LeeAnn O'Neill

As former colleagues at Saving Grace and now both members of Allyship in Action, Erin Rook recommended LeeAnn to participate here. Before we started recording, I asked LeeAnn why she decided to accept the invitation and she said, “… because, as a woman of color, I wanted to provide a voice and a face that had not been represented much in this project yet and have the opportunity to connect other voices from marginalized communities to the project.” That’s a pretty good reason, if you ask me. And our conversation together got me thinking. So, I am going to diverge from the norm and take the liberty to share some of my thoughts on this topic with you in a few paragraphs at the end of the interview.* For now, though, this interview is full of LeeAnn’s heart and thoughtfulness. It was a pleasure meeting her and I am happy to introduce you to her here. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

LO: I would describe myself as, first of all, just a human being. But the way I describe who I am is really kind of a[n] amalgamation of my life experiences and how I react to those. I don't think our life experiences necessarily define who we are because sometimes we're handed a lot in life that is less than others or more than others, but how we react to that and we live in that space is what makes me who I am. 

So, I am an adoptee - I was born in South Korea and adopted by a white family. And I grew up in rural west Michigan - a very Christian, reformed area. My parents were actually pretty liberal for that time and space. They were originally from Canada and California and they both came into their adulthood in California. And I'm also a recovering attorney. I was a corporate K Street attorney for about five and a half years and I left it to start over. Basically sold every single thing I owned and had nothing but about two boxes I left at my parent's place and I biked across Mexico. So, I'm a cyclist. I bike year round. In fact, I biked on my snow bike with my studded bike tires (laughs) to this interview. In part because I think just getting outside, for me, every day is really important. 

I'm an activist but a reluctant one. I seem to find myself in spaces where I feel the need to be constructive and speak up and participate, but not always that first person jumping in. I'm really into trying to hold onto the boundaries so that I don't get sucked into it and let it take over my life. So, I really fight to have that balance - whether it is promising myself it is okay to go out and ride my bike all day or go for a long hike and not dive into whatever project is in front of me. I'm also, in some ways, someone who always has to stay busy. So, that kind of counters that. And as far as being an activist goes, I found that I have stepped into it more recently. Because I do feel like I have something to say and, especially in this community, it's really, really important. 

I'm a survivor of domestic violence and sexual assault, which led to me spending almost five years as the legal advocate at Saving Grace. Which provided a valuable way for me to give back to that really vulnerable population. They're some of the most amazing people and resilient people to work with. 

A lot of times I also consider myself an artist. I find myself escaping into art and music and play. I'm a capoeirista - capoeira is a Brazilian martial arts form that some would say comes indirectly from Africa and the tradition of slavery in Brazil. It's very folkloric as far as what is true and what is not. But it is something I'm really passionate about now in my life. I'm a dancer. I teach salsa also at Latin Dance Bend. And so, I try to keep all of these things in my life to kind of bring that balance because so much of my day-to-day is throwing myself into Access to Justice projects with my job at the courthouse or through my work with Allyship in Action with another A Community Thread interviewee, Erin Rook, and Kerani Mitchell, who is another amazing equity trainer in the community. 

And so how I react to all of this is I try to step into spaces where I feel like I can be useful, while trying to maintain that balance and enjoying everything that this community has to offer. Very long-winded way of saying who I am (laughs). 

ACT: So, I've turned this question into a multi-part because asking it in simple terms hasn't really been providing the answers I've been looking for. I want to ask, "What concerns you?" And I would love to just leave it there, but I'm going to add a bunch of things. What makes you sad or breaks your heart in a way that affects the way that you live your life - in a way that inhibits you? And maybe for some they want to say some of the more grandiose life issues, like the failures of society, but I don't know that we're often able to associate with them directly on a day-to-day. So, what affects you in that way and what motivates you to do something about it? 

LO: So, one of the things that I really love about my job at the courthouse... I'm the family law facilitator, which means I help folks who can't afford attorneys navigate their family law cases - custody, divorces, and legal separations. About 70% of our cases start without attorneys. And I think it's really easy in Bend to get stuck in our own social circles. If you're upper middle class, that's the circle you get stuck in and you don't see that there's homeless camps down by the Fred Meyer. You don't see that there are people that are living in trailer parks or people are homeless and living in their cars or the folks that live out in La Pine or on the outskirts of Redmond. 

And the really unique thing about my job is that I really get to work with and provide assistance to just a really large swath of our community. So, a lot of times it's the individual people's stories that I hear as people come to seek help on very personal issues - a lot of times in crisis and because there's something that's not working or it's their children and that's the thing that's the most important to them. And it's hard because a lot of times I can't help. I'm not licensed to practice law anymore; I can really only provide procedural advice. But I hear these really, really personal stories. Like someone who had to drop out of high school and they really couldn't read or write very well and so I was helping them with the paperwork and they kept apologizing because they couldn't spell basic, four-letter words. And this is someone who, when I pulled up their case, had a criminal record. That first instinct, that gut reaction, is to judge that person. And then you hear more of the story and find out that this person had to drop out of high school to get a job to help out their family so they've not had any education since they were in 9th grade. And they've been in the same job - the same kind of basic labor job - since they were in 9th grade. This person is the same age as I was and still making minimum wage. 

And when I think about the cycle of poverty that that person got stuck in... I know you talked about not wanting to talk about systems, but talking about people within that system having that personal story - it really highlights some of the things in our own community that I think are failing. They're failing our kids. They're failing just generally people who have been here for generations and folks who are newer here. And while there's a lot of great things to be said about Bend, there is a really huge income disparity. We have socioeconomic lines across the city. Even when people look at where I live - it's kind of an up and coming neighborhood - but people make comments like, Wow, there's that trailer park that's over there. Don't you feel unsafe? And so, that's kind of what's heartbreaking is that there's that division. We have a lot of really well-intentioned folks that have money, that have means and ability and privilege to be able to do things on a very local level, but don't really take the time to get to know and have actual dialogue with everyone else. 

(Brief interruption from housemate coming through in the audio version...)

So, when I hear these individual stories, there are spaces where I can make things better. It's interesting - I was applying for a job and I'd asked a friend of mine, What do you see as one of my strengths. And he was like, You're a fixer. You're that person that's always trying to find that little way to makes things better. And so, whether it's in the context of my work... I'm the only bi-lingual court staff - I speak Spanish and English. Whether it's trying to put all my signs up in Spanish or making sure that things are written at a level that makes sense so its' not all this super legalese. But, I'm always kind of looking at ways to at least find some small solution. It may not be the big solution. For example, we were overhauling our parenting plans and trying to make them serve our population better, acknowledging that there's a whole range of different safety issues that parents who are trying to parent safely have and while they still may be able to parent, they might just need to have more flexible parenting safety provisions. So, the great thing about this community is that you are able to make change if you really want to - if you know how to dig into that space and make a reasoned argument. Because people here are community oriented. 

For me, personally, I need to be in a job where I can leave this place a better place than when I started. Whether it's that job space or finding that spark of joy that someone has when they finally figure out how to do that one move in salsa or whether it's me in my own kind of journey in capoeira - it can be really uncomfortable because you have to learn the music and the history and the culture on top of the martial arts piece. It's finding those little spaces where you can leave it a little bit better, leave someone else feeling that they've been helped. And so that's how I kind of get through it because, honestly, in this current political climate, I got pretty depressed after the elections. And my reaction to make myself feel better was like, I'm gonna host a free anti-racism training for the community. And it just happened to fall during Welcoming Week and I was just like, I just need to do this for my brain. To just do something and make it feel like I was being able to impart something that was gonna help other people. And so that's kinda how I cope is I'm forever looking for that thing to leave that mark somehow. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other - individual to individual - out in the world? 

LO: You know, we used to be a culture and a society of It takes a village - and we've seen it a little bit with these latest snowstorms that have come through - but I think we've really kind of started living in boxes by ourselves and it's become really unhealthy. And what we mean to each other is we really need to re-find that human connection. So much of this world has become kind of an Us vs. Them - the people that live in those trailer parks or the people that live in Northwest Crossing. Those white people. Those brown people. And really realizing that in order for us to really succeed as a community, we need to re-find that human connection and figure out what the heck we have in common rather than what divides us. So, whether that's me sitting there with someone.... I've had this moment where someone was wearing their Make America Great hat in my office and still trying to have that space to make a connection with that person and have that person feeling like they were helped walking out of my office at work. Because I have to deal with a very large variety of people and realizing that that person sitting there who may have done things that seem outrageous to me is still a human being. So, I'm really feeling like that's the way that our meaning with each other needs to be moving towards because this divisiveness is just causing everyone to implode, whether it's locally or on a nationwide level. 

ACT: The follow up to that was going to be "What does community mean to you?", but I feel like you just answered it. My impression is that not everybody shares your view. Life has become very compartmentalized and there are all these boxes and you are this and they are that and you make this money and they make that or blah blah blah, on and on and on. There seems to be an infinite number of ways to create that otherness. So, what is it about "It takes a village", what is it about your sense of community, what is it about the way that you feel that this is important that you manage to get and that you're trying to perpetuate? And why is it so difficult sometimes to make that point clear? 

LO: I think it's really difficult to make that point clear because for people who making the connections won't necessarily make their individual circumstance feel better, they have the privilege to not step into it. And by that I mean, for example, when we look at doing anti-racism work, I do it out of survival as someone who has experienced hate crimes based on the color of my skin or where people think I'm from. I don't have a choice but to engage it. I don't have choice but to find that connection with that person who's being hateful because my survival depends on it. There are other people who by virtue of the privileges they have, whether it's money or being part of a society that makes it just a little easier to be white or to be a man or to be able-bodied or to be beautiful or all of those different places where anyone can hold privilege, including myself - I hold privilege of education and having grown up in an upper middle class family - it's easy to not engage because it doesn't really impact us. Right? 

For me, let's talk about my privilege of education - I can say, You know what, I don't really have much invested in making the educational system better because I'm already there. Me engaging in it isn't gonna necessarily make me better or my life better, so I have that privilege to take a step aside. But let's say we have someone who's living down the street who’s got children who are in that school system that's broken - that's not teaching things in a way that's gonna allow all kids to come up in a way that gives them a chance - that person is gonna do it because of that necessity.

So, I think part of the reason why it's hard for everyone to step in is because some people have that privilege to not have to care and they can focus on their own lives and the small spaces in which they're feeling like, Well, actually, this thing is impacting me badly, so let's focus on that. Rather than looking at that bigger picture.  But it's that privilege to be able to say, Today, I'm too tired to deal with it. As a white person doing anti-racism work, I'm too busy. I have my own life things, so I'm gonna take that step away for a second. I think that's where we all get caught up. We all kinda get caught up in our own immediate needs and, as human beings, we're essentially selfish human beings. Right? I have a selfish need to advance equity work because it impacts my day-to-day. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live a values-based life and a sense of responsibility to affect positive change? 

LO: I do think that I have this drive to leave the world a better place than when I entered it or at least not to cause harm - at the very least not to cause harm. There is something that drives me to make things better. I don't know where that comes from - it's just kind of this internal thing that kinda comes out. As far as values-based, I'm always trying to learn because I don't have all the answers now. I'm forever reassessing what that is. 

ACT: Do you feel a responsibility to affect positive change? 

LO: I do. I actually feel it from a couple different places. I feel it from within. There's definitely this cycle of, I should be doing this. I'm not doing enough. To, Oh my gosh, if I keep doing all of this I'm not gonna be around to continue doing this work. And then, externally, I feel like I get a lot of that pressure, too. Especially in a smaller community like ours, if you're seen as a mover or shaker or an activist, all of a sudden - and this is where I talk about being a reluctant activist - is you start getting asked to do a lot of things. So, if you're a qualified person that comes from a marginalized community, that can speak in terms that the mainstream community can understand, all of a sudden you get asked to do things left and right. 

I had several people, for example, approach me to throw my hat in for the empty seat on City Council that Sally Russell vacated and I just... I had to kinda dig my heels in and say no because I felt like people were putting that responsibility on me. They're like, Well, LeeAnn, but you would be so good. Or they do that to a lot of my colleagues, too, You would be so good. You need to do this thing. But these are the same people that are being asked to do twenty other things. So I get a sense of feeling responsible because the community's asking me and also that internal voice that's saying, You need to do all these things. And that's where I really try to lean in to the things that keep me sane, which is dance, art, music, being outdoors, riding my bike - whatever it is - to find that balance so that I can kind of shut that sense of too much responsibility off. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to ask me? 

LO: What's been the biggest thing that you've learned about our community from this project? Kind of the big takeaway... 

ACT: Well, this is interview 121, so I don't know that I've interviewed enough people to make up my mind about this particular geographic community. And it's also not scientific, right? There's a heavy lean for people to kind of have good answers for these questions. And the answers, to a slightly varying degree, are the same. And so I guess I've learned something through that - that we want to be perceived in a way. We want to be seen and heard as being caring. We want the world to know that we're dissatisfied with the state of things. 

I think one of the things that I've learned… and I learn what I want, too, right? I kind of curate my own learning experience. But one of the things that I've learned through this is that it's difficult for people to be vulnerable even when they're given a direct opportunity and a safe opportunity to be. Maybe that's an oxymoron, I guess - safe vulnerability. 

LO: Well, how would you describe this as a safe opportunity? Because I think that can mean different things to different people. 

ACT: Yeah, right. It can definitely mean different things to different people. If I had the chance to become friends with these 121 people, for example, intimately - really know them and do these interviews, maybe years of having a relationship, and if A Community Thread, as an entity, was more popular or people were seeing that it had a greater effect in real, tangible ways, I think people might be more inclined to answer the questions in a way that I think that they can and in a way that I think would be more contagious positively and affect more positive change. 

So, I try to model it. In this answer it's not uncommon for me to have been crying during this. But that's my take. That's my experience in the world. Yeah, I'm disheartened about the way things are, too, but this is my attempt to make it better. I just don't see the point of getting ahead as a singular entity when everything else stays the same or maybe even gets worse. On one hand it's refreshing - what I learn about people through this process. On another hand, it's very frustrating because I want people to meet me in a slightly different space. On one hand it helps me to understand that as I go out in the world and engage and disengage to varying degrees that there are people that do care. And that changes my perception of humanity. There's people from all over the country and the world here in Bend, right, so it's not just this is some weird Central Oregon town where nothing has ever happened. There's plenty of influence here. So, I think I'm getting an example of the world. I wouldn't say there's one big takeaway. There's not something that I could put into my elevator pitch that says this is what I've learned about people through this project. It's very early, even though it's year three... 

LO: I agree. I noticed as I went through some of the previous interviews, people try to present this curated face, right? I think a part of that, though... it's hard to create a space for vulnerability, I think, on a first meeting. And so I think that this conversation could have been really different if we'd had an initial conversation kind of just like off the record. And maybe having your personal take on the project and what you're looking for and then to have a little space and then to come back and have a second conversation. Because I know that I can be open in a way that's different when I've already established some kind of connection with whoever the interviewer is. So, just something I would think about. If you're really looking for that space of What's that vulnerable, nitty-gritty underside, and is this person willing to share it in this public space?, I think that comes with needing to create a little bit more of a relationship or connection or trust piece there, I think, before people are just gonna spill that stuff. 

ACT: Yeah. I don't know. I think that's individual to individual and also based on how little opportunity we have to show who we are out in general, day-to-day activities - out in public. Whether you're driving in the car, are you using the signal? Or you're letting someone in or you're helping your neighbor shovel. We don't often have chance after chance after chance to prove ourselves, so this is one opportunity, I think, where people can articulate themselves in whatever way they wish. And there's only so much that I think I should do to twist people's arm. So, I don't know. That's just an observation. And it changes a little. It takes people's time, too. This takes planning and effort and trying to cordon off the apartment for the day and this kind of thing. So, then, trying to do that twice with people... there's a lot to it. 

Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing?

LO: No, but if you want something that's a little bit more real... I think when we talk about struggle in our personal life, our communities, I definitely have been struggling a lot with a sense of anger and frustration in doing equity work. When I say I'm a reluctant activist, I'm really speaking to the way that I'm able to engage with meaningful white progressives in our community. And so I was tiptoeing a little bit around that, but I come in and out of some of these spaces because of my real frustration with people being in spaces and not being able to share those spaces and really respecting the voices of color or voices that come from marginalized communities. 

I was just at the Muse Conference this weekend and all these folks came out to see these big-ticket activists of color that are known nationwide because they've been splattered over Twitter or Instagram or whatever, but there's very little showing up for the leaders of color in our own community. So, that's something that I really struggle with. And that's kind of part of why I have tried... I'm working with Erin and Kerani with Allyship in Action to really be more intentional and constructive about it. And working with other people that come from marginalized communities to be able to keep engaging in the work without feeling so just angry all the time. Because I can forgive the person who has yelled the crappy thing to me out their window that's racist or misogynistic or whatever because often times there's a whole context behind that where I'm like, Okay, that was your upbringing or your context in life and that's just displaced anger. And then there's folks who think that they kind of know everything - educated people who have the means and the ability to know better. Like the people who didn't vote in the last election. Those are the people I really get livid about. 

So, when I do talk about being a reluctant activist, there is a lot of anger there. And that's one of the hardest parts about being in this community - is being in that work and trying to share that space with white progressives who don't want to relinquish control of their little corner of the equity pie sometimes. So, I'll leave it at that - a little bit more of an honest note at the end. 

As former colleagues at Saving Grace and now both members of Allyship in Action, Erin Rook recommended LeeAnn to participate here. Before we started recording, I asked LeeAnn why she decided to accept the invitation and she said, "...

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* As I mentioned in the introduction, my interview with LeeAnn prompted some heavy thinking in me on the subject of racism. Maybe you aren’t too interested in hearing what another white guy has to say on that topic. If that’s true, then you can skip this next part. If you are curious, then please read on.

There is an overwhelming white presence here in Bend. The State of Oregon has a very racist history and I don’t doubt we are suffering the consequences from those past decisions. As someone who has lived in major cities all across America and abroad, I don’t feel very comfortable with the demographic here. But, I am a white male, so my perspective is certainly different than that of any minority. And it is very easy for me to blend in, as it were. As the creator of this project, I take on somewhat of a curatorial role, but as this is also a mostly referral-based project, I find myself in the position of interviewing whoever another participant recommends. 

I tell people that I welcome diversity of all kinds, but the fact of the matter is that Bend is 92% white, which, according to the numbers I just ran, makes this project a fairly accurate representation of this particular population. But, I struggle with that. Is that okay? I’d like to see more diversity of all kinds here and I’d like to better highlight the diversity that is in this community. 

For my previous project - I Heart Strangers - I used to walk the streets of wherever I happened to be (mostly Boston and Denver) and pick someone to talk to and make a portrait of. I did this for 625 consecutive days and I was keenly aware of fairly representing ages, genders, colors, shapes, sizes, etc. And that daily decision ultimately had a very strange effect on me and began to cause me anxiety. Why was I choosing to interact with this or that person? Was I responding to a magnetism - some kind of personal instinct - or was I choosing someone simply for these outward qualifiers? I never found much peace in that role and I eventually gave the project up - not entirely for that reason but it definitely played a part in my decision. 

As I make my way through the world, I am mostly concerned with matters of the heart, but those aren’t always apparent. Additionally, I can’t tell by looking at someone if they are gay or trans or religious or conservative or if they mistreat their children, partner, or pet. I can see how people act from time to time - how they interact in line at the grocery store or how they behave in traffic - but for the most part we remain a mystery to one another. And that’s why I do this project. I am curious to know more about folks than I tend to find out in the few seconds I may have them as we both go about our lives. 

The color of someone’s skin doesn’t tell me much, if anything, about them. It doesn’t tell me how or where they were raised, how they vote, how intelligent they are, how caring they are, how funny they are, or how capable they are. But for some reason that I can’t seem to wrap my head around, it matters to so many folks. It matters for so many wrong reasons and so much hate and harm comes from this one judgment, both historically and also present day and both here in the United States and all over the world. 

This breaks my heart. I know I’m not going to put an end to this issue with this project, but I do hope I can, at the very least, contribute to the understanding and acceptance that what matters is what is on your heart. What matters is how you treat the people around you. Community has many meanings and brings to mind different things for different folks. For example, I think of our planet as a community and all the people and critters and inanimate natural objects as part of it. And I think it is our responsibility to take care of it and each other. But what I see as I observe is a lot of people mistreating one another in myriad ways - a seemingly endless list of ways. And I don’t know why we can’t seem to break that cycle. 

Thanks for hearing me.

Ari Halpern

I met Ari through his wife, Lisa, at the end of the year show I had this past December. He and I only chatted for a moment, but Lisa mentioned she was going to refer Ari to the project then. I arrived at Ari's office on a very wintery Valentine’s Day and as we chatted we could see the snow falling outside - quite romantic, really. As is often the case, we talked for quite some time before turning on the recorder. I often wish I could share that part of the conversation, but doing so would inevitably change the course. Anyway, Ari and I covered many topics in the interview and you should get a good sense of how it went. Things get pretty real towards the end. Ari’s got a huge heart and a deep capacity for empathy. I enjoyed talking with him and getting to know him and I am so glad to introduce him to you here.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

AH: Well, my name is Ari Halpern. How I describe myself - I guess I have a How should I describe myself? and How is someone listening to this - what do I want them to hear? Or do I want to go deeper of how I want to describe myself and how I actually feel? It can be a multitude of things. I'm a father and a husband, probably first and foremost and most importantly. And then, I have a professional career. I'm a lawyer. I'm a friend. I've thought a lot about lately just the value of friendship. I'm Jewish, so that's a big part of my identity. Not necessarily religiously, but culturally - community-wise. Myself, like many people, I'm many things and depending on the day and depending on how I feel, how I would describe myself could vary. That's a very vague answer. 

I'd like to add, too - I'm a son of parents. And I think I've been even more acutely aware of that presently with the health concerns of my parents and the aging process and mortality. And just really trying to value that relationship and be as present in that relationship with my parents even though they're up in Washington State. But that has been at the forefront, as well, in the past multiple months but even the last few years of what they've gone through. What can I be for them? How do I see myself as a son for them? And how I see myself as a parent to my kids versus my parents and how we are together. 

ACT: I want to be able to ask this in three words - what concerns you? - but it just doesn't work. I'm not really looking for you to say “racism” or some other large issue. What I want to know is what makes you sad as you make your way through this world? What breaks your heart, gets under your skin - whatever you want to use as the agitator phrase - and then what motivates you to do something about it? 

AH: I would say a lack of connection between people. There's many concerns I have that could be those big concerns, whether it's who's on the supreme court and federal judges and what is immigration policy? I could glom on to any of those, but I think my more global/national concern is the lack of connection between people who have divergent views or perceive each other as having divergent views. I have a concern about people being in their bubbles of thoughts - people with the similar thoughts, similar feelings, the same approaches to life and what they think is important - and then the other bubble where people might be very different things. And these two bubbles are bumping into each other, but there's not a true dialogue and connection and communication. And I think there's a big break down and that's what concerns me. 

Recently I was speaking to someone and they taught there is fear and there is love. And I think that when you're acting out of fear, things get closed off - it's really hard to love. You can't love if you're acting out of fear. If you want to say sides - if there's two sides - I think both are acting out of fear. How are they gonna be able to find the love for the other - if we call it the other - if they're closed off by so much fear? And I know, personally, I act out of fear, as well. I have to truly question myself, Am I doing things out of fear or am I doing them out of love? And it's a huge shift - individually, as individual communities, as a nation, as the world. What can I do? We can only do what we can do each day. And some of us, obviously, have a bigger platform and our voice is heard by more than other people.

When I'm interacting with kids and my wife and my siblings and my parents and my friends, am I acting out of fear or am I acting out of love? I think when you act out of love, it opens up a lot more doors. Then you can talk to folks who may feel differently, who believe differently, and that's where we can maybe get this connection back. Whether it's social media and you only go to certain social media and you ignore the other or you blast the other on your own social media - and I'm not in the social media world at all, really. But that would be my concern - is how do we get this connection back between people? Especially people who may not be that much different but perceive each other as very different. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other as individuals - you and person X, Y, or Z - as you make your way through life? 

AH: Well, to go on the vein that I was just on, I think there's a lot of dehumanizing of the others. And so, I think we might look at our individual circle and feel as though they mean a lot to us and that these other folks who we don't cross paths with - but have a lot of feelings and thoughts about - being dehumanized. I don't think that's healthy. And I think people are losing their view of humanity of others. On both sides. Neither side is fully 100% guilty and the other side is innocent.

So, how do we find the humanity in every person we interact with? And it's easy to sit here and say these things and to pontificate and to say this is how it should be done when you walk out your door in the morning or you log on or you're emailing or you're talking on the phone or you're interacting with folks at the store who are helping you. It's a lot bigger step to do. And we're all human. And we're all fallible. And we're all just trying to make our way. But how do we carve out to make our way? Going back to that love piece…

ACT: What does it mean for you to be one of those fallible humans and to be part of such a vast community with so many differing opinions and agendas? And why is it important to you? 

AH: You only live once, right? And you only have yourself and your brain and your body, which is completely distinct from everyone else's and unique. As a parent, my kids - seven and 10 years old - are gonna go off into the world and we'll always be connected, but I guess the most important thing is what am I going to leave with them? And what am I modeling to them? And I can sit there and talk with them and tell 'em how they should be, but really, they're gonna be watching me and I'm modeling it to them. Not when we're sitting there having me tell them how they should be and how I should be. But how they perceive me with others. How they perceive me with Lisa, my wife. How they perceive me when they're at my office and I'm meeting with clients and interacting with, you know, my co-workers. I've been melded by what I observed subconsciously - consciously and unconsciously - [in] my upbringing and so are they. So, that's where it's the most important is what are we passing on? Because life's temporary. And then, what are they gonna pass on to their kids or their friends or people they interact with on a day-to-day basis? So, I guess that's why it's important - what are we gonna leave in terms of our legacy? Whether it's one person that we live with or many, many people. Again, I don't have a platform - I don't need a platform - but others have very large platforms and what are they gonna leave? 

ACT: Do you have any thoughts on why there's such - in our culture, anyway - an aggressive push toward selfishness and greed and not really considering others and future generations? I guess that's a pretty wide generalization, but it seems like the things that are being encouraged aren't really considering one's role in it at all, they're just kind of considering one's role. And then, is your example for your daughters enough to change that? 

AH: Well, I guess, to take a step back and really try to take a global look - are we are all being driven by greed? Is that true? Is that a true assessment? I don't know. The whole advertising thing I can't ever really wrap my head around - I should buy this; I shouldn't buy that. And it can be so subliminal that it's disconcerting. But at the core, even if someone's doing something that's perceived as greedy or doing business practices that are unethical, what does that person want at their core? Probably similar to what anyone else wants: love, support, comfort, connection. I mean, I just think it's really easy to be judgmental. I have a Facebook account, but I don't know that I've checked it for years. I don't think I've added to it for years. But I have a concern when I do happen to look at Facebook and see how great everyone is doing - if we're putting all the political stuff aside that might be on there. It's kind of keeping up with the Jones'. Why [is] their family just perfect and happy and their kids are thriving? Okay, well, what's going on with my family? And I just think it can lead someone down a road of comparison and judgment as opposed to, Okay, what do I need? What does my family... what works for me and my community? 

And as the father of two girls who are not yet teenagers, but stuff I've read - podcasts, etc. I've heard - I have a deep concern about how teenage girls... are they gonna be comparing themselves and are they gonna be seeing these images and are they gonna... how will that affect them? And does that lead to depression and body image? Deep concerns there. But I can only control so much in terms of what my kids will be exposed to. And Lisa and I can only set so many parameters. But we can set an example and we can be there for them when they need us - if and when they need us - to feel comfortable coming to us if they have concerns, etc. So, where do you want to spend your time? How much time do you want to spend trying to make change outside of your family? 'Cause there's only so many hours and time in the day for these connections. And where do you want these connections to be? And I don't think there's any right answer. Maybe there's wrong answers, too. (Laughs) There are wrong answers. But we can only do so much. And you have to take care of yourself first. You can't take care of anyone if you're not taking care of yourself first. And I can sit here and say that - I'm often not very good at taking care of myself. You know? And so it's much harder to take care of someone else or allow someone to take care of you if you're not taking care of yourself. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention? And do you feel a responsibility to affect positive change? 

AH: Personally, I was instilled through my family of origin - my parents, especially; my grandparents - with a duty to the community. A duty to help others. A duty to volunteer. You said you didn't like the work privileged, but I think it would have been hard for me to fail with all the support that my family of origin gave me. And so, as cliché as it may sound, I feel like there's a duty to help others who may not have had the advantages that I was given - educationally, community-wise, assistance with going to school, having a teacher and an attorney as parents continually modeling volunteerism and helping those who are more disadvantaged. So, I think I have a strong duty. Now, I think I have to stop at times and say, Am I coming to try to help people out of fear or an obligation? Or am I coming truly through my heart because it's what I want to do? So I think I have to take a step back and be honest - Why am I doing this? And is it fully genuine? Because I don't want it to come across as condescending or demeaning by any stretch. Not that I don't want it to come across - I want it to be genuine. From my heart. I think then you create more connections and you'll be able to open up and operate out of that love versus the fear. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to ask me? 

AH: I mean, we could go down the list of questions and I could ask you. We talked for quite a while prior to turning on the recording. I guess I would pick one question - what is your biggest concern? And again, not just glomming onto one issue - either more specifically or more generally - and what can we do about it? 

ACT: As you can imagine, I try to have my own answers for these things. And then, of course, as you heard me say earlier, I have quite a lecture about not answering this one from the heart. And I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. What concerns me - what directly impacts me every day (and I'm sure this says a lot more about me than it says about whoever the perpetrator of the action is) - is, I guess what it's come down to, is a disregard in general for others. I encounter it in many different ways, but the ones that really jump out at me tend to involve traffic. But I can only assume that it goes deeper. A failure to use one's blinker seems to really get under my skin. Talking on the phone and driving. Talking on the phone through your ear buds in a public space louder than I'm having a conversation with the person I'm with. This is all pretty shallow sounding, but underneath it all, it just feels like a disregard for me - I'm the one feeling this, but also what bothers me about it is it's for everybody. And some people aren't as affected by it and I actually think that's kind of a shame. Because I think more people should be affected. More people should be standing up for the little injustices that happen. Because I believe that those are just glimpses of greater tragedies. If I'm not on your radar and I'm like you, then how not on your radar are the people that aren't like you at all? Or that aren't in your town? Or that aren't in your state? Or in your economic status? Or of your race, gender, sexual orientation? The atrocities of the world that really deeply do affect me when I think about them - that may not affect me on my day-to-day - begin with not using your blinker. And then my response to that concerns me. My level of frustration or hurt feelings or rage affect me. And that makes me wonder, too. So, I'm presented with an opportunity every single day to consider why I'm acting like such an idiot (laughs) - you know - while I'm sitting there wondering why this person's acting like an idiot. 

I don't know. Selfishness, I guess, is what really bums me out. I don't know if this is what we've got. I don't know if this is our one life. I don't know what's next. I don't know if we're energy and we just turn into more energy. But even if we do, why not be good energy? I've got a lot to say about that (laughs) but I think I've made my point.

AH: So - two parts here - what can you do about it? And say there's people who are greedy and selfish, as you describe, is that in your control? This is a little bit rhetorical, but is that in your control? Whether it is or not, what can you do about it in terms of making a change or making a shift? 

