating A Community Thread. I have a temper, which I come by very honestly. And it's something that I wish to put aside or wrestle down or beat or obliterate - however you want to... But it's the same thing that is my fire. You can't get rid of something like that because it's also my passion. So, the person that's on my ass in traffic really annoys me. Sometimes it's easy to think, "What's about to happen to them?" if I slam on my brakes instead of, "What has happened to them?" So, there's lots of things to practice on in that.

I try to listen. I have a deeply patient, caring, and loving partner who allows - and I don't even know if she knows she does it - but she allows me to realize my own bullshit. I've never had someone do that for me. 

TB: Would you be able to give me an example?

ACT: Yeah. This is just a basic example. If we're in the car together and I get cut off, she allows my 20 seconds of ranting and sits there quietly while I hear all the things I'm saying and compare them to the actions that I am doing while I am driving. And she doesn't give me shit about it, but knows... I thinks she knows... that I do all sorts of dumb, silly things. And that has a lot more effect on me than if someone's in the other seat yelling at me, right, griping at me, and telling me how foolish I am. So, I try to listen. And I have a lot to say about everything. I'm an extremely opinionated person. I celebrate privately my intellectual prowess, right, so I have a lot of thoughts on a lot of things and I'm the expert in all ways (laughs). 

TB: Well, it's also interesting that you put yourself in a position to be a listener - for a person with strong opinions. 

ACT: So, you know, how much of this is about being a man and how much of it is about me? I also don't know that. And then how much of this that I'm not aware of is that privilege because I've not known something different? 

TB: Right. It's not just being a man; it's like you already pointed out - you're a white male. 

ACT: Yeah. I don't know. I think it's good stuff to think about. I also think it's good stuff to think about in every context for everyone because put gender or race or cultural stuff behind or beside you and just consider you and the person you're with - you and the people you're with - how can we all get better? How can we all move forward? How can we better communicate? Better understand? It's never gonna be, "All agree." That also sounds very boring, right, but consider other perspectives. Or even just that pause. 

TB: Well, they refer to that as... well, it's holy. If you can find a way to pause, that's a holy moment right there. For all the reasons you just cited. And when we think about crossing paths with someone who has a different belief system, creating that space to witness who they are without judgment. That is powerful. 

ACT: Is that the stopping point?

TB: Okay. 

Leslie, who has become a very dear friend through this process, recommended Tina to participate here. We talked a lot about the project before we began recording and then picked that conversation back up about halfway through this interview.

Carlos Salcedo

I met Carlos at a Black History Month event I attended at COCC at which Marcus was doing some readings. While there, I ran into Carol Delmonico and both she and Marcus pointed to Carlos as someone who should participate here. Carol introduced us and we chatted briefly. Then we exchanged a few emails over the next month or so. Carlos was not sold on the idea originally, but he eventually decided to participate. And then when we met for the interview, he expressed his hesitance in more detail. In the end, I gave Carlos the opportunity to forego this process, but after more deliberation, he decided to go through with it. He talks a bit about his internal struggle with the idea in our conversation and makes a valid point. It was a pleasure chatting with Carlos and it's a pleasure to introduce you to him here. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

CS: My name is Carlos Salcedo and that's a tough question. How do you describe yourself? I think I'm just a person who lives in Bend, Oregon. 

ACT: So, we'll just dive right in because I think this next question sets the tone. What concerns you? And what is it that breaks your heart or makes you sad or deeply affects the way that you personally interact in the world - that affects the way you live your life? Maybe, what is it that holds you back or what is it that holds society back? And then, what motivates you to do something about it?

CS: What concerns me is the thought of, What if I'm wrong? And kind of the mundane stuff - us kind of going through what we're living and not really being genuine with ourselves. That is concerning. What motivates me is the same thing. You know, to find out, What if I am wrong and there's a different way to do this? So, I think the answer for both of those questions is the same for me. 

ACT: What if you're wrong about what? 

CS: About the way we engage with people. The things we strive for. What we hear and what we get told and how we perceive it. Like, it seems like we chase money a lot. And is that really the right thing to be chasing? Or when we judge people - not we, but I'm gonna say I - when I judge somebody, what if I'm wrong? Right? Because I don't know every aspect of that person's life or that group's life or whatever. And that blind spot bothers me. It bothers me, but at the same time, it motivates me to want to know a little bit more. To find out the real path for me. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of how you might know the real path or the right path for you? 

CS: I don't. I don't know. I haven't figured it out. Maybe I won't figure it out. 'Cause if I go out there and I get hit by a bus - not that there's a lot of buses in Bend, right? - that's it. I didn't figure it out. I don't let it torment me, but I do think about it. Most of my day is kind of that, of like, when I'm gonna think of something or go into that judgment phase that we all kind of default into, I do ask myself, What if I am wrong? And at some point you have to move forward, so you just go forward with the best that you can do, but I do ponder that. When I'm driving, that's the question that's going through my head - What if I'm not correct? And what if I'm wrong and I just did something that's not for the benefit of the person? 

ACT: What do we mean to each other, person to person, out in the world?

CS: What do we mean to each other? That's a good question. I think we should mean everything to each other, but we don't. Even what I just told you about the judgment piece, like, we're constantly judging and making assumptions that we know. And we treat people that way. And even when it's unintended, we're constantly marginalizing out people... with the best intention in mind. So, what do we mean to each other? I don't know. I don't know what the we means to each other. 

For me, I just try to enjoy the people that I know and I have contact with and I try to respect the people that I don't know or have contact with. And that's kinda the extent of my exposure to that question. 

ACT: What does it mean to you to be part of a community? What does community mean to you? I don't ask that question in the geographic sense. I think it might be fair to say that there's a lot of people out there that are wondering that 'What if I'm wrong?' question. And then a lot of people live that out in different ways. So what does it mean to you to be engaging with all these different people, with all these different agendas?

CS: It means everything - I like it. I like hopefully bringing the voice of the unheard and allowing that to happen. And not that I bring it or we bring it, but hopefully providing the space for people to bring their voice and kind of moving out of the way. How do we move out of the way to let those people that don't have the great opportunity to voice their opinions to voice their opinions and talk about it? And I think that is community.

And that is something that when I'm trying to answer that question of What if I'm wrong?... if we move out of the way to allow these people who don't normally speak or have a position where they can speak to a large number of people, hopefully we can get more information from that. And we can answer that question, What if I'm wrong? 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to be a certain way or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

CS: Explain that question more, I guess. Is it just, What is my purpose?

ACT: Well, I don't know. These three words together - sense of purpose - tends to have this meaning for whoever hears it. So, I'm asking if those three words resonate with you in any way. And then what might yours be if they do. If not, do you feel compelled to live to some ethical code or a values-based system? Or do you feel responsible to affect positive change out in the world?  

CS: So, the way I kind of govern my life is I hope to be able to speak openly with my mother at any moment in time. And if I do something wrong out there in the community or if I treat people negatively or if I'm a "bad person" - whatever that bad may be- I won't be able to speak openly with her and I don't want that. So, I guess, what kind of governs my actions on a day-to-day basis is my mother. I really want to go home and be able to talk to my mother in a very open way about my daily actions and activities without having to hide something. And she wouldn't approve of me being that societal bad person and, you know, that does stick in my head. 

So, I guess my purpose is my mother's purpose that somehow she imbedded in me and us, maybe - as siblings - of hopefully trying to do the best that we can. So that when, at least for me, when I'm done with work or I'm engaging with her on the weekends and stuff like that, it's not an uncomfortable conversation with her. I can be completely open because I know I don't have anything to hide. 

ACT: Have you had the conversation with your mother on the topic of 'what if you're wrong?'? 

CS: Oh, we do it all the time. 

ACT: If your mother's your barometer, what do you come up with her? And does she say, 'Well, what if I'm wrong?'? Because then that really affects you, too. 

CS: Well, we haven't come up with the answer. But I guess that's the beauty of our relationship is that it's a conversation that doesn't end. You know? 

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything? 

CS: I think the question I asked you before we started this is 'Why are you doing this?' and that was a question before I agreed to do this and even before we agreed to turn on the mics. And then the other question was why are other people deciding to be part of this project?

ACT: I'm doing this to find a connection with other people through vulnerability and to grow connection because I believe our relationships with each are really the path forward. It's not about this collecting and consuming and money and wealth and homes and cars. I feel, mostly bad about the state of the world, so this - I can't exactly explain how everything in my life led up to this project - is a curiosity about people in a way that I'm looking for deeper connection. And then I want to model that behavior to hopefully grow that desire for other people. 