ACT: Like you with your daughters, I try to model behavior that I like to see. So, I tend to throw my hand up and wave to say thanks for letting me in or I try to use my signals or let people cross through the pedestrian way. I show up on time - if not early, to a fault. I be where I say I'm gonna be. I honor my word. I tell people I care about them. And when I'm faced with my own potential hypocrisies, I think about that. I don't know what else there is to do. But I think there has to be a larger... I think there has to be more. Because I don't know that we can just all try to model for the people that are paying attention. I think we're not doing that quick enough, so I'm scared. And I'm not sure what else to do. Phew. Nice question. 

Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing? 

AH: I think a lot of it comes back to mindfulness. And, again, it's easy to sit here and talk about all these things. If you were to come observe me and me quote/unquote modeling for my kids, you might say, It's nice what you said in your office, but... (laughs) what you're doing in reality may be different. But we can't change what's happened. It goes without saying, we can't change the past. But we can reflect. We can be mindful. We can be mindful for using our blinker. We can be mindful to wave a thank you when we cross a street and a car stopped for us. Even if they were supposed to stop and it's a crosswalk, we can still do that. Someone's helping us at a store or a restaurant, that's a human being helping us and working with us. And I think we're all working together. And we can perceive it however we want. Reality is really just how we perceive it. And so, how do we choose to perceive it? And that can become our reality. Again, easier said than done.

And we all have well-worn grooves in our brain that we go down. But those grooves that aren't helpful for our day-to-day functioning can be filled in and more grooves can be put in that's healthier and goes down the opening to love versus going down a groove that's based in fear. And being open to those who are different - I think you learn more from those who are different than you do from those who agree with and are the same as you and have very similar backgrounds and lives. And so, getting out of our comfort zones - which I think is getting harder and harder in the current state - to expose ourselves to those who are different and to be open to what they're saying and to deeply listen and to ask questions.

My grandfather would always say, Those who are interested are interesting. And so, you learn a lot more from asking questions than from saying how you think things are or should be. Ask questions. Don't assume. And when someone doesn't turn their blinker on or you're angry because someone cut you off, what's going on in their life? You know? Are they having a bad day? Are they having trouble at home? Having trouble at work? Health issues? There could be a reason. There usually is. I think at the core, the vast majority of people want to be good people and want to contribute and want to just have their basic needs met - including love. So, if we can all start trying to approach that little by little, from that approach more and more, then perhaps things will start shifting. And at a minimum, hopefully they'll start shifting for ourselves. We can only control what we can control. 

I met Ari through his wife, Lisa, at the end of the year show I had this past December. He and I only chatted for a moment, but Lisa mentioned she was going to refer Ari to the project then.

Erika Spaet

I originally met Erika through Donna Burklo sometime last summer. With neither of us having a proclivity for nonsense, we dove straight into the all the big topics during our first conversation. Due to my tumultuous upbringing in extreme religiosity, I tend to not have lots of room for it in my life these days. And, for better or worse, I tend to associate it with more potential for bad than good. So, going into our first meeting knowing that Erika was a pastor, I did my best to lay my judgments aside. The resulting conversation was one of my favorites since moving to Bend and by the end of it, I considered Erika a friend and an ally.

We heard each other as we spoke our individual truths and respected each other through our differences while discovering a path toward our common ground. We've met on a few occasions since then and I've felt an affinity for her each time. Because I thought sharing our story might be meaningful to others, I asked Erika to participate here. She accepted and, just as I hoped, she showed up in a real way for it. I'm delighted to share her interview with you here. Erika is a super smart and resilient woman with a huge capacity for empathy and compassion. And I'm proud to call her my friend. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

ES: My name's Erika Spaet. And I'm a Lutheran pastor living here in Bend. I'm a spouse and a person committed to community, to relationships. I'm a writer - I probably consider that my primary vocation. I coordinate, organize, curate the community of Storydwelling, which is an emerging spiritual community here in Bend that's born out of mainline denominations in Christianity - born out of Lutheranism and Methodism. That's exploring the edges and the fringes of what it means to be a faithful, hopeful, human. So, that's what I do with most of my time. 

ACT: What concerns you and what motivates you to do something about it? What I mean by that is what is it about this experience through life that breaks your heart or makes you mad as hell or makes you sad and what then do you do about that?

ES: Yeah. What's interesting is that what you're doing right now is a lot of what I do every day, which is to be curious and to harvest what are people's deepest longings and pressures and heartaches. And so I have a set of things that I can say because I'm pretty practiced in that and being able to offer it back. But I do want to be intentional. What is that for me right now? 

Maybe a thread through my whole life - a thread of heartache in my whole life - has been isolation. I see and have experienced isolation in terms of... well, growing up, for me, was experiencing hard things and not knowing how to talk about them and not necessarily feeling like I had places to talk about them. Experiencing addiction, incarceration in my family story and not knowing that that even was heartache. Not knowing how to articulate how I felt about that and not knowing who to articulate it to. So, that kind of isolation of -  This is really shitty and I don't know how to talk about it and I'm the only one experiencing it and no one cares. And so, as an adult, I look back on my life. I see it - probably starting when I was 18 or 20 - as, over and over, experiences of trying to deal with that. This is shitty. I have no one to talk to about it. Nobody cares. And I'm the only one. 

And now, when I have coffee with people, when I ask people about their story, I see and I hear a lot of that, too. And that breaks my heart. Because when I imagine an alternative future - a future different from the one that I feel like we are barreling toward - when I imagine that, it is the opposite of isolation. I would call it communion, which is kind of a religiousy word, but I don't think it has to be. It's the integration of all things: of all people and the planet. An interdependence. So, I guess, isolation breaks my heart. And in all its forms. And it breaks my heart for myself and the person that I've been. And it breaks my heart for people that I know who feel like they are the only one. 

Yeah. And I think that manifests in a lot if different ways. It manifests also in an inward-turning where people don't necessarily feel committed or responsible for the health or well-being or the thriving of someone else because we're all in it for ourselves. I'm not in it for someone else. So, I think it manifests in a way that breaks my heart, but it also manifests in a way that makes me really angry about the human condition. 

Is that kind of getting at all to your question?

ACT: Yeah, it's actually so refreshing because how you began that with saying you're well-versed in this and you have a number of things you can say to answer the question correctly. But you decided to answer it more genuinely. And that's what I've been seeking. And that's why I've tried to ask the question with more words than fewer because so many people want to say "racism" or they want  to say "sex-trafficking" or they want to say "homelessness". I care about those things, too. They affect me. But it's what's underneath all that stuff that really bothers me. For me, false sense of entitlement that comes from pop culture - that's really what bothers me. And those things actually lead to racism; they lead to sex-trafficking. But that, when I'm frustrated at somebody, is more to the core of it. 

ES: There is a difference between intellectually a thing that we understand is wrong or doesn't quite hang with how we would like to make sense of the world versus for me and my work and my whole life of trying to grapple with Who am I and why am I this way? It always has to come from this is actually how I'm wounded and so that's what makes my heart break in all these other situations. It has to start with me, I guess. It has to be about me first. And being aware of all my baggage and all the ways that I'm hurt. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other - individual to individual? As you make your way through the world, what do you mean to the people around you and what do they mean to you? 

ES: The first word that's coming up for me is our capacity to be co-conspirators. Collaborators, maybe? But co-conspirators kind of feels... we could potentially be in on something together. We are each potential allies of one another in the creation of whatever we imagine the world could be like and reality could be like. That we are each potential co-workers, colleagues in that. What do we mean to each other? That's a really big question. And I realize now that I've said that, not that we are each potentially useful to one another. Although (laughs), I think that is true, but not in a way of let me take what I can get from this person. It feels important to me to add this co-working or co-conspiring dimension to our relationship to one another beyond kindness, beyond compassion, beyond service. I can be a helpful person. I can be a kind person. I can understand that we are all, you know, in it together. But, for me, that framework only gets me so far. I need to see everyone as a potential necessary part of the creation of something else. I need to be able to depend on them. I need them to be able to depend on me.

So, yeah, I guess the image that's coming to mind is kind of like a lot of different ants creating the anthills or whatever - the tunnels - creating the livelihood and the future that they need to have happen, but doing it together. That feels important because so often I just think that kindness doesn't get us there. We need to see one another as vital. Not me as always the helper and you as the helpee. Not me as always the one having something to give and you being in the place where you have to receive, but as truly co-conspirators. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's what's coming to me at the moment. 

I am in a lot of circles - religious circles - where the impulse is to help and to be kind and to be compassionate, so I'm responding to my context. In which that what it has meant to be Christian or to be a religious person is to be kind and of service. And I just feel really strongly about not eliminating that - that impulse is good, I think - to have peace and kindness in the world. Kindness fits in very well to, again, this future that we are barreling toward - of extinction of humanity and the death of the planet. I think those things will happen - not in our lifetime, but... I feel a responsibility and I actually can't help but hope and imagine a different reality - for right now and for the future. So, I feel this desire to move beyond a kindness paradigm and toward a like, I need all of these people. I need them. 

ACT: So what does it mean to you, then, to be part of community if we all are co-conspirators? To be part of this with so many people with so many different agendas, so many different ideas, so many definitions, so many... so many differences.

ES: Well, I'd say first on a macro kind of level, thinking about all the people and all the things, I do believe - and maybe it's the only thing I would say that I really believe (I don't use that word lightly) - is that we are wired to live and seek life and to thrive and to always be pursuing that and to be resilient when the world gets in the way of our thriving. I think we see examples of individuals and communities, despite everything, being resilient. I think evolution is a gorgeous example of life wants to live and it's gonna figure out whatever it has to do in order for that to happen. So, on a macro level, I would say to be alive right now is to be in community or communion and to seek life and to also seek it for everything else. That's really vague and, like, meta. 

I think for people who are in the social justice world or faith communities or people who... I think we need to deal with the nitty gritty. We can't just be thinking about all things living in peace with one another one day. We need to think really locally and really tangibly about what does communion look like in my neighborhood at this moment? Like, what could we actually do? What is the most pressing thing right now? So, I think to be in community in a really physical, tangible way is to know one another so we know even what does stand in the way of our thriving. Us, specifically, right now. And that's pretty political, I think. And that's local politics and that's local organizing.

I have both an imagination for what it could mean really vaguely, like in the world of my dreams, but really, I would say for me right now, it feels more important to say, for example, folks who move to Central Oregon fleeing violence in Central and South America - what stands in the way of thriving? Recognizing that is also standing in the way of my own thriving. We are co-conspirators. So, we know that the asylum-seeking process is super expensive and super difficult and there's so many things that stand in the way. But that feels like something that we could actually begin to research and to develop language around and maybe even seek solutions to. So, for me, community transforms us. It says, I love you so much that we can't stay the same because things aren't the way that they should be. And it also seeks really tangible ways of reducing barriers to thriving. Calling out the things that are killing us. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention or a responsibility to affect positive change? 

ES: I knew you were gonna ask this question 'cause I saw the questions on the website and I've been thinking about that one more specifically. That while there's a part of me that is formed in... I'll just give a little callout to the Lutheran tradition, which was cultivated in a time where you were only worth anything if you were a priest or part of the aristocracy or like a king. So Martin Luther came around and said like, No, you are a parent changing your kids poopy diaper. That is a vocation. Nobody had ever thought of the mundane stuff as having value like that. He said, No, that's a vocation just like being a priest is a vocation. So, when I think about purpose, there is a part of me that loves that - that being a friend, being a good, thoughtful friend is a part of my vocation.

On the other hand, I have started to feel like... What's my purpose in life? has started to feel a little individualistic. So, not to say it's not a good question 'cause I think that it is, but me pursuing my purpose in life feels like... it just doesn't feel right any more. I think I'm constantly trying to think of ways that I can fit in to what I was talking about - that kind of current toward thriving. And in religious speak I would talk about that like God is already doing something. The spirit is already in motion. And scientifically, I think we can see that, too. In the adaptation that things want to live. How can I simply be a part of that? What's the best way? What can I do reasonably well to be a part of that right now? And not stand in the way of it? So, that feels different from my pursuit of purpose. You know? I used to want to be Katie Couric. That feels like a pursuit of purpose. And now I'm just like, How do I reasonably just participate in what I already feel like is rumbling? So, yeah, living with intent to do that. I think a lot of that comes down to being a person who listens more than sets goals. 

ACT: Great. Yeah, I keep the question because it means so many different things to so many different people. I've talked about this in some other interviews, but the phrase - the three words - sense of purpose, for me, are pretty loaded from my previous religious background. So I've added the rephrasing to potentially make people who don't have that association more comfortable, but I'm learning as the process continues that not everybody has a religious connotation to those words. 

Just a quick response to what you said, it would be interesting to hear what Katie Couric would think hers was. Right? Because it probably isn't journalism for her. Even though so many of us see that as her role. Hers might be caring for her dog. Not to put words in Katie's mouth. I think it's really fascinating how we all interpret that differently. 

Do you want to ask me anything?

ES: Well, now I'm curious - what does sense of purpose mean for you? For me, I wouldn't say that it necessarily has a religious connotation, but what does that mean for you? 

ACT: The way that I tend to talk about this typically involves a lot of unknowns. So, I have compulsions, feelings, gut-stirrings that I find very difficult to name. I also have a difficult time fully understanding why I validate and respect those. I think these are things that are quite difficult to label. But I like mine very much. They feel - whatever that means - right or true or worthwhile, so then I pursue them. I guess I'm calling whatever those things are my sense of purpose. Because when I do them I feel better. Even if I potentially feel worse because it's very challenging, but I feel in line. And I don't know with what. I think it's an extremely difficult concept to articulate. Especially with how many different sets of beliefs there are or non-beliefs or the fact that I think questions are much more valuable than answers. There's so much to it that I find difficult to talk about. 

I’ll just go down this rabbit hole. There wasn't a number of things in my life that happened to encourage me to become a photographer. I didn't come from a long line of them. I didn't have a mentor. I wasn't even really encouraged to pursue it. I wanted to. I really don't know why. I was also very encouraged to go to college, so I went to college and then I immediately went to photo school. And then that felt like the thing to do. And then at photo school it felt like the thing to do to go to photojournalism school. And then at photojournalism school it felt like the thing to do to pursue a career in asking people questions. And that led me to a project called I Heart Strangers. And then led me to a period of introspection and tail-between-my-legs self-doubt and wounding and to a period of drought until I came out to Bend and was walking in the woods with my dog and the idea for A Community Thread just landed on my shoulder. I don't know. I call all of it or it feels like a purpose, but it's also my purpose to have more patience with my partner and to disagree with the norm and to stand in opposition to things that aren't seemingly right to me. 

I rarely ask people what they do. I don't really care so much, but I do care about how you are. And I very much care about how I am. And at my best, (laughs) I'm looking at that often and at my worst, I'm not living up to who I think I should be. And then dealing with the feelings that come along with not living up to my standard. I don't know. I put a lot of value and a lot of importance on my standard because it seems to be a better one than most of the ones that I see around, but it's very challenging to live up to. But that's the interesting part about life is trying to be.... good? I don't know what that means, but trying to do it well. 

ES: It seems like the word that you used before, with intention - that's it. Right? None of us will be good all the time. And I dare say no one is living up to the standards that they have set for themselves or the expectations that they have for themselves. And maybe that's why I'm trying to live a life in which I'm not setting them. But doing so with intention. Constantly reflecting on is the way that I'm living and the way that I'm relating, does that match how I would want it all to be? Does that have integrity? That feels like a purpose and I think I would describe it as a practice. 

ACT: Do you have anything that you'd like to say in closing? 

ES: I think that the questions that you're asking and the work that you're doing are like the stuff - are it - and certainly fall into how I imagine the world that I would want to live in. Has integrity, maybe, is a better way of saying that. And, as someone who is having conversations like this a lot, there are a lot of people longing for them. And, I think, having them. And then my curiosity is Okay, then what? So maybe I find myself living in the place of then what? Now and not yet. 

ACT: Well, so, then what? What are you imagining when you say that? 

ES: Maybe I'll double back a little bit and say that the conversations are the point in a lot of ways. It's already the thing. Small pieces of the whole should reflect the whole. There's a scientific word for that that I forget. So, those small conversations - they are already a reflection of that. But then what? I find for myself when I observe in other people and in community a hesitancy to engage in conflict and to take risk and to keep at the forefront of our hearts and our minds like what is actually at stake. There is a lot at stake. So we must continually move not away from conversation, but our conversations have to bear some fruit. My imagination only extends to organizing, to social change. And I think that there is a more cosmic piece. At the end of the day the and then what? will always be limited. So, I think I'm caught in that. Of wanting to take risks, wanting to take action, and at the end of the day, I know it's gonna be flawed and really limited and I trust that things will unfold and it's not up to me. So, there's a tension there for me. 

I originally met Erika through Donna Burklo sometime last summer. With neither of us having a proclivity for nonsense, we dove straight into the all the big topics during our first conversation. Due to my tumultuous upbringing in extreme religiosity, I tend to not have lots of room for it in my life these days.

Tiffani Barnum-Hess

Ian Carrick referred Tiffani to participate here after having met her at an ecstatic dance event. I’ve yet to personally experience ecstatic dance in any kind of structured setting, but I can say I have had some really wonderful times while dancing and have come away from them with a feeling that could probably best be described as ecstatic. Tiffani is now the third participant of this project who has mentioned ecstatic dance with great praise, so I might just have to try it one of these days. Anyway, it was so wonderful to meet Tiffani. We had a very warm and sincere conversation and I am so happy to be able to share it with you here. She and her dog, Banjo, and cat , Wiggin, all made me feel very welcome in their home. I spotted Tiffani out and about in town a couple of weeks after our interview and walked up to her to say hello. It warms my heart to recognize a new friend after having newly met and I always wonder how many times we might have unknowingly crossed paths previously.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

TBH: I'm a lot of things. My name's Tiffani Barnum-Hess. And I'm a dancer. I'm a coach. I'm a healer. I'm unapologetically - these days - me, which has been a journey and is continuing to be a journey and a process of just rediscovering who I am. And moving to Bend two years ago has been a huge part of that. Leaving my corporate job with no plan and then moving to this town and having a period of total isolation - not knowing anyone - and then, really, just finding dance, finding community, letting go of all these old stories about how life should be, what it means to be married, what it means to work, you know, the achievement (laughs) journey of college, marriage, job, kids, house - really just clearing all that away to really figure out who I am. And really just embodying love as much as possible - for myself even when I suck (laughs) and for everyone else even when it feels like they suck. And finding that compassion and trying to hold that in all interactions. 

I mean, you talk to people a lot. I've probably coached thousands of students in my time. And I talk to people every where I go. People come up to me - grocery store, I could be on top of a mountain - and so people come and share their stories with me and I feel like I attract that. And so, I feel like part of who I am is to shine my light as much as possible so that hopefully others can do that, too. 

ACT: Did you start to take that course later in life or have you always felt that light and wanted to be that for everybody?

TBH: I feel like it kinda was always there. I grew up with a lot of chaos and was always handling the things - helping at even a very young age - and I didn't really know what it meant to shine light in that way. It was just like, There's something happening - somebody needs to take care of it. The adults aren't doing it. I guess I'll do it. And then it was probably... when I was 15 I actually moved away from home - I was raised by my grandparents and then went to live with my great aunt and uncle 'cause I wasn't doing well and I knew I had to leave or I might not exist - and started to find the light. 'Cause growing up in a lot of darkness and just being seen for who I was, being seen for some value that I could provide to the world outside of just trying to survive. Since then is probably when it sparked that kind of first awakening, I guess, if that's what we call that (laughs). Whether it was a spiritual awakening or not, at 15 it was just a very strong call to go and do something and really get there - wherever there was.

That's a lot of what my private coaching is - or has evolved to - is a more spiritual-based - not in any prescribed way - but in a more holistic way. And then it's through that lens that I try to get into my alignment and figure out what feels good and take action from there instead of reacting all the time like I feel so many of us do in traffic (laughs) - like we were talking about. When you're angry or upset, you're gonna react to things in a very different way than if... continually coming back to I am a being. I'm a spiritual being. So is everyone else. Whatever beliefs are, we are these beings and love or fear is what we can do, I'm gonna try and choose love as much as possible. And when fear comes up, hold it, recognize it, not push it away, and love it, too, until I can get back to that state. 

ACT: I've been asking a few different version of these questions and through the course of the project, I've come to decide - for now, this could change - that while the point of this, in some capacity, is to put out some positive news into the world, I don't think it all has to be all bright and shiny and I'm beginning to realize that some of our pain is what we have in common and what we do with that pain. So, in that vein, what is it about this life or society or how we get along or the world that concerns you or what makes you sad or breaks your heart? But what motivates you to do something about it, too? 

TBH: Hmmm, I think the things that break my heart and just, you know, right to the gut are just when I see people struggling with the pain. I mean, I've certainly been there. And I'm not happy shiny all the time, in fact. Pretty realistic (laughs) when it comes to, yeah, sometimes things suck. Doesn't mean I'm any less valuable or worthy than anyone else and I think that's been my, Man! Things can really be shitty! I can also be really shitty. I'm married and there's stuff that happens. And so what breaks my heart is when people don't actually believe that there's more or that they're worthy. And watching people just kind of struggle and spiral in that pain without allowing themselves to break open. Like, there's heart breaking, but heart breaking open. I feel like the cracks are where the light gets in. There's a quote about that and I feel like that's true.

And in my moments of heartbreak, if I'm paying attention, if I allow it to just break me wide open, then that's where the light is. And so, that motivates me and the work that I do from the students I work with on sometimes a more surface level, but also my clients with a more deep, This is what I want to do. I want to change my life. Or even at dance, you know, it's all about finding out how to do your own dance and what that means. And how to allow and have compassion for others who are doing that, too, even if you might not agree or whatever they're doing is triggering what we're doing or whatever - it's all part of the journey and we're in it together. And I think where we get stuck - and I know I am guilty of this - is the judgment around it.

Judgment of self is usually what's at the core of it. Where you're like, What's that guy doing in the car? Why did he cut me off? And we've all cut people off 'cause we're like, Shoot, I gotta get over here! In the moment when it feels like something's being done to us, I mean, it's really not. That's not always where we want to go. Sometimes we really want to be angry (laughs) and feel really good about that. And that's beautiful, too. But also just being mindful of like, Oh, this is happening for me. For me. Not to me. At least that's my perspective. It's always happening for me. Do I want to engage with that or do I just want to be angry about it today? This week? I usually like to think that I get past things a little faster, but you know, it doesn't always work that way (laughs). 

ACT: What do we mean to each other on an individual to individual basis? 

TBH: Hmmmm. I think it's such a beautiful opportunity to connect in such a specific way. You know, we run into people all the time, casually or our friends and family, but this is really cool. I felt really honored when Ian had referred me to you to do this because I love talking to people even though I'm very much an introverted person. Just the connection that we can make is like there's this human here and we're having this moment. You've met my dog. We're now connected. My cat might drool on you at some point. And I feel really honored to invite people into my home, which I don't do as much as I used to because I just have small space.

And so I think this is a moment in time where we can take from it what makes sense and go off onto our next step, whether we never speak again or not. Something my grandfather used to say all the time is that we're made up of all the people that we've ever met. Whether just a quick, Hey cashier, here's my money or deeper relationships - however short or long they are - and I find that to be true. I'll be thinking about this probably for the rest of my life, maybe not every day. But the little impacts and seeds that we plant in our connections and interactions, I think, is what this is all about. 

ACT: What does it mean to you to be part of community in this life - whatever it is - with all these different people and all these different opinions?

TBH: We're always in community whether we want to engage in it or not. I mean, I don't believe we're meant to live very isolated even though that's kind of what a lot of our society has created - is this separation - and fed into that separation wound that we aren't connected. I truly believe that we all are. I am still connected to folks that I met 20 years ago that I might talk to once a year, but they're still part of my community. And having been in Bend for the last couple years, with the kind of community I've created here physically, it's been a really different experience. My family, growing up, it was a lot of like, For the family even when things are hard. And even when you're mad, you still come together to do the work or have the celebration. There's something really beautiful about that. To be able to come together for whatever's being called for - whether it's support of a particular person or a cause or to celebrate.

I mean, dance every week is that; it's a celebration of everyone in that room. And it's not always the same people; we have new people coming in and out all the time. And it's a container for anyone - it's not always for everyone, but it's for anyone - to show up and be exactly who they are. And to be held and seen. It's not all about happiness. Ecstatic dance, I think sometimes people feel like it's got to be joyful all the time, but I've cried my face off - just whatever had come up and I'm there. And so I think community is about that. About people coming together despite differences. And because of differences. I don't always agree with what all these folks that I work with so closely and hang out so closely are doing or saying, but I still care about them and can still hold them in compassion. Without judgment, most of the time (laughs). And knowing that any time I feel judgment, there's something here (points to self) that wants to be examined, that I'm probably judging. And so, community's all about support and also the mirroring and the healing that we can do since I think we really are all connected - more than we'd like to believe. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or some sort of compulsion to live with intention? 

TBH: I do. I don't know exactly what that is all the time, but I feel like that was present as a child. It was like, There's something here that I'm supposed to do. And I think it's a question I've started asking almost daily, like, What am I being called to do today? How may I be in service of the highest good today? Sometimes that answer is to take a bath and stay home. Sometimes that answer is go do this thing. Every once in a while it's like go to this random place that you would never go and show up and run into somebody you didn't know you were gonna run into and have this beautiful connection.

I don't know if there's a specific purpose other than just showing up as whoever I am on any given day and kind of surrendering a little bit to the universe or whatever cosmic flying spaghetti monster is controlling things or not. But just asking the question and following what feels true. I've really tried to fine-tune that sense of - is this in align... does this fill the call? Or is it from a place of love versus obligation? And I've learned that if I'm doing things because I feel like I have to or there's someone telling me that I should, then it's... yeah I just feel like it's an obligation. There's a difference there. And that's heavy and it doesn't feel good to me. And it rarely feels good to the person that I'm trying to do it for or with or whatever. And so I think that purpose is to just show up in my full self (laughs) - whatever that looks like. 

ACT: That's great. It seems like the busyness that seems to be so popular these days is potentially getting in the way of people being their best self. I wonder sometimes if people are so sure of their purpose that they're willing to sacrifice all of that time spent exploring what it might be. 

TBH: Yeah. I agree with that. I've been there. I'm so busy. I don't have time to blah, blah, blah - text my mom or whatever. It's a story we tell, I think, to distract from the deeper stuff - whatever that is - the emotional work or connection, which can be really scary 'cause there's also sometimes hurt and pain and heartbreak that's come from that for probably all of us. But the busyness is really, I think, a story we like to tell to feel like we're doing something when I feel like the greater purpose is being more than doing. But doing makes us feel productive and accomplished. 

ACT: Somebody asked me a few interviews ago and I really appreciated it - it was a question I was contemplating inserting - what makes you feel alive? 

TBH: I don't know if there's anything specific. Certainly, for me, being in service of some way - and I don't mean sacrificing my own needs and desires to serve others or a greater purpose or whatever - but that sense that I've done exactly... whatever cosmic plan is happening, that I showed up and I did it. And I think an example of this, as we're cleaning the house and doing stuff this weekend, I had this call to go clean up the back yard and picking up poop, which I never want to do. It's the last thing I ever want to do. But I was like, Great, we'll go do it. And Adam never usually does that stuff with me, but he was out there and we were chatting and all of a sudden, this car pulls up and a guy jumps out and says, Call 9-1-1! And he had a woman in the car who was unresponsive. He thought she'd maybe had a seizure and they were on their way to the hospital, but she had become unresponsive, so he saw us just standing in our yard, pulled over.

And the aliveness that comes from that... yes, I was helpful, I did a good thing. I'm also well-trained in crisis and things like that so he couldn't have picked a better couple to be standing outside picking up poop (laughs) to pull over and say, Can you help? We did the thing and they went off to the hospital. I think it's kind of, for me, being alive is being present. I could have stayed in the house and watched more TV or a thousand other things, but to be really present and tuned-in to, I don't know, I'm gonna follow this nudge. The presence and clearing away the clutter and the stories and the shoulds and the supposed to's to just say, Yup, this is what I'm doing today and being okay with changing the plan, too. 

ACT: Do you have anything you'd like to ask me?

TBH: It's kinda funny, I'm usually doing a lot of the question-asking with the coaching. So, it's nice to have that switch on occasion (laughs). I'm curious what your takeaways have been for you - just your own personal takeaway. 

ACT: It changes. Sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it feels lonesome. To undertake a project like this alone comes with a lot of alone time and a lot of introspection, right, which can become tiresome. And I can lose sight of lots of things. Sometimes I'm not really sure what I'm doing. Or why. Or for who. So, it means all of those things. Which means, beyond that, resilience and my own strength and what I can tolerate and put up with in hopes that even though I can't always understand what it might be, there's some reason for this or some reward. Whatever that means.

And it is building the case for human decency. And so, what I hope is that that will become more and more obvious to people that come across the project. For other people that get down or for other people that are frustrated or for other people that have a hard time seeing past the fog - that we all, I think, do care. And I don't know what it is that gets in the way of that so often, but this definitely helps me understand that we all share a general concern for one another or for our existence as a species or insert some good thing. And depending on the day, you know, that's more or less accessible to me. 

TBH: Yeah, I would agree. I think at the end of the day everyone has a level of care about the world and I think some of us get really lost or get used to hiding behind or we're all, really, these beings with a lot of wounds and stories from our childhood or past lives or whatever - if that's something you believe in - and we carry those forward. And hurt people hurt. When we feel scared or rejected or hurt, we don't often react very well to other things. And some people never stop to take the deeper look and just continue to react and say, Well, you did this to me. And I'm a victim and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can take a look at Trump - he's a severely wounded little boy who's never learned or never been told - probably by many people, given his status - Man, I'm sorry that you're just such a hurt little kid. And it's a choice. We always have a choice. 

ACT: Yeah, I've been thinking about something a lot lately about the worst of humanity's behaviors. If the perpetrators of those… if doing that thing resonates with them - if it feels in line with them. If overt acts of racism or sex trafficking or murder - all the things that we tend to hear quite a lot about - it seems to me like it's some kind of a farce. It's definitely gone too far. It can't feel good. I'm kind of exploring what it means to that person and why they do it. Because I don't know that it can feel good. And then why do we do it? If I could really tackle the issue, that's what I would be interested to learn. Why are you so stuck and committed to this idea of hate when it can't make you feel good?

TBH: Yeah. I think a lot of us don't know what feeling good actually means. So there's this distorted perception of what that is. Usually it's not good in that true sense, but in that maybe you feel more powerful or better than or whatever. That's kind of a theory I've been playing with. Not that I've done any heinous crimes, but even when I'm a total jerk to my husband I'm like, God, what was I thinking? That felt terrible. In the moment it's like, Yeah! And then you're like, Oh, no (laughs). And we've all done and said things, but in certainly the more extreme cases, where that comes from. Yeah. 

ACT: Do you have anything to say in closing?

TBH: I mean, this is great. I really love this idea and the project and when I learned about it, I got on there and started reading and listening - even folks that I know fairly well and definitely folks I didn't know. As someone who does similar things, even though I'm talking to students most of my day... I'm also asking those questions from a place of curiosity because it's not often that we get to without seeming nosy or judgy or whatever. So I really appreciate what you're doing as a whole in the community and curious to see what comes from this. I think it's such a cool experience. I mean it, I feel really honored to be part of this with you for whatever this will do. I'm glad to have made this connection and see what else might come from it. 

Ian Carrick referred Tiffani to participate here after having met her at an ecstatic dance event. I've yet to personally experience ecstatic dance in any kind of structured setting, but I can say I have had some really wonderful times while dancing and have come away from them with a feeling that could probably best be described as ecstatic.