The second part of your question - Why do people participate in this? - is a question, actually, that I have a really hard time with. Because I worry that people participate in this for what I would consider the wrong reasons. And if I could be really frank, that fear or worry is fed a lot because I don't think that Bend cares a single damn about this project. And because they don't care about this project, I get the sense that they don't actually care about what's beneath this project - the foundation of this project. And that's after 125 interviews before this one. That's after a lot of hard work and a lot of hours - you know, too many for me to count - spent working on it and trying to present this in a way that the world will respond to it. And so I've held the project up to my standard over and over and over, looked at it through a microscope, and at the end of all of this introspection the only thing I'm left to do is just keep doing it. I don't know how many more tweaks might come and I can tell you there have been many throughout the course of it. 

I wish that people participated in this project because they really actually did care about each other. And not just the each others that fit into their economic status or their social status or the others that participate in their hobbies or like to vacation in the same places. But, I don't know. Something I've said in a previous interview is even if people are saying the politically correct or rote expressions that sound good, I've started to believe that even that is almost like an admission and it's like a goal. Right? People say this thing because it's actually how they want to be; it might not be how they are. And so I've started to find a little bit of peace just in that.

CS: Before we started I told you I had a conflict in doing this - because of that question. And I don't think that I am necessarily the right person to do this. I think there's other people whose voice should be here. Because a lot of the people that were on this page are the people that I hear from already out in the community. And I'm one of those people, too, right? So, I'm hypocritical. And I'm a hypocrite right now by doing this. But, at the same time, I did it exactly for that reason - to be able to kind of say this. Which is this spot deserves to be held by somebody else. By those people that don't get the opportunity to speak their mind all the time the way I have the privilege of doing and the way a lot of those on that page have the privilege of doing. And I do like your project because I think it can give that voice to some of these people who don't normally get to have that voice. And that is the voice that I'm most interested in and that is the voice that I want to step aside for. So, I hope it does work out that way. 

ACT: Me, too. You can help connect me to those people. 

CS: Yeah. For sure. 

ACT: Do you want to say anything in closing or was that it? 

CS: That's really it for me. 

I met Carlos at a Black History Month event I attended at COCC at which Marcus was doing some readings. While there, I ran into Carol Delmonico and both she and Marcus pointed to Carlos as someone who should participate here. Carol introduced us and we chatted briefly.

Natalie Murphy

Lisa recommended Natalie to this project. Natalie laughingly told me the story of their meeting.  After they ended up as next door neighbors, Natalie and her daughter used to go out of their way to walk by Lisa's house when she was out in the yard with her kids in hopes to make their acquaintance. That’s evidently a good tactic as they’ve since become dear friends. We met in Natalie's office and had a very lovely conversation. She mentioned a couple of words that tend to make me only want to ask for more clarity - contentment is one and like-mindedness is another - and I enjoyed learning from her throughout our thoughtful discussion.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

NM: I think about my roles in life. So, I think about being a mom. I think about being a wife and a sister and a daughter. And then I think about how I'm still getting to know myself as a person. So, when I think about answering that, I think, Okay, how would people describe me? And then I check in with myself on that. I've been described as nurturing and compassionate and when I check that with myself, I would agree with that. That's where I'd go right now with that. 

ACT: As I read these questions line by line, sometimes I think this next one might come across as a pretty rough transition, but I don't intend it to be. I think it just tells me more about who you are. What concerns you, what breaks your heart, what makes you sad about life and community and how we all engage in a way that affects you personally? I'm trying to get people to avoid - and not that these aren't major issues - but some of the larger social issues and talk about what, really, on their more day-to-day, affects them. So, what is that? And then, what motivates you to do something about it? 

NM: Okay. You may have to repeat that second question. When I think about day-to-day and I think about when my heart may become involved in my thought process, simple things like watching kids struggle on the playground or one kid being unkind to another - as simple as that, I'll be affected. And then, if we were to look at that in larger scale, it's basically any time there's a divide. Or, I guess when I look at it in my day-to-day with work, when I witness stigmatization. And in my work it would be stigmatization over somebody's body size. And then I wonder sometimes if the reason why that affects me is if it's traced al the way back to things that impacted me throughout my life and my childhood and my early adult years and why - you know, I look at the reasons why that happens or why I become so affected. 

But I think it motivates the work that I do in seeking connection with others. And I guess one of the things that motivates me is putting people at ease - being able to bring that to others. And so, there may be a connection. If I see two people struggling or a lack of kindness, I tend to be somebody that's nurturing, so I want to bring forth that feeling of peace and ease within the body - for myself and for others. So, I think that motivates the person that I am and the work that I do - is wanting people to feel content, just the way they are. And so, when I see a divide happening when somebody's perceiving themself as different from somebody else or an us and them taking place, it's really unsettling for me. And I think my heart gets pulled into it. 

ACT: The last person that I interviewed - just a few days ago - asked me about contentment and I have what seems to be a pretty unpopular view on contentment. So, can you tell me what you mean by contentment?

NM: If I were to think about my view, a lot of it involves acceptance. I guess accepting things as they are. And so if we go back to that situation we were talking about with divide, there's some lack of acceptance going on. And I guess that's how I feel like it weaves in with contentment. I've found with my own day-to-day life and my own personal existence and living in this body here, I'm able to experience more contentment when I'm not trying to change something, I guess, to avoid suffering. When I'm able to just be with what's happening, then I'm able to be more content because there's not a struggle going on or a fighting against something. 

ACT: What do you think people mean to you and you mean to people as you go about your life? 

NM: That's a tough question (laughs). I think that at times we can be reflections... or I find that others are a reflection of myself. So, I may see something in somebody when it's really just a part of myself that I'm witnessing. That's the simplest way for me to come to terms with that question. 

What somebody means to me, though? I guess that depends day-to-day. It depends... this may not be the direction that I would expect to go with this, but how I may view somebody else or how somebody may view me, I think largely depends on how I'm caring for myself. If I'm getting my self-care needs met and I'm able to be rested and show up whole, then my view of what somebody means to me can be different. And if I'm showing up and I'm not whole myself or I'm showing up and I am whole, then the way others look to me and what they mean to me and what I may mean to them may be different. That doesn't seem very grandiose to me (laughs). 

ACT: Going out from there - this individual to individual aspect - what does community, then, mean to you? And what does it mean to you to be part of a community - let's say the community of humanity - with all these different opinions, agendas, outlooks? 

NM: I think historically I've been drawn to finding a community or being a part of a community that I feel like I'm with like-minded individuals. I may find myself in those communities. And I think about before becoming a parent, I identified with a running community or a cycling community  and everybody has a similar view or they're doing something for a similar purpose. And then through parenting, finding myself in different communities. Or I may pick different communities that I feel like I'm surrounded by people that see things in a similar way. Different playgroups or right now I'm involved with a mother/daughter group and supporting my child and supporting me through that process of parenting. 

More in my adult life, I'm able to be more brave and be more vulnerable and immerse in communities where I might not see things eye to eye with everybody. And, in those situations, I guess, trying to look for ways that I may connect with others. I need more help here (laughs)... 

ACT: Just to use one of the examples that you mentioned - let's take the running community, for example. I'm not a runner; I despise every aspect of it. But when I look out at runners, I can imagine that there's a group of people - let's say there's 12 people - you share a common interest in running, but you may not share much else. But that may not be important because you share this interest in running. But, in society, it seems to me, we get in these situations often where the common point is the last thing we're concerned with. It's the difference. It could be a difference of politics; it could be a difference of income; it could be a difference of awareness; it could be a difference of gender identity; of skin color; of size; body type. Why do you suppose it is - now we're getting into a pretty loaded question - that some things we're willing to overlook because of this camaraderie or like-mindedness and others we have absolutely no room for whatsoever? 

NM: This is totally personal opinion, but I look at it and I feel like it comes back to that part of the differences that we notice are things about ourselves that are being reflected back and it hooks us. And then we get stuck there. When you were describing the running group, I jumped to thinking that my sense of community with that ended when I was no longer able to run. And so, I wasn't able to necessarily connect on other levels. And so, I guess, that's where in my adult life - or my later adult life - able to be more brave and be able to say you can be a part of a community even if you don't see eye to eye with people on everything. This has been one of my personal journeys, which kind of started with having it happen in my marriage - where differences were dividing us. We were still connected because being married, but we were able to see more of the differences when we were in certain times - struggling times and rough times - individually. Our differences seemed to be so much more poignant. And when we're able to see that we don't have to agree on things all the time. Or we may never agree on certain things, but we can disagree in a way where we can coexist and still love each other and be connected. And so, I guess, that experience in my married life... I've been looking for ways to have that happen in my day to day life. It's like, I don't have to see eye to eye with the person to be connected with them. And be okay with people different from me and my view. 

ACT: Do you have or feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

NM: When you ask that question I get kinda giddy (laughs). That's such a beautiful question. I feel like all of those elements are things that are really fueling the work that I'm doing right now. And I feel like almost as if certain things have lied dormant within me and in the past year, being a part of a new practice in my work life, all of those questions have been asked of me by the person that I work with. And just by asking those questions sometimes, in my life, has brought me to the greater good and wanting to self-reflect and say, What is my purpose? and How do I want to show up each day? So maybe that's why I get giddy when you (laughs) do that. 

I think, in this past year, I've been able to come to fruition and be comfortable with what parts of people I want to support. I have the desire to be able to bring tools and, I guess, perspective to people no matter what body that they're living in that they can lead full lives and be accepting of what they are, who they are, right here as they are in this moment, without having to change. And when that change happens, then they can start living their life. And so I guess that's one of the things right now - just being able to help individuals access contentment from the seat they're in right now would be something that I feel like is purpose - and my purpose - and bringing more ease to people no matter what they're experiencing, not matter what they're trauma background is, no matter what kind of day they're having. In this moment, how can we feel ease in our body? Or, I guess, be at peace with it. It might not feel easy or comfortable, but being okay with that. Being okay with not being okay, I think, is one way of saying it. 

ACT: Do you spend time thinking about or energy on wondering about people putting quite a lot of energy, time, and resources into things that are pretty negative as a purpose - accumulation of personal wealth or self-advancement at all cost?

NM: Yeah. I think, in some sense, the folks that I work with day to day - a lot of them may be putting a lot of focus on external orientation. So, how they are viewed by others and, unfortunately, in the society that we're in, there can often just be one definition of an ideal - of how somebody should be living their life or how they may look. And, I guess, very specific to my work, it's the thin privilege and the cost that people may go through to modify their bodies to meet our society's view of what we should be is what I see a big part of my day. And what somebody will go through to meet that that isn't in line with their values. When you sit down and look at what their values are, the actions that they're doing and what they're putting their body through doesn't match their values. So, there's a discrepancy there and so that may be what I work with. 

(Laughs) It's hard to stay on track with the questions... there can be such an intermingling. 

ACT: Do you have anything that'd you like to ask me? We'll trade places for a minute. 

NM: Yeah, so, we talked a little bit about this, but I was curious how many people you've interviewed on this project. So, that's one question. And then another question is what impact has this project had on you and how you relate with people in the world? 

ACT: This is, I'm fairly certain - I just did another count - interview 125. 

NM: Okay. That's a lot of people. 

ACT: It's a lot of people, yeah. I did a project many years ago where I interviewed someone every single day and I did it for a year and a half, so I did it for less time but more people. And this one is much more in depth. But, for some reason, I have a hard time keeping them separate and so I'm wondering if I'll make it to 625 interviews with A Community Thread. And I wonder if I'll feel much different if do than I do now. And how I feel about this project changes pretty frequently. How did you word the second part of the question? 

NM: The other one is how you've been impacted by this work. And with relating with so many people, how has that affected you?

ACT: So, that's ongoing, of course. (Sighs) I hold myself and others to a pretty high, rigorous standard. And that's the person in line at the coffee shop or sitting in traffic or a business partner or a photo client - I kind of hold everybody to this basic, human decency level. And I tend to think that's known - I tend to think this standard is generally accepted and is a given and people are choosing not to act to it. Which, over time and the amount of disappointment I've gone through, I guess is just not the case. But I seem to be a slow learner in that realm, but I'm also not entirely sure that's a bad thing. I'd rather, I guess, continue to be disappointed than to begin jaded - to approach it as if people aren't gonna live up to it versus to approach it as if they are and then be disappointed. But that carries through to me, too. And so, on one hand, I sit here and do these interviews and try to build this thread or web - grow community in the sense that we mean something to each other- and on the other hand, I find myself kind of slipping up daily, too. And then I feel a great sense of accountability because of this project and because of this role that I've put myself in. 

I started the project out of curiosity, but also a necessity to find good and grow good, perpetuate good, and show that to others because I'm getting quite worn out with the bad. And I just know what I'm capable of and there's a fair amount of bad in that. And it's kind of just this quest to figure out what that is. I don't know that I'll ever sit down with the one person who enlightens me and answers all of these questions that I have, but I might ask enough of enough people that I start to get some more clarity. And as much as I struggle with the word contentment, I think I'm probably seeking it in some way. I often place contentment and complacency as very near partners, so I don't know that I'm seeking contentment in a way that I'm just wanting to be at ease. But I wouldn't mind experiencing some peace every once in a while. So, if that's contentment then I think I'm seeking it. And I might be seeking it through this, as well. 

I'm learning quite a lot. And I think sometimes the things I'm learning become apparent much later. Who knows, it might be months or years or decades from now or in another life. But I can't be doing this and not taking in something. 

NM: I hear you talk about the impact that this work has on you and I hear you share that you have mess-ups and I think to myself, Nobody is immune to mess-ups. And sometimes that can be a perception thing, too. Right? Like, what's deemed as a mess-up? And also that piece of contentment where everything doesn't necessarily have to be in order or the way we imagined or meeting some ideal in order for contentment to take place. It can be in this moment or it can be in a really adverse situation or a really painful situation or a really difficult situation. That's what I mean about contentment. No matter what is happening that you can experience that sensation in the body of, This is right where I need to be. And not having a fight to be somewhere else or experiencing something else. You said something about complacency and I'm like, Hmmm. I can see where that would have a crossover, too. 

ACT: This doesn't tie in, but I really want to mention it, so I guess I'm just going to do it. 

NM: Do it. 

ACT: Sometimes when people get referred to the project, their response is that they're not worthy - that they haven't done enough in their life or they don't have something to offer. And I can answer that pretty easily. But the other day I was listening to this piece - and it's probably something I've heard in the past - about raccoons. So, when raccoons are out in their troop - or whatever a group of raccoons is called - they leave a lookout behind and then there are the raiders. But whatever the raiders collect, they always save the first bit or the best bit for the lookout. 

And I don't know why today - you didn't mention raccoons and this hasn't been part of our thread - but it's been coming up since you started talking. I, through this project, am constantly reminded of how much we all matter and how little sometimes we take care of one another. You know? And I try really hard, actively, to take care of the people in my life. And I think this exercise of being the interviewer holds me accountable to a standard of trying to keep my own shit together in a way that's kind to others. So, yeah, I don't know if that was for me or you or somebody else that might listen to this, but I just think we need to be better to one another all the time. 

NM: Yeah. And I'm thinking about just what happens when you do show up as a human and that you actually put yourself in a vulnerable state, then... well, I guess this is my experience, when I'm working with somebody and I put myself out there in a vulnerable state, in that moment we're able to connect. And there's some sense of we're more like each other than not like each other. And in the work that I do and in my day to day life, I see that as the healing and that it doesn't have to look comfortable or lovely. Yeah, I'm thinking about that with conversations with my husband and not trying to avoid the discomfort or not trying to avoid the argument. It's like, well, the repair is where the healing is happening. And it's not always lovely or polished on the outside. It's rough and winds and weaves. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing?

NM: I feel really grateful to be able to have been invited to be a part of this. I don't have anything monumental except that. Just feeling excitement and gratitude in closing. 

ACT: Gratitude's a good place to stop. 

Lisa recommended Natalie to this project. Natalie laughingly told me the story of their meeting. After they ended up as next door neighbors, Natalie and her daughter used to go out of their way to walk by Lisa's house when she was out in the yard with her kids in hopes to make their acquaintance.