Marcus LeGrand

Tim Hellman referred Marcus to this project after I had already spent some time with Marcus as he and Tim and I have been getting together to play some basketball. I met Tim through this process and I’m so grateful for our growing friendship. I’m also so grateful that he’s been willing to share his other friends with me as that camaraderie has contributed to this year’s positive start. It’s often the case that I don’t know much, if anything, about these folks before I interview them, so the dynamic changes a little bit when I do know them. It’s really fun to sit down and formalize a conversation with an acquaintance or a friend. My experiences with Marcus so far all have shown me his kindness and encouragement and what I would consider a strong tendency toward positivity. I’m happy to have made a new friend in Marcus and I’m delighted to introduce him to you here.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

ML: Who am I? Let me see. Son to Gale. Product of Grandma Ruby. Dad of two wonderful kids, Julian and Quinn. Husband to Erin. Brother to my sister, Acey. Pretty much encapsulates who I am. I'm basically a servant or, I don't know, just a part of their lives and hopefully I can help guide 'em. That's pretty much who I am in a nutshell, I guess. 

ACT: What concerns you? When you think about the world and where things are at, what makes you sad? But then what motivates you to do something about it? 

ML: That's a loaded one. That's a heavy one, dude. It's early.

What concerns me is that ultimately, I would love to see every person get their just due in the sense of whatever they want their life to be, they get the true satisfaction of whatever that is. I can't frame it for 'em. All I can do is just hope everybody gets that opportunity to have joy/happiness while they're here. But also at the same time, if they're living the life they wanna live, are they having fun doing it? That they're gonna be able to get to do... have that full, whatever they imagined that their life was gonna be like - that's what concerns me because as I'm getting older I'm starting to think about those things. I've had a fruitful life. Is it gonna continue to be fruitful? Is something else gonna happen? What's my journey? That concerns me. 

But what scares me right now- truly scares me - is that a lot of people are gonna sacrifice their lives for nothing because somebody who's crazy is gonna do something insane and just mess up the democracy for everybody else. And I'm not picking at one person. I'm not trying to say it politically. That's not what I'm saying. It's just something in my heart fears something's gonna happen. And my kids aren't gonna get to have a long, fruitful life because somebody else made a decision for 'em. You know? That's what scares me. Because ultimately, all I want to be able to do is be able to hold my grandkids - that's my ultimate thing. If I can't get to that point, I think that's gonna hurt a lot. I think about those things sometimes. 

ACT: What do we mean to each other - each person to each person - out in the world as we go about our lives? 

ML: I think, basically, everybody has a story. And I think what we mean to one another is if you can get something positive from your interaction or learn something about yourself or even the other person, I think that's what me mean to each other. You have something endearing that I know I need and I have something you need. And hopefully if we can communicate and talk and be peaceful about it, we all can learn something. Sometimes it comes through hate. Sometimes it comes through selfishness. Sometimes it comes through many a things. I don't know. But ultimately, I think we have to intertwine with one another just to get a feel for what we want our society or our community to be. 

ACT: What does it mean to you to be part of community and what does community mean to you? 

ML: Man, community, to me, is everybody... we're all like little ants, I think, sometimes. I always think of it as an anthill where everybody's working to do their part. And that's what I think community is. And everything is illustrated in that manner. Everything builds or feeds off those things. I love that. Even for things around us - every element, molecule, whatever basically helps society be that much stronger. If it's from the birds or it's from worms or if it's from ants or if it's from just human beings or whatever - we're all part of the whole cycle of it. 

Society means that we gotta work together to continue to make sure that that flourishes. And if we don't do that, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice. Ultimately I think this - for a society to be successful, everybody must be on the same page to a certain extent. They may not always agree with it, but they gotta know that they're contributing or feel that they are contributing. And also to be told sometimes, Hey, you know what, you're not holding your weight. And don't be offended when somebody says it. Just be understanding of why we're saying it. We're all pulling to the same direction. 

ACT: Do you have any ideas on how to get people on that same page when it seems to me there's a bunch of people who aren't necessarily...?

ML: I think we can come together if everybody just has understanding that their obligation to the community is that they gotta help out. The way we can educate 'em, too, in our school systems. Our school systems need to change and I think in so many ways. Brick and mortar - yes, it's needed in some capacities. But I think experimental learning helps. Also homeschooling helps because you can educate from different perspectives. But, ultimately, our education system needs to change in the sense that people need to know what the common issues are within a society. If we all know what they are and we're trying to all find ways to help, then everybody wins.

Think about if you're educated, I'm educated, if the next person is educated on what's truly going on and not lie and be very transparent in what that is, then here's what happens. Everybody goes, Okay, I understand it because I was taught that. This is how this manages this. This works with that. You might not like how it works, but at least you know how the systems work. And then if everybody knows how those systems work they can make one of two decisions: I'm gonna help it or I'm not. There's no really in between. You can't go back and forth. You figure out I'm gonna help or I'm not gonna help. And then you make decisions based on that. 

I think there's a lot of ways we can do it. We need to really, in a sense, organize how we distribute information. Lot of times, I think we just kinda throw out what we think is best for the com[munity] and we forget about the people and the individuals who are actually looking for that information. Sometimes I think we don't talk to everyone to get their opinion. I'm not saying it's needed sometimes, but sometimes... why would you want to write a story about this unless you really got all the information necessary? You know?

As much as we say we don't have segregation, everything's very segregated. And we don't disseminate information correctly to all facets. Think about it. I'm African American or black - whatever you want to call it - but I might not be able to relate to Indian, Hispanic, Anglo-Saxon, whatever you want to say. We are all gonna communicate and we're different because we're raised in different regions and we think differently. But all those people need to be in the decision-making process. 

- Hey, here's your community. We're all the same bigger community, but you're in pockets. Here's what we're talking about at City Council. What do you guys think? 

- We didn't like it. We don't like this because it hurts us here, here, and here. 

- Hey, wow, thank you. We appreciate the information. Hey, African Americans, what are you guys doing? 

- This is the issues we've been having in our community. Here's what we're trying to build. We don't feel that this legislation is gonna help us. 

Alright, cool. But at least we all came together and harmoniously did it. But that's not how it's made. Everything's all factioned off. You get the information - everything's rationed. Trickle-down doesn't work because everybody's not gonna disseminate information because people feel threatened. All we have to do is take a step back and look and say, Hey, if we're gonna make an action or create something, how about asking somebody in that community how they feel about it before we just willy-nilly just let stuff roll off? 

ACT: Do you feel represented well or respected? 

ML: Represented and respected are two different things in my mind. I think I'm represented in the sense that I was taught a long time ago to know how to represent myself and my culture. Be strong about it. Understand what it means to our community. And continue to keep fighting the good fight for it. I’m respected because I don't hide behind who I'm not. I know I'm a black man. I know that. Hey, it's not gonna change. However, I'm still a person. And I'm gonna be respected as a person just like you wanna be respected as a person.

Yes, I see color. I'm not gonna sit here and say I don't. But guess what - I don't think of you as a color; I think of you as a human being. And if I get a vibe from you that you are not coming across as a good human being, guess what - we have a[n] issue. Bottom line. That's it. I could care less what you do in the privacy of your home, but when we're together and we're communicating and trying to get things solved, guess what - my voice is just as strong as yours. And I'm not asking for anything else. Okay? That's all I care about. Being respected is basically you gotta make people understand - Hey, you know what - I hear you. I respect what you're saying. But here's my opinion. Now, in terms of a responsibility behind all that, I can't be a hypocrite and try to say this is what I want. I gotta continue to stand fast for who I am and what I've been raised to do.  

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose or you could say a compulsion to live with intention?

ML: Yes. Oh, every day. Because I know the sacrifices I have to make helps my two kids be that much better in this world. I represent my family. I feel I have to. I want family's name to continue forever. You know, because that's how most people remember you. Historically, what did your family do? What was their legacy? What happened? What did they contribute to this society? And that's how everybody remembers you. That's my purpose - make sure the family name is respected, like you asked. But at the same time, I have a sense of purpose for, like I said, my two kids, my wife, my sister, my mom, people in general. I will help you - if you want the help. But only thing I'm trying to give you is just information. I've dealt with stuff. I'm not trying to make you think a different way. I'm just telling you through my experience, here's what I saw. You can take it. My purpose is to help people just try to be better. You know? Whatever that is in their mind. I'm serious. Every day I wake up and I'm thinking, What can I help with? What can I do to make things better? I have to. 

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything?

ML: So, through this journey or whatever you want to call it - however you want to label it - what's the most gratifying part of doing all this?

ACT: That's a nice question. The most gratifying part is showing up at whatever location it is to meet with whoever it's gonna be and sitting down across from somebody and feeling a sense of equality with that person. It doesn't matter if they're the former CEO of Bend Research or whatever it is that they do. Whatever levels of success in their life just don't matter. I get to set across from somebody - like this - and just have a human to human experience. I think that's the greatest reward is just that I get to do this. I get to meet people and I get to ask them questions that you don't get asked grabbing a cup of coffee or going out to lunch. 

It's a process of my building a case for human decency. And every time I meet with somebody, I feel more confirmation that we've got more going for us than we have going against us. It's easy for me to get distracted by the news or by the state of the world or by the violence, but it's so nice to just sit across from somebody, look them in the eye, and have that personal conversation. That's the most gratifying. 

ML: I don't think we do that enough anymore. I think sometimes when I look at older movies and stuff, the one thing that made 'em great was the dialogue - the conversations, just everyday repartee, back and forth, whatever you want to call it. People don't do that anymore. That's the thing, sometimes that's how we get ideas and you'll be able to cultivate other things that can happen. And I think as we learn to do that again... as much as I love technology, I hate it to a certain extent because I think we get away from traditions that a lot of people take for granted nowadays. I'm always amazed when I talk to my students that they don't know about certain pieces of information because stuff isn't disseminated the way it was disseminated in our generation. That's why I say I wake up with a purpose - I gotta get that information out there. Some basic things still need to be told and said. 

ACT: You have anything you want to say in closing?

ML: I'm glad you're doing this because people make this country or this society better. The more people realize who they have around them and are all on kinda the same page, doing the same thing or fighting the good fight every single day, it makes me feel good knowing I think my kids are gonna be alright. You know? Because there is some humanity out there and I think sometimes we overlook it. But I feel good about it, though, like I said. I really do. 

Tim Hellman referred Marcus to this project. I had already spent some time with Marcus as he and Tim and I have been getting together to play some basketball. I met Tim through this process and I'm so grateful for our growing friendship.

Leslie Blair Graham

Mandy Butera referred me to Leslie and then I ended up meeting her soon after at an event that Mandy put on. I love to meet people for the first time when I show up for our interview, so we kept that initial encounter brief. A few days later, I met up with Leslie at her studio space and we dove into conversation like we were old friends. We must have recognized each other’s sincerity because our conversation carried an authentic and vulnerable tone. I easily could have chatted with her for the rest of the day. I’m happy to introduce you to Leslie here and I hope you have the great pleasure of meeting her in person. Until then, this will have to suffice. 

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

LBG: I'm a maker, more than anything. I'm an aspiring writer. It's interesting, I guess, a feminist or identifying as a woman in this climate has been more at the forefront - really recognizing that. A wife. A step-mom. I don't know. I'm all kinds of things. I think it changes. 

ACT: You said maker first. What does that mean to you? 

LBG: So, you're sitting in the maker space (laughs). It's like painting or sewing or - and I haven't taken lessons on any of it. If I'm into something it's like, Oh, let's tie some yarn to a stick and hang it on the wall. What feels fun at that moment. The ability to be able to create something, I think is so important. Especially - we were just talking about technology - using your hands, using your mind, walking away from the phone - that is what keeps me sane. So, that's part of what I would consider being a maker. 

ACT: The question that I keep trying to ask is what concerns you and what motivates you to do something about it? But I'm gonna add some clarification to it. While the goal of the project, of course, is to highlight our commonality and put out some positive news, I do think that can happen by sharing what makes us sad, too. So, what is it about life that breaks your heart, that makes you sad, that really gets under your skin? And then, what motivates you to do something about that?

LBG: Right. So, I would say Kavanaugh... he's been a trigger for a lot of women. Watching that whole thing go down makes me really sad. And thinking about the generations of women I know that have suffered abuses... and many of those women were women in a white community, right, so I can only imagine what it was like for women that are marginalized or in other countries. It's very emotional. So, trying to think about how I can help women. How I can raise a daughter that has a voice or have a niece that has decided maybe she's bisexual or pansexual and support her. And educate my parents. I think it's all these little things. 

There's a group I want to get involved with called Represent Us that takes corporate money out of government actions. I'm really scared of the way that our country's moving. It's funny, I had just gone to an energy healer - Barb Largent - who might be somebody I recommend and she's like, You can't operate in the 3D world because you lose your sanity. The 3D world is 45 and all the horrible things going on in the news, but it's like the same churn every day, so it's not helping any of us lift up. On the flip-side, though, back to the woman conversation, I really do think 45 has catalyzed or motivated this generation of women to step up and go, Okay, fuck this. I'm gonna have a voice. I'm not just gonna be taken for a ride with this current administration. So, that's been the silver lining. So, with the fear I think there's hope that things are changing. But, then again, it's like an echo of the past - of the '70s. I feel like history does repeat itself just in different ways. And hopefully this time we take a different step forward. I think that was just a random train of thought (laughs). 

ACT: On a practical level, what do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

LBG: Tell me on a practical level, how do you mean that?

ACT: This is one of those questions where I'll say, "What do we mean to each other, individual to individual?" and somebody will say "Everything". They might mean it. They probably do. They probably legitimately mean it. But what does that mean? What does each person - the people that are sitting beside you at the traffic light, the bank teller, the butcher, the confederate flag-waving, or the Lululemon ambassador decked out in her Tesla - what do we all mean to each other? Why are we here together? How do we function together? And what does it all mean to you? 

LBG: So, the last two I think are bigger questions. The thing that was coming to mind when you were saying all these different people, I think we're here to teach each other. This lifetime is just a big journey of learning. And do I believe there are next lifetimes? I don't know. But it's like I have to constantly remind myself this guy with the confederate flag - he's triggering the shit out of me right now, but he has a belief system that there's something he's reflecting in me that I need to understand or learn about. And if I can have a conversation with him maybe I learn something from him or understand where he's coming from... to make a bridge or bring us together. I don't think humans are inherently meant... I mean, nature is violent. Right? So, I don't know that we're always going to come together or be one big love. I think we're here to learn from each other. (Long pause) I'd love that, but I don't think that's how it was designed. 

ACT: What do you see for the future? 

LBG: So, I think we're heading fast and furiously down a technology road. I think we're gonna have computers that we interact with more than people. We'll stop... even the card readers that have your attention and you stop looking at the grocery person. Now you're just gonna ask your computer or your robot to go get your groceries for you. Right? We'll just continue to separate unless we have that epiphany, that consciousness that so many people believe is coming. I've been told I'm a light worker - I'm supposed to help people come to that realization. How I'm gonna do that, I haven't figured it out yet. Is it just having conversations? Is it putting that perspective out there? I don't know. I feel like so many of the sci-fi movies that are out there that we watch about the future are this dystopian, sad reality. And when you think about that's what we put into our brain, so of course that's what everybody expects the future to be like. So there needs to be a major shift in like, Oh, it's gonna be this beautiful we've come together. We have very few of those movies where we figure out how to operate as a society. So, as long as we continue to consume the media that we do and read these books where everything falls apart, I don't know how we change that. So, it's a sad view of the future, for me. I want it to be different, but I don't know how you catalyze the masses to think differently. It's an age-old question, right? 

ACT: What does community mean to you - being a part of community with all of the differences? 

LBG: Burning Man - that is a community that has 10 principles that they try and live by. And even in Burning Man you've seen the change where people no longer even know what those principles are. But I think when you can come together as a community and you can be working towards a common goal... again, that's a slippery slope. You don't want to have rules, right? You have principles. You have things that you all want to bring together to make it better. In Bend, I think we're having a struggle with figuring out which way we're headed and what we want to look like. Like Sally Russel, for example, being the new mayor - I think she wants to bring that community together; she wants to put those principles in place; she's trying to form committees so everybody can have a voice. And I think that's really important for a community - for people to have a voice or feel like they're contributing. You know, that's the beauty of… going back to Burning Man, where you get to see on this little, microscopic level how you can come together and do that and then take it apart and come and do it again. And I think those people take that into their communities and try and create that there. I invite people in to do art with me here - friends, you know I haven't expanded it to everyone in the community and maybe I will in the future. But I think it's all those little things of coming together that make a community better or stronger. 

ACT: Another multi-part question. Do you have a sense of purpose or a rephrase could be a compulsion to live with intention? And then do you feel a responsibility to affect positive change? 

LBG: I do feel a responsibility to affect positive change. Again, I haven't quite figured out how I'm doing that. My husband just asked me yesterday when are we getting involved with this group that is non-partisan that wants to affect change for taking corporate money out of the government. Maybe that's my platform. Maybe not. 

Living with intention, I think so. I don't mediate every day. When you asked who I am, I didn't call myself a healer. I've been told numerous times that's what my purpose is. I don't feel it yet. So, that's a tough one for me because I'm wandering around in the world going, What's my special purpose? So, it has yet to present itself. I do feel like there's something. I don't want to spend my whole life searching for it, so I try and be still and wait for it to show up. 

ACT: This is a new one. Do you live according to your values? 

LBG: Hmmm. Probably not always. 

ACT: Is it on your mind? Is it something you strive for?

LBG: Going out and trying to be kind to other people, absolutely. Words matter. So there are things I stopped saying to myself a long time ago like, I don't have enough time or I'm late or I don't have the patience. Right? Instead I try and say things like I have all the time in the world and This is a learning experience. So, yeah, I guess I do... and all those things kinda tie together. And it's only been in the last two years that I've really tried to change my language so that I'm a better person to be with other people. And it makes a difference. 'Cause yeah, I used to say all the time Patience is not my virtue and then I'd be irritated with everything. 

ACT: I had this really intense conversation through this project a couple weeks ago. This guy Russell was talking about feelings versus emotions and how our feelings are a bit more accurate. He described them as cat whiskers, which I really liked. I have strong feelings - I call them values or compulsions - things I'm not sure I can necessarily trace back or fully understand but that mean a lot and shape the way that I live my life. What are your thoughts on feelings and value systems and do people have them? 

LBG: I definitely think people have them and certainly community shapes them for a lot of people. I've always thought I was kind of marching to a different drummer where I was a little more fluid in how things affect me. Sure, I've got things that are drivers in there that I grew up with or are deep-seated... I don't necessarily think that time runs linear, back to the quantum physics. Yeah, I mean, I think there are people that... I mean take my dad, he's a Trump supporter. And he truly believes that our country's going to fall apart because the liberals are in charge. And he had a narcissistic mother and a sister who killed herself and he was in Vietnam. So, when I look at him I go, All these things have affected the decisions you've made in your life and where you are now and what you believe about the world. And all I can do is send love to the person that I knew. Because he doesn't seem to be that person anymore. He was a product of being raised by a dad who had gone to World War II, who was an alcoholic. So, yeah, I think there's nature, there's nurture, there are so many things that affect how we operate and what those principles are for ourselves. And I think everybody operates from a different set. There's always gonna be some tweak. Like snowflakes, we're all different - unique, that's the better word. And sometimes we line up, right, and then we operate together, but even then, it's not always seamless. 

ACT: Do you want to ask me anything?

LBG: What is the larger... what's going to happen with this in the future? Are you publishing a book? I see that you're connecting with all these amazing people and having these awesome conversations, but what is it in the end? 

ACT: Yeah (laughs). It's funny... we're conditioned to want that answer, right? Me, too. So, I don't want this to sound preachy... 

LBG: I already love the answer that you've given!

ACT: But I'm struggling. I'm struggling to make this something that lasts and will work because this is my third year, interview 116, with no funds. And so I'm wracking my brain on a regular basis of what does that mean? I'm not coming at this with a trust fund. It's just out of the wallet - kinda all the time. But whenever people want to say something it has to answer the question you asked. They need it to be something packaged. And I'm not sure I can answer it and I'm not sure I'm gonna find peace in it for myself because in some regards this is the whole thing. I'm doing this work that so many other people aren't curious enough or bold enough or audacious enough to do. I do it with enough skill that I can put it on the internet and make it into a podcast. I've published two books already. I try to make a consumable, but that's also just to reach different audiences. Some people just want to pick something up. Some people want to listen to something. And some people want to read it on the internet. So, I'm trying to meet those needs while keeping everything to my standard. Don't really want to have five minutes of ads at the beginning of the podcast. Don't really want to have a bunch of commercial advertisements in the book - not that people have offered - but, to me, it's nicer to just have content. So, I don't know. I don't know if what it is is a stepping stone for me to be hired by an organization where I get paid by them to go do this. I don't know if it's gonna take me 15 years of it before people start to understand the value of it. I don't know.

LBG: I understand the not knowing. It's very difficult. Yeah, very difficult. I cry a lot with the not knowing - being confused or... you know, they tell you to do the thing that you love and try to be in the flow of that and you're like, Okay, yeah, but I have to make the magic paper to live in this world. So, how do I be both of those things? Part of being a maker - I stopped saying I'm an artist or a painter or a jewelry maker because I realized that the joy of just creating something and giving it away brings me more happiness than selling it. But can I make a living doing that? No. So, I sell real estate. Right? And hopefully at some point that flow changes and I can do something that feels more meaningful and give up this make me the magic paper job. So, I totally understand that and where that emotion comes from and how you feel it in there. But you feel compelled and want to give back in a way. And it's beautiful because not everybody will stay in that. This discomfort, we so easily want to turn away from the discomfort. 

ACT: Yeah, it's brutal. And lonesome. 

LBG: That's really interesting because you're connecting with new people, but yet you feel lonely. Tell me more about that. I see it.

ACT: (Laughs) Therapy session. I don't know. For me, it's kind of wrestling with the issue that the world - awfully generic way to put it - is willing to pay me for any number of things. I've done a bunch of them over the years to keep this freelance lifestyle going. And some of the things it would probably pay me well. And I guess all I have to do is say how important that thing is to me and either pretend it or fake it until it becomes real. And then I can have the magic paper and do the life and buy the things. And feel like I've sold myself out and feel sad and feel unfulfilled and feel... I don't know... cheap. But the world won't seemingly pay me to do the thing that is really in line with who I am and what I have to offer and my skillset and things that I learned and went to school for and practiced a lot. So, I don't feel like I have many comrades. I don't mean this with some sort of mean judgment, but I just think many people aren’t doing it like that. And so, it is lonesome. 

And you know, I'll sit here with you and this is so lovely - this is why I do it. But then I have tons of work to do that's all alone - lots of transcribing, listening to your voice over and over and over again, typing all the words, figuring out how to punctuate you. Right? We'll take some pictures in a couple of minutes and I’ll work on those and then I put it out there and it's just kinda like crickets, right? So, that's all lonesome, too. There's not a huge fanbase. I'm not getting letters every day telling me how much this is changing people's lives. So... what's it for? What am I doing it for? Who am I doing it for? I don't know. Maybe it changes - today, or tomorrow, or next year. 

LBG: I feel like you're a Buddha. You're sitting in a cave - I mean, you're going to people and talking with them - by allowing people to come... and that's a lonely existence, right? Allowing people to come and tell their story to you and processing that. 

ACT: I'm a Buddha that does home visits (laughs). 

LBG: That's right. You let people reflect on themselves and then you put that out in the world and whether or not people consume that right now or maybe you die and become famous and they're like, Look at this body of work that he created and nobody saw it then, but how meaningful is it?! I think it's so meaningful. It moves me. 

ACT: Yeah, it moves me.

LBG: I see that. I love that. 

ACT: Do you have any last words?

LBG: Be excellent to each other, in the words of Bill and Ted. That's what comes to mind (laughs). 

Mandy Butera referred me to Leslie and then I ended up meeting her soon after at an event that Mandy put on. I love to meet people for the first time when I show up for our interview, so we kept that initial encounter brief.

Paul Arney

Jesse Locke recommended Paul to participate here. He accepted immediately and enthusiastically, which led to my really looking forward to connect with him. We laid some plans to meet up at his tasting room and then make a trip to the brewery together, but due to time constraints, we stayed at the tasting room. After a short detour to the neighboring coffee shop, where we ran into Brandon Harris, we sat down at the bar and talked shop about beer and life and all the things you will read or hear below. And as we chatted, Paul’s wife, Staci, worked away on the computer and Hans kept busy in the other room. The place was full of life - quiet and productive life. It was so great to chat in Paul’s work space while that work was going on. That authentic scene set the stage nicely for our authentic conversation. If you’ve not stopped by The Ale Apothecary, I highly recommend it! And be sure to seek Paul out. You won’t be disappointed.

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ACT: Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

PA: That's kind of a wide open question. Well, my name is Paul Arney. I grew up in the Northwest - up in Everett, Washington. Went to college up in Bellingham, which really shaped, I think, what I value as far as - not people value - but as far as outside. That was a good space to learn about mountains and rivers and that kind of thing, which became very important as time went on. I ended up falling into a brewing job, which also has defined me as a person. And then you combine those two things with this piece of land that my wife and I bought up Skyliners... we've got this piece of land with - it's very wild - lots of trees and a river and a little brewery. So, I think, nowadays, that is really what defines me. I have a little family. We have a little business. On this wonderful piece of property and we're just trying to enjoy as much of it as we can.

I enjoy playing guitar, getting out and cross country skiing or just walking. Music and organic things, I think, bring me a lot of joy. You know, these things... I think it's why I fell into the brewing industry is because I've always had this affinity for history and not just the fact that it's interesting, but finding things in my life that I could identify with, say, as you travel back through time. And brewing, you know, has this really old... it's one of man's first occupations, maybe. It's one of these things that we've been doing for a long time. And that kind of organic-ness - the see, the touch, the feel. The consumerism of this world kinda gets me down sometimes, so having a business where I can touch the thing that we're making and not only that, the thing that we're making is often on wood which has been grown out of the ground. And we get to interact with people, you know, and those things are all real. Yeah, so that kind of organic thing. It's (laughs) a funny world. Right?

ACT: What concerns you? What's on your mind regarding life, community, coexistence, humanity - that sort of concern - and then what motivates you to do something about it? 

PA: That, I suppose, has changed - I would probably say significantly - since we've had kids. I think the ultimate thought process and the feelings I have personally that I have about that are the same, but the intensity level of how I feel those - they get very poignant when your kid is asking you about global warming (laughs) or something. Or, What's a Republican? And trying to answers those questions, they do resonate with me because I do think about that stuff and probably think about it more than I would like to. I've experimented - not listening to the news - and I always feel better, but some level of me is like, you know, I want to contribute. I want to be part of the community and society around me. 

I know that, for me, I don't want to carry weight around. I don't want to have the weight of the world on my shoulders and slog around through life and constantly be depressed about how much is wrong and so I try to focus on the things that I can make an impact and that's often just the moments you have with people. Right? And the things you do throughout your day. And, fortunately, in this world, Im a white male, so I've had certain doors open to me, maybe, that others don't. I was able to go to college and understand, maybe at some level, how certain parts of the world work, for better or for worse. And I had this opportunity to take the skillset that I ended up having as a brewer and that knowledge of the world and be able to make a living that I hope reflects good things. I've always wanted this business to be a learning experience for me to understand the world and capitalism. Because it is, for better or for worse, it is the system that we're living in. I've done a little bit of traveling and I really haven't seen another model out there that works any better.

I do like the idea that people can work hard and attain something. Which isn't saying that everyone has the same opportunity, but I was able to leverage that and be able to understand, kind of, how this system works. And I do hope that at some point the reflection happens where the way that this business is run and how my life is intertwined with it, it reflects and makes ripples in some ways. Right? Where people maybe will think more about where stuff comes from or how stuff is made.

I guess to answer that question, it's like a lot of times when I get stuck in a hotel room or at my in-laws and the TV's on, I think I really trip out on how much we as humans are affected by the stuff that is put out in front of us to generate corporations money. And that really bothers me because you take away all the political leanings of people and you find and you meet people on an equal playing field, more or less - I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but everybody's primarily a good person. And we all want to be happy. I think at some level I want more of that for my kids and the world that they're going to be growing up in. Those are the things we should be working towards.

ACT: What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

PA: I would say just about everything. I couldn't even... I guess the first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is sitting here, right here, if I had to go through and name all the people that helped me or encouraged me to be the person that I am and do the things that I do, I couldn't. Because, I mean, it goes down the smallest comment.

I was working at this coffee shop in the mid-90s and it was after I had left college and I was thinking about what is it I'm gonna do with my life here? My parents and I spent a bunch of money to get me this degree and I don't want to be a geologist. Why did I go to college? And I was working in this coffee shop and there was this woman that I worked with who was older than I was. She had kids. Her husband would come in with her kids sometimes - we'd chat. And when I told her I was thinking about going to brew school to become a brewer, she looked and said, What a noble occupation. Right? And that one little sentence and her belief that A. I could do it and that that would be not just a great job but it would be something to be proud of. And that was huge. And then you take to your parents and that was the complete opposite. I mean the amount of things they told me and I learned from them outweigh that one statement by a lot, but at the same time, I can't discount that interaction with that woman.

So, I guess to answer your question, I go into every encounter with everybody that I have... I mean, really, that's all we have is our relationships with each other. If we want to make any change for our world, for our community, we're going to be engaging and working with the people around us. Yeah, I don't know. That's a big question. It's kind of intense (laughs). 

ACT: Given that's your answer, on the grander scale, what does it mean to you to be part of community and to be part of community with people who don't see the world how you see it? If you raise people up to this level of importance - each and everybody along the way - how do you find peace with the fact that you're coexisting with people who definitely aren't viewing others in that way or who have an agenda that maybe even is attacking of that?

PA: Well, I guess I'll say first, that's kind of distinct. And I don't know if that's just a reflection of where I live, but moving to Bend, the community that I have here in town and the people that I associate with, for better or for worse, more or less, have similar outlooks - have shared values. And so when I think about the people that I engage with that maybe are not having those same values or that same outlook, it's gonna be people I run into at the grocery store. It's going to be the guy at the gas station. It's gonna be these really quick interactions, right, that don't go very deep. Or I guess they go as deep as you care to take them.

There's the community of friends that I suppose I have and I engage with and that is a certain part of my life, but there's that other one - and I guess the family members that you engage with at holidays is kind of a similar thing. I think right now we're in this time - and maybe it's like this all the time - where there's groups of people that have these ideologies that are in opposition to each other. They're almost in existence because of the other one. And it seems like the only reason that they're going to continue being that way is because the other one is there. It's like that opposition creates these distinct differences. To expect that everybody is going to have the same outlook or the same belief system, to me, that runs contrary to the idea of what my vision of America is or even the things that I find value in around the world. It's the cultural differences. There's gonna be good, there's gonna be bad, there's gonna be interesting things, there's gonna be not... I mean it's just too much to ask for everybody to be the same. Not only is it impossible, it wouldn't be very interesting, first of all.

I was just reading something - It Can't Happen Here, by Sinclair Lewis. It was written in the '30s. There's this part in the book where he talks about the concept of we have to be different. We have to be able to get along and not let it frustrate us because that's the way it is. So, here we go fighting these things that are different in other people or other systems or the other. This battle - I'm right or you're right or whatever - when in reality, it seems to me that we should be celebrating the things that we appreciate in others - the things that work. Because the other battle for this supremacy, for the one who's right, is unwinnable. We've proven that throughout history that it's totally... there's no winning.

And so that's what I think about when I engage with people who may or may not have different opinions or views than I do. I just go in open and I try to just find that common thread - and that wasn't intentional (laughs). Driving up to the gas station in this truck, it sure opens doors of conversation. The amount of times that somebody's like, Oh, my dad used to have one of those! and where that leads. You may end up leaning differently politically, but all of a sudden you're sharing this moment where it's like we both appreciate a 1972 International pick-up and that feels good. 