Ryan Re

Tiffani mentioned Ryan in our interview as they work together in the ecstatic dance and Lucid realm and then she immediately referred him to participate here. I met Ryan at his home and he greeted me with a beautiful array of snacks and dandelion tea and we sat together in a room in his house that has come to be called Temple iZ. Ryan and I clicked right away conversationally and ended up chatting for quite a long time before recording. Eventually, Ryan asked if we were recording and when he found out we weren't, he suggested we start. I am torn on this issue as I often wish the pre-interview conversation was sharable, but I fear that turning on the recorder sooner would then change the tone, rendering that more intimate conversation stale. At any rate, we turned the recorder on shortly after and continued our lovely chat. There were quite a few people outside of Ryan's house when we finished our interview and I got swept up into a few different conversations, which seemed like an appropriate way to transition into the rest of my day. I hope you enjoy getting to know Ryan as much as I did. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

RR: My name is Ryan Re and I would describe myself as a being focusing on the journey of self-enlightenment as the primary focus of existence. And on that journey, I feel like my little bend on it is to celebrate - to have that enlightening experience come to pass through celebration with others, particularly.

ACT: As you go down your path and interact out there, what concerns you? What breaks your heart, makes you sad, in a way that really affects you. I know there's some global concerns that we all tend to use to answer this question, but I'm asking what really affects you. And then, what motivates you to do something about it?

RR: Yeah, interesting - I've not ever been the kind of person that feels like they care that much about other people's sort of plights. I do remember being like five years old and seeing on the television those - it was in the '80s and they had those classical campaigns for starving kids in Africa and there'd be the kids that had the flies crawling over their eyeball while their bellies are distended - and I remember crying. Those are some of my first memories of crying and feeling like, Wow, something's wrong here and I should do something about that. And I think that that was a real strong impetus towards me exploring what can I do about that.

And I feel that I've led a pretty selfish life in a way that I don't feel that it was detrimental to other people - the kind of selfishness I had. I think somewhere I identified there has to be this self-work in order for anyone else around me to gain benefit. So I've got to be the healthiest expression of myself in order to be able to give anything to anyone else. And so I feel like that's the way I've been approaching life. 

So, when I think about what's wrong with the world is I feel like I'm someone who's much more inclined to be impressed by people who are like, What's wrong with me? And so there's so many things that are wrong with me. But the things I think about is, What are my daily habits? What are the things I do every single day that take me away from absolute health? But there are these things that if I over-indulge in 'em... they all have their balance and they can all be just fine in the right balance, but anytime they strike that level where I'm actually losing daily energy and losing the zest and appeal to be alive and go out and explore and be present... any of the times that it gets to that level of out of balance, then I, at some point, will catch myself and have to engage some level of self-discipline to kind of get back on track.

So, when I'm looking at what's wrong with the world, I feel like I'm just starting with, How can I be a healthier being? How can I identify these things in my day that make me less of an ultimate person and make me kind of more of a weaker entity? And then what I discover is that when I like myself and I'm living in this way where I would be... I had mentioned earlier, before on record, sometimes I take this satellite view of myself and I look down, I'm like, Okay, if I'm focusing in on Ryan, would I be impressed with the way he walks through his day? When no one else is looking, when Ryan just has the house to himself, what does he do? And would that impress me? And I kind of try to set my life up so that I'm migrating in the direction of like, I'll be really impressed by the person I can be. And what I find out is that when I'm in pretty good balance - and certainly have never felt like I've achieved total, absolute balance, but that might be more distracting than just being in touch with balance - what I found, though, is that when I take care of myself and I like who I am, I suddenly become really nice to other people. And I'll extend myself toward like, Mom, can I give you a massage? My sister, can I hug you? And I feel like that right there translates to the greatest thing I can do for the planet socially or environmentally. When I'm in love with myself, then that love like radiates off and extends to sort of the rest of beingness. I do sometimes question if I should go ahead and make a little more disciplined effort to maybe work at a soup kitchen and things like that. And there's probably a good balance to be found with that, too. But, yeah, that'd be my answer to that question is I pretty much start with myself as the problem and also just self-love seems to kind of heal everything around me. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other - individual to individual - out in the world?

RR: You know, when I feel like I'm at my highest self, I feel like all I need to do is just be present and then if the other person and I have something to express with each other, it will sprout. Like, if I come into contact with you and you don't have the sense that I'm here to try to hear you or find out what's wrong with you or give you advice on what you could be doing better and I don't feel that reflected back from you, then I feel like we come into contact and like either the power of our connection gives like a bolt of inspiration that we need to pass or we just silently move away from each other 'cause there wasn't something necessary for us to do with each other. And so, what do we mean individual to individual? I'm thinking... I have this sense that there's a unity quality, but also a recognition of each other's intrinsic value as individuals. Like, you getting to geek out on you is beautiful. And I don't even have to recognize it or acknowledge it in order for it to have value. 

ACT: Kind of growing that individual to individual relationship, what does community mean to you and what does it mean to be a part of it with all these different agendas, and itineraries, and values and some of those things being in conflict? What do you do with some of the chaos or abrasiveness within community? 

RR: That's a cool question 'cause I feel like I go through these eras when I really want to be involved in community and I've sometimes even been identified as a community leader because I'll host a lot of events or I'll do things that bring people together and then people will have these very big sort of expressions of themselves where they feel very much accepted for who they are or they feel ignited by being around a bunch of people they didn't know before. Or they just develop friendship, which is probably the greatest thing. And so, I'll go through these eras when I really want to help create those containers where people expand.

And then I'll go through these eras when I don't feel like I want to do anything with other people and I don't want to be part of organizing things for other people to be a part of. And I can sometimes... I've had to learn what am I going to do during those eras. Am I gonna feel bad about myself? Because one thing is the community around me that's sort of gotten accustomed to me being a pillar and someone who's a big part of supporting these events happening and these things they're feeling. What am I gonna do during these eras other than just feel bad about myself or self-judgment about like why am I going through an internal phase? And one of the things I've found is really effective is during the eras when I'm feeling like being a community-building presence, instead of it all being about me - rather than me being the central pillar - right away, I need to take steps towards empowering as many other people who are at that time going through their own expansion of, I want to be around people. I want to make friends. I want to do events. I want to do stuff with other people. Getting those people empowered to start leading themselves so that when I suddenly go back into like, I just want to be by myself, there's five, ten other people in the group who are ready to step in and have the potluck at their house - organize the Friday night event themselves - and soon the community has multiple pillars.

And then, as far as conflict within that goes... that's a good piece of it 'cause there certainly is personal conflicts that arise and I've definitely been a part of many of them. And I've definitely many times approached it from not the best path. Where, like ,coming out the other side it just seemed like people lost friends was the vibration. If I take the latest case that's on my mind - and I won't use names - I think what I saw about myself is there's just an immature tendency in me to want to be right and there's a righteousness that came out in this last sort of disagreement where me and one other person didn't get along on a certain issue and the communication about it was immature on my side where I wanted to show that other person that the way I thought was the correct way. And the result was a kind of disagreement where that person and I just don't really hang out anymore. And so, I feel like what I could have done better is just really more listen to them - hear what they were dissatisfied with, what challenged them - and then just really accept that. 

And so, this sort of nonviolent communication practice that I feel pretty weak in seems like a right way. There's a gigantic lack of great communication in our society. I don't know if we need more sort of training in debate so we know the difference between argument and conversation, but it seems like a lot of us lack the skills to disagree peacefully and just be interested in like, What? Oh, you think differently than me. Let me learn from you. Instead, I feel like there's much more of a tendency - and also within myself - to be like, You don't think like me? What's wrong with you? I guess a community that also is entrenched in friendship hopefully is going through the process of learning communication skills. Sometimes what seems like five-year-olds should have been taught adults are having to deal with, but it is the case and I guess it is something that has to be gone through. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live up to a value system? Or a responsibility to affect positive change?

RR: I do experience that within myself - really connected to that earlier question of What would I change in the world? What do I see wrong with it? I just start with myself again. I'm definitely my own worst critic. Basically, I do feel the most important thing is to be fully present. The total cliché - Be here now. Great cliché - I'm glad it's entered the realm of being mundane. I really do feel like when I check in and I'm like, What's the most valuable thing? It's like, How am I gonna celebrate today? How am I gonna have the feeling that all day long I'm doing what I want and at the right pace for me? That there's no hurry; there's no stress. Just being myself is the right thing to be. I feel like that's what I want to be when I'm old. Like, when I project myself as a 70-year-old man and I have my beard and it's time to walk downtown for whatever reason, I imagine I've gotten up in the morning; I've moved at a pace that feels exactly right for what I want to accomplish and do to keep myself healthy; and then I'm just moving throughout life - every moment. 