ACT: Do you have a sense of purpose - or a rephrase could be a compulsion to live with intention - and do you feel a responsibility to affect positive change? 

PA: Yeah. I mean, maybe almost to my detriment. Yeah. Well, it just happened recently. I went to Colorado for a beer event and I did this podcast. And so this guy was asking me about my brewery and what I did and how we do things and all that and after it was over he turned to me and said, Why do you make things so difficult for yourself? And he was kind of joking, but I know what he meant. And, the funny thing is, there's a lot of intention there to not make it so (laughs). I intentionally went in to make it so it would be a manageable thing for me. Which, I think I have at some level attained. There's certain things that my business doesn't do that I abhorred about the brewing industry. But there are things that we do that are, on some level, kind of ridiculous. That in itself gives me joy for some reason. It's a different type of struggle (laughs).

But yeah, I think I was either blessed or cursed with a heightened sense of observation. I'm a good listener and sometimes it's hard for me to not pick up the energy from people around me. And so I end up being very intentional about a lot of things. And I think it is good, but anything in excess is probably unhealthy. So it's actually been something I've been trying to pull back from a little bit. I don't have to make eye contact and smile at everybody I see in the grocery store (laughs). But no, I think it's good. And I think that also is something I wish that maybe was more common in our culture.

Just for example, since we live out of town we spend more time than we'd like in vehicles. And it's kind of crazy to notice how you can almost get somebody's personality through how they drive. And I've been really kind of saddened a little bit by seeing how many people are in this gas and brake mentality. It's either the foot's on the pedal going a little too fast and then slamming on the brakes. Slamming on the gas, slamming on the brakes. And, to me, that reflects a lot on our society. And it doesn't leave a whole of room to open up and let other people in. You've got your blinders on and this is just what I'm doing. I'm trying to align with people who have more time to open their arms and let people in. 

ACT: As we start wrapping up, do you have anything on your mind that you'd like to ask me? 

PA: My question would be, because you've been doing this for a while now - a lot of people - if you had to put those 115 interviews and draw out a common thread between all of them, could you do that? Is there something that comes to your mind?

ACT: Well, the easiest thing to say - which I can't just say one thing and shut up, so you'll get a few different answers - the easiest thing to say would be now, just by default, it's me. I've linked them all together in some capacity. I also, as you know, ask pretty leading questions. This isn't scientific. I'm implying that you answer them in a way that makes you seem like somebody who cares and then also people are referring people who tend to answers the questions in a nice, positive, uplifting way. So, it's easy to say everybody gives a damn. Everybody cares about everybody else. This kind of thing. Not to say that I'm skeptical when I go and sit down with somebody, but it's also hard to believe that everybody can have similar answers to these questions - nuanced, but similar - when things are such a mess out there.

So then I start to wonder if I've just made this an easy quiz to pass. But even that says something endearing and it's that deep down, even if it's regurgitated information, it's the thing that we think is right so we say an answer that we're hoping to live up to. So even if this is an easy quiz to pass, at least people know somewhere inside that our concern for each other should be at the top of our list. Even if it's not altruistic. There's this argument that there is no such thing. Like, if I had all the money in the world, I'd want to give some of it to everybody so that everybody else could feel better so that the general vibe was a bit higher. But that wouldn't necessarily be for them, it would be for me. I don't know. I guess maybe in three or four or five more years, some of these themes will become a little bit more obvious. There's 90,000 people here, so I'll never interview everybody in town, but that would be really interesting if I could. Because then, I think, we'd actually start learning some things. 115 answers - that's a minuscule number in the community. 

PA: Something you said there - not that the answers are regurgitated, but it's almost kind of a hope - it just resonated with me because I went through this phase of actively trying to make changes and then when I discovered that maybe certain things - say it was writing or playing guitar or exercising, whatever - when I wasn't doing those things and I thought about it, I would get frustrated, Oh! You were supposed to. Why didn't you? But I read something - I can't remember what it was - where now, when I hear these things, that's actually positive. Because we're engaging that part where we're remind ourselves. That's good. It came to our attention. That means that you are making those changes. You're thinking about it. And maybe the next time it'll mean more or you'll act more, but it's not a source of something to get down upon. It's a source of something to celebrate. Because that hope is there. And eventually, with enough reminders or thinking about it enough, it becomes a way of thinking or a way of being and then you've attained it. It just kind of happens. It's happening. It's already happening (laughs). Right now! 

ACT: Do you have any closing remarks?

PA: Thanks for doing this. No, this was great. It fills my heart. It's awesome! 

Jesse Locke recommended Paul to participate here. He accepted immediately and enthusiastically, which led to my really looking forward to connect with him. We laid some plans to meet up at his tasting room and then make a trip to the brewery together, but due to time constraints, we stayed at the tasting room.

Russell Huntamer

Ian Trask recommended Russell to participate here. And due to his soon-coming trip to Mexico, we almost didn't meet up this morning, but we pushed through and I'm super glad for it. Russell's big dog, Bub, met me in front of his home and then Russell's wife, Brook, treated me to a hot cup of tea and made me feel at home. By the time Russell got home I was already comfortable on his couch. He sat down with me and we started chatting and after just a couple of minutes, his cat, Boo, made a home at my side and purred throughout the rest of our talk. 

This interview is quite different than the rest. Each interview has its nuances, of course, but this one has a heavy lean toward the philosophical and existential. I hope you’ll find some food for thought here. I always find a little relief in the fact that no one of us really knows much of anything. We have our thoughts and feelings based on our own experiences and sometimes we refer to them as beliefs, but they are just that and not the same as fact. So, is there any room in your beliefs for new ideas? For broader understanding? For more compassion? For new perspectives? I hope so.

Who are you and how would you describe yourself? 

Well, my name is Russell Huntamer (laughs), but you know, who I am - that's one of the biggest questions that I think you can actually ask. But it's more of like, What am I? First and foremost, I believe that I am a soul. Identity is a very interesting thing. We tend to think it's our bodies or the things that we do or the things that we say. As opposed to being something that we're doing. So, existentially, who I am or what I am is a soul. But as far as what I do, what I tend to concentrate on, what my life is like - I live a few different lives in some regards. I'm in the business world often. I'm a partner here at Compass Commercial - do a lot of commercial real estate deals, do most of the retail deals in town, work with a lot of people in the community - but a lot of it is on that kind of numbers side of things and real estate and legal side of things and putting deals together. I work with a lot of really good people, but it's not what I necessarily do to feed my soul or it doesn't necessarily coincide with what some of my deepest passions are. 

I'm a father of three. I'm a husband. I've got a dog and a cat (laughs). All my family lives here. My main passions are I really enjoy reading and studying material related to I guess you could say existentialism and metaphysics. Spend a lot of time trying to figure it out - whatever this is... existence. I think what I enjoy doing or what I resonate with is I enjoy taking care of people. I enjoy helping people. Finding the best things and sharing 'em. I like the archetype of medicine Buddha. Playing my own part in helping relieve suffering or trying to wake up myself and then also help others wake up. 

Sometimes I feel like I'm not doing anything to change the world or save the world and things like that, but I think in some regards, really, the only way to save the world is to wake up and then help others wake up. And that's what I'm trying to concentrate on these days. So, whether or not that outlines who I am (laughs) is maybe debatable. But those are some of the things that I do and concentrate on and believe in. At my core, I'm regularly trying to make sense out of all this and trying to come up with a reality model or discover the best reality model that is not delusional that simultaneously helps me to stay open and expansive and playful and joyful. And to not be in denial, as well. 

I think you've answered the next question, but on the chance that you've got more to say or maybe you can expand a little bit, what concerns you and what motivates you to do something about it? What I heard in what you said was there's something serious about what we're doing. And what I understand as I make my way through the world is a lot of people don't really take it seriously. And we do a lot of coping, or a lot of excuse making, or a lot of dodging the reality of things. So, do you have any thoughts on that stuff? Why do you think that you're drawn to understanding your existence when it seems to me that so many people aren't? And if that ties into what concerns you and what motivates you to do something about it. 

Well, a lot of people unknowingly will do what they can to avoid cognitive dissonance, which often times includes not thinking about things or avoiding certain feelings so that way they don't have to wrestle with the electrical storm between the two hemispheres of the brain (laughs). So, they'll suppress portions of themselves that are all still very right there just waiting to be allowed to be aware. Just waiting for them to be conscious of those - for the personality or the person to be conscious of these - things that involve deep awareness. But there's all sorts of ways in which - or mechanisms that are in place that - limit our awareness. And what I believe - what makes sense to me - is that the foundation of all that is beliefs. What you believe about what physical reality is - how we got here, what we are - your beliefs will dictate whatever your values are and whatever it is that you pay attention to. So, I feel like we're still in some sort of hangover from a reality model that comes from many different religions and also from just experience alone - just our own individual experiences. We get the impression that we're existing - we are a lone or a separate self existing in a universe that is separate from us - and we come up with all these stories - kind of mythologies - to describe how we got here and along that way, we - in some regards I feel like we - made it up. We came up with the best story we could and kinda made it up a little bit - seemed like it made sense - but the implication of some of these stories or myths can be very limiting. 

For instance, in the Christian model, being here on Earth is a problem. We're down here because we did something bad (laughs). You know? And we're led to believe that along the way our bodies are a problem, our impulses are a problem, we're lowly sinners and we have to earn our way back to something. This is something to get away from. And that the content of our own mind and our own impulses are not to be trusted. And then there's this fear of hell - going somewhere for eternity - if you don't do it right (laughs). And if you do it right - if you're a good boy and girl and all this kind of stuff - then you get to go to the better place. Whether or not that's truly what Christianity is about, those are the mainstream dogmas and doctrines that have been placed on top of the whole thing ever since its inception. So, that's one example. 

And then you even have Hinduism and Buddhism which still describe the body as a problem and desire as a problem and place, instead of original sin, it's karma on top of everything. And therein lies, again, another problem where you can’t trust your desires, you can't trust your impulses. It's your fault or it's your karma, maybe there's something that you did in your past lives that are causing your problems right now or are perpetuating your cycle - the cycle of rebirth - and until you metabolize through all that stuff, you're gonna continue. So, it's that same thing where physical here is a problem to be transcended or to get away from. Eventually, if you figure it all out, you're going to go to heaven or nirvana. You know, that kind of thing. Those are kind of the mainstream beliefs - maybe that's not exactly what it is was originally intended, but those are the mainstream doctrines and dogmas surrounding those religions, primarily. 

So, there's that on the religious side and then if you believe... atheist views or highly scientific views, you tend to think there's this thing that's outside of you. First off, this is all meaningless (laughs) - ultimately it's meaningless if there's no god or higher level of consciousness - you are separate, bumping around in a universe of other things - mindless rocks and gas and whatever else that just happenstance came together - and a lot of it wants to get you and kill you (laughs) and you came from nothing and when you die you're gonna go to nothing. 

So, there's that whole spectrum of things that if you believe any of those as such, it will dictate the way in which you process your experience and a lot of it will tend to make you feel less expansive. You'll feel bad about yourself, you'll feel alone and afraid in a world that you never made. You'll feel all these different things depending upon whatever it is that you cater to. So, for me, I feel like I ran across something that is maybe just a little bit more helpful. And it's not necessarily for everybody. But I do really feel like humanity or the reality model on the planet could use a real upgrade when it comes to understanding what this is and who we are and what we are and what we're trying to do. So, as far as what I'm trying to do to help the world or to give to the community, that's what I'm doing with these workshop seminars that are working with Jeb, which I'll be giving you his name and number and he's probably the next person I would think you would really enjoy interviewing. That's what I'm trying to do - is set that type of example, adhere to a more expansive type of reality model and maybe relay that. Not in a proselytizing type of way, but provide an atmosphere and example and a platform or a venue for people maybe to just get little glimpses of that. 

So, in your model or your belief system - if you want to use that terminology - what do we mean to each other as individuals?

Okay. So, maybe I should start with the ontology of the reality model. I've picked up some of this along the way, but most of this has been refined and fully articulated for me in a way that I've not done on my own so far in my life, up until now, in working with Jeb. And studying a few things that he's kinda given to me. And we've been working together now for almost two years. So, starting off, the base part of the reality model is that everything is made of consciousness - no matter what. And everything is a collection of consciousnesses. And there are infinitesimal - smaller and smaller - pieces of consciousness. And what it is made of is whatever you want to say - you could say it's god or it's all that is - it is awareness. And so even though it may appear to be dead or not alive, if you break it down - and even quantum physics is showing this now - if you break everything down into its smallest pieces, you will see that it's densely-packed, shimmering light. That there is a[n] element to it that actually will change based upon the observer. And it can do it simultaneously for all the observers. That's the nature of consciousness. Like the infinite way in which it can express itself - any given piece of it. So, that's kind of like the base thing. Instead of us being in this world where by happenstance we evolved all the way up into this now and somehow we developed such a level of intelligence that we started to broadcast consciousness. Like it's something exclusive to human beings or smart animals or something like that. When, really, consciousness is the base. Then, of course, it expresses itself in the multifaceted ways that it does. And each thing, like you and I, we are... your cell is a collection of consciousnesses on up to your organs to your whole body - basically, you are a collection of consciousnesses with each piece having its own awareness and as that collection solidifies, then there is kind of like a one consciousness that is you. And the same thing goes ad infinitum (laughs). You know? You could look at the Earth that way; you could look at everything that way. So, that's kind of like the base thing. 

And then as far as what people mean inside of this kind of holographic universe - but the holograph model doesn't completely work because as you break it into smaller pieces it becomes less clear. Each individual piece of consciousness reflects the entire thing and is capable of recreating the whole thing because of what it's made of and where it comes from. But as far as what we are to each other is each personality or each seemingly single self is one expression of our larger entity which is radiating all of our lives simultaneously in god knows how many realties from outside of time space. Basically, if you take a thought form and get a feeling and emotion behind it, it crashes from a wave and becomes like a particle. And therein lies physical expression. But this all begins in our dreams first, all begins in the thought realm first, coupled with emotion and feeling and then (smack!) the wave breaks and then you have physical reality constantly being expressed at what quantum science is saying is like 10 to the 56th times per second. In and out, the whole thing is pulsing in and out of time space - if you want to say it that way - in and out of existence at that kind of rate. And that's what we're doing together. As opposed to there being like this objective world outside of us that's like here and we're just coming into it. It's actually like a simultaneous co-creating and the things within it have their own consciousness as well. So, that's what we are together. Literally, we're interdependent, co-arising phenomena in this realm (laughs). 

What does this do to your ethics or your value system or the way you function on a regular, every day basis where you need to make decisions on some sort of moral basis in business or whether or not you get frustrated at traffic? On a day-to-day, when you acknowledge somebody else's existence in this particular way, how does it actually affect the minutia?

Well, it depends on how I'm feeling. You can have this reality model, but we're also recovering from one that is way more finite. That involves way more finite beliefs that are pretty limiting. And depending upon your state, you know, you can go back to that old reality model and you can feel like the whole damn thing is completely separate from you and it's gonna get you and whatever else. But, in general, over time, you create new patterns, new neural pathways, use a different cocktail of neuropeptides that can slow down the response where you really do start to own this stuff and kind of take that breath and look at it differently. And how that happens is you literally do adopt new beliefs out of some level of insight and experience. You don't just intellectualize it. You eventually become it. So, it will dictate how you respond and, over time, you do start to respond in such a way that you still remain open and expansive and you really start to see everyone as a Buddha or everyone as a Christ - you know, everyone as a soul. It does take time.

So, it definitely changes things. When you start to not feel like the world is out to get you and if you start to believe that you are safe and eternal and that you're here forever and that the world is a safe place and nothing happens to you that you don't ultimately agree to outside of time space - where it's actually something that you co-create, that starts in your dreams first, that you see is actually more for your education or for your ultimate betterment towards your progress and insight - then it definitely slows down all those kind of negative reaction kind of stuff. But it is a slow process. I certainly would not want to portray in any way that I'm - I definitely don't like to use the word enlightened or anything like that - that I've figured it all out, 'cause you can't. And once you do it just gets twice as complicated (laughs). But it's very, very applicable. When you start to see other people as more than just things outside of you, all of a sudden the idea of violence and things like that, you just have to see them as soul or also maybe pieces of the same consciousness. It just wouldn't make sense to try to take advantage of other people or to hurt other people or to do all these kind of things because you're not as confused about what it is that you think you're going to get from them. You know? You already kind of realize that that's a total illusion. That it's not gonna bring you happiness and in the process you're going to violate something that's rather sacred - just as sacred as you are. 

So, you have an ideal or a sense of how you'd like to get through this particular life and it sounds to me that it's with a certain set of values. How do you contribute to community? What's your role and how do you make the world better? 

Yeah. Right. And just to back up for a second - just to kind of finish the base - I just started with consciousness. So, the other one would be that you, because consciousness or because physical reality is more... you can manipulate it more than you realize - more than we used to realize, I think we're coming to those terms now through quantum physics. You actually get what you concentrate on and there are no exceptions. There's really nothing that didn't happen to you that you were not aware of when it happened. And what we constantly think about, feel about, concentrate on, one way or another, that winds up being what we experience. Second one is all evil, demons - those archetypes that we would classify as like negative or entities that could get us and all that stuff - exist only because of a belief in them. And then third is that all limitations are self-imposed. And then fourth, therefore, you form or create your own reality, but you're doing it with everybody else (laughs). But it's not like what we used to think it was. So, anyways, that's a very base part of that reality model. 

So, what I do to try to help the world or to make a difference in this world is to encourage that kind of reality model - and there's way more to it. To celebrate in the vitality of my own being and being okay with just being here and not doing any and everything that I can to avoid it and get away from it. To sit with the angst of existence and realize it doesn't have to be (laughs) anxiety-filled. It does cause a lot. Existence is peculiar and it ca be unnerving (laughs) and in so many regards that's what begets all of it. We come up with all sorts of stories to make sense of why this is happening in the first place. And I feel like I've ran across something that's very powerful that can really help us stop running around like chickens with our head cut off, trying to be happy from the outside and, simultaneously, destroy the world in the process and maybe even while we're trying to save the world, we might be stirring up the mud even more. Really, it becomes over and over again - wake up. Like, let's all wake up together. Let's change our consciousness. Let's change the layer of consciousness that we're in. And the way in which the whole thing will be physically expressed, it will change. It will physically change.

So, doing things like this workshop that I sent you. Trying to set that example. Being that way - being deeply loving to all my friends. Trying to be a good dad (laughs). Trying to employ this in the business world, I really do feel like for me, that's the hardest place for me to try to live out these principles. I work with a lot of amazing people, but sometimes things go wrong or sometimes there is the perception that there needs to be a winner and that there needs to be a loser. Or somebody gets the short end of the stick. That's where it's the hardest. But as far as changing the world, what I just went and did this weekend with a group of six people - we did a plant-based medicine ceremony two days in a row and just the level of realization and self-reflection and recalibration of how I operate in the world was so big that it's just like, Oh, wow, I don't have to run around always wondering about how I'm gonna fix the world or save it. Literally, I change the way that I live and within my sphere of influence. And then that ripples out. 

Do you have a sense of responsibility to affect positive change - to help somebody else or to live to your values?

Yeah. I have no choice but to. What I value is determined by my beliefs. To the extent that you don't live out your ideals, winds up being the extent that which you become fanatical about trying to make them happen. So they can kind of become expressed more in a mutated way or a deformed way. You know? If you're not doing what you believe in, if you're wrestling on a regular basis with there being a giant delta between your actions and the way your ideals are, therein lies a huge minefield for suffering and for acting out in other ways to still try to live out your ideals. So the more your actions are in line with them, the less fanatical you're gonna be about it happening. And you can see how fanatical people can get at a certain point because so much of what they believe in is suppressed or is allowed to have happened, so they turn up the heat or use more force to implement their ideals into the world or their principles into the world. And then, to me, that's where like racism comes from and genocide or I feel like the political climate often times feeds off of that, as well. And you have a lot of people who've got a lot of ideals or beliefs, too, that are really unhelpful and they've been suppressed for a really long time and then you have someone like we do in the White House right now who gives them a venue for expressing them and to try to act them out and you can see how shitty it gets. No offense if you're a Trump fan - I don't think you are (laughs). You don't seem like it. 

Let the record show that I'm not (laughs). 

I'm not a Republican or Democrat fan for the most part. If Elizabeth Warren runs I would vote for here, but I didn't vote for either Hillary or Trump. I just kind of see them as... Hillary's more like status quo. Just the left head of the puppet (laughs) and then, generally, the Republicans are the right head and they just maintain a very narrow conversation for us all to concentrate on while everyone's ignoring the fact that both sides represent the war machine and the big pharmaceutical machine and the medical industrial complex and all of the other things that we're generally not talking about that we just take for granted that that's how we have to do it. Chris Hedges always talks about... Nietzsche always talked about it... the narcissism of minor difference. Even though it seems like they're polar opposites, it's still - in my opinion - a very narrow hallway of discussion. 

Do you think there's much hope for changing the game? And I guess I would call "the game" the current Western world or American culture of accumulation and wealth and distraction.

Yeah, absolutely. Hundred percent. Yeah, I'm not worried about that whatsoever. By the nature of what this is made of. I mean, first off, if you cater to the idea that this is made of consciousness and it has its own awareness and it is constantly seeking to expand and create and that everything is an evolution in consciousness, it has its own durability and ability to change and literally for all sorts of negative seemingly physical situations to completely be transcended and changed - for physical reality to actually be expressed differently. Hundred percent. 

Even something like Trump, we tend to look at the apple skin of what's going on when, really.... everything that's going on represents a collective consciousness and sometimes what seems to be negative can actually be a counter-steer method for something that we're all progressing towards - that we're actually doing together. Even though if we have a certain reality model it will appear like it's just bad. It's all bad. But there's no way that it could be. There's so many things that we would classify as evil that so many things come out of that would not have been expressed - so many really good things, if you want to say good and evil and all that kind of stuff - that would not have occurred had that evil thing not taken place. Like in the case of Trump, we would not have learned the word misogyny. We would not have the solidarity with women that we saw at the Women's March right after Trump was elected. We would not have had that kind of turnout had Hillary been elected. I don't think we would have realized the shadow that this country has related to racism and xenophobia and ethnocentric shit that we have going on that was there the entire time. It's been brought out into the daylight to be inspected and to be changed. For us to become aware of them and be like, Oh my god, we're actually still racist. We actually still have this shit going on. And it's like it had to be brought into the daylight to be inventoried and for all of us to become aware of it and be like, Oh, okay, this is what we still have to work on. You know, stuff like that.

If we just wanted to look at all the bad shit, we would think this whole thing's going to hell. If it wasn't making progress toward getting better - all the time, forever - the whole thing would have exploded a long time ago. It wouldn't have even made it this far. Anyways, maybe that's a delusional sentiment, but, to me, if this is more conscious and aware than we've been thinking it is, then the things we're afraid of and worried about might not necessarily be.... there's a great saying - it's kind of like a Zen phrase - Nothing can intrude into being. Into what would being intrude? So, therefore, what is your concern? You could look at this as like, Okay, so what would this whole thing be doing to itself? If this is all conscious, made of the same one consciousness or if this is all God - that's the vedantic view is that This is. I am. You are. And everything else is God enjoying itself through whatever it is - through yourself, through me, through the dog, through the cat (laughs). You know? It's infinity maintenance. It's always staying on top of infinity (laughs). That's the trouble with infinity is that all probabilities have to play out. That's another quantum thing, too, is that there is a limitless amount of probabilities that are being expressed, but the one that we're aware of being expressed seems to be the only one that's happening, but they all actually are potentially being expressed at the same time. We're just not aware of them. Depends on the one that we're tuned into based upon our consciousness. Anyways, that's kind of getting into the weeds. 

This begs a lot of questions, for sure. Since I've moved to Bend I've heard a lot more of this and I assume it has to do with the socioeconomic status that tends to be pervasive here, but this idea of perpetuating positivity, of manifesting your own destiny, of success, of whatever - I hear this being talked about fairly often in a way that tends to nauseate me. But the way that I'm hearing you talk about something similar seems to be coming from a different angle that I find much more palatable. So, are you willing to say that if someone wants to get through life in a decent fashion without causing much harm and to pay their bills and survive or even thrive economically or have a healthy relationship with their parents or with their spouse or with their children or with their coworkers or with the traffic - these are things that one just decides? 

Well, you would have to have a reason to decide to do that. You can't intellectualize the whole thing, but it would be a feeling. You would say, That feels right. We can't use the intellect to figure this thing out ever. So it has to be by feeling and you have to get to a certain level of awareness to get to that point to understand that feeling is the basis for navigation way more so than...

Obviously we're not going to sort through this whole thing, but what if the feeling that you're talking about looks pretty wrong? What if someone's feeling about the way they get through life looks pretty bad? 

How so? 

Because of the more negative things that we talked about earlier: racism, genocide, rape - all that. What if they don't have the feeling to change? What's one's role if they're generally interested in changing the world for better and getting rid of those bad feelings? 

Well, I think one thing to always come to terms with and to always remind ourselves of is that everyone is doing the best they can given their current state of awareness. And that's from Jeb. And that's true. And I would say that that goes back to ideals, right? Those people were not born that way. They were given a reality model that encouraged them to think and to feel that way. I like to differentiate a little bit more between feelings and emotions. I think of feelings as actually more pure - kind of like cat whiskers. It's letting you know what your environment is like. They're pure. And what will happen is that we filter our feelings through our beliefs that then become our experience or then become our emotions and then corresponding thoughts. I would say that people who are racist, who are fanatic, fundamentalist Christians - all this kind of stuff - those beliefs were given to them by their experience. They were told what to think by their parents, family, culture, little micro-culture that they're in - all that kind of stuff . And they're not victims. There is a side of it that they chose... that they're choosing outside of maybe time space or maybe they're not listening to the greater awareness of the entity that is expressing them, but it's not something that truly happened to them kind of like an asteroid hitting the planet or something like that. There is something that was agreed to there that potentially even though it may appear negative and unhelpful and all that kind of stuff, it might be helpful in the long run - in their overall gain of insight. But on the surface level you could say in this life, you and I, we're originally given our beliefs from our whatever - I mean, where did yours come from? Parents, maybe some religion, the TV, experience, as well. So… sorry, a little bit more of the question again 'cause I just kind of lost it there for a second. 

(Laughs) Well, I guess the last thing I asked was just what do we do to make the world better given people's feelings or emotions are just off? They're not right. They're not better. They're not good. They're not healthful. They're not contributive. They're not peace-seeking. There's a lot of stuff out there that's just seems to me to be violence and chaos and bullshit and disruption and greed and accumulation and consumerism and bigger, better, faster, stronger. 

So, yeah. I think the foundation of that and what people value is determined by their beliefs. All the things that you're concerned about, I'm concerned about on a regular basis. I don't just turned a blind eye to it. But I try to put it in its place and have some level of trust or faith that it is part of the process. (Long pause) I guess it just comes back to reality models, for me. You know? There's a saying - That which if not of the Tao... is not for long. You can do it… for a while (laughs). You can do it for a while, but it will fall apart. And then you will see maybe a little bit more of the reality of the situation and then that's when you change your ways. 

So an individual can do it maybe for the length of their one conscious lifetime that they're aware of, but the system or the greater whole will shift through those experiences? 

Yeah and you can see right now - the biosphere is breaking down a little bit. We keep trying to tell ourselves, Capitalism is the silver bullet. Because we beat communism, capitalism is the silver bullet. And whatever you do to make money is fine because we beat the Nazis. So don't question our economic system. (Laughs) Never mind the fact that we're in the 5th or 6th mass extinction. All this kind of shit is going on in the physical realm because we're confused about our experience. But there will come a time when there won't be any more confusion about our actions because we wont' be able to ignore it physically playing out. We can do it now, you know, because we don't live in Syria. We don't live in the Amazon (laughs). You know? We can do it now because we're inside the castle walls, but it's not for long. Once that breaks down, there will be that day of reckoning where everyone does realize - basically there is that moment where there will be, I think, a mass awakening to this. And I think that's when maybe we'll even see that might be that quantum leap moment, as well. We can have those kind of things, collectively, when each individual's consciousness changes or awareness changes. Then the whole thing changes. So, anyways, I think that's real. 

We got through some version of the questions...

Oh, wait. Sorry, one quick thing. And this is Jeb, too. And by no means is he perfect, but he understands some things, for sure. He's made this his life work - this is what he does. And he often times will site that story about Jesus - the whole notion of if somebody hits you, turn the other cheek. Like you're just supposed to accept that or don't use violence, which is all part of it, really, but it's more about keep turning the other cheek until they get tired. It's like, Are you tired of this yet? Are you tired of being delusional about what's gonna bring you happiness? Are you tired of being unkind? Are you tired of being angry and frustrated and depressed all the time? And constantly using the same solutions that aren't working? You tired of looking at your phone and still not feeling connected with everybody that you're liking whatever it is that they... (laughs)? You know? We're gonna do all sorts of things until we get tired. Even if they're destructive to ourselves or the environment. Like drinking, whatever - addiction, violence, all that kind of stuff - we're gonna do it until we get tired of it. And/or when the whole thing breaks down, we realize it wasn't getting us where we wanted to go. And then that's when we'll make the change. Sometimes it takes a really long time. And it may be in this probability - in this world - maybe we will see almost a complete annihilation of the environment before we get there. But I think it will change. In geologic time (laughs) it will get better. 

Do you have anything on your mind that you'd like to ask me? 

(Long pause)

You get one, so you better make it really good (laughs). 

What makes you feel alive? Or what gives you a sense of aliveness?

ACT: (Long pause) It's cool - it's a question I'm contemplating adding to my list, so it's nice that you've asked. I guess what makes me feel most alive is my frustration or contention with the way the world works around me. So, I'm really - generally - at odds with the norm. I'm extremely frustrated by it. And I'm not thriving to the normative standard. You know, I can dress myself in a way where I fit in and I communicate and I buy coffee and exchange dollars for goods and all of that. I function well enough. But I don't thrive in this environment. And that is haunting, but the haunting is - it's not a reward in the way that most people consider reward - but that's the thing that makes me feel on some sort of course and alive. 

RH: Right, like you're not just giving in to what is normalized - what shouldn't necessarily be normal, but appears to be normal? Like you're not well-adjusted to a sick society (laughs)? And that gives you a sense of aliveness?

ACT: Yeah. I'd say more than anything that is some sort of proof that I'm on to something. Is that a fair way to answer your question? Is that how you were asking?

RH: I think that's great. In a lot of ways I feel the same way. It's a nice way to put it. You know, because some people would just feel bad about themselves as a result. 

ACT: It's a mega struggle. It's hard to stay on top of it because approval, applause, financial gain, accumulation of wealth - these are the things that tend to be the reward, that tend to help people stay on their track or be their compensation. So, if you don't get those things - and this is a deeply personal struggle at the moment - not getting those things, not getting recognition, not getting the things that make this particular version of our life go by a little bit easier is really hard. But I cannot I bring myself to participate in the game in the way that others seems very comfortable doing. And that is the one thing I think that I have. That's probably the most hopeful way I could say something so depressing. 

RH: Yeah. You have a set of principles that you stick to - that you adhere to. And you are actually acting out your ideals. 

ACT: Yeah. And this is a journey to try to find... today, interview 114, the questions that I wanted to ask were so meshed together just in how you answered the first one. It's nice to see someone looking at the world a little bit differently than what I encounter so often. You can just kind of set aside the rule book and try to stay more in line with - I like what you said - with the whiskers are your feelings. Put a little more trust in those things. Those things aren't telling you to hate. Those things aren't telling you to cheat. Those things aren't telling you to do all these things. They're not. I don't believe that they are at all. 