Someone recently said, What's the great teaching of a Buddha? Of a person that is living at that absolute stillness of peace and comfort and trust. First off, how did they attain that? How are they maintaining that? And what's their message to somebody else as advice? This person was saying it's not, Always be in love. Always feel compassion. Always do the right thing. The message was, Discernment. That life at every moment has choices. There's always a choice in this life to go this way or that way, to do this thing or that thing, to put this thing in my body or not put this thing in my body. So, there's just choice at every single moment. And then, what's the most powerful thing to recognize or to build skill in is discernment. And so I'm thinking as myself, I project myself in the future, just really skillful at choosing. And that's what I... I keep forgetting what your question was (laughs). 

ACT: To what end, though? Why do you want to find that equilibrium? What does it have to do with somebody else? 

RR: I almost feel like the why is almost like this little bump in the road that wants to trip me - that's not important on the walk. The walking itself is what's important. And the Why am I walking? is just the thing that keeps tripping me and keeps me from being in the feeling of, Oh, it feels good to walk. This is what walking feels like in my skeleton, through my hips. Keeps my eyes down on the road rather than up on the horizon to take in the birds and the feeling and the smells. So, I feel like the why's actually, I think, the trap. This is just kind of my personal belief is that it's much more important to just be focused on what feels right to me and have that sort of discerning mindset and become skillful with that.

I think there might be an intriguing way to question that approach. Is there some kind of balance to strike with selfishness? Can you only focus on yourself and that's good enough in this world? Do we need to bring in the other to consider? But I keep having the feeling that, once again, the more I like myself and the more I have sort of this approach to my day where I'm just not hurried, not stressed, not worried, that I just start to naturally do good and nice things that are the best expression I can be. And then I don't so much have to worry about how I'm gonna help other people. It's like my presence is almost like this salve. Maybe people want to eventually come and put it on themselves.

I do think about these really powerful leaders or people who have sort of cultivated this presence where people want to be around them. If it's like that Ammaji who gives all the hugs or someone who's a guru - it seems like they don't actually go out into the world looking for the students or the people that want to be around them to learn, they just stay and they just are themselves and the next thing you know, those people that feel attracted to learn from that arrive. I feel like that's more the direction I would want to cultivate myself. Rather than how should I expend my energy to be doing the right thing for other, it's like how do I get myself in such balance that I.... it's sort of like when two gyroscopes are next to each other and somehow they balance each other out and come into this harmony where they're rotating - one starts with a wobble and the other one starts straight and just having them near each other, then they suddenly both start to come into this harmonious sort of spiraling next to each other. 

ACT: Is there anything that you'd like to ask me? 

RR: If you imagined yourself tomorrow absolutely content, what would have to change between today and tomorrow? 

ACT: (Long pause) Hmmm. That's a brutal question. I don't know. I'm not sure that's what I'm after. Even though sometimes I might think that I am. I struggle a little bit with the concept of contentment and it's near cousin, happiness. I'm not entirely sure it's the point. 

You know, there are a number of things in my life that I have great appreciation for at the moment. I'm very much in love with my partner and I'm really grateful for the relationship that I have with her. I care deeply for my dog. I like where I live and its proximity to town, so I can walk. And there's generally good things about the quality of my life. I have body aches and pains that I'm trying to address and I'm grateful for being on the Oregon Health Plan, so I don't have to worry about that financial stress. I get to do something that I like by way of work and doing these interviews. I have a best friend who I really appreciate. There's a lot of things... if you were to just write down a list of what do you want in life. I occasionally do some traveling...

But I'm definitely not happy with myself or how I handle many situations. I'm irritated by what seems to me to be a lack of values, like we talked about earlier, out in the world. I dislike that I'm being told what to do by people who I don't really respect on a governmental level. So, contentment is a hard question for me because I don't exactly know what the word means to you and what it means to everybody else and what I'm meant to experience in it. I think a greater level of compassion, a greater level of empathy, being a little bit slower to anger, a greater ability to set some level of worry aside so that I can be more present in the minutia - the things that seem to be less important than my worry are generally more important than my worry, but my worry pushes them aside. 

This could be an all-day answer. Maybe I'll leave it with that for now. (Long pause) It's a good question. Just to say one more thing, what you talked about - looking down at yourself from 10,000 feet above with binoculars - or however you put it - and wondering if you are being a person that would impress you - I think it's fair to say I often am being who I want to be. But what stands out to me are the times that I'm not. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to say in closing? 

RR: I really like the way that all just wrapped up. That felt really good. I think that segued really well into your response. Yeah, it feels good. I appreciate you. I love this. This is awesome - such a good example of someone really doing their genuine passion and just following the journey of the heart. So, that's impressive. I feel like I'm moved by that. I'm encouraged by that. 

Tiffani mentioned Ryan in our interview as they work together in the ecstatic dance and Lucid realm and then she immediately referred him to participate here. I met Ryan at his home and he greeted me with a beautiful array of snacks and dandelion tea and we sat together in a room in his house that has come to be called Temple iZ.

Joan Song

Joan came to LeeAnn’s mind as someone to refer to participate here because they had worked together on the Town Hall on Racism last fall and then met again over some follow-up KPOV radio interviews. When I met Joan she told me she had become familiar with this project through my short and sweet (my words not hers) Mayoral campaign - nice to know somebody was paying attention! Anyway, I am so grateful to LeeAnn for connecting us as I’ve had an interest in involving some younger folks in this project, but as a 36-year-old man, I have found that particular crowd to be rather inaccessible. It was a joy chatting with Joan and I am happy to introduce her to you here. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

JS: My name is Joan Song. I'm a Korean American senior at Summit High School. I'm involved in the newspaper - so journalism - as well as music. And I'm passionate about developing more relationships with people within the community and within different groups that I'm involved with. 

ACT: What concerns you or makes you sad or breaks your heart that affects you personally about things that are going on in the world today? And then what motivates you to do something about that?

JS: I think maybe apathy is what what makes me feel worst about what's happening - this total kind of lack of caring about the situations of others. I think we see that a lot in our news cycle. Where if a mass shooting happens in a different country, it stays in the news cycle for, I think, a lot longer than in our news cycle and it kind of jump starts this conversation. Whereas, in America, it almost becomes so commonplace that people are apathetic to it and they don't - when this kind of tragedy happens - they don't relate to it as much. And they don't see it as much of a problem affecting them. Even though any kind of bad thing that happens, we shouldn't just kind of brush it away and say, Well, it doesn't concern me, so I don't have to worry about it. 

I think we see that in terms of climate change and how we contribute to that. Or how the things we say can be hurtful to other people and not acknowledging that, you might be perpetrating some kind of vitriol against others. And I would say that motivates me to just reach out and try to spread awareness of certain situations, I guess. 

ACT: Do you encounter apathy in your own social circles, with your age group, your peers? And how does that affect you? 

JS: Yeah, I would guess so. The biggest situation where you might see that kind of attitude is definitely when tragedies or these violent events happen and we talk about it for two minutes and then we just accept that that's just how it is and there's nothing we can do to change it.

And it's very inspirational to see people that recover from this tragedy and do something about it - like how the Parkland survivors started that big movement. But, for the most part, it's kind of hard to see that level of caring until it happens to you, you know? I think I've been very lucky to have been involved in some projects at our school with the Town Hall Symposium on Racism and the KPOV interview and trying to do my part to shed light on some of the diversity issues that Bend faces. But I still feel like we could all be doing more to hold ourselves accountable for our own behavior. 

ACT: Have you had experiences where you've been affected by racism here?

JS: Yes. I think when people think about racism, they think of, you know, very graphic or violent physical confrontations, but there are also smaller instances that kind of permeate through your daily life as well. Like, one time I had a teacher hold me back after class and he told me, Your English! You speak such good English. You don't really speak like someone from around here, but when you write I can hardly even tell you have an accent. And that was very hurtful to me because if it was another student that said something like that, I would have just brushed it off and been like, Oh, they're just an immature student. But to hear that coming from a teacher - you know, an English teacher who's been reading my essays all year and stuff - it makes me wonder - has he been really reading my essays without bias and viewing me as a whole person? Or has he been seeing me under this impression of Well, she doesn't speak very good English 'cause she's not white and she must be from an immigrant family, so I'm going to go easy on her. You know? 