RH: Right. And we don't just have five senses, either. There's so many abilities of consciousness that we're not exercising because we're actually locking ourselves out of our awareness of them - due to our beliefs. So, we have intuitional senses; we have psychic abilities; we have astral abilities; we have all sorts of other things that we can do in other dimensions that we're not very aware of and we just think our dreams are some weird thing inside of our brain. Who taught us how to dream in the first place? That's really more of what we're really like - is what we get to experience in our dreams. Our dreams are the bridge, in a lot of regard, as an indication of how expansive we truly are (laughs). 

Well, you want to say anything in closing? 

I was just kidding about all that (laughs). 

Examining beliefs or taking a belief inventory, you start becoming keenly aware of your own, it all simultaneously - because you do get what you concentrate on - more will come up. You'll realize - even some of those very subtle ones, almost like little frequencies or combinations or vibrations - you can start to be very aware of them in other people. You can see why people behave certain ways. You can see it. If you interview somebody and they're victims and the world's out to get them, the whole thing's going to shit - they're depressed and they're suspect of joy and all this kind of stuff - it will be because they believe that the world is not a safe place. Or that they gonna die someday and that's it. And in the meantime, it sucks. They'll be suspect of love as a result, as well, because it's meaningless. Ultimately. It only kind of means something while we're.... really, beliefs - examining them and getting them in order - is one of the foundational things that you can do. And it becomes very clear very quickly - you talk with people, you can see it - not from a judgmental perspective, but it just becomes an observation. I can understand why you would feel that way or why you think that way - why you're having that experience. 

---

Ian Trask recommended Russell to participate here. And due to his soon-coming trip to Mexico, we almost didn't meet up this morning, but we pushed through and I'm super glad for it. Russell's big dog, Bub, met me in front of his home and then Russell's wife, Brook, treated me to a hot cup of tea and made me feel at home.

Richard Cork

I met Richard as my friend and I were taking down the exhibit of this project at Crow's Feet Commons. He was sitting on one of the sofas and asked me if the work was mine. Then he proceeded to offer his thoughts on the material, going as far as to offer me one of the truest and kindest bits of praise I've ever received. He referred to my portraits as "confrontational". I encounter many people who have some aversion to that word and that practice. I am not one of those people. Don't get me wrong, I don't seek out trouble, but I rarely avoid dealing with the situation at hand - no matter how difficult. And I can understand what Richard meant - I am presenting these people to you in a very honest and straightforward way, allowing - or maybe gently forcing - you to take them in as they are. 

We spoke for several minutes and discussed photography and art. Richard showed me some of his own work on his website and we just kind of clicked right away like two matching puzzle pieces. He left an impression on me and the thought of inviting him to participate in this project excited me. So, I reached out via email the next day. He accepted immediately and we made an appointment to meet at his home the following week. 

Richard toured me through his home and made me a cup of coffee and we talked and talked and talked. About art and design and photography and what it all may or may not mean. By the time we wrapped things up, we had spent nearly four hours together. And I can honestly say that every minute of it was a delight. As you'll see or hear below, Richard is articulate and kind, thoughtful, and wise. And he's funny. It was a pleasure to see him smile and laugh. And it was touching to see him shed tears. Due to a variety of circumstances, I don't have a patriarchal influence in my life. Talking with Richard gave me an idea of what it might be like to have a grandfather. 

PS. Richard will be exhibiting some of his art at Crow’s Feet Commons in April. Be sure to carve out some time to take it in.

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I was born in 1933. Which is auspicious, by the way - a lot of interesting things happened. The Nazi party rose to dominance in Germany. Was it 1939 that Germany invaded Poland? And I have very clear memories of the Second World War. When the war ended I was 12 years old - 1945. I had a conversation with a man yesterday at the coffee shop and he referred to people our age and I thought, No (laughs), your background is very different from mine. 

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, my name's Richard Cork. The name Cork is not Irish; it comes from England. I'm a person. I'm a husband. And I'm a father. I'm a friend. And I'm an artist. Sort of in that order. 

What concerns you and then what motivates you to do something about it? And I mean this in a social context.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. What concerns me is a lack of kindness. And there are two things that I value very highly in people: kindness and intelligence. And when I mention intelligence, I don't mean IQ. I mean a deliberate attempt to be a good person and realize that you're not alone in the world; that you share it with a lot of other people. And these other people are more like me than unlike me. What I see externally - two arms, two legs, two eyes - is seen is virtually every human being in the world and in many animals. So, we're all connected - whether we realize it or not. All these people are brothers and sisters and some people I feel very close to with whom I've shared some kind of an experience or important event in my life - or transition, maybe. I may share this time with another person - perhaps never see them again - but they become a brother or sister as a result of that. Anyway, that's the way I see things. 

So the connection you feel is the motivation for you?

Yeah.... yes. As I said earlier in our conversation, what I know best about myself I learned from people I know. Because of what they say, how they honor me. If someone listens closely to some point of view I have, I know that they respect my view of whatever the subject is. How else can we know who we are without other people?

Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention?

Oh, yes. Without question. And most of it has to do with being an artist. When I was a kid I could draw better than most adults could draw at all. And that's been my life. I've gone in a lot of directions and I have a lot of interests and so on and when I was a youngster I used to tell adults who wanted to hear certain things that maybe I'd go into medicine. Or law. They wanted to hear that. But I knew I really wouldn't. (Laughs) Because if I said I was gonna be an artist, they'd think, Well, you're gonna starve to death. Which is hardly the case. I don't know where that idea comes from. It's some middle-class notion of what artists... who they are and what they do. Art's not real work, you see? That's what some people feel. Real work happens when you have to sweat and trouble yourself and strive. Well, you have to do that if you're an artist, too. 

So, yeah, I think I live with intention. One morning at coffee we talked about legacy. What legacy could I leave or you leave or anyone else leave? I say kind of jokingly, after my wife has flushed my ashes down the toilet, within 15 minutes I will have been forgotten. Well, it's not really true, of course. First of all, there are people who care about me and I care about who are gonna feel a sense of loss. My son, for example, who's a lovely man. But also, maybe I have planted an idea in somebody's mind. Or perhaps someone has seen something about me as an artist, a person, or husband, or any of these other roles I play as examples for good living. If that's the case, that's it. So, that's purpose I think. 

Do you have anything to say about what the source of that purpose might be? You have the sense of purpose, but where does it come from? 

Well, it comes from being an artist, really. In my case. Another person might have a different story. I'm not gonna be a social leader or a business leader or a politician or any of those things. I'm not gonna write the world's great novel. The art I do is good - very good sometimes - but I don't know how it will be valued as time goes on. It'd be nice to be recognized. 

And then values - how do we develop values? It's a slow acquisition. Much of it comes from other people for me. Teachers I've had when I was growing up. I had a Boy Scout master who has influenced my life, helped me to appreciate self-reliance - being able to cook a meal in the wilds; being able to point a rifle and hit a target. Dozens and dozens of people. Of course teachers; all the way through public school, especially college - college was a major event in my life; I was required to read things and think about things I never even knew existed before and it definitely changed my life. And the question you just asked has been asked by people forever - starting with people like Plato, for example; he was asking essentially the same questions. Especially Aristotle. So, this has been going on forever. 

I'm sure that's how I'll be remembered - is "Plato, Aristotle, and Langlais." 

(Laughs) Yeah, for example. 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? Maybe not you and me, per se, but that's a fine example. 

Well, you and I hardly know each other, except we both enjoy authentic, heartfelt conversation. So, you get intimate very quickly that way. But I enjoy those conversations - sometimes with complete strangers. People will express themselves in a way and I learn a little something about them and their lives. Mostly it's positive, but sometimes I run across something... a person has grown up with a great deal of negativity in their lives and it's hard for them to see the world in any other way.

Do you think we have some sense of obligation to one another or we owe each other anything?

Yes and no. You might be having problems in your life with your significant other or business or something like that. Unless [there is] something I can do directly to help - some advice or point you in the direction of somebody who can help - it's none of my business and I'm not in the world to tell people how to live their lives. My job in your life is just honor you for who you are. 

Things seems pretty combative and polarized - divisive - these days. What does it mean to you to be part of community given those facts and given all the differences that we have? 

Well, it seems to me those are two different themes. If you're talking about current politics, that's the result of politicians manipulating us and that's gone on forever. It serves a purpose and it serves the purpose of a narrow audience: the wealthy, the powerful, the wannabes, and so on.

On a personal level, we could be among a group of people who are quite different from each other and some people might be a little challenging in their attitudes or something. But if we listen to each other... I don't mean just hear, but actually listen and try to understand what the person is saying, especially if I can relate it to myself and my own experience; sometimes in the form of a story - that often helps. I think respecting a person just because they're human is sufficient. 

There's this word mensch. In German it means mankind or a person. In Yiddish it implies a person worth emulating and admiring. I'll talk about a true mensch, for example. We don't have a word quite like that. We have many words we can put together. And I think to aspire to be a mensch in the Yiddish sense of it is a very worthwhile goal. 

Do you have a sense of responsibility to affect positive change?

Well, probably. And I say that because I don't know that I'm making any kind of positive change at all. Outside of being the best person that I can and being the best kind of artist I can, I don't know how else to do things. You know, if you come to me and sincerely want advice on a subject I know something about, that's a different matter, of course. But generally, I can't say I do have a sense of responsibility. But, as an individual, I can affect others in a very limited way. 

What's your overall take throughout your many years on this Earth of cultural change?

Oh, yeah, that's interesting. I'm really a child of the '50s. I graduated from college in 1956, for example. Long before your parents ever thought of entering the world. That certainly colors my thinking to some extent. Some people look back on the '50s as being this wonderful time when Eisenhower was president and things were pleasant and charming and so on. Not true - any more or less than any other time. Racial discrimination was rampant. Homosexual people were persecuted. I mean actually would be beat up - police would beat up homosexual people. A lot of nasty things were going on. It's like any other time, probably. But I keep going back to these very simple things: family, friends, work. That's at the heart of everything for me. 

What do you want?

Oh, I'm doing it. I've been doing it all my life. I've had dreams of being famous, for example. 

Here's something that's interesting. I don't know if we got into this when we first met. I'm a strong believer in visualization and that is for years I put myself to sleep by having some pleasant fantasy. Having a certain kind of studio space that would have certain things... and one of them - I've told this story many times - was having a really nice car and driving - I lived on the San Francisco peninsula at that time - and driving to San Francisco and then having dinner with a good friend - his name was David - and then he and I would go to a concert. And he had this taste for old music. I don't mean old-fashioned music, but Baroque and Rococo music... opera and that kind of stuff. And then coming home after ending a very satisfying, pleasant time. And I arrived at a point where I could no longer help myself go to sleep with that pleasant fantasy. And the reason was I was doing it. And that's happened over and over again in my life. The only challenge is sometimes the reality doesn't exactly, precisely match my fantasy. It takes a form that I hadn't expected. But those things really happen. They have happened to me. 

I don't believe in magic or spiritualism or anything like that, but I think we can set ourselves up for a good outcome or a not-so-good outcome depending on our point of view. You can choose to be an optimist or a pessimist. It doesn't matter because the fact is life is exactly what it is. So, however you view it is almost irrelevant. So why not be an optimist? Why not be an idealist? Why not? Someone might say, Well, you're not looking at reality. I certainly am. Just as much as the pessimist as looking at another kind of reality. But life is whatever it is. Change is true and it's constant. And if we can't adapt and embrace that notion then life gets a little difficult for us. So anyway, that's kind of my attitude towards it. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

Well, can't we all just get along (laughs)? Well, there's something to it. Why do people hate each other? Why are people afraid of each other? Why should anybody care whether somebody's transgender, black, or purple - who cares?! I mean, they're just people. And people say, Well, god hates homosexuality? And I think, Then why did he make homosexual people? Why carry around all of that baggage? Let it all go and just be a mensch, I say. 

I've started a habit of having people ask me something if they want to to end these interviews, so is there anything in particular on your mind that you'd like to ask me?

Well, we had a heartfelt conversation before this interview began, so I learned a lot about you. What attracted you to photography when you first started? 

ACT: That's great. I don't know. I don't know how it began. I have a memory that doesn't tell much of a story. This would have been in the early '90s, I guess, maybe the late '80s - I was young - and I must have had a point and shoot family camera of some kind. And I had gone on a hike - this was in New England - with my father. Some sort of spring hike where there was still some snow, but things were starting to warm. And I took a picture of - today it's a picture I would never even dream of taking... it was quite silly, I think - but it was of these red spring branches with melting ice. And I got the film developed and saw the picture and thought that it was quite nice and there was some sort of a photo contest at my school. I picked out a matte that matched the red and put it in a frame and entered it into this contest. And, for some reason or another, placed in some capacity. I don't exactly know why but it seems that that very basic and very simple thing encouraged me to think that I had some sort of knack for this. And there wasn't much between then and my wanting to go to photography school many years later. This wasn't a recurring pattern. But I was drawn to it in a way that I can't quite explain and drawn to it in the same type of way that I'm curious about other people and I'm curious enough to have these interviews and take these photographs and talk about it in this public way. I don't really understand why. I didn't have a mentor or influence in my life that highly encouraged this pursuit... it's interesting. I think about it a lot. Some people have these very lovely paths that they can trace back to the origin and mine's a little bit more vague. 

RC: (Laughs) Yeah, yours is probably more honest than some. More realistic. 

ACT: Yeah, I don't think I'll ever be accused of not being honest. 

RC: No, I don't think so, either. It was very clear to me when I first met you that you have an air of authenticity about you that's compelling, I think. I'd ask another question. What prompted you - you touched on it a little bit earlier - but what prompted you to begin this initiative of community in this particular way you're handling it? 

ACT: The origins, again, are real hazy. From photography school - which was a very formal training period where we were kind of primed to get into the classic photography, New York photography, fashion photography - I had thought that I was gonna take pictures of adventure - outdoor adventure, sport, and skiing - to combine some interests - photography and my love for outdoors. But as I went into photography school the thought of it just was very boring to me and it was also pretty saturated at the time. And my interest in people was just outweighing my interest in being that type of photographer. So I went to photojournalism school and I worked with some of the best - really some of the best - photojournalists in the world. And worked for guys that are part of some pretty for real agencies. Shook hands with James Nachtwey and this kind of thing. And just really started to feel drawn towards that journalism photography. And at the same time, I encountered some other projects - The Thought Project by a Danish photographer is the one I can definitely... not something I want to say I copied, but I can definitely see some origins to my work there. 

And I have a tendency to go through some pretty hard times. I'm not sure what that's about but usually some creativity comes out of these hard times and the first time was in Boston and I got the idea to photograph a stranger every day. So I pursued a project called I Heart Strangers, where I photographed a stranger every single day for 625 days in a row. I did that as I moved to Denver. I got pretty beat up by that process and I quit the project in 2010 and very soon afterwards regretted the quitting. But then for six or seven years, I was trying to come up with a new idea. And all of the ideas that I could make or think of or whatever - however you talk about ideas - were just the same project. To the point where I even tried it again and it just didn't feel right. So, after another life upset, I was wandering around the country and I came to Bend just on a lark and was here for two weeks and was just out in the woods and the idea for this came to me. And, again, it's hard to understand why, but it landed on me and I understood it and I knew what it might mean, so I just dove in. You were talking about how your wife has an idea and she just goes and does it - I think I might be that person, too. And I just started doing it and then, of course, it evolves and grows and now this is interview 113. 

RC: That's substantial. Well, you said something earlier about feeling a lack of community, so maybe you're creating a community. It comes from yourself. Your own need for that. The people you've interviewed, have you continued visiting with them and so on in some cases? 

ACT: Yeah, in some cases they've become friends. In some cases, you know, the process hasn't uncovered any greater points of commonality other than the obvious ones of our being human. 

RC: Well, that's enough sometimes isn't it? 

ACT: Yeah, it is enough sometimes. And I think that's part of my point and you explained it quite articulately. It is enough that we're both human. I think maybe it's even enough that we're here now at the same time even if we're not human. I feel a sense of obligation to try to get through this in a nice way. 

RC: Getting through this - you mean life? And what do you mean "a nice way"? May I ask? Who's interviewing who now (laughs)? 

ACT: I think at first I owe you and whoever I encounter decency and kindness. I'm ready for that. I'm primed for that. A lot happens after that and I'm often pretty surprised at the treatment that I am given. And, of course, you can take all these off roads and talk about perception and all this, but my experience is that I'm often pretty surprised. And then what's curious to me is that I'm repeatedly surprised - so I don't know what that means about me - by acts of unkindness and indecency. And I guess that's the filter... that stuff stands out to me. Not because I'm seeking the negative. I think it's actually quite the opposite. I've got my eyes open for the good stuff and I kind of keep getting surprised. 

RC: Sometimes somebody you've known for a long time can surprise you. My own wife, for example, sometimes comes up with ideas or observations that surprise me... after almost 40 years. Yeah, and certainly a stranger might bring an experience or something to you that enlightens in some way, perhaps. So, is this interview still going or should we cut it off? 

ACT: Yeah, I guess this is a good place. Just leave it with some questions. 

RC: That sounds like Aristotle to me (laughs). 

I met Richard as my friend and I were taking down the exhibit of this project at Crow's Feet Commons. He was sitting on one of the sofas and asked me if the work was mine.

Elaina Love

After Cate Hollister and I reconnected at the end of the year exhibition I had, she put me in touch with Elaina. I can't say exactly what caused it, whether it was her forgetting about our first appointment or my forgetting my gear on the way to our rescheduled meeting or something else entirely, but I would use the word strained to describe our time together. It felt as though the point of what I am doing and why I was there with her was totally lost -you will likely hear it in the interview - and there was a confused and maybe even combative energy. 

I left this interview feeling deeply affected by that and full of so much doubt and trepidation for embarking on the third year of this endeavor. It happens like this so rarely in a face-to-face meeting. We all have the encounter in more anonymous ways with other people who don't come into our sphere with all the love and joy and encouragement that we want, right? Ordinarily though, when I meet someone face to face and look them in the eye and talk with them, I feel connected to them and part of something much bigger. I didn't feel that with Elaina and even as I type this now, more than a week later, I am still searching for why. And even though we don’t see the world through a similar set of eyes, I still think there is value in our conversation below. And despite the fact that Elaina and I didn't become fast friends there is a lesson here, not just for her and for me individually, but for all of us.

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name is Elaina Love and I'm an entrepreneur. And, basically, my life is focused on helping other people to find their joy and live a great life. And I've done that through - over the last 20 years - teaching people how to upgrade their diet and just kind of anything related to living a life that's purposeful, meaningful. 

What concerns you and what motivates you to do something about it? 

What concerns me... I guess the planet. I just want to take really good care of the planet. And I feel motivated because I feel like when you start taking care of your own body and your own self, it becomes an extension of you - the planet does. So I just feel like we're all connected and so I care about other people and I just kinda feel like as you do that, you notice that there's an interconnectedness and a... it comes back to you. So, it's a cycle. I just guess staying in integrity concerns me and just staying true to what's really important in life, which is not material things but being connected with people and the planet.

Have you always been that way?

I think as long as I can remember. When I was in my late 20s, I kind of started discovering another form of spirituality other than Catholicism - that I grew up with - and realizing that when we tune into different energies they actually become real. And so, it's been for most of my life. And then I got into healthy eating in my early 30s and everything changed for me because I suddenly started realizing I had an effect. Like, what I did actually had an effect - whether it was on my body or on other people's lives. 

Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention?

Yeah. I mean I would basically say what I'm doing every day - being of service to other people, seeing how I can help other people through my podcast or through my books or through my website. Help them find something that's meaningful and important to them - usually starting with people's health 'cause when your mind is healthy and your body's healthy, then you tend to be more concerned about the world. So, yeah, I mean... same answer as before (laughs). 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

I think it's kinda like the butterfly effect. I feel like everybody has an impact. I think it can even narrow down to our thoughts. I used to always focus on my words having impact, but now I realize it goes even deeper than that - to just even how you're perceiving people or how you're perceiving the world. I believe in the law of attraction, so if you believe the world's a negative place, you're gonna experience that and the people around you are probably gonna react to that feeling or thought. So, everything's energy. So, we all have an impact on each other - down to the smallest thing of just throwing a piece of trash on the ground. 'Cause that could make or break someone else's day. 

Why do you have the concern for the planet, for the health of others, for your relationships? To what end? What does it all mean?

I don't feel like there's an end. It's just who I am, how I resonate in my vibration - the core of who I am. I mean, I guess I could liken it to a flower. Flowers are beautiful and they just shine because they shine. So, for me, I don't feel like I have an agenda every day when I get up to like, I need to make the world a better place because I don't really even feel like that works. I feel like it's more because I feel good inside and it starts there. So, it starts with my meditation every day - my visualizations - and then my heart's just open so I want to care about other people and I want to interact with people that feel good. So, I'm drawn to that. Like people like Cate - she's happy and joyful and playful. Those are the kind of people I become friends with and then the two of us start beaming and then we meet someone else and they come into our circle and, you know, it just becomes this ripple effect, I guess. But it's not because I'm trying... I mean I have my good days and bad days, but the core of who I am when I get up and I start my day is like, How can I bring joy today? How can I find joy? How can I be of service?

What does it mean to you to be human and part of this vast community with all these differing opinions and values?

You know, I've kind of started to change my perspective on that recently a little bit. Feeling like I'm not really sure where I actually come from; if I come from a star seed or if I'm... I don't know what the intention of me being put on this planet, but I do know that everybody that's here is important for whatever reason. So, it's not my job to say whether Trump should be doing what he's doing or not doing what he's doing. And, again, I think it comes back to me for the law of attraction - if I focus on what's right in the world - so I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about everybody on the planet. But I guess I just focus on my community around me. Before the world was so big and we knew what was happening in Australia every day. I like the tribal feeling of just... instead of checking the weather, just looking outside and seeing what kind of day it is. Or instead of reading the news, going out to ecstatic dance or to a coffee shop and just seeing what happens in my small world. 'Cause global's just too big for me. Like, I care but it's just too big for me. 'Cause it can be too easy for me to... if I read the paper and start focusing on somebody that something horrible happened to - especially children or even animals - that could make my day go completely differently. And I'd rather just stay in the small world that I'm in and whatever's supposed to come into my field is supposed to come into my field. I'm not gonna go looking for trouble, basically (laughs). So, I guess I try and keep my world smaller as opposed to like worrying about the whole globe all the time. 

You don't go seeking out trouble, but there's plenty of it around. Do you have or do you feel a sense of responsibility to affect positive change? And then how does your previous answer mesh up with what you said about how the planet concerns you?

Well, I mean, if someone's not healthy in their mind, that's where you gotta start. Someone that eats a healthy diet - which I teach people to do and I affect them through everything I post on Instagram or whatever I'm doing in my world - if someone has a really unhealthy mind filled with sugar and junk food, they're not gonna be a good person in the world. Or, possibly. So the way that I affect change is just by starting with myself - ripple effect. Like, I'm not going out trying to change or fix people 'cause it's not possible. They have to come to me or they have to be looking for it. Again, law of attraction: that which is like itself is attracted. So, I draw people to me that are attracted to what I'm doing and then I help from there.

I mean, every day I'm posting free information, free podcasts, free, free, free, free, free, free - how to change your life. Start with a fast. Start with one day of skipping meals. Start with a meditation for ten minutes, you know? That's how I affect change - just getting people to start thinking possibly like one little, small thing they can to starting that growth, expansion. But again, I don't feel like it's my job to change anybody. It's not what I'm here for. I know.

What are you here for?

I'm here if people need help and they want information and they want... I'm just here to be the best person I can be on the planet, but I'm not out trying to fix people or fix situations even. To me, in my mind, it doesn't work that way. That's just how I... and then maybe someone else can go and volunteer or do what they're doing. Mine is the way I put out information is just from my core. 

Well, this is unusually quick. So, do you have anything else that you'd like to say?

Well, what's the core of what you're getting to with this, I guess? I'm still not super clear. Just seeing how people live in the world or...?

At this point most people now what's going on here, but this is about community, it's about what we mean to each other as individuals, it's how we function, it's what are we supposed to do about what is wrong and how we're supposed to take care of each other. And then my own personal sense of curiosity towards all the people that I interact with. 

So, your path and my path may not have ever crossed had it not been for Cate or had it not been for the project or had it not been for an infinite number of other things, but now that we've met I care about you, I care about how our paths do intersect, and I care about what happens from here. And then I care about all the things that happen from our meeting, like all the way through the rest of my life. So, this project is about introducing us to each other because we often don't do this. We say, "Hi. How's the weather? How's your day? What a fun yoga class that was! See you next week." Right? But we don't sit down and ask questions. We don't interview each other. We don't dive very deep. So, this is an exercise in doing that. Especially moving into year three - I sent you all that information - I want this to grow in a different way and have a lot more impact than it has been having. So, this last question was just an opportunity for you to put your closing remarks on the record. 

Okay, well I guess, for me, what's been coming into my field - I don't even know how long now - but is kindness. I think that's the best way we can impact people and impact their day is saying something, going out of our way even in the grocery store or at a bank, How's your day? What's going on with you? And that is what I love about living in Bend. People seem to care a lot more. And that's why I love living here. But I feel like that can really have an impact. Like you were asking earlier, How do I want to make a difference in the world? If I'm kind to someone - just go out of my way to be caring and extra kind and to really honestly care about their day - then that could change how their whole trajectory of their day goes. Which could impact someone who might be depressed and contemplating suicide for all we know. Again, I guess it just comes back to the ripple effect. We have control over this and what comes out of our mouth and what we're doing and saying and the rest - it's energy. We just affect people energetically around us. So, to me, I guess my biggest thing is just to be kind. And to think about what our impact is on people as we go through our day. Like picking up that piece of trash or stopping at the stop sign for someone else to go first. Or on and on - letting someone go ahead of you in line that has one item. Or giving someone a compliment - an honest compliment - when you see them. Maybe you're the 10th person in line and they seem flustered and just stopping for a moment just to care about them. So even though my days tend to be super busy and I've got a lot on my mind, I still try and think about what other people are experiencing and going through. 

I've been ending this interviews by allowing you to ask me a question. You already got one, but if you have anything in mind, you can ask me a question and then we'll close it out. 

Well, I would love just to hear what the thread has been for you of these people that you've interviewed. What has been a big impact on you - maybe something that you learned from someone that you hadn't thought of before or if it changed your perspective on anything?

ACT: I guess I learn a little something from everybody - not to sound trite. I get a little nugget from everybody. There's different things that come from this - individual levels of friendships and acquaintance levels bump up a few notches and one thing leads to another. 

The intention for me was to find the good because unlike you I'm pretty weighted down by the state of the world and the way we often treat each other. Those are the things that I tend to notice first or the things that ruffle my feathers. And so life becomes difficult in that way. If that's what you're seeing and you are a person that cares deeply, then it's hard for that not to affect you. But I also know that that's not the only thing happening. Right? So, I wanted to go out and find the good, share that information with whoever's willing to click on the website or listen to the podcast, and then go on to the next and the next - kind of build the case for positivity. 

So, I glean little bits from everybody, but on the whole, this is changing my life for the better one interview at a time. And then maybe one day I wake up and I look out and I just start to see the good things. And I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only person that's paying attention to the shitty stuff that's going on in the world, so maybe it starts to affect all those people, too. And then maybe the more good we see the more good we do and then the better it all gets. To what end? Again, like you, who knows to what end. It could all end tomorrow. I don't really know. Nobody really knows. I guess the short answer is this is having a profound impact on me but just a little bit at a time. 

EL: Like you say, we all influence each other. Have you found Bend or another place... people different in different places or in the end do you feel like everybody's kind of similar? 

ACT: Oh, I think in general people are very similar but all the places I've spent time in definitely have their own aroma or personality. So Bend's got something different, for sure. I think there's a lot of people who are well-off here and that gives off a certain vibe. And part of what I wonder is if people create bubbles for themselves and they don't want to engage with the negativity because they don't want to have to think about it. Whereas I'm not in that position - I'm not in a well-off... relatively speaking... I'm not living in extreme poverty, but I've had a life full of many hardships and I know what's under the bed and what's in the closet - so I don't turn a blind eye to it. So, I wonder about some of the clashes that are happening here right now. But it's not just here. It's wherever you go and you start looking, you're gonna find the differences and the similarities. 

EL: Do you feel like what you're looking for expands? Like if you're looking for the good in people, you find more of that?

ACT: Well, certainly through the project. Sitting down and asking what they care about provides an opportunity to learn about what they care about. Whereas if I just get cut off by somebody in traffic, I'm never gonna know. But the more stories I hear about what people care about, the more I can assume that that person that cut me off in traffic probably has something good to offer, too. 

EL: Mmhmmm. and usually it has nothing to do with you. (Laughs) It always has nothing to do with you. They don't even know you. So, we can take things so personally. And that's what I'm learning, too. I think meditation has helped me a lot because I am learning to be more of a witness versus taking things at this level. Even if someone that I know says something, I could take that in. I could take it personally and make it completely change my opinion of them and myself or I could see if I can change the story in my mind. Do you know who Byron Katie is? She talks about questioning your own thoughts. Is that true? Does that person really think that about me? And then in the end, we turn it around on ourselves. And it's just interesting because so much of what's going on in the world usually has nothing to do with other people, it's our own... for me, I feel like the more I focus on what's happening, then I help that expand. Start that snowball rolling and then affecting people in that way. Versus, Oh my god! Did you hear the shitty thing that happened over on the other side of the world? And then that person who was having a good day suddenly is like, Oh, shit. Whether they can do anything about it in that moment or not. 

After Cate Hollister and I reconnected at the end of the year exhibition I had, she put me in touch with Elaina. I can't say exactly what caused it, whether it was her forgetting about our first appointment or my forgetting my gear on the way to our rescheduled meeting or something else entirely, but I would use the word strained to describe our time together.

Mandy Butera

I first met Mandy through Shanan Kelley the night I was a guest on The Night Light Show. Shanan auctioned off some T-shirts that I designed and Mandy “won” one for a generous sum. Then, a short time after that, Alyson Brown officially recommended Mandy to this project. It took us some time to meet as I was compiling all of the 2018 interviews into a book and having an exhibition and all that jazz. I am very glad to start off the third year of this project with Mandy and I’m very happy to introduce you to her as the first interview for 2019. She’s a friendly, smiling, warm, caring, thoughtful, and kind lady with a very handsome dog named Booker. We met for this interview above Forge Humanity where she had a pop-up version of her shop Wren and Wild while waiting for her new location to become available. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name is Mandy Butera and I am a mother and a new grandmother - or about to be another new grandmother. My daughter just got married, so she just inherited two kids and then my other daughter's having a baby, so I'm excited about that. And a little flipped out by it because you realize you're aging (laughs). Time goes on. I'm a wife, entrepreneur - I have my own business - a yoga teacher, an advanced arial yoga teacher. Yeah, I'm all those things. I'm lots of things. Depends on the day. I'm a dog mom to Booker, which is the best thing (laughs) - he's easy. Happy dog. 

What concerns you and then what motivates you to do something about it? 

I'm concerned that small business is at risk for many people. I look at the Amazon world and the social media world and the disconnect between people and ordering goods that have no connection to them or being on social media and not really being with people and connecting with people. I'm worried that that's at risk. I think you see it in our current political climate, you know, that there's a lot of anger out there and people are willing to just say anything to anybody, but they're not really connected to people. And I think that if we were all really connected to people a lot of these things wouldn't happen because we'd have a better understanding of who somebody is that's sitting in front of us. 

So, I take that back to small business in that being in a small business, I've seen so much - here in Bend, specifically - in that people have lost their leases over the last year - so many business - due to the hiking of lease rates. There's two sides: owners of businesses need to be able to pay their taxes and make their money and, at the same time, small businesses are being shut out or shut down because they can't afford the lease rates. And I still know of a lot of businesses in town that are at jeopardy for that.

And I take that back and equate that to Amazon, for instance, because it's so easy - the click of a button - just to buy something from your home. You can sit in your pajamas and do that. Or you could go out and meet people in your community and make connections with people and help support the people that are in your community so that we have a thriving town. That it isn't just about a small percentage of people thriving here, but more people. 

So, I see that as, from a small business perspective of where I'm at, in being able to support people in that manner. So, what am I doing about that? I've recently started mentoring other women who have small business 'cause I've been in business for a really long time - was an account executive for over 25 years with Estée Lauder Corporation and I worked for Macy's as a buyer. So I have all this experience and this knowledge, which is great and it's been really successful for my business, but I feel like that I need to connect with other women in this community and help them to drive business. And help them to forge a path for themselves and maybe learn something new or not make the mistakes that I've made and try and get them going forward. And so, I think that if I can help other women to be successful in that arena, then that's even more connection out in our neighborhoods and in our community to help people. 

Do you have a sense of purpose or a compulsion to live with intention?

Yeah, for sure. Well, my purpose right now is really about driving my business into a new location and it's almost just like tunnel vision. I was just thinking the other day I need to go out and hang out with some people (laughs) and connect and do what I know that that's my sense of purpose - to connect with the community. To just find the time. I definitely have a sense of purpose every day that I wake up. And when I come in here it's to connect with whoever comes into the building. To really stop and listen to them. I'm very chatty - I'll find out if they live here or if they don't live here, what are they doing for the holidays - but my sense of purpose is really to connect one-on-one with people. 'Cause that makes me feel good. You know, I feel like I'm part of something. 

Live with intention - yeah, definitely. Both my husband and I live very intentionally, very mindfully, in that we live a very simple life. We drive 10-year-old cars and we're not flashy. We don't need things to make us happy. Our intention is to have each other to be happy and to live a really nice life that way. Because I have found over time having all the things doesn't matter, but having people and love and connection in your life - that's what matters. And then I'm very careful about who I choose to be friends with and connect with, too, in that deeper level because I want good, healthy relationships. 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

Everything. I mean, we're all interconnected. What scares me are the people that aren't connected - that don't mean anything to other people. You see the shootings in the high schools or in the malls or in businesses. You see the disconnect of people that are addicted to drugs because they don't have a connection. And so I think that we are all interconnected and we're only as good as we're all connected together. And when someone doesn't feel connected or is lonely or is scared or addicted or angry, that's an indication of our community. And how are we embracing and holding people and holding space for people?

What does it mean to you to be human and part of such a vast community with so many differing opinions and agendas?

It's messy, isn't it? (Laughs) It's really messy. I think to be human is just to listen and to just be there for people. It's hard to be human sometimes. Sometimes it's so stressful. And we all go through our ups and our downs and it can be very messy and difficult. And at the other end, it can be super happy and exciting. But I think it's finding that place of peace and calm that whichever way the pendulum swings for the day, that you're set and in place and able to handle whatever comes at you. 

Do you have a responsibility to affect positive change? And why?

I feel personally feel responsibility to affect positive change. And I think one small way that I do it now is through educating and advocating for people to use products that are clean; that don't have chemicals in them; that aren't gonna cause issues later in life. There are so many studies about parabens and sulfates and phthalates. So, for me, I feel like I'm an agent of change for positivity and finding a way to use products that are just as effective as things that are loaded with chemicals. So for me personally, that's my mission right now is to help educate people to find a way to take care of themselves in a better stance. 

And I also think that we, in a more global or bigger picture, we always have to be an agent for positivity and for good change or where are we gonna be, you know, ten years from now? If you look at the whole climate change and people believing or not believing in it, we have to go out and be positive agents of change in order to affect change. Negative - we see it now and I don't think it works. Scare tactics don't work for people. We don't want to scare people into doing something because that's not long-lasting change. In the short-term, yeah, you can probably scare somebody into something, but it isn't going to change at the core of what the issue is. If you can find a way positively to do it so that it is a constant feel-good down the road - you know, that I made this change and these things happened - then it's great. But if it's just a negative scare at the beginning, you're gonna lose half your audience and the other half are scared. And who wants to walk around scared? Like, if you eat a strawberry with pesticides on it, are you gonna walk around feeling horrible all day? Or could you find a positive way to eat something else without pesticides - I guess would be a simple example - that makes you feel good?

It's almost like this sense of responsibility or this acknowledgement that we've been doing things maybe not the best way is new. I don't know if that's just because I'm in the here and now and that's what I am seeing or if that is the case. For so long we've been filling up the world and doing our thing and maybe not living without intention but kind of just living. But now it seems like there's a big movement towards recognizing that we can't just live anymore, we have to live in a particular way. I wonder if we can get ahead of it. 

It's tough. I spent a couple years flying over to Africa - Tanzania; I helped establish a children's pediatric oncology and I did some nutrition for them. And you see people over there who have nothing. These mamas walked in miles and miles with their babies who have huge lumps on their faces and stuff. The whole family comes in and they literally have nothing - nowhere to live, nowhere to stay - but they're happy because they're taking care of each other. They're their own little community and they're holding each other and being at peace with that. And they're good with it. The kids are happy - they're hilarious. They have nothing and they're just so happy 'cause they just see you as a person and they just want to connect and be with you. 

So, when I came back from that... I think it was the Olympics or something and the Olympian athletes were complaining there were no doors - do you remember that whole thing? Are you kidding me? You're an Olympian athlete at the highest echelon of what you do and you're concerned you don't have a door?! And I just came from this place where they don't even have a building, right, but they're happy. What is it that we can do for ourselves to create that internal happiness without all the things? And I think all the things and all the trappings and all that stuff is what gets in the way of communities bonding together and finding true connection and happiness. 

Do you have anything else you'd like to say?

I think we live in an amazing community, but I think that there's some... there's still a little bit of the haves and the have-nots and how can we bind more? There's some really good community work being done - I can name several of them that I think are amazing - but I think that we still have so much more work to do. It can be a tough place for people to live here. Not being able to afford rent or being able to find a job that pays enough to pay the rent and that kind of stuff. So I think there's just still a lot of community work to be done around that that I'm hoping will happen like in the next year. The economy's been good, but I think there's gonna be a change, you know, and I would hate for the city to go back to where it was in 2008 or 2007. But how can we manifest some really positive change to keep people employed and happy and functioning?

Do you have anything that you want to ask me?

I love that you did a book on it. Was that your first book? 

ACT: I've done two so far. 

MB: What inspired you to do all this? 

ACT: Oh, man. That's quite a question. There's things that I just can't explain - these compulsions or senses, right? Almost like the purpose question. I think it's difficult to answer the question of having a sense of purpose without it having some sort of weird divine or spiritual beginning. And I don't necessarily want to talk about that 'cause that stuff is so unknown and so subjective, but I do have something in me that I can't explain that makes me want to know people around me. And it's grown, too. It's almost like I think that we owe it to each other. And of course everybody's got their different opinions on these things, but when I'm walking down the street, my head's up not just to see where I'm going but just for the chance that I'll make eye contact with someone. I know that it makes me feel a certain way and so I think it probably makes somebody else feel a certain way to be seen, to be acknowledged - even if it's nonverbal. And so I want to know more and more about the people around me. I want to know about what makes this community and this nation and this world function and I want it to be healthier than it is. Because I know about my own pains and my own frustrations and my own failures and I know a lot of them come from these interpersonal connections or missed connections. 

So maybe everybody doesn't have this curiosity or this bold tendency to meet with people and then share it with everybody else, but for some reason that came to me. Many years ago I started a project called I Heart Strangers. I was living in Boston and migrated out to Denver in the process. But I went out in the street and I introduced myself to a stranger every day and made their portrait on the spot and then wrote about our exchange together. I did that every day for a year and a half and I quit that project feeling really heavy and feeling like I was kind of throwing away this really cool project. So for the last six years or so, before starting this project, I had this kind of writer's block and I had this really nagging, gnawing frustration about what I was gonna be as a photographer and when I moved here, just two weeks afterwards, the idea for A Community Thread just landed on me. And because of doing something like this in the past, I recognized what it was and I just immediately set it in motion. So, long, convoluted answer, but I'm doing the project because I want to but I also think it's really necessary. These connections that we make are necessary. And maybe this doesn't end with our being best friends, right, but it could. And I think that's much more likely if you try to do something like make a connection with someone than it is if you don't. 

MB: I love what you said about just walking down the street with your head up - not buried in your phone... Booker's like an agent of positive change. You walk around with Booker and everybody has to stop and pet him and talk to him. And it makes people happy and then you get to connect with people. It's very powerful to watch it 'cause you can totally make somebody's day. He will get so excited I've seen people cry because they're just so excited about his excitement - it's really cute. The other thing of what you said - just walking down the street, meeting people - I feel like that all the time. You get to meet people. You never know like, who are they? I love to know people's stories - Who are you? Where are you from? What are you doing? What are you doing walking down the street? Why'd you come in here today? What's happening? That's life. That's the good stuff right there. Yeah. 

I first met Mandy through Shanan Kelley the night I was a guest on The Night Light Show. Shanan auctioned off some T-shirts that I designed and Mandy "won" one for a generous sum. Then, a short time after that, Alyson Brown officially recommended Mandy to this project.

Amy Wright

As I mentioned in the last interview, Jill Rose immediately mentioned Courtney and Amy when I asked her to think of someone to refer to the project and I can see why. Amy marks the final interview for the second year of A Community Thread. So, she's the 60th for this year and the 110th since I began doing this. And I couldn’t have asked for a better way to wrap up this year. Amy’s heart and compassion shine through all of what she says below. She’s got zest and fire and an ever-ready smile, too. This was another of the more conversational interviews - a sign of what I hope is to become more regular in the future.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, I'm a boss. I describe myself as just hardworking. Definitely like to have fun. Try not to take things too seriously. But I definitely find myself taking the small things seriously. And I think that that's just expectations. Especially in this business. The reason why I say I'm a boss is 'cause I work 60, 70 hours a week, but it's a seven day a week job. And I've got a lot that work with us and they haven't been doing this very long and it's instilling those practices of repetition and paying attention and focus. That's something I pride myself on - hugely - when I'm working; when I'm out in the world; when I'm hiking; when I'm even just in a grocery store with other people. Trying to be present and trying to be focused. I feel like that's so important. And I feel like it's kind of a lost art form as far as just a way to live. You know? So, yeah, just trying to be as present and responsible as possible. I have this (laughs) sort of mantra, if you will, I just never want to be embarrassed (laughs). So, you cover all your bases. You watch out for yourself. You watch out when you're backing up. You watch out for other people. Just don't embarrass yourself (laughs). 

I think it comes from sports. That was pretty much my first love. Aside from food, sports was everything. I played basketball and soccer since I was five until I graduated college and it was just what I did. I was always part of a team. And that's what restaurants are for me now; that's what I lead now is a team. Not be cheesy, but I'm like the quarterback so I have to pay attention all the time. It all falls down on me. But that's how I feel when I'm out in the world, too. Even talking about being at a grocery store - there's just so much shit that can go wrong. You know? And if you're on your toes and you're constantly present then it's not gonna fall on you. And you can be helpful, which I think is important. I think people need to be more helpful; open doors for other people; just tell people that they look great; and tell people you love them; just be as 100% there as you can. It's so important. Helping each other is all we can do anymore. Really.

What matters to you or what motivates you?

My wife motivates me. My sister. My friends. Where I've been in the past. Not having a lot growing up. Being homeless growing up. Like, definitely never want to be in that spot again. Which wasn't my plan - it wasn't on me, anyways. It was just my parents being whacky and making stupid decisions and taking for granted that we lived in a super nice climate so, Hey, let's just live in this mobile park for a couple years and save some money. Which they just spent on drinking and partying and things like that. What motivates me is just to kind of stay above water, you know? To stay ahead of the game. To not necessarily save a bunch of money because I haven't been able to do that yet with owning a small business, but just having what I need and being capable of living with less. That's a huge motivation, especially in the last five years - realizing my time is the most valuable thing. Not the things that I have. Not the house that I have. Not the car that I have. Which I love all those things, but just being able to experience more is a huge motivation. Totally.

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart? 

Just hate - people hating on people just for no reason. I'm not even sure where that comes from because it feels like there's just huge division right now. Not even just politically, but just in life in general. I feel like there's this huge division between people that like actually give a shit about other people and the fact that other people have their lives and other people do what they do and if it doesn't fit what they do or what they live or how they live or what their freakin' church that they go to says - it's hate. 

There's not enough tolerance anymore. And tolerance almost seems like it's... what's a good word for it... tolerance seems like it's a negotiation. Whereas I'm not tolerant of people that aren't tolerant (laughs). I think we've gotten to this point where we have to be more vigilant - folks that are more tolerant have to be more vigilant against those that aren't and speak up for the ones that aren't. Like what's happening with transphobia - just speaking about recent events - and the fact that they want to write them out is just unbelievable. It's like thank god I don't feel that way. You know what I mean? Thank god you don't feel that way. Thank god you're happy with being a man. Thank god I'm happy with being a woman. Even though I'm a tomboy gay lesbian, at least I feel so comfortable in my skin. And the fact that there's just so many that don't feel comfortable in their skin and our government is now saying that they don't even want to recognize that they have a choice? You have to just take what you're given? There's not freedom there. That's taking away complete freedom of a minority group. I mean, that's just so scary. That's one of the scariest things that's happening 'cause it's bullying, too. It just goes along with the tolerance. It's like okay, because we don't believe in their god and their bible and it says man/woman woman/man bullshit, like that everybody has to do that? I feel like us as allies have to start sticking up for groups like that. Yeah, it's just scary. Hate. It's just so frightening. 'Cause it's basically the end, I think. Once you get to a point where the majority of people are hateful to the minority of people, I mean that's like the end of times in my opinion. So, it's scary. That's what scares me. 

What do mean to each other - person to person? 

I mean, we're neighbors. We're community members. We're definitely supposed to help each other. I feel that. It's like everybody's got something they can contribute. I think that selling food and selling yoga is a good thing, but I also think talking truth and connecting with folks like yourself that is willing to put himself out there - which you're doing - and just create a dialogue that we don't normally get to do in a normal life. You know? Create that setting. I feel like that can happen anytime. There's a funny thing that happens here - we call our front counter the Truth Desk. It's just funny, either food or yoga - people just come up to it and sometimes they just say something so random. It seems random because you're serving them lunch or you're gonna teach 'em a yoga class and they're like, Oh man, I just had the worse day. This happened, that happened. And when you answer them and talk to them and reciprocate what they're saying and feel their pain or whatever strife happened, you just gotta be like, Yeah, this is why we're doing this. Sure, serving people food, serving people yoga, sitting down having an interview with somebody is super important, but what's more important is just being there for each other. Because when the shit hits the fan, if you don't have those communications and you don't have those connections with people, then what are you gonna do? We have to form as many bonds as we can as often as we can with like-minded people. I think that's the only way that we're gonna be successful. Not to be dramatic, but as humanity, I feel like that's our greatest success is our compassion. And the willingness to talk and the willingness to console and the willingness to listen. I feel like that's the best thing we have going for us. 

On the grander scheme, what does it mean to be part of community - to be in this with so many others?

It sometimes feels like a big responsibility to be present like that. To be ready. To be yourself, but to also see that other people are different. But I feel like the meaning of community is to show up and to support anyway you can each other and your passions. Whether that's coming here and getting lunch or it's going to see Shanan's show or going to see Jesse's movie. Those things are what creates a community and what makes a community strong is the support. It's going and sitting in the audience. You know? And going and buying a drink or a coffee from your favorite place. Small business, teachers, people that work in our field of sort of nurturing people's economic needs, food needs, you name it - just going and showing up for each other is what it means to be a community.

It's really difficult for me to understand the whole realm of social injustice. On a daily basis I encounter someone that pisses me off, but I don't want take them and everyone like them and put them into a group and take away their rights. What are your thoughts on this? What can you do about it? And at the end of the day, what clears your conscience and allows you to sleep at night and get up the next day and keep going?

I feel like social injustice has become a really broad topic because there are so many minorities that are being persecuted at this time by whatever - majority, by the government, whatever. But I feel like the biggest ones are fueled by racism. I don't know why white people are afraid of black people. It's the scariest thing. It's the saddest thing. It's rampant. Especially in the South. Especially in big cities. Classism is the same. Why people are afraid of poor people - I have no idea. It happens on a daily basis. You see a homeless person and you're like, Is my door locked? They're not gonna do anything to you! When was the last time that's happened?! They're not the ones that are the aggressors. They're not the ones that are out there murdering people and beating people. It's racism. It's classism. And I completely believe it comes from this fear and consumption idea that our government has instilled in our brains. America only works because so many people are afraid of the government and they stay at this low level. They don't vote. They're poorly educated. They're poorly nourished - which is an even bigger problem, in my opinion. And they fight wars for 'em. They're loyal to 'em for some un-godly-known reason. You think about it, it's the shittiest truck you see in town driving around with that huge American flag. You know what I mean? It's not this beautiful Range Rover with an American flag on the back. It's fear and consumption. Keep 'em dumb. Keep 'em buying shit at Walmart. Keep 'em down and out. And that's where it starts. That's where social injustice starts is with the big guys. You know? And this is just proof. It's beat into us to just buy shit and be afraid of your government. Buy shit, be afraid. Buy shit, be afraid.  

Here's how I sleep at night. Here's the things that I do just to make myself feel better. We live in this in bubble, as you know. It's this tiny, little bubble of a place. It's fucking beautiful - we're so lucky. So happy that we all made this decision to move here. The way that I feel better about it is there are so many people trying to make it better. You know? The Women's March, Black Lives Matter, The World Muse here in town. I have some friends that are soccer players that travel the world through sports diplomacy trying to help folks. Just donate to those people. As much as I can. Give my space to Jesse who's making this film about the skatepark in Jordan. Just do as much as you can to help other people help other people. You definitely have to hold each other's hands to get across this fucking huge crevasse. And that's the only way to do it. I mean, we don't have so many resources as they do. Fuck those people. Fuck their lawyering 'cause that's how they've gotten to where they are. That's how they've stolen all these elections is these fucking tactics. And support the ACLU. Support Human Rights Campaign. Support those people. That's all we can do. And then just do your art. That's the only way I can sleep at night, honestly. I just try and make good food. My wife tries to teach good yoga. We just try and be nice. But, I mean, if it was up to me, I'd quit our jobs and go camp in front of the White House until they left. You know what I mean? I feel like if we could do that it might change something, but I feel like we're better sort of arming ourselves with each other. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Yeah, I do. I feel like my sense of purpose is just to be myself as 100% as I can. We talked a little bit about food - that's my latest thing is just to remind people. I think a lot of people do know, but I think a lot of people don't know the importance of food. The importance of kids eating good food. It's such a weird thing. I was a super picky kid growing up - didn't like a lot of foods. And I really understand why I did that, though. I was sort of protesting. It was this way for me to protest the craziness that was going on around me. But I got sick from it. And I just recently found out that I was allergic to dairy. And it explains so much of my sickness as a young adult. And now that I'm in my 40s - now I finally find out. I just think it's so important for people to eat right and take care of themselves and move their bodies and that's just what I want to focus on. Just being there to offer something good. Being there to be like, Hey, this is actually good for you. It's better for you. It tastes good! And just start there. Just start somewhere as simple as that. And then be willing to go deeper if I have to. But just keeping the focus on that is really important to me right now. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

Time! I wish there was 28 hours in a day. I would read more. I just fall asleep when I read now 'cause I'm so tired. I used to read so much - in college, adolescence - I loved it. I would read a lot more. I would be outdoors more. I would try and come up with more recipes. I feel like I don't have enough time to do that right now. I would talk to more people. I would try and make more social events happen. You know how it is if you've worked in a restaurant before - it's a very social job. So once the day's over you're like, I don't know if I can go out. I don't know if I can actually put the energy into that. I would carve out some time to do that. Because every time I do I have so much fun. Connecting with people in a fun, non-emotional way is really cool. I like that. And it's so useful. It's like energy. Connecting with people. Just doing something random like going for a hike or watching a sports event or having dinner - it actually gives you so much energy. Especially when they're people that you care about. But finding that time is hard sometimes. It's definitely hard. But we try. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put on the record?

Yeah. Thanks for the doing this. That's definitely what I want to say. It's always good to talk to guys - men - and hear their sensitivity. And the willingness to the put the time and effort into something like this is pretty cool. I think it's neat what you're doing and I appreciate it, for sure. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me?

Do you want to turn this into a mixed-media sort of thing? Have you thought about doing audio with visual? And have you ever thought about doing live versions of it? 

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Yeah. This could be a long, long, long answer. It's extremely rare that I have a specific and detailed plan - and not out of a sense of laziness or irresponsibility - I think it's really neat to see how things form naturally. So, I'm open to lots of things about this project. And I'm trying to come up with ways. As a one-man show, there's only so many things that I can do with my energy and it being not financially sustainable - buying gear is difficult. There are a lot of challenges in that way, which I'm okay with for a bit longer. I want to find ways to make this more compelling. People are always asking me about video and I'm not really personally all that drawn to video. I really like photography. I really like portraiture. I think looking at somebody in the eye - being forced to just stare at someone staring back at you - can be really powerful. 

But one of the projects right now that I find really, really cool - and it's obviously with totally different weight and funding and popularity - Letterman's newest program, My Next Guest Needs No Introduction. If I could do it, I'd blend that platform - a live discussion in front of an audience. I think that's so powerful and I don't think it's only interesting because it's famous people. I think it's fascinating to hear people and look at people. Joe Rogan is doing really neat stuff. He's got a really cool platform.

I definitely wish it was more than what it is. And I'm also keen on it being more than just me. But that whole growth is an enigma. I don't know what to force. I don't know what to wait on. And I don't know what more I can do. Little tweaks, better questions, diving in. We were talking about making it more conversational and I think this interview, in particular, was a really good example of what that might look like. That's a really interesting way to close out year two. But, anyway, I'm open to suggestions and very excited about it growing and changing and evolving. 

As I mentioned in the last interview, Jill Rose immediately mentioned Courtney and Amy when I asked her to think of someone to refer to the project and I can see why. Amy marks the final interview for the second year of A Community Thread.

Courtney Wright

When I asked Jill to think of some folks to recommend she immediately named Courtney and Amy from Sunny Yoga Kitchen. I had met them both previously, but never in a very personal way, so I was excited for this chance. I put a little scheduling pressure on them as I was scrambling to get the last of this year’s interviews on the calendar so I could then work on the book and prepare photos for an exhibition and, thankfully, they responded quickly and with care. I met Courtney after hours at Sunny Yoga Kitchen and we chatted at one of their dining tables. I felt a very warm and loving connection with Courtney and was so happy that she answered the questions below from her heart. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

That's a fun question. Who am I? I am a human (laughs). I am a wife. I am energetic and a hard worker. I guess I would describe myself as someone who's really excited to be on this journey of life, but often finds the struggles, as everyone does, of anxiety and things like that. But I think the beauty in how life is so hard - we have to remember that that's why it's so great.

What matters to you or what motivates you?

Gosh, there are so many things that matter right now that I feel like are scarily not getting attention. So, things that motivate me on a grand scale are, of course, voting and doing our due diligence and supporting our community in that respect. Things that motivate me on a smaller level, I guess on our own little community level, is my day-in and day-out interaction with humans motivates me. I like that I work in an environment where I get to interact with people all day long and it's different every day. And so, that motivates me to be a positive moment in their life - no matter if I'm just serving them lunch or whatever it is. 

As a yoga teacher, I'm really motivated to help people understand the body that they're living in. I feel like that's my biggest role as a yoga teacher is to help them connect to who they are in that moment. So, that's kind of one of my roles that I really love and I am excited about. I don't think you often get the opportunity to help people understand their body and sort of give them a light on how to figure out, Oh, there's so much more going on! And being able to witness that is incredible - it's like super powerful. So, I guess, I'm motivated by trying to bring positivity into other people's life every day - even if it's just a small, little nugget (laughs). 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart? 

I'm so concerned about politics and what's leading this country right now. I'm so concerned that there's people that seem to be complacent about where we are. I'm concerned about the state of our environment. I'm concerned about the state in which people live - like how they feed themselves and treat themselves and what they think is important. It's so disheartening, I think, the way we've gotten disconnected to just the organic, natural state of being. And we've created a life that's really, really complicated. So, that's disheartening. It also can be exciting and inspiring when you see someone come out of that and find their power and their peace and whatever it is. But that's I think what scares me the most is that it seems that the path that we're on that is destructive on so many different levels is so obvious, but so not obvious to so many people. And I think it's scary to think about how we help them see it. I think some people can't see past the money or the mud or the this or the that and to the basic human needs - that’s disheartening. 

I feel like I see things like that on a every day level. Like, not just politics or what we're doing - of course that's just this time of year is so obviously about that - but I feel like I see it every day. It's such a crazy example, but a woman the other day came in and she wasn't feeling good and she was asking me about a few things and she was telling me that she drank LaCroix water and that that was the only water she drank. Like, she didn't even realize she had to drink water to feel good. And so how we've disconnected that even an adult wouldn't realize that just something as simple as drinking water is life and that we need that. You know, so things like that every day can be like, Oh my god. How do we help everyone (laughs) but still be a functioning, not at the bottom of the barrel human? 'Cause it can be really... it can be grinding, I guess, if you constantly let all of the disheartening things... But I think those things are the ones that makes me so... it's just such a simple thing that we can do! 

What do mean to each other - person to person? 

So much! It almost gives me goosebumps. I think to what we as a human and a human mean to each other has also gotten lost in a state that we've created our life - cell phones and this...  I think the connection between us has gotten really interestingly difficult. I think for a lot of people it's hard to just sit down and connect like this on a very simple level of whatever it would be. But I think what humans mean to another human is that basic needs - connection. We, as a human, crave connection. And someone - as opposed to a dog or a cat or an animal - we're also human. There's that, I'm the same, but different - that common ground I think is important. And I think people totally forget that. People don't remember that we're on the same level - we're cells and fibers and we're human. So I think what we mean to each other is more than what we realize we mean to each other. We mean life; we mean connection; we mean support for each other; intimacy, love - we need all that. We need humans to talk to and to, you know, ramble against or talk about. Amy and I always talk about it, but whenever I feel fussy or I don't really know what I'm feeling, I'll just start talking to her and we'll just like talk it out, talk it out, talk it out until I realize that maybe it wasn't even that one thing I was fussy about but something else. So I think that connection of being able to just like verbalize each other with each other and communicate is huge in helping even ourselves understand. Like, if we say something out loud to you then it, Oh! - I heard what I actually said or felt. So, being each other's soundboard; listening to each other. I think humans for each other are huge. 

I think of people with disabilities and things like that - it's harder for them to connect. Or learning disabilities or Asperger's - it's so important for those people to also have the same connections that an able-bodied person or whoever... I think we forget that we're huge for each other. We're everything, I guess. 

On the grander scale, what does it mean to you to be part of community?

It's such a good question because I feel like community is a big buzz word, but it's also a really poignant word - it carries a lot. For me, being a part of community means being a lesbian in the world and knowing that there's a community like that out here. So being part of that LGBTQ community. It's been parts of my life that are threaded through into the community. Like, I have friends from college or whatever - back in the day - that I still feel like are part of my community in just a really different way. They might live in a different state, halfway across the world or country, but it's still that support. I could call you after who knows how many years and it would just pick up like that. So, it's having that sort of thread of support no matter where you are. 

I think that community is more than just where you live. It's not just my neighbors and it's not just that. It's who you choose to support and create and bring into your community. I think it's like-minded people. I'm not gonna bring in people to my community who aren't supporting the same things I do - like human rights (laughs). So especially in this political climate, community to me are the people who are out there and who are doing the things for human rights and things like that. Voting for the right people that aren't just in it for money and things like that. So, yeah, in a broader range from just our small, little communities that we build every day, I think our labels get bigger. Like, being a gay person and there's my community. Or being in that and that's my community. I think it's fun that you can overlap threads of community. I feel like I have different communities which is cool. And some of them interthread. And sometimes I have to call on one community more and I'm really nurturing that and then sometimes the other community kinda comes out and is totally prevalent in different moments. 

What are your thoughts on how do you deal with the challenge of the people in your community that aren't necessarily like-minded?

It's hard because I guess you can't expect everyone to always be on the same page. I guess as an example of just our community here that we've built, I certainly have people come through the door that probably aren't on my page - of the same page politically. I think that I try to then connect on that human level. You know, treat them like a human. And I feel like I almost try to also be a better me so I show that who I am isn't this horrible thing if that's what they're thinking. Be extra welcoming. I try to be transparent about who I am and what I'm standing for and offering, but that's hard because eventually not everyone is gonna be in your community. And you don't need them to be and they've got their own. So I think eventually, before you lose all of your gumption, you have to draw the line and be like, They're not in my community and that's okay. 

But, man, we really do have to try to get something better connected because everything right now is just so extremely crazy in all the directions. Man, we really need to figure out a way to find that common ground again. It seems like there's just a lot boiling up. It is so much scarier than I had ever imagined. It's a lot of energy to hold up fighting. It's a lot. But I don't know how we find all that common ground for everybody because that's a lot. I don't know how we do it, but we need it. 

I don't understand the idea of social injustice and this grouping of people together to then mistreat them. In your day-to-day, what can you do about that?  

We have huge injustices in our life - in our society - racial injustices, gender injustices, transgender and so many things. I, on a daily basis, I try to be - god, and it's hard because you hear people say things that are so stereotypical - I try to be so non-stereotypical about anyone. Just human. See them as a human. And then I try to not engage if I hear someone generalize something that way. I don't respond to it - I'll try to take them another way. So in my just general interactions, it's like just diffuse and not give any power to the phrase or whatever it is. Man, but that's just my interactions with, you know, coming through the door. It's a fight every day to not... I mean, I don't turn the news on. I can't watch the news because it's so horrifying. So for my own sanity I choose not to so that I can sleep and drink water and have good night's rest and then pick up the next day and maybe I choose a battle and I sign a petition. It's like one thing can be done maybe at a time and I can give it some attention. And then I have to remember that I, myself, also just need... it's so much right now, I think, is what we're finding and feeling. And being a white person, it's not always directed to us, of course. It's minorities and things like that. There's not that many minorities in Bend, so it's like I wish we could just invite 'em all in and be a part of our community. I think it's just trying to create verbiage and trying to create... it's almost like you’re trying to create a city. I wish we had more of a city feel in Bend. Obviously we're growing and we're still a really small town, but more diversity, the better - would help everyone. 

We always joke that this is still the wild wild west. It still very much has that feel. We don't go East because it's Redneckville and being two lesbian women, we don't hike East. So, we make choices like that. We would love to go to the Steens mountains, but those are way East, so we'll take a posse of people. Sometimes we have to make decisions like that just for our personal safety living in this world. I may not be a minority on the color of my skin, but I am with my sexual orientation. So, you know, things like that. I just can't imagine in this world being... there are so many minorities... it would be so hard. It's so much harder for them. I don't even know what to do to help everybody. But I think on a just basic level, we just have to see each other as humans and we have to help other people see other people as humans. 