And, you know, there are like the basic instances like, Oh, go back to China or slurs and epithets. Those kinds of things are just... I don't know... I think having the support of my family and our own little Korean community in Bend makes it easier to laugh those things off. 'Cause those things kind of just... when they happen you have to realize that it's because of the ignorance of the person who perpetrates that. And you can't take it personally. You just kind of have to forgive and forget. So, it's easier to just kind of laugh it off and be like, Oh, that kind of thing happens all the time. It's fine. 

ACT: What do you we mean to each other - individual to individual?

JS: In Korean culture there's this kind of belief - a traditional belief - that there are red strings connecting you to the people that you meet. And these red strings of fate bring you together. And even if you dislike somebody or even if you don't necessarily get along with someone, there's still a reason that you met them and you can grow from your experiences and learn how to live together with other people that you might disagree with or that you just don't get along well with. And, you know, you can accept that and embrace it and realize as people, everyone else is also just a person and you have to come together. Or you could kind of reject that notion and say Well, I disagree with this person and I don't like them, so I'm just not going to engage with them. And I just feel like there's always a reason you meet someone. And individual to individual, there's always a connection of just being human together. And you can grow from those people. 

ACT: Going out from there, what does community mean to you? And what does it mean to you to be a part of a community - and I don't mean the geographic place - with so many different opinions and value systems or lack of value systems?

JS: Living here in Bend as an Asian woman, community means two things to me. First one is the Bend community of, you know, hiking, going outdoors, the sun, paddle boarding - the classic Bend community. But also being part of an ethnic community - at Christmas or at Thanksgiving - because immigrants don't have other family in the United States, all the local Koran families in Bend come together and we celebrate these holidays together because that's our community and that's our family here - our proxy family, I guess - since we don't have our blood family here with us. So, because Bend is such a majority white population, being an ethnic minority means that you're constantly a part of the ethnic community.

And I guess with the spread of social media or, like, if I travel to go to music events and I meet all these different people, I find myself gravitating toward other people that have had similar experiences to mine. And so, in that way, inadvertently, we form an ethnic community there, as well. Because, you know, if you're also a minority, there are just certain things that you relate to each other better and you understand more about each other because you've gone through similar things. And so, wherever you go, it always feels like you have the support of that ethnic community with you.

ACT: What are your thoughts on coexisting with people who have very different agendas that might be perceived as negative and what's your mechanism for handling that? And how does it factor into your future plans and how you want to live your life? 

JS: It's really easy to get angry. If someone says something insulting or ignorant to you or if someone just expresses a belief that you definitely don't agree with, it's easy to pop off on them and get upset and express hatred. And I think I'm definitely guilty of that because while I might sound very quiet and soft spoken now, I definitely can have a temper. While I think I definitely retaliated more when I was younger, as I grow older I find it easier to just block it out. You know? There's always going to be someone who has a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours. Even if it's not something that should really be an opinion thing. It's not just an opinion that white people are better than other races - that's just bigotry. But, at some point, you can't change everybody you encounter. And you can't always convince someone to act or think a different way, especially if that's just been their upbringing and the culture they've been raised in. So, I think it's important to be aware of that and to act with that in mind - that no matter how much you yell, sometimes you just can't change someone. And it might be better sometimes to just try to have a more... I guess a calmer conversation even if it what they say angers or upsets you. If you have to work together with that person, then you just have to deal with that. 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to be a certain way? And do you feel a sense of responsibility to affect positive change? 

JS: In a way I would say I do. I think when I was younger, because I lived in Sisters - which is even less diverse than Bend - I felt this need that I had to represent my race and I had to represent my ethnicity and I had to act in a way that would portray my background in a positive way so that people wouldn't think back and be like, Oh, well, all Koreans are like this or All Asians are like this because of the way I acted. But now, more recently, I think the purpose that I act with is to bring more awareness, I guess, and still to represent, but with a more positive connotation. Not kind of worrying about how my actions might reflect on my race, but more concerned about how can I contribute to making the lives of other [people of color] in our community better. And that's kind of why I was involved with the Town Hall so much and why I did the interview with KPOV and Source Weekly and even just recently attended a little committee meeting to see how we can improve the next Town Hall that we have. Because I just want to leave a positive legacy, I guess. And I want to make it better for the people that follow me in this town - in this local community. 

ACT: What would you say is your biggest motivator as you graduate high school and go off into college and enter the working world? 

JS: (Laughs) I don't know. I guess my biggest concern right now is money and affording college. So, the biggest motivator now is making sure I can find a good job after college and pay off any students loans or debts that I have and be able to successfully begin the rest of my life. I think financial concerns definitely plague many people in our generation because, you know, college is just getting so expensive. But I guess the bigger vision behind that is I would hope to do something that increases diversity. I guess an example of that would be in Fenty Beauty and how they made make-up more accessible to women of all different shades, which hadn't really been seen in the market before. I think that's a way of contributing to a positive change. And if I could do something similar to that, whether it's making an industry more inclusive or allowing more female business owners to get access to the capital they need to start their company, if it's something that's contributing to that kind of positive change, I would feel that that would be a fulfilling career. 

ACT: I give everybody I interview and opportunity to ask me something - do you have anything that you'd like to ask me?

JS: Doing this project and meeting all these different people, was there any one person that made you really take a step back and be like, Wow, that changed my worldview or something? 

ACT: I can't single anybody out.... even if I wanted to. I don't want to do that. But I can say that the majority of these conversations - I think this is number 123 - leave a mark on me. And if we want to go back to that red strings attachment that we all have to each other, I think I have quite a few red strings through this. And I think that all of those strings matter. I tend to enjoy deconstructing how we all come together anyways and how one thing leads to another. I enjoy thinking about that and I think it also induces a little but of anxiety in certain situations where you just try to figure out how this thing came about - how you met this friend. If you've made your best friend, for example - how much they've affected your life and how much you've potentially affected theirs and what would it be like if you hadn't. So I show up to each of these interviews I guess kind of fully expecting to have my life changed, you know, or at least being aware that that's a possibility. And I think I become a better, wiser, stronger, more encouraged, and more well-rounded human being after every one of these. And I have had specific conversations where someone's offered a different perspective that I think that I can use in my day-to-day in a way that will make life better for me and those around me. Is that a fair way to answer that?

JS: Yeah.

ACT: Do you have any closing remarks?

JS: Actually, I was thinking back on what I was saying earlier about representation and things like that - this is not super related, but this October I was voted as one of our four homecoming princesses. And, you know, Summit is a very white school and even if we do have minorities, we're not usually at the forefront of school events that happen. But I remember I got voted in and this other Asian - like a freshman or a sophomore, I think - told his mom that seeing another Asian involved in something like that made him really happy and really proud to see that kind of thing happening and to think that, Well, Asians have a spot at this school, too. I guess that's kind of what I mean where I feel like I have to represent something. Because in one way, that can be a bad thing where I have to carry this burden of like, Oh, I have to act a certain way. I have to be a certain way. But in another way, it can be good, too. Because I can bring that kind of positivity to someone's life. Well, if she can do it, so can I. You know? 

Joan came to LeeAnn's mind as someone to refer to participate here because they had worked together on the Town Hall on Racism last fall and then met again over some follow-up KPOV radio interviews.

Dan Baumann

I directly invited Dan to participate here because as I've gotten to know him, I’ve come to understand his heart for bringing people together. When I started talking with Dan early in 2018, he was the manager of The Commons - a café that I frequent. We began planning the end of the year show for this project and became more and more familiar with each other throughout that process. We postponed this interview for a couple months as Dan was assuming his new role as owner of The Commons. The tone of the interviews change slightly when I interview someone who I already know versus when I interview a stranger. And I’m able to push a little harder and dig a little deeper because there’s already an established level of trust. That’s particularly evident in this interview. If you don’t already know Dan, I’m happy to introduce you to him here. And if you do know him, I’m delighted to facilitate your learning even more about him. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

DB: Well, my full name is Daniel Edward Baumann. I was born in the Midwest - in Wisconsin. To describe myself as a person, I think I just... I don't know. That's a tough question. I'm a jack of all trades, I think. I've done a lot of different things in my life and I don't think I'm master at anything, but I have a lot of skills and I can bring a lot to the table when I'm working with people. And I would consider myself a team player. I was a Boy Scout. All those things, I've found, have culminated into who I am. I live by that set of standards of treating people as I want to be treated and I think that's gotten me where I am in life right now. 