It's so hard to hear other people's banter. People in the world, you know, you hear it. And it's just like, Oh my god! And I think most people don't  even know what they're saying - or sometimes they don't. They're just like, Blah, blah. You know what I mean? I don't know. You have to think of it on an every day level. Sure, like you said, go fight your fight and go do your marches - those are so important - but we also have to have those really basic interactions every day that also can help that. (Sighs) We've got a lot to work on. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

I do have a sense of purpose. I felt for a long time that I needed to have a drive of purpose through like what your work is. Which is obviously huge because we work so much now because of the life we created. So you have to figure out how to make money and live. So, creating a job where I felt like I was doing something, giving something to others that I appreciated gave me a sense of purpose. But then I realized that more and more my sense of purpose sort of changed and I realized that you're not really going to get fulfilled by what your job is. Maybe you could, but things change. Your dreams change. Things change. But I think my sense of purpose changed down to just, again, peeling away the layers and being a human. And trying to allow myself to be a purposefully living human. So I'm trying to do things that are good for me - take a walk and enjoy the outdoors and feed myself something good. But I think the sense of purpose and the way that I have to give it towards something had changed. It's just the last couple years, I think, that the purpose was just to be what you are and be doing what you're doing. And sometimes that's really frustrating to me because I need to figure out what's next and then I get all in a tailspin and then I just have to be like, Okay. But this complicated life just is what we've created and this sense of just kind of coming back to being human feels really good. We go camping all the time and it just reinvigorates us. And so maybe that's my purpose (laughs) - to be outside. And then it fuels me up to be a good person to interact with later. I don't know. I'm not sure that my sense of purpose is for anything except for just to be what I am. And I think if I'm my best me, then I'm giving permission for other people to be them, no matter what it is - if we feel like crap, or if we feel great, or rambunctious, or quiet, or whatever it is. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

Time. Yeah. More time just to be (laughs). Be in the woods and be with my wife and be with our dog - just more time. Simple. I used to think that we would want more and more stuff - bigger house, bigger car... No, I just want less and more time. That's what it is. We say it all the time. We just want more time to be together just being human, playing outside and doing the things that make us happy - climbing a mountain, laughing, swimming, swinging, singing, seeing Phish shows (laughs). That's my community, too (laughs). 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

Community - I've been thinking a lot about that word since you proposed the talk - I think it means so much to so many people and I had thought about it so much and I think what I was reveling in - what I was understanding in my own thought process - was just that there are so many different communities that we can all be a part of. And the way that they change. And the way they support. And shift and fall apart and come back together. I know that one of our basic human needs is connection and I think that community is huge. I think it's basic on a cellular level. We crave it. Right down to animals and plants - we're just the same. And I think it can be a simple beauty to just recognize community. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me?

I would like to hear what you think community is. What's your vision of community?

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It's definitely something I really struggle with. In many regards this project is my journey to find one, but I'm making it very public. I guess I just don't believe that I'm the only one person that thinks like I think or feels like I feel. There's probably a lot of people that are really - even if they've decided to fill that void with something else - I think that they're either experiencing a lack of community or they are really looking for one. 

All these things come to my mind with the lifted-diesel-truck-black-smoke-in-my-face person and also with the Tesla driver and with these decisions to separate children from their families and these top-down but everybody along the way brutal decision-making things - sex trafficking and slavery - there's just so many things where I know that there are people behind all these decisions. And I know that there's people, of course, that are affected by them. What has happened where you can make these choices? When you're totally able to just disregard the well-being for everyone else along the way? 

When I can really be my best I think I'm part of a community with every human on the planet and every being, right? It's so much more difficult for me to find those people that if I could choose my community - if I could pick the people I wanted to be around. I see so many people that I would rather not be around. And that just leaves me feeling, like, odd. I feel strange about it. I've got way more questions than answers. And I feel alone. And that's tiresome and frustrating. So, I think I'm trying to figure out what community really means to me given all that. And given how much I care. It comes with deep feelings.

When I asked Jill to think of some folks to recommend she immediately named Courtney and Amy from Sunny Yoga Kitchen . I had met them both previously, but never in a very personal way, so I was excited for this chance.

Ian Trask

When I asked Barbara to recommend people to this project, she immediately mentioned her husband, Ian, who I had the chance to chat with briefly at Rose's house in the summer. We found some time that worked for both of us and then put something on the calendar and then we pushed that date around a bit. We eventually met at Ian's mother-in-law's house which is serving as the Trask basecamp while they work on their own home. And we dove right into meaningful conversation over some coffee and traded loads of stories and experiences before I turned the recorder on. Ian has an incredibly kind affect and finds easy access to his emotions and tears - a trait which I find very becoming - likely because I share it. Ian's brilliance and articulation seem to only be surpassed by his compassion. It was an absolute treat chatting with him. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name's Ian Trask. I am a human being. I have a large heart. Tend to be pretty heartfelt. Struggle with my own identity issues somewhat, but overall, I'm not ruthless in any way. I've done my best to be genuine and caring and honest and live in integrity with myself to the extent that I'm able. And I can honestly say that through my life, if nothing else, I've done that. 

Other than that, I have a lot of interests. I feel I've had - to date - a full life experience. I get bored easy, so I do things for a little while and then do different things. So, I've got to experience a lot of things. I feel fortunate for being born into the circumstance and then giving myself the permission to explore and experience many things. 

What matters to you or do you care about?

I care about my family and their well-being. I guess in the short list of values I care about honesty. I care and I certainly struggle with living in integrity - with knowing how I truly feel and then acting in accordance to support and align myself with that on a daily basis. In the large scope it's easy; in the minutia sometimes I'm capable of being very upset with people in traffic even though I'm the one who left late. I'm pretty human in those regards. But I care about our experience. I care about how we live and are able to sustain life on this planet. I have concerns around all that.

My background is in mechanical engineering. Again because I get bored easy, I've done a lot of different things and studied different things, so I have a perspective on that that causes me some grief when I watch what we do versus what we are capable of doing. So, yeah, I care about people and humanity in the large scope. And sometimes it's difficult for me to care in the minutia - in the individual level - to carry that and be in integrity with that on an individual basis. 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart? 

I feel that we've developed a culture that the socioeconomic pressures are to do certain things even though we know they are not in the best interest of our longterm quality of life. And that's difficult to watch. To know there's alternatives and watch how, for profit - mostly profit-driven reasons - we continually make very poor choices both on the small scale as consumers and on the larger scale as what is available to consume and what we promote into this circumstance. That's difficult for me. That upsets me. 

We have companies putting millions of dollars into making efficient cars, but our cars on average weigh 3,200 pounds; we on average weigh 160 pounds. So five percent of the energy goes to moving us and 95% to moving the car, so there's no efficient way to do that. That's just not possible. And we know how and have the technology to build low-mass cars that are safe and that would work and that would be practical and that would actually do what we need the car to do 80% of the time. And then we could get three or four or five times that efficiency that we're struggling so hard to get out of these vehicles. So, that isn't new technology; that's just a set of choices that the companies and the consumers are not making that would solve this problem we say we care about, but we're not doing it. So, that's just one example of the difference between what we do versus what we say we want to do. And this is driven by socioeconomic pressures for companies to make money doing what they do. That's hard to watch. 

What would you say we mean to each other - person to person? 

I think we're more alike than we... I feel I'm more alike than I'm willing to admit. So when I see any person, there's a part of me that can recognize that that is just like me. When I'm in really good spirits, when I'm having a good day, when I feel I'm clear of heart and mind simultaneously, that is obvious. And then it's obvious and easy for how to be. And then in other times, I struggle with perception and I tend to believe that we're all very similar so I would believe that the rest of us struggle with that, too. And that can be divisive and shift what we do towards things that are maybe not the best either for us or for society. 

Ultimately, I think that human beings have evolved to thrive in community. It was the only way we could survive, so that was selected for. So there's a baseline understanding that through shared values we build community and through community we can exist and that's the best for everyone. And that's the most fun, too. And yet, I've been enculturated to have other beliefs about how that is. 

What does it mean to you, personally, to be part of the greater community?

Well, two things. I struggle with feeling that I'm part of the greater community because of various things that I've done that tend to isolate myself from it. But, conceptually... yeah, I don't know how to answer that. Conceptually, I would like to think that the end of the day at the end of my life I added some more than I took from the experience of being here - that I had a positive impact even in some small way to the overall process. And I believe that we inherently feel that way and then we struggle to reconcile that with the requirements to what we have to do to exist. 

What is it that allows us to be hard on ourselves and to chastise ourselves for the things we do wrong, but slower to celebrate general accomplishments?

That's an interesting question and dilemma and it's kinda sad. I think we are enculturated in so many ways to not live, and let alone embrace, how and who we are - how we truly feel, how we really are. I was enculturated really to believe that all that is very secondary to that I have a good job or that I am responsible or that I'm not a criminal - which, part of that is valid. But I just don't think we're trained to embrace ourselves just for our goodness of being. And that's a pretty simple choice and I think it would add to the quality of each of our lives. It certainly would add to the quality of my life were I to do that more readily. So, that's interesting.

I don't understand the idea of social injustice in general. I don't know why we find these things to use to pit us against one another. And why we lord over people over things like eye color or skin tone or political affiliation or religion or sexual orientation. What's your role in a general day-to-day sense in this obliteration of social injustice or in the reparations? For the people that do care about these things or at least have the consciousness to acknowledge that it's there, what's it gonna take to actually do something about it?

Boy, on the large scale I don't know on that because as you stated it's something we are all aware of - mostly, I think we're all aware of it - and yet perhaps it's viewed as such... either we pretend that... I pretend that I'm not capable of that; I don't promote that; I don't take part in that so it's not my problem, which is wrong - a different misperception. Or that it's such a vast problem that there's nothing I can do about it - also a different misperception, though that may be a little closer to part of what I feel. I can say - and again I have to admit that this varies with the quality of my day - if I'm not having a good day, then unfortunately my processes focus more and more on me and less and less on the world at large. And I do my best to have good days and be present and be present with people. 

One of the things that I do and that I'm doing everything I can to impart to my daughter is that I acknowledge (this part I don't impart to her) that as a privileged white male, things are easier for me just every day of my life than for many people. And the one way that I'm able to acknowledge that is when I see people of color or people that are different, I do my best to respect them and look them in the eye and see them. And in very subtle ways - I'm not pushy about it - I hope that they're able to acknowledge that I see them. And that in that I recognize the differences between us in our struggles and paths and that they deserve the same respect, the same whatever that I expect as just a being. And then I'm, in my way - and I do this in a glance; I don't know how much comes across - but in my way, I apologize. 'Cause it is an injustice. And it's an injustice that I mostly don't feel. I've had little pockets of experiences where I have felt it and it's horribly disarming and I'm just aghast - How could you think that of me? And yet other people, just because of the color of their skin or where they live or how they speak, are shown that constantly. Or, you know, just the difference between men and women, how they are treated is wrong and incorrect and very unfortunate. So again, and it's easier as I've gotten older, I just really try to see people as people and in whatever small ways I can acknowledge them as and for just that. And that we share that.  

Do you have a sense of purpose and does that mean something to you?

I do and I have some real personal struggles with what I perceive as a lifeline struggle for me between what I've felt at least since I was probably nine - pretty young - was part of my purpose and what I've actually been able to realize and accomplish despite having all the opportunities and gifts and wherewithal to do better. So that's actually a personal challenge for me. But I do feel that - and I don't know if others feel that way about themselves - but I do feel that there's a purpose for me beyond just being here. Part of me probably really hopes that there's a purpose for me beyond just being here because if it's just being here then I'm... you know maybe I need to reconcile that and that just being here is an amazing privilege; it's this phenomenal experience to be in this human suit thing that I get to interact with the physical world. I have my own spiritual beliefs that this is not the beginning or the end of my life - I could be completely wrong with that - but I have those. And in that scope, then I see this as all the more precious as a momentary experience of physicality that is just amazing. 

I feel that I do. I don't feel that I've accomplished nearly what I'm capable of or would like to take part in, but I feel I do, yeah. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

Ease. Contentment with myself so that can shine back into the world. I think that our state of being is demonstrated in how we move through the world. And when we share the beauty of being human it shines out of us and reminds others that they can do that. Yeah, peace. 

That doesn't mean sitting in a lawn chair because I'm financially done or whatever - that's just contentment with self. Just to clarify. That's settled in me. I believe - again, on my best days - that comes from a real sense of myself that I'm good enough and people like me (laughs). That it really is both a joy and a privilege and a dream to be human and to be me and be thankful and grateful. So, it's that. It's being with reality that I believe is the reality of being. So, yeah, I would like to be able to more often be calmly accepting and embracing of that being human.

Do you have anything that you'd like to put out there?

I'm raising a child rather late in my life. I like to think that I will do a decent job of that - of course we started the therapy fund anyway because it loos likely (big smile). I do believe that one of the most profound ways that I can impact this world in a positive - or maybe by neglect in a negative - but one of the most profound opportunities I have to impact this world in a positive way is through and by how I enable my daughter to be herself and know what she's passionate about, know what she cares about, knows what matters to herself, and encourage her and allow her and provide her the opportunities to learn how to bring that to the world. I fear that in her lifetime this world will experience some very difficult times, difficult challenges, and that we heartfelt, conscious, able, and empowered beings - that they're our only hope to deal with it. So, my hope would be that I'm able to help her to be that type of person that can make a difference. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me?

Yeah, I would just encourage you to look at ways that you can take your work and present it, brand it, package it - ask yourself what can you do to really have a positive impact on others through this work so that you get both the feedback and appreciation for what you're doing, but also so that you have the experience that your efforts into the world matter and have value. Because, again, if we don't have that, then I think we meander and we're not encouraged to find - let alone reach - any potential of being that is accessible to us. So I would just ask that of myself when I can and certainly of everyone I care about to trust that their work is valid and valuable and if that is not obvious or apparent, then to find what's missing to make it obvious and apparent. I need that for me, so I would love that for you, too. 

When I asked Barbara to recommend people to this project, she immediately mentioned her husband, Ian, who I had the chance to chat with briefly at Rose's house in the summer. We found some time that worked for both of us and then put something on the calendar and then we pushed that date around a bit.

Michelle Mitchell

Quite a few months after her interview, Sarah connected me to Michelle. It took some time for us to schedule an interview and when we finally did meet Michelle was coming off a really difficult week at work. She is the founder and “Chief Culture Angel” at Humm Kombucha and had to make some really challenging decisions earlier in the week. In the end, I think it left her feeling more exposed than usual, which likely contributed to the depth of our heart-to-heart connection. Talking with Michelle in what was part storage room and part office came so easily and I left her feeling reenergized and a little lighter than I was feeling when I arrived. I’d venture a guess that she often leaves people with that gift.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name is Michelle Mitchell - that's what they call me. How would I describe myself? I don't know. This is gonna sound so cheesy, but it's what keeps coming to me - I describe myself as love and light. I've known this since I was a kid. I remember writing this paper in high school about what I wanted to... it was actually kind of a morbid paper. The question was, What do you want people to remember you by when you die? This was our junior year. And then the teacher sent it to us 10 years later. So, 10 years beyond that I went back and read it and I was like, Wow, that was still spot on! And I wrote, I just want to be love and light. I feel like my mission is to spread love and light through the world. How that happens, you know, the backdrops of the stories... it's just a story. I just want people's hearts to be really, really happy. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

That. Probably that. My kids really matter to me and it really motivates me to be a super good mom to them and to - and I would say this about actually all of the Humm-sters - create a space where they can be, like they can show up as they are. And they can screw it up and they can make mistakes and they can figure it out and they can... you know what I mean? When I think about the business, like, they can't keep making the same mistakes over and over - that's a problem. But that there's room. There's room for people to just be and not feel confined or trapped or like they have to show up a certain way for somebody else. And so, I think what motivates me is just holding space for people to breathe and to just be who they are and be human and figure it out. 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart? 

What gives me a heavy heart is when humans are so blinded by their stories or their egos that they can't see the beauty in another and then they can't see that it's really just a reflection of themselves. You look at our world today.... I gotta be honest with you, I hardly ever watch the news. I figure if some newsworthy event happens to cross my plate, then I was supposed to hear about it and if not, then I wasn't. And I stopped like 15 years ago. Because it gave me a heavy heart. If I believe that my job in this lifetime is to spread love and light, then at that point - 15 years ago - to be reading all the news and how people are still killing each other and hating each other and all of this heavy, dark, bleh. It was too much and I felt like I couldn't breathe. 

Person to person, what do we mean to each other? 

I don't know if this is gonna make sense. I actually think that it's all the same. We're in different bodies. We have different stories. We have different experiences. Okay, the best way I can describe this is I'm gonna go back to traveling. We were in Korea at this point and we were with a Buddhist master. We were sitting there and Eric asked the question, What does it mean to me married? And he said, Okay, Michelle, go stand in front of this mirror and tell me what you see. And I said, I have blonde, curly hair and blue eyes and a green skirt and a blue sweater. And he said, Yeah, this mirror is a reflection of your physical body - your physical manifestation of you. A relationship - a marriage, but really any relationship and certainly your most intimate relationships - is a mirror of your soul because you can't possibly see in another human being what you don't know in your heart. It's impossible. You would be blind to it. You wouldn't even recognize it. So all of the beauty that you see in another person is yours - it's in you. And then all of the ugliness that you see in another person - it's in you. And every relationship is this mirror. I don't know if that answered the question (laughs).

So, in the grander scheme, what does it mean to you to be part of community?

For me, it's as simple as taking care of each other. Just taking care of all the beings that are in the community. Yeah, it can be as small as a family unit or Humm or Bend or it's the world. I don't think it has to be any harder than that. 

There's loads of evidence of our not doing that. There's so many social injustices or violations of human rights or indecencies or breaking of moral and value systems and abuse in so many different forms. Do you have thoughts on that and then what your role might be in doing something about it? 

I guess the perspective that I have on it is that it starts with the people closest to you and then, you know, the butterfly effect beyond that. I don't know, Joshua, it will be really interesting to see this next step for me and what happens after Humm. I imagine that at some point in the next decade or whatever I'll have space to do something maybe bigger or grander, but going back to the question of what really hurts my heart, it's seeing that. It's seeing these social injustices. And seeing people just blind. Blind, I guess, or asleep. I don't know any other way to describe it. There's a lot of pull in me to do something about human trafficking. I don't what that means exactly. I don't know what I'm gonna do. It's this pull to take care of women and children. It's not just women and children - there's men, too. But there's something there for me and I don't know what it is. I don't know exactly how that's gonna formulate. We were talking about ideas before and it's still far enough out that I can't quite... it's not tangible yet. For now I guess it's just doing what I'm doing and creating a work environment for a hundred people that they feel safe and honored and respected and valued so that they, hopefully, then take that and keep spreading it to the people that they are closest to. 

You referred to blindness - when you encounter something terrible, is that your first instinct is to assume the person committing the act doesn't see it? Or are you more inclined to think that it's deliberate? 

I ultimately believe in the goodness of heart of all humans. And I think when I say blind it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not deliberate; it doesn't mean that there hasn't been forethought; it doesn't mean that there isn't evil or anger and hate that is a part of the human experience. What I mean is those emotions - that that hate and that anger and that heaviness is blinding them from their true nature or the true nature of the human spirit. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Mmmm. Yeah. To spread love and light (laughs). It really is. 

What does the words 'a sense of purpose' mean to you?

For me it's very personal. I mean, you know, I got my own shit that I gotta work on, too. For sure. But every day I wake up and I have this altar - meditation table - and I spend 20 minutes every day. Throughout the course of my life this has ebbed and flowed. I've gone through times where I meditate a lot and I don't meditate and I practice yoga and I don't practice yoga, you know. But this stretch I'm at almost a year - it started last November - and it's different. It feels different now than it has before. Before I was like, People say that it's a really good idea to meditate, so I think I'll meditate. It was more externally motivated. And then this was just more internal. So, the way it drives me is I just want to be as clear as possible or as unblind as possible so that I can help clear this energy - this collective mask - that I think is happening in our time right now with humans on the planet right now. And I do a lot of work in energetic space - I don't actually share this at all except with my really, really close friends - but I feel a lot of energy and I believe that part of my purpose is to help clear this space for the collective. And hold space for the collective. And just... I don't really have words to describe it. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

I'm at a point in my life right now where while all of that purpose for me is clear, I still - at 42 - still feel not super-settled in my human experience. I got divorced three years ago; I have these two little beings that call me Mom; I have this business that I'm doing - those things are actually going really well, just different than what I thought that they would look like. And I don't necessarily feel fully settled in, I don't know, in this picture - in this lifetime. It keeps changing. It's changed so much in the last five years in a way that I couldn't have seen five years before that that I think I'm just now getting to this point where I'm like, Okay, we're all good (laughs). It is starting to feel that way, but I'm still just watching a lot. 

Do you have anything that you'd like to ask me?

Well, what's your purpose? 

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That word has a lot of connotations for me. The first half of my life I grew up in a very conservative Evangelical Christian world and purpose was talked about a lot, but it was just this one thing - we were just meant to tell more people about God and that was that. We were in this exclusive community and we were super lucky and we were supposed to be able to pass out tickets to everyone else. It seemed like it was just meant to be like, “Stop asking questions. You’re special.” So, parting with that about 18 years ago, the word purpose has had a totally different feeling for me. 

I'm an existentialist and I think philosophically and I like to deconstruct and just cause myself a bunch of heartache, basically. So I'm careful about how I answer it 'cause I don't really want to imply that I have any kind of answers. I will say that I have compulsions that I can't explain. And I'm generally not at ease - probably the softest way to put it - with the way things are. I have a lot of discomfort about how we treat each other and how I am capable of treating people and just the way it all functions. And this pursuit of greed and money and what wealth has come to mean and the access that gives you. I'm just uncomfortable and stressed out. But I'm so curious about everybody because I think there's got to be more and we all must have a notion about being dissatisfied with what we've adopted as the way that life is. But I don't see a lot of courage and bravery in trying to cut through all that bullshit. So, something in that is where it feels like my purpose lies - is exploring that; is trying to get to know people; it's doing this project for the sake of whoever stumbles across it, but also for my own - I need to be reminded that people aren't terrible or that many, many people have something so good. 

So, I don't know. I had an inkling for photography and it turned out that I had an eye and then I learned the craft. And I've got a way with words. These are things that have kind of just come together and it seems to line up with this curiosity that I have. So, I feel like I'm living out my purpose. With that said, I don't find it peaceful. 

Quite a few months after her interview, Sarah connected me to Michelle. It took some time for us to schedule an interview and when we finally did meet Michelle was coming off a really difficult week at work. She is the founder and "Chief Culture Angel" at Humm Kombucha and had to make some really challenging decisions earlier in the week.

Jill Rose

Stephanie O’Brien recommended Jill to this project. They met rather serendipitously during Stephanie’s recovery at one of Jill’s yoga classes and became fast friends. Within seconds of walking through Jill’s front door, she offered me tea and set a large plate of freshly-baked scones on the table in front of me, foreshadowing her later statement of being a mother at her core. We had real talks throughout our entire time together and a great portion of it is here for you to enjoy. I appreciated Jill’s sincerity and vulnerability and I am very much looking forward to our next gathering.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I'm Jill. I mean, who am I? The roles that I play? I'm a mom, primarily. That's definitely the biggest part of my heart and soul. I'm a wife to an incredible partner. I am a friend and get friendship from really amazing people. I'm a dog-owner now. I guess those are the different roles. Who I am and maybe what ties them all together is my drive to connect and maybe nurture and nourish. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

My children. I feel like that's gonna be the answer to every question (laughs). Especially as I'm watching them grow and really concentrating and trying to concentrate on staying present in the feelings that accompany that. So, right now, they matter most to me as they kind of move through their worlds and navigate that. And I think beyond my family, community matters to me. A sense of connection - authentic connection. Laughter matters to me. 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart? 

Oooh. The world today. Yeah, like we were talking about. It's overwhelming. I've stopped watching the news; I've stopped listening to the radio on my way to work or wherever I'm going. I even just limited my news to The Skimm - an email that comes that gives you basically the highlights - in a funny way - of the news. But I even eliminated that because it weighs on me so heavily. Boy oh boy, especially after last week and the Kavanaugh hearings and the complete dismissal of Dr. Ford and millions of other women and their voices. And the children being separated from their families at the border. And just the complete lack of - I'm on a roll - human compassion and empathy and isolation. That overwhelms me right now. That overwhelms me. 

It should. It's also difficult to know what to do with it. 

That's the thing - I feel like somewhere in here is a call to action because we as humans are not meant to feel this so deeply and then just let it knock us out. I have to find the action behind this. I have to... because for me that's the only way I can heal or feel like we're gonna be okay. And I do... ultimately I do believe we're gonna be okay. And I hope that where we are currently is just a tipping point and everything good is going to rise from this. And this has been a mirror and now we're gonna shatter that. We're gonna come back to who we really are - to our hearts and souls. We're gonna let go of the divisiveness and the competition and the fear and the anger and we're gonna come home to peace and kindness and compassion and empathy. And maybe that's naive, but I have to believe that. 

What do we mean to each other, person to person?

We're life-forces for each other. We need each other. We need community. We can't work in silos or in vacuums. We need community. We need connection for us to fulfill whatever it is we're here to fulfill. We can't go it alone. I mean, look what's happening to us - we're going alone and it... I always find it so ironic that social media is such a huge part of our lives these days and yet we're more disconnected as a culture and a society than we've ever been before. When we really have more access to each other. But the problem is that it hasn't allowed us to come together. We get to further ourselves. And I think the consequences of that have been what we're seeing politically, what we're seeing culturally, and what we're just seeing racially and socially and... you know? So, I think what we mean to each other - that was a really answer, sorry - is connection. 

What does being part of community - part of this broader, greater human sense - what does it mean to be engaged in that way? With other people as opposed to burying your head in the sand.

For me, community shows up in a lot of different ways. Like we were talking about earlier, community has helped me raise my children. Community is where I find strength. And where, given the right community, I allow vulnerability and authenticity. And I think community is paramount to our survival, to our success, to our happiness. Yeah. 

Why do we continue to be unjust to each other and why is it so difficult to break the cycle? 

I mean, fear. Right? Fear. That is my belief - that is the root cause of every injustice we see. We fear power, lack of power... you know, when you look at the families being torn apart on the borders and the momentum behind that is fear-based. These people are gonna come in and they're gonna take our jobs and they're gonna take our resources and where does that leave us? Right? And so we can build these stories and these qualifiers for our behaviors. When you look at sex trafficking - I used to work for a company that focused in sex trafficking in India - and they can even qualify it there by temple slavery. Not all, but some religions incorporate slavery of young girls into that. I mean, we can qualify it. I think so much of it is fear-based. I think that desire and need for power stems from our own fears and sense of lack and it manifests in these horrible, crazy ways that, as they progress, I think people just qualify it in one way or another with their own story. You know? That's probably a really naive answer, but I feel like fear is the root of all dis-ease. 

If we take the immigration at the Mexican border issue, that fear voice is pretty amplified and I have a hard time believing or fathoming the idea that everyone speaking out against mass immigration is doing that because they have some sort of direct "this is gonna personally affect my...". Is it affecting them personally or are they part of some collective? And is it fear that then meets some perverse solidarity? You can kind of understand the things that really personally affect you, but why are people attaching themselves to these group mentalities that actually don't really have anything to do with them at all? 

I would say one, if we were rational, we probably wouldn't be facing what we're facing. Secondly, it's an interesting question because if we go back to your original question of the importance of community, does it matter what the community looks like? I wonder if people just so desperately hold on to that sense of solidarity, to a sense of community and maybe - I'm thinking out loud here, but I wonder if community maybe isn't always bright and shiny and rainbows and unicorns. Maybe there's this shade side to community, which in its essence is just a collective - a group of people where you look to define yourself and where you look to be a part of something and maybe you don't know who you are or what you believe, but you're embraced or it sounds good or maybe it's more that mob mentality where you just get swept up in it. I don't know. I appreciate the pushback, though, 'cause I think you're right - I think if it were just as simple as fear, you know maybe we'd have better answers for it. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Mmhmm. I do have a sense pf purpose. Yeah. Look out! I do. Somebody once, not too long ago, said to me - and I love this - Purpose is the sum of your essence. Like, your essence, your soul, who you really are - putting your essence into action equals purpose. So, for me, I have this sense of what my essence is and my purpose is how I manifest that. So, when you asked who I am, I think who I am at my core is I am a mother. And not just to my own children, but I have that deep desire and drive to connect. And I love to see people realize their own strengths and power. And I believe deeply in community. And so, my manifestation of that is Gather, which is my business. Or, I teach yoga. I love that when I can bring ease and I can help to nurture people, but I also can help to lift them. So, yeah, I feel like I have a strong sense of purpose and it shows up in the various ways I choose to spend my time. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Money. (Laughs) Is that a bad answer? In my life I feel very, very blessed. I feel like I'm in a stage in my life where I've been through a lot. I've seen a lot. Not at all to compare myself to other extraordinary, difficult situations, but through enough where, for me, I feel like I have what's right right. I have everything right other than that constant financial shell game - that's the one thing that does plague me. And stresses me out. Especially because I have another child in college and you know just constantly trying to figure that out. But if I can tone down that stress, there's not a lot else in my world that I complain about - my personal world - until I look outside and I read the news and then I... you know. Yeah. And maybe that's just an answer because I don't know how to tackle the immigration, which is really the one - that and the recent hearings - brings me down. 

If I were to look at my life - and I do often - I feel like everything that I have brought into my life aligns deeply with who I am - that essence we talked about. I'm very abundant in so many areas of my life. I have love. I am surrounded by love and that is a core, core value of mine. And I love to give it and it fills me to receive it and I have that in my life. And yet that money piece - even though it's a piece of paper that I just pull out of my wallet or the bank - it does cause me to stop in my tracks. And it is an ongoing struggle that I have. I'm only recently talking about it. It's interesting. So, I guess now we're going public with it? But it is a stress for me. It is. And I have to believe I'm not alone in that. And if I am, it's still my experience. And it's definitely something I place too much power on because I have everything else. So I don't know why that one trips me up, but it does. 

Do you have anything else that you want to put out there?

No, not really. I don't know. I guess what I want to put out there is there's such power in community and in connection. I think community is the vehicle for which connection lives and where we find that. And I think that is why we're here. And I love this project 'cause I think even if you're questioning it, what you're offering is connection. And whether it's this one-on-one or reading the other stories or hearing the other voices, you're offering connection through this community. So, thank you. 

Do you want to ask me anything? I'll indulge one question. 

I would love to know what it is - the experiences, the history - that led you to be inspired by creating I Heart Strangers and A Community Thread. Like, who are you? What is your essence? Because here is your purpose. Your purpose is creating community and seeing people - clearly. So, what is that? What is the essence that leads you to that?

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The thing that comes to mind - you know, this could be answered differently in three hours or tomorrow with a different person - but the thing that comes to mind here with you now is that I think I'm a wounded person. Quite sad. Yeah, like a sad, heavy person that doesn't want to be debilitated by that stuff. And the way that people have hurt me and the way that I've hurt people and the ease with which that comes - the way that we can just kind of treat each other poorly - it seems like there's got to be a lot more. We've got to be able to find ways to get along. And I'm sure that I make any number of well-intentioned but bad decisions in the course of my day - what food I consume or which brand I buy or how what I said was received - so I don't pretend to have it all sorted out. But I think we just need to have more good things to look at. We need to have more encouragement and more reasons to want to come together and even if it's not agree, at least be civil. So that's a heavy, heavy, heavy way to answer the question, but I think it comes from there. 

Stephanie O'Brien recommended Jill to this project. They met rather serendipitously during Stephanie's recovery at one of Jill's yoga classes and became fast friends. Within seconds of walking through Jill's front door, she offered me tea and set a large plate of freshly-baked scones on the table in front of me, foreshadowing her later statement of being a mother at her core.