My personality is one.. a lot people say pessimistic (laughs), but I say realist. If there's gonna be a flaw in something, I usually try and find that flaw ahead of time or plan for it, at least. And I want to be the person that's prepared to deal with issues or deal with things as they come up. But, in doing so, I feel like I can address a lot of variable situations. I guided rafts; I coached snowboarding - all the stuff that I've done in my past has taken a lot of planning. I was a teacher for a while - I went to school for teaching. I did a lot of management stuff. It all kind of culminates into being prepared and being able to act on my feet, which I think I'm good at. 

And I think that's my personality. I get called Dad a lot (laughs) because I fill that role in a lot of situations. And I think it's something that is endearing, but also can be a label in some way. I also get relied on a lot for being in that role. But I don't think I would trade who I am for anybody (laughs). To be honest, I'm really happy. 

ACT: This question has become really complicated to ask. 

DB: That first question was complicated to answer (laughs). 

ACT: There might be a theme here, then. I want to say "What concerns you?" and I would like to leave it at that, but what I want to know is on a regular basis as you go about your life, what is that breaks your heart and makes you sad and affects you - about society or community or humanity or whatever? And then what motivates you to do something about that? What is it that continues to kind of encourage you to keep going? 

DB: Man! I think there's so much... there's a lot of materialism and negativity in the world today. And I think... I don't know.... I feel like a large part of the population has kinda lost it's way. And that bothers me. I actually get a little emotional about that... (long pause and tears). 

I've been having these moments lately where it's... I think it's just 'cause I'm having a kid. This is not expected. But to face the reality as a father. And my wife doesn't know this - that I get like this. It kinda scares me. I don't know. I just feel like there's so much shit going on in the world that it scares me to bring up a kid in it. And I want the best possible life for them. (Sighs) This is almost like therapy (laughs). Jesus! Sometimes it hits ya. 

But, with that being said, I don't think we could be in a better place. I don't think I could be in a better place for brining somebody into the world - outside of having my parents right next door. I think there's a very strong community here of people that really care about other people. But there's also the flip side of that where we have a community that... I think they want to be a part of something, but there's a selfishness. And I just want to be part of the loving community here, which is why this place here means so much to me. 'Cause I feel that love every day when I'm working here. This place speaks a lot to me. Being downtown - there is a good, positive energy here. Like I said, in general, I know there's a very supportive community here that looks on the bright side, I guess. And I want to be close to that and part of that and be able to raise my child with that. 

And I don't want to be naive to what's going on in the rest of the world or why I'm feeling this way right now, but I want to be able to embrace what I know I can here. And not necessarily grasp at straws or try and create this perfect community or world, but accept what I have going for me here and where I can bring a child into. I don't know if this is at all answering your question. I'm just kind of rambling, I guess. It's kinda heavy. 

ACT: It's super heavy. It's heavy by design. It's interesting hearing you talk - it's almost like I'm interviewing myself. I have the same struggle. Not to say that I know exactly what you're going through, but I have that heaviness about things, too. And I feel it every day. And more days than not it brings me to tears, so I'm familiar with this. I also think it's very important to have people with this outlook. Right? To stand as some sort of check or balance for the people that are the bright-siders or the people that are kind of just in the game of - right now it seems to be - materialism and consumption. So, if everybody was that way, I think we'd have some serious problems. 

DB: Yeah. I guess to relate to that, my upbringing was you make do with what you had and wore shit out. Like, I'm still using this phone that I can't even talk into (laughs) because I don't want to give in to getting something new. And that's...  I don't know. My family's always done a lot with not a whole lot. We were never poor or anything, but it was just the way both my mom and my dad's family was Midwest-raised. They grew up on a farm and you used everything until you couldn't use it anymore - it was fully broke. Honestly, another part of it is like you can't buy anything anymore that lasts longer than two years (laughs). I find myself looking for old tools.... and I brought a tractor from 1973 or '74 and it runs. It feels like everything was built better and we're looking at conveniences now. I don't know. That's a-whole-nother situation where stuff is just... use it for six months to two years and then you get something new and get something new. I don't know how anybody feels like anything is theirs or they care about anything. It's just like everything's disposable. And I don't want that. I want something that I know I can work with or people around me that I know care about that stuff. I don't know. It's a lot (laughs). I think that's a lot to do with it. Again, it's like a lot of people have lost their way. And they're very easily influenced. And I don't know what causes that. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other as individuals? 

DB: Again, I think there's a spectrum. On one hand, you have people - they're more and more about me and I and How do I get ahead, How do I get this, How do I get...? And the competition has been pushed to a point of they're not even noticing other people. Then the far other, and it's like fully team players and like, What's mine is yours and all that kind of stuff. And I want to say most people are kind of in between there. The way I view other people is as people. I often find myself questioning, Where does this person go next? I deal with people all the time here. Some of them I get to know; some of them I try to get to know; some of them, obviously, they don't want you to get to know. But I want to be able to see people for who they are. And I think the more people that can do that - at least acknowledge that not everybody gets to go home and be happy and leads the same life as you - not necessarily walk in somebody's shoes, but accept that those are different shoes and they have it different. I think the more people you can expose yourself to and get to know or at least attempt to get to know, I think the better off you are as a person. 

I would say in my career doing customer service and all this kind of stuff, I'm very thankful to have gotten to know the people that I have and kind of have a better understanding of humanity and what makes people tick, too. I think there's a side of customer service that you have to be able to quickly recognize people's needs and desires. And if you're able to do that - a quick transaction or a quick conversation can happen - and you kinda gain all the information you really need to make that person happy. And in my job role, that's kind of what I want to do is make sure people leave happier than [how] they came in. I think there's a lot of jobs out there that that's not the case - it's trying to beat the other person. I don't know - I feel like I'm a little philosophical on that one (laughs). Again, it's these things that you don't really think about until you're asked them. 

I think if people were to view me, a lot of the time people think I can be cranky or stressed out just because I have the resting bitch face. I'm either thinking about something... and I don't know have the friendliest disposition. So, I think that's one barrier if people can break through for me, they'll find something different. I hope. I don't know (laughs). I think I have a crust on me that needs to be broken here and there. 

I just wish people saw other people more often. And not just looked at them, but actually saw them. Okay, this person's obviously in pain or struggling with something. And not just to brush that off, but kind of take it and.... even seeing people help other people in these conditions outside right now is pretty heartwarming. 

ACT: That a good segue. If that's the individual level, what does community mean to you? And, talk about philosophical, how did that word come to be a thing that people desire? Where does that whole thing come from? And why is it important? 

DB: I mean, I don't know the root of the word, but I think, to me... I grew up in a church and every time somebody talks about community I kind of think back to that. It was a Methodist church, so it wasn't Catholic or Lutheran or something.... our church was more focused on who the people that were surrounding you were and how you can support each other and stuff like that. And I think a lot of what I envision [of] community does derive from that. But now I've definitely transformed into something like more of an acceptance of people. Most of the time with a commonality or common thought in mind, but I do believe that to have a stronger community base, you have to have differences. There has to be differences brought to the table and I think that makes everybody stronger within that. 

If I were to describe more specifically a community of people, I would say there's community that surround say... at least locally, our athletic community. Like I said, common-minded people - they want to pursue all the outdoor activities. And that's a cool community to be a part of. There's also a community here that is very musical, which I love being a part of. I'm not musical myself, but in my role here I'm able to facilitate people that... I get to see that community come together. There's an arts community. So they all kind of have this common, main goal. The coffee community here is huge, too. That's another part of why I'm here and what I decided to pursue. That's a pretty cool community. There's a lot of passion that goes into producing a cup of coffee and a lot of background to that. And a lot of people either recognize that or they just love the flavor and the taste and they just want to be part of something. I don't know. 

Outside of that there's a lot small communities here, but what it means together is kinda coming together and you all have something in common. And if you're part of that, hopefully you're also learning from the other people that are part of that community. And you're able to grow alongside each other, with each other, and support each other and kind of have each other's backs, in some ways. Or be able to teach and learn for that focused community. But broader than that, all these little sub-communities actually makes our bigger circle more diverse. And in that even a stronger community feel is where you start tying in people - somebody that's into mountain biking over here but they also play guitar and they also cross-stitching or whatever. (Laughs) There's all these little, tiny niches that consider themselves a community, but they're also part of this gigantic one. And I think the more of those you have and the more of those you can support and really draw strength from and learn from, I think as human beings, we become more full and more feel a part of something.

And - at least it's my theory - if you feel like you're a part of something, you tend to not dive down the rabbit hole of something that could possibly be a negative thing for you or for others. I think if you have other people around you - support you and learn from and teach and all that kinda stuff -if you have other people that hold you accountable and you hold them accountable. And I think that's also part of being part of community is that accountability aspect. You can't always just do what you want. I think that's also really important. You end up getting these social norms within these small communities and it kinda keeps people put together and in bounds, per se. 

ACT: What are your thoughts on these communities of people who are out of bounds - a community of racists or the KKK or groups of men who don't really challenge each other's ethics and support each other in their shittier behaviors and don't help their neighbor in the snow and don't let someone in in traffic and do live a life that even though it's interactive with all of these other people is purely seemingly selfish? Does it affect you and what do you do in your brain to get through it? This is a long question, but how do you have your values and want to perpetuate them without it being proselytizing? 

DB: I see what you mean. To be completely honest, and why I feel so supported here, I'm not exposed to that here on the regular. So, it is somewhat of a bubble here... in Bend, in general. When you have a group that the majority of people would see as a negative - like a racist group or something like that - they probably consider themselves a community based on a common value or something... I don't know. That's hard. I don't think I've ever been face-to-face exposed. So, I guess that would be a weakness in my view of everything is I'm not exposed to that on the regular or I don't allow myself to be and I don't foresee myself being the person to search that out and try and change that. I think I'm more the person of supporting positivity or the people around me in hopes that person will go on to something and show that positivity or at least acknowledge other people and let it grow that way as opposed to going right to something. 

I don't know [if] being part of one of those groups or something like that if you can (sighs) really rely on and feel like you're learning from the other people in that community. I feel like groups that coalesce or come together around hating or disliking other people for some reason, I would question whether those people are willing to work with each other or truly stand next to each other or accept the other's differences when they come together based on one thing they see as negative. Does that make any sense? I think that there's that unwillingness to accept or learn from people outside of your group or even others within your group if they don't see eye-to-eye with you on something. Maybe I'm totally off-base on this. I don't know.

To me, to be a part of something that is pretty focused on excluding or for whatever reason not liking another race or another human being kind of puts up a barrier or a wall. There's something wrong there. I don't know if that's a true community. Coming back to the church example, churches accept - I mean, they're supposed to - they accept people from all over. At least the one I was part of - they embraced diversity and they understood the more viewpoints and perspectives that you can include in that community, the better off everybody was within. And I think the groups outside of that that are, like I said, more focused on exclusionary stuff, I think they're missing that key component of actually being a community and having an effect, I think, overall. Yeah, they're gonna affect people, but not in a direction that's gonna be long-lasting. I think history has proven that the more exclusionary you get in your beliefs, your lifespan is short-lived. There again, I could be totally off (laughs). 

ACT: Do you feel a sense of purpose or a compulsion to be a certain way? And do you feel a sense of responsibility to affect positive change? 

DB: Yeah. For sure. Going back to my very emotional answer, I think now more than ever, if I want to be here and even though this, admittedly so, is a bubble... but if I can create as much of a positive environment locally... or being able to bring a child into this and having other people and their young kids who are going through the same thing I am now - I think that's a big driver for me to at least create a safe space for this child to come into. That's on a selfish level.

But I think on a bigger level, I want this - and I'm speaking specifically about what I'm doing here, I guess, in this business - I want people to view this place as kind of a safe haven and like they're walking into their grandma's house. With that objective in mind and being able to facilitate that, I think as people visit here and out-of-towners come in or families bring in other family members, I think we can instill something that hopefully can grow a little bit. When we acknowledge people as they walk in the door and that kind of stuff, that goes back to good customer service; it's just being nice to people. And I think if I can cultivate that - and I do honestly feel a responsibility to that - I think we can affect people's days, one, and not only a day, if they can reflect on how they were treated, moving forward, possibly pass it along. Yeah. That's a bit of a weight. But it's something I've always wanted to do.

I want to be surrounded by good people. And the more I can do to facilitate that in a public setting like this, the more likelihood that's gonna happen. So, I guess that's all a little selfish, but I think in general it's better for people as a whole. And I know I'm not the only one (laughs) that has that feeling and that objective and they've taken their station in life to do what they can to basically make somebody's day or help people. That's what I want to keep doing - whether it's in a career or in general. I've just found it the most satisfying, I guess, in life is being able to do that and keep people happy.

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything?

DB: How do you feel this project is going? And is there a commonality within answers from people. Obviously there is because it's part of this thing, but I don't know... now that you made me think about this a little bit more, (laughs) I don't know if I'm actually part of this bigger community or if I'm just selfish. I don't know, do people reflect that way, I guess? 

ACT: How do I feel this project is going is a question probably better answered by my partner (laughs) who witnesses the effects of it on me. I have a super heavy-hearted answer for this. And I don't know if that's due to being in it too deep or having my myopic vision or if it's due to having a sense of urgency, but there's different ways to answer it. 

On the whole, as an undertaking - as an endeavor for my career as a documentary photographer or photojournalist - in the here and now, I often wonder, "What am I doing?" and "Why?" and "Who cares?" because I see the numbers of people who engage with it electronically on the analytics on my website and on Instagram and they don't match up to my effort by any stretch of the imagination. So, that's very frustrating. That hurts me deeply. It also makes me question my own metrics; it makes me question my own sanity; it makes me question my self-confidence. It affects me in every way. 

On the other hand, in the here and now, this project is what lets me sit here with you and grow our  relationship and grow our friendship and witness you thinking about things in a different way for maybe the first time. On a person-to-person level, there's nothing better in the entire world than this project. I feel very grateful and moved for the opportunity to sit here with people and have these conversations. And I feel somehow legitimized that people are willing to do it and be audio-recorded and be on the internet and all of this. So, I feel very conflicted about this project. But I also feel - and I don't know to totally deconstruct this - but I feel like it's something I'm supposed to be doing. 

I definitely think there's a way that people answer these questions. And it's not so different than how we interact - just to answer the second part of your question. It's not so different than how we engage and interact in the world. We have this tendency to put on airs. I'm not entirely sure what that's about. So, in that, we have a tendency to want to come across in certain ways. And not everybody is as willing to expose their vulnerabilities. I think there's two trains of thought. One of them is modeling that behavior encourages that behavior; it breeds more vulnerability and I think more relational trust and intellectual and emotional growth. The other train of thought is showing those weaknesses is terrible and you need to be seen as stronger in this survival of the fittest kind of way. So, I'm torn about that, too. Because what if the fittest is actually the most empathic or the most compassionate or the most vulnerable? We have this idea that the fittest is this cold, determined, Ayn Rand character of a person who won't let anybody stand in their way and take what they want at all costs. But that's just not the philosophy that I live my life by. 

I'm down about the state of the world. And I'm down about humanity. I wake up in the morning and down is where I begin (laughs) and so I have to find things throughout the course of my day and weeks and months and years in life to remind myself that it's not so bad. So, this project is definitely helping me do that. And I think that's also what we have in common is everybody wants it to be better. Some people have a really funny way of going about that or they're confused and they're flawed in that approach. Not that I'm not. I think we all want things to be better. And, generally, we're better if we're encouraging and we're friendly and we're polite and we're honest. Right? And we're all of these things combined into this well-rounded human. I get glimmers of hope from this, but I, like you, make sure that I find all of the weak points and try to hammer them out. 

DB: You ask my wife, I will plan and plan and plan and overthink everything, but when shit hits the fan, I typically have an answer. Like you said, things kind of scare me right now, but my sense of community and my sense of the people that I've met and worked with and play poker with every once in a while, I think there's enough strength in those people that I choose - I guess it is a choice - to surround myself with that I feel pretty good. But I also want - and probably most everybody in this project - they want that sense of faith and trust. Trust in other people to grow a little bit more each day. I think, ultimately, that's probably what you want, too. (Laughs) I don't know. Even if it's just this project and letting people.... I'm now thinking about so much I can affect or do or work with others on. 

ACT: Do you have any parting words or would you consider those them? 

DB: I think that could be that and it could be it. (Laughs) Enough tears today. 

I directly invited Dan to participate here because as I've gotten to know him, I've come to understand his heart for bringing people together. When I started talking with Dan early in 2018, he was the manager of The Commons - a café that I frequent.