Bruce Emerson

Moe Carrick made another great contribution to this project by introducing me to Bruce. I believe they met each other through TEDx. Bruce’s role in that as well as his being a physics professor at COCC are just a couple of the ways he leaves his mark on this world. We met at the Science Center at COCC and chatted in one of the sky boxes that look out over the mountains. Bruce was so upbeat and energetic and, as he mentions later in the interview, he was wholly present with me during our conversation. Bruce, much like his wife Dawn, is so kind. I can definitely understand why Moe suggested I meet with them together. I’ve yet to have that experience, but I’m looking forward to that happening. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

You know, it's a heck of a question. There are all kinds of easy answers and none of them feel quite right anymore. The place I'm at now - which I guess is the only place you can talk from - I'm actually trying to figure out if the person I thought I would be and the way I hoped to feel right in my life when I got to 61 is gonna still stick. Right? Now that I'm here I'm like, Why am I feeling like I should be different than I am? When I was 40, I thought, Well, that's how I want to be when I'm 61. I'm kinda that person I was hoping I would be - somebody who's engaged with the community, somebody who communicates science to the outer world, somebody who's a partner and a parent and a member of the community. Yeah, it's all working. It's all happening. Why do I keep looking around for something else to do? It's not like I don't have plenty to do. 

One model that I find is really useful for me in terms of describing how I sit in the world, when I was in music school, one of the things I discovered is that I am a terrible section leader and a really good number two. And being number two - being the person who supports the person who has the drive to have a giant vision that they want to carry - as long as I share that vision, I'm a really effective behind-the-scenes number two. Help things move, help things potentiate, help things happen. And so I think that's - in some functional way - that's who I am. That's what I do here at the college is I just try to help things move. I don't have any massive agenda for myself. But lots of people around here have brilliant ideas and so if I can help their brilliant ideas move forward, then great. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

So, I think what motivates me - the common driver that just always shows up and chases the new shiny - is curiosity. Somewhere a million years ago, my dad read me the Kipling story about The Elephant's Child with insatiable curiosity and that just struck a chord and that's been me ever since. There's nothing I'm not curious about. It makes me a version of a jack of all trades and an expert of none. But that curiosity is what drives me. That's the driver, right? Always following something that seems interesting, but it's also always connected with trying to make the world a better place. In some small way - not in some big way - it's not about being a politician and leading anything. That's just not me. 

The usual argument for somebody who's been at the college 30 years is, Well, why don't you be a dean? Why don't you be a vice president? Why don't you affect more people more effectively? Right? Move up the chain, then you can make this a better place by making decisions that impact thousands of students instead of the 50 that are in your class. And it's like, No. For me, the people that I can actually make a difference to - a real difference to - are only the ones that I can physically touch; the only ones that are within arms reach that I can speak to face to face; that I can know enough about them to try to actually respond to them. This is not some abstract, Well if I make better rules, then more people can have a better life. It's absolutely true, but it has nothing to do with me. So, sort of in that same I'm a great number two and a terrible section leader - I'm much better at this level; at 50 students in my class; at two students in my office. Zero... zero interest in leading the department, the college, the anything. None. I guess I really do fundamentally believe that the only way to change the world is for everybody to reach out to their community that they can touch and change it there. Know where are we going, collectively, but let's reach out and change the people that are in our sphere - our direct sphere - and then let the edges of our sphere touch the next sphere. 

On the other side of that, what concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart?

I get frustrated sometimes. For me, that's a really hard question in a different way because I've been gifted with a form of the human chemistry set that makes it really hard for me to stay in a dark place for very long. So, it's taken me a lot of years to realize that this is not everybody's experience about their emotions and how it works is really different. And for me, it turns out, even if I've had a really bad day, if I just go out for a walk, sleep, wait 24 hours, it will be manageable. It always comes back. What makes it a bad day? It makes it a bad day because I had this cool idea I wanted to purse and somebody told me a I couldn't do it. And I'm like, Really? Seriously? Right? So, you know, I'm cranky. And if that happens three times in a couple of weeks... which something about February always leads to that. So, at the end of February, ever year, like most teachers, I'm just in this really kind of grrrrr place. But, after many years, the rational part of me says, Yeah, but you know, Bruce, the result of what all that no stuff that happens in February is, is every year in April, you go 'Well fine, you're gonna tell me no. I'm gonna go way out on a limb in that direction and I'm gonna do something as creative as I can think of how to do that basically walks me around your no.' So, there's this huge benefit. All the best things I've done in my career as a teacher, in my life as a human being, have come because somebody stood in my way and said No... multiple times. So okay, Please do that. Stand in my way. Tell me no. And then I'll remember that that's just a way of me having to figure out that the route that I was on is maybe not the most amusing and fun and creative route. So, you'll help me find the better way through the mountains. So, that's what I tell myself. And then I go home and get pissed. But then it goes away - 24 hours later it goes away. 

Permanent darkness? No. The long-term darkness is just about people whose lives are irredeemably screwed up by circumstances beyond their control. That's just sad. If I can't do anything about it, I'm not gonna wander around feeling terrible because the world's unfixable. I was just listening to Tim Minchin this morning and he's like, Get over it, right? Life sucks. You have happy moments; you have sad moments; you live a life; you do the best you can can and then you die. Okay. It's cool. I can do that. Take the moment that you're in, try to make it as good as you can, and move forward. And so, TEDx is one of those kind of things. It's a chance, right? It's way outside of my comfort zone. It's way outside of my skillset. But, amazingly, people who have that skillset invited me to be part of the process, part of the team, part of the... I've learned more from them than I've ever given to them - every step of the way. 

What do we mean to each other - person to person? 

I'm not sure that there's anything else. It's the only meaning that there is. For me. If I'm my best self - which plenty of times I'm not - but if I'm my best self, whoever I am with, you occupy my full attention. Feels very Buddhist at a certain level, right? I'm really trying to be in the moment. With you. About this. This is what I think today at this moment. It will be similar tomorrow, but can't possibly be the same. All I can touch is what I feel right now. 

We, for a long time - Dawn and I - did a martial arts practice - 25 years - and one of the things that was really lovely about it is that push that's part of all the Zen-based, Buddhist-based practices, which is you just go. The point of practice is to go and practice. It's not to get some place in particular. It's just to be there in the moment, feeling the person you're working with, responding to them appropriately - caring for them, lifting them up, being lifted up by them. What else would you want to do? 

I feel like if we could live that kind of life from moment to moment to person to person... literally two minutes ago, I was walking by and a student who's been out because of a medical issue for a couple of years and really been working hard to try to get back to school, but has tried and then been driven back out because of medical issues and then it resolves and tried... and they're back. That's just HUGE for me that they're back. We've stayed in contact. We've tried to - in those moments - tried to bring some tiny bridge back to what they want to do. And when it fails, then we just take the bridge apart and we try to build a new bridge. And so I feel like the fact that that student is back and it looks like it's gonna stick this time - it's been two years of trying to help it happen - it's a total win. And hopefully completely invisible except to that student and me. 

What does it mean to you to be part of the bigger picture - the larger community as a species? 

(Sighs, long pause) So, today, I think I would frame that as... (laughs) today, it feels like what seems important to me about that is to engage with your life as an insignificant member of the bigger thing. But the insignificance is kind of important to me. I don't need to be significant to be part of the human race. I don't need to be significant in the universe to be the caretaker of this planet. And all I can caretake is that which is within my reach. But yes, I'm part of a really big community, but I'm just a little cog. I'm a blood cell in the being which is the planet in some sort of New Age kind of way. Although it is - it's just a giant, complicated organism. Sentient? I don't know - I'm not worried about whether it's sentient or not. But I'm part of the puzzle and I'm trying to do my bit to make it better for the next generation; trying not to leave it as screwed up as possible. I spend a lot of time apologizing to my students for my generation. We have not thought long-term about the planet that we're creating for the next couple of generations - my generation. Not because collectively we've been complete idiots, but we haven't responded to the learning in ways which says, Oh, we might want to be cautious about this if we actually care about other parts of this giant thing called the human race. So, yeah, my role in the bigger sense - the way I see myself in the bigger sense - is hopefully sort of the way if blood cells have a brain, how does a blood cell see its role in life? I'm an important part of something, but I'm not the center of existence. I just have a role to play and I'll take whatever skills I have and do that role as well as I can. And if I can make my little corner of the world healthier, then that's my job.

What do you think your role is then - in those terms - when dealing with issues of violations of human rights and this perpetuation of social injustices of varying degrees? How does that affect your life and what kind of accountability do you think you should have?

I think one of the challenges that I haven't resolved very well in my life is... there are things that happen that are outside of any sphere of direct influence that I might have and there's clearly evidence that by banding together with other folks who are equally upset by that stuff, you can accomplish things that you couldn't accomplish if you just sort of hold your frustration inside that micro community that I normally operate within.  I guess I have not found a way that works for me that feels like it's an effective use of my time in the big balance of the world to participate with those sort of global issues - whether it's protests, whether it's letter-writing, whatever. And so, the rationalization I use is that, for me, I feel like I'm more likely to have a direct impact by working really hard to help educate the students that cross my path to be more effective thinkers. Because if I can send a thousand students out into the world as adults - as human beings - who are more effective thinkers, I feel like I will have a much more significant impact than if I stood up and shouted really loud. So, for me, it feels like a long-range thing - I'm trying to change things now so that the ripple going forward will change things more. That feels like a more nuanced kind of an approach, but it's also more consistent with me. I'm trying to launch a piece of a future solution. I don't see that I have the kind of tools, strategies, and impact to leap up and force change now. 

Do you have a sense of purpose and does that combination of words mean something to you?

(Laughs) So, like a lot of things, I feel like I know what it's supposed to mean. I think I have come to believe that this stage in my life that the idea of some ginormous purpose - some candy cane out there that I'm chasing - has not been particularly useful to me. I am much more interested in shortening my view from that long view and asking, What can I do in this moment, in this day, in this week, in this season for the people both that I care about or that I care to serve that will make things better in some way? And that's enough purpose - I don't need any more purpose than that. So, if that's purpose... yeah, but we usually use purpose to mean there's some grand goal in my life. No, there's no grand goals in my life. Not interested in grand goals. Not because they're bad - it's just they don't work for me. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Time (laughs). Sure, what I want is more time. And so, as a teacher, we always are like, Yeah, if you just wouldn't give me so many classes to teach I could do a better job. There's a certain reality for people like those that my colleagues are and me - the people that we've gathered together at this community. It almost doesn't matter, actually - if you gave me only one course to teach, I would still work 60 hours a week because there's not enough time to do the job I want to do. It doesn't matter how much time I have. So, yes, I would love to have more time, but would I be less busy if I had more time? Which is the usual thing I'm thinking, If I had more time I'd be less busy - I could take a moment to sit down. No, I have to decide that I need to take a moment to sit down and like not be busy. That's my disfunction - I haven't figured it out yet. So, yeah I work too hard. Yeah, I don't get enough sleep. But on most days, I get to be around - besides my wife, who's a fabulous human being - I get to be around a whole host of colleagues who are in their individual ways just the coolest people. Just the coolest people. Everywhere. And my students, too. It doesn't matter... there are so few real jerks out there in the world. So few. There's a few, but not too many. And I don't seem to ever run into them... for very long (laughs). Maybe I run the other way, I don't know. 

Do you have anything else that you want to put on the record? 

Well, the only other thing I think I probably want to put on the record is just a thank you to you because your site and this process and some things that have sort of coincidentally all come to sort of pass over the last couple of weeks have, in some ways, restarted an internal and an external conversation about how you build community and what does it take and what makes community? Does it actually take people to go out and build a support structure within which community can create? Or do you just participate and in participating does it take care of itself? Is it self-organizing or does it need external support? Some of the time? All the time? None...? It's become a much richer conversation about several of the projects that I'm looking forward to in the next 20 years. All the different ways I could do that - some of them are more passive, less centered on trying to drive the project, some of them are a little bit like this project, right? What happens if you just surface some things that are already going on? Will a community coalesce around those surfaced ideas or does it take more than that? And sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, I guess. But the conversation has gotten much better as a result of this. So, this conversation is dropping into my life at a really neat moment for me. 

Do you want to ask me anything?

Well, the thing that I was curious about reading through all these folks that you've talked to in this conversation about community - I'm actually really curious - do you have an answer for the question of how best or more effectively to build community? What does it mean to build - what kind of strategies are there to build community? 

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Great! That's a great question. I'm starting to understand that the way one answers a question is a choice. And not so much to choose the truth or not the truth, but a choice of which aspect you want to focus on. I tend to focus on the heavier aspects. So, an idealist answer - a more optimistic answer - would be to say that I think I'm building a community over time. I think I'm planting those seeds that you mentioned - to build a community - that I'll start to notice eventually. That's the optimistic side. The side that I feel a little bit more often - that really effects me more than that - is that I'm wondering how much one person should do before they start to feel a sense of community. 

I feel often quite alone - and that irony is not lost on me. And that kind of leads me to come to this place of just frustration. And as I proceed through this with the feeling of being alone, there's just so much room for doubt and questioning my own sanity and wondering if things are worth it or not and all that. But, as I sit here with you now, all of those thoughts are gone and it's in the moment and I feel it. And then I go home and I'll spend more time with you than you'll spend with me as I transcribe. And it really means a lot to me - all of these interactions really mean a lot to me. 

So, I guess I want to say - to answer your question - I think we have to be deliberate about the time that we spend with each other and what we want to take away from that time. You can very easily come and go, interact not interact, grab your coffee, eat your lunch, go to somebody's house for dinner even, and be there or not. Or you can just decide that you're gonna make all of those things matter. If you want to have a more genuine experience at the coffee shop, you need to have a freer schedule. Right? If you want to connect on a deeper level, you need to be more open to where that might come from. So, I think it comes down to a choice. If people want community, they can have it. They can decide that they're gonna get it and they can make choices in their life that make that more possible. 

I think as a culture we have some work to do there. The systems in place - things are categorized and they're on a schedule and it becomes difficult to allow for that under those parameters. I'd like to see some of that stuff shift and change 'cause I think our getting along, our communicating with one another, our learning from each other are some of the most important things. I think there's an answer in there somewhere to your question. 

Moe Carrick made another great contribution to this project by introducing me to Bruce. I believe they met each other through TEDx. Bruce's role in that as well as his being a physics professor at COCC are just a couple of the ways he leaves his mark on this world.

Stephanie O'brien

Erin Collins introduced me to Stephanie and I am so glad she did! We connected as soon I walked through her front door as we chatted about thrifting and vintage finds and then connected even deeper over, as odd as it my sound, cancer. My mother was diagnosed with cancer in the early ‘90s and has been in remission since. She and Stephanie are not just survivors but, more importantly, they are thrivers. I have been interested in exploring how having cancer has changed the individual’s life for the better and Stephanie had lovely things to say about that. She is also a single mom as my mom was, so we had lots to talk about in that regard, too. Stephanie is upbeat and excited for life and full of smiles - a combination of characteristics which makes for a wonderful human.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

First and foremost, I truly feel like I am a conscious being living a human experience as a mom, daughter, sister, a creative, a piano teacher, a second-hand huntress (laughs), and a member of my community - here in Bend and on this globe. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

To really embrace each moment and know that we don't have to live with such strict, rigid certainty of our life. I believe the possibilities and the magic can happen when you surrender to the moment. That really means a lot to me. And it alleviates a lot of potential suffering with having those expectations otherwise. Yeah, living in the moment with gratitude.

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart?

'Cause I've been there before, I feel like when people - as humans, I guess I should say - feel stuck in the past or kind of label ourselves because of our conditioning of the past and our worry about the future and just kind of have this stuckness in life - that we can't move forward and recreate ourselves. So, when I see people with a lot of talent and they have a certain purpose that really speaks to them and they have that hard time to kind of dive into that and live that life that they truly want. 

What do we mean to each other - person to person? 

I think we are a reflection of one another. I feel like it takes a village in that we need each other. I think we can get inspired by each other; we can help each other - raise each other up - to each live our own potential and see that we each have this immense, marvelous light within us. And from being sick, that was huge for me in how this community rallied around me to lift me up in a lot of ways. They nourished me - the connections I made with people - and I found that a new definition of success, for me, was just kindness.... was the ultimate success. When we show kindness to one another and kindness to ourselves, I think we all can... I don't know what the right word is... soar (laughs) in our own individual lives, but together. 

What does it mean to you to be part of a community - the community of humans? What does it mean to you to be part of this whole thing?

It's pretty immense and amazing to be part of this whole thing if you want to look at it globally in this moment in time that we're all here. I think we're all put here with a purpose to feel a sense of fulfillment. I think we all have something to bring to the table to help each other through life. Life is such a beautiful opportunity but it also has its challenges and that's when our community should be able to work together. I think it's so important. And I, also from having my dis-ease moment, realized that being a part of community can be everything. And you kind of start shedding all the superficial things of what you think you need. But you need your community. And everything that we've needed has been provided for us since the beginning; from a soul/spiritual level to what the Earth has provided as far as our nourishment and being able to utilize things for shelter and utilize each other's talents and what they have to offer. And sometimes that's more fulfilling than just going out and buying something - you know, that impermanent sort of happiness. 

It seems like it often takes some sort of tragedy to bring people together or to remind people of their community or to help people focus - for some maybe it's cancer and for others maybe it's some sort of debilitating accident or it's a time of war. I'm just gonna be really personal right now. The first part of the questions is why do you think we all wait for that? Not only for the people to help, but for the person that needs the help. The person that needs the help tends to focus and be able to celebrate the community once they've gotten it after something bad has happened and then the people that help usually wait to help until something bad has happened. So right now, I need help with this project. But I'm in a relatively good health. On the surface it doesn't look like I'm going through much of a hard time. But I keep asking for help and that ask keeps getting ignored. And while I'm really grateful that people eventually have their time when it does all come together, I'm wondering why we wait so long. And to make it an even bigger question, look at what we're in right now. We wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and it's gets really bad. 

I fully agree with what you’re asking. Why does it take something traumatic and having a humbling experience for people to finally either gather around or for ourselves to reach out to somebody? I think sometimes that's just a projection and a reminder that we are not here forever. And sometimes a dis-ease or a tragic accident that's debilitating for somebody - it reminds us and so, for some reason, brings us our own ease of dealing with that this could happen to me. 

Maybe this comes back to living in the present moment, which brings me to, I'm able to listen better, just to myself, and to see, with other people. Taking that time to be present and feel what the need is of others. I think it needs to be a constant reminder that we all - again - we all have a story; we all have needs that are very important to us; that sometimes we need help; and I think it's really important to still remain vulnerable and ask for help when you need it. Even if it's to help with an art project or to help pick up the kids and know that we can't always do it on our own and we need our community to help assist. And it's important to take that time. Sometimes it's only half-hour, an hour, and it can make all the difference for somebody. And I don't want it to ever be too late... for something tragic to happen. We always say, Oh, I wish I could have said this to them or I wish I could have spent more time with them. Because the things that we're busy doing on our normal day, those are the things that aren't really gonna matter and we can’t take with us. But that we helped raise each other up as a community and helped when someone needed our help - you can take that kindness with you, I truly believe. 

Leading into the next questions about social injustice and an invasion of human rights, for some people their tragedy happens to be their skin color or their sexual orientation or their birth place. Why do you think we're still dealing with that stuff today - in 2018 specifically - with all that we know? What's your role in that capacity and in changing that? 

I think a lot of us still live in a sense of fear - a fear of taking the next step. Whether it's in pursuing what speaks to us, just fear from our media that we see. Again, it brings me back to being present in the moment and a huge one that I feel could have some impact... is sitting with yourself and knowing yourself, loving yourself, doing your work, facing your fears. The start is within each of us. And I think it's all just fear-based. Of why people, like you said, still choose to be cruel and unkind and judgmental to others based on color or culture. Yeah, that weighs heavy on me. It weighs really heavy on me. Because we - again - are all in this together. We are a community on this globe and we're all going to be exiting this life and we'll probably all end up kind of, you know, in the same place. So all this fear and this judgment, it's just such heavy, horrible, fear-based energy. It could be put to better use of embracing one another. These differences - it's what keeps our world so beautiful and so unique and all the stories that we can all share with one another to embrace us as a whole. I think it's just a really beautiful opportunity. Again, I think it's fear. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

I do. I do have a sense of purpose. I think my sense of purpose here was to be some sort of a creative and see the beauty in all the small things that have been created from generations and centuries before us. And to have that appreciation for that and to maybe point those things out to others. And to create new things based off of being inspired by people that I meet and places that I travel. And my purpose, too, is just my own self-love and self-worth is a huge one. 'Cause I feel like once I have that, I can radiate more of other things that I enjoy doing and emit more love to the others around me once I have met that for myself.

What do you want more of in your life?

I definitely would like more travel and immersion with cultures and people in the communities around the world and the things that they create. More food and textiles and just constant inspiration - I want more of that to be more consistent. 

Do you want to ask me anything?

What would you like more in your world?

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Yeah. It's funny - I come up with things, of course, being a talker (laughs), but I don't have ready answers for a lot of this stuff. And they change every day. 

I want more of a sense of community, as odd as that probably sounds creating this project. I've been working really hard to find a community here in Bend. So, geographically, I'm still looking for my people here. In the world in the greater sense, I'm looking for some validation with my people. I'm looking to be a little bit more successful in how I show up. I feel like I'm doing a lot of good work right now, but I'm not sure that it matters so much until it starts to get noticed. Right? So, not really fame or not really notoriety, but just some attention being paid to the work helps fuel it and keep it going and perpetuate and grow it. So, yeah, I'm looking for some local good friends (laughs) and then I'm looking for a global community of peers that help this project and this work that I do and this curiosity that I have being a little bit more effective. I guess I could keep it like that for now. 

Erin Collins introduced me to Stephanie and I am so glad she did! We connected as soon I walked through her front door as we chatted about thrifting and vintage finds and then connected even deeper over, as odd as it my sound, cancer.

Dawn Emerson

Moe Carrick recommended Dawn to me with high praise. She actually recommended I interview Dawn and her husband Bruce together, but I haven’t quite figured out how to make those logistics work, so perhaps Bruce will be a future interview. I made the drive out to their property in beautiful Terrebonne and Dawn met me in the driveway. She gave me a short tour of their home and some of her paintings and then brought me out to her studio where we sat and chatted for about an hour and half before I turned the recorder on. It’s often that it happens like that during these interviews - that we click and have so much to talk about - so I keep a large window of time available for it. It’s one of my least favorite things to cut a conversation short. I hope you’ll get a sense in the interview below of Dawn’s kindness as she seems to be nearly overflowing with it. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Dawn Emerson. I would say I am an artist - visual artist. I love painting and discovering new ways to portray things. And I'm a teacher - I teach art - as well. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

What motivates me is curiosity and discovering stories that I don't know exist. You know, just sort of peeling back the layers of a person or an image or, by contrast, layering ideas on top of each other and unburying them - digging through - to find out what I think about things or how I can find out new ways of representing something. Ideas, abstraction, what the metaphors in life mean to me - that kind of thing. 

Why does that motivate you? Or to what end?

For me, I think the why I do it is because it helps me understand other people. It helps me understand how to help other people discover that about themselves - that they can realize that they, too, are creative. That they don't have to think that they're not an artist. That they can learn that the visual world is available to anybody and that it's one of the ways that you can express yourself. But very often they've been told or somebody has pointed out that they're not as good as somebody else or that they don't have any skill in this area and so they've shut that down. So, for me, it's about helping people understand how to recover storytelling. And if it turns out that visual language is their key, then I want to learn everything about that person so I can help them figure out how to show that again and feel happy doing it. So that's, I think, the why. 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart?

Oh, a heavy heart for me is about the state of our country, the state of medical care - especially the homeless - the prevalence of drug addiction, the sense that very few people have a joyful sense of purpose. You know, or even a willing sense of purpose. That's what gives me a heavy heart. 

Do all of those problems link to something in your opinion? Do they have some kind of common source?

I think the lack of knowing where to turn or what to go for - you know, how much to risk in your life - how much to pursue something that you think will give you happiness or joy is often shot down. I think that's probably where it starts - that people are not made to feel nurtured or that their choices are good ones or that there are ways to find another way to apply their strengths. 

Sometimes I think it would be really wonderful if as soon as you were born - because we don't come with directions - a baby vet comes in and they check out and they say, Well, you have the potential to be an amazing athlete based on your bone structure. Or The way your mind is gonna work, you should be a brain surgeon. (Laughs) It would be so nice if we knew those things, but we spend most of our lives trying to figure that out. And then when you do, it could be so late in the game that you give up. So, that may be where it starts. 

What do we mean to each other - person to person? 

That's a great question. As another human being to another human being. I think at the root of that is that we have volumes inside each of us and very rarely do you get a chance to share that with somebody. And in sharing those stories, I think that's where you find the humanity and the common link. And I guess I would add - when you realize the hardship that everybody has gone through that you can't tell on the surface, I think that makes you very humble. That, for me, it's about realizing the humility that each of us should have or could have if we only understood the other person. If we really could walk in their shoes. 

What does it mean to you to be part of community - to be in this life with other people?

The sense of community that I feel the most comfortable with right now on a personal level is those friends that I have that I keep in touch with on a regular basis. But they are part of a broader community of people around the world who are enjoying pursuing art and wanting to share ideas and make their art better and learn and be happier people. So, it sounds like a very narrow kind of community, but those are the people I've been able to spend the most time with - either in a workshop situation or at their homes for up to a week - and I get to know a great deal about these people and they become, for the most part some of them, amazing friends. Yet they've rarely met one another, so there's a linkage there that is really special. Community, for me, is not about religion. Community is not about the same church or temple that I go to. It's about knowing who you can call on when you need help, I think. 

I keep expecting to have a more refined version of this question in between interviews, but it keeps getting longer and more convoluted. I'm effected deeply by what I choose to call a violation of human rights or social injustice. And I mean the deliberate forms of it - the choices that we make to deliberately harm someone else. What are your thoughts on that? And what do you feel like you can do about it?

Yeah. That's a very deep question (laughs) especially in light of our conversation before this interview. I think that the human race is the disease on the planet (laughs) - that's pretty cynical, but as I get older I become a lot more cynical. And I want to see good in people. I want to see them helping each other without any thought to race, color - anything - religion. And what I can do in my very simple way would just be to have an open heart and give my attention to people who otherwise I might follow the instinct of just turning away or not listening or not helping in some way. I would hope that if someone really truly needed my help I would be there to give it. So, each individual that comes across my path - I have a choice how I'm going to do that. And that's all I can do in my life, I think. And, you know, lead by example for my kids and for my friends and anybody else that might be watching that I don't know about. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Personally, I do - it took a long, long time to find it. But I'll be in this studio doing art work, knowing that I can't afford to buy one of my art pieces. I can get down about that and think, Why am I doing this? And yet, I know that all of this leads to self-discovery and teaching in a way that only that process and that journey is going to make me a better teacher. So, very often when I'm working I will think, Damn! I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. This is what I'm supposed to do. And sometimes it's teaching and seeing somebody crying and understanding I just touched a nerve and I know what to do with this or I'm gonna give it my best shot. It comes from a place of genuine concern and love for other people and wanting to believe that if everybody painted (laughs) - if everybody had such a joyful experience of being able to create artwork - that they would be okay. That they wouldn't be in such pain. Or even it could be a relief from pain for a little while. And I think that's what my purpose is - is to teach them to be joyful and to play in a very productive way that will engage their mind, their energy, their inspiration, imagination and let them tell stories again.

What do you want more of in your life?

Time (laughs). Yeah, time - for sure. More insight about everything and a better sense of direction (laughs). In terms of I get lost in a paper bag. (Laughs) So, I keep hoping that one day I'll be able to find my way clearly. But seeing how the direction my life has gone in such an unplanned, uncharted way, I guess I just have to resolve to it's okay if I don't know where I'm going - I'll get somewhere. 

Can you unpack time a little bit? I like to hold people accountable if that's their answer.

More time to not be rushed. More time to just be in a place without doing anything in it. To take notice of more things - not feel the pressure... I'm very fortunate that I can take time in my studio, so I have that time to be in my studio. It's not that kind of time. It would be the time to go hiking and the time to garden more, I think. Get to know more people by listening to their stories. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put on the record?

No, I just think that you have a fascinating life ahead of you (laughs). It's hard for people who feel so deeply about the way they're living their life. And I'm sure that it will be worth it. 

we have volumes inside each of us and very rarely do you get a chance to share that with somebody. And in sharing those stories, I think that's where you find the humanity and the common link.

Ian Carrick

Moe Carrick referred a few folks to me and one of them was her son, Ian. We ended up meeting for this interview at Carol Delmonico’s house, where Ian was housesitting. Within minutes we dove right into deep topics and our entire conversation had a very solemn tone. It’s obvious to me that Ian spends significant time contemplating and is working hard to live in ways that honor his heart and values. We share a sensitive and curious nature and while that has plenty of perks, it also tends to allow for some heaviness - at least that is true for me. These days I don’t encounter too many 25-year-olds, but I can’t help but hope that they are all thinking about the world as actively as Ian is.  

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

(Laughs) I'm Ian Carrick. Ian Daniel Carrick. I am... who am I (laughs)? Yeah, I'm a sensitive and big-hearted young man who tries to practice a way of faith in this crazy world. Or recently tries to do that. I love to sing - I think singing is a really powerful tool for connection and metabolizing emotion. I'm a recovering singer - I got told very early on that I wasn't a singer by some other guys I was playing music with. I'm grateful a lot of the time. And I'm pretty lucky. I'm the recipient of a lot of gifts - of being born where I was and having the education that I have and having the travel experience that I have - lived in Brazil and Indonesia at a pretty young age. Yeah, I'm a musician and a creative person. 

Just last night, we had a gig and there was a dinner and they were serving chicken feet. They had harvested a bunch of chickens and so they were kind of encouraging people to eat chicken feet. And I was like, We have to have a chicken feet song. So we (laughs) impromptu made this reggae groove that turned into a song about chicken feet and I woke up with it stuck in my head. And I just felt totally in my element. People really enjoyed it and we made up some funny verses... 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

It motivates me to see a room full of people smiling together around a shared thing that's happening. The first I really experienced that I remember or was conscious of it was in Seattle at a contra dance. And I looked around the room and all of a sudden, every single person - grey hair, 12 years old - was smiling to the ears. And I've experienced that most often since then in these singing groups. Yeah, so that's super motivating. And then with the quote unquote performance stuff... that's totally what I'm after is that connection where people are lit up somehow. 

What matters to me - I think it's a practice of what I make matter to me. Like, I'm learning how to be a man who has - a person who has - values instead of just going on what feels good. That's a different model for me. Of doing something every time 'cause I need to feel good all the time - which is like sort of a selfish way of going through life - or actually wanting to be of service or have integrity or be vulnerable even when it's not really comfortable, but I have to be honest - that matters to me more and more. 

What concerns you or gives you pause or gives you a heavy heart?

I've been really touched - and it's funny saying this living in Bend  - just like what the African American and black and Latino experience is in this country. When I let myself feel it, and usually through music - hip hop, in particular, where I can really feel the pain of what some of those people are going through - and at the same time having empathy for my quote unquote brothers who like marching with torches in Charlottesville... I don't let myself feel it too often, but I'm aware and I feel very clear that there are gonna be more and more natural disasters that hopefully are gonna bring people closer together, but I also worry - as we're dealing with floods and fires and these different things that are happening around the country - that the culture clash is gonna make it really difficult to move forward in a good way. Even in August in Portland, both quote unquote sides were throwing firecrackers at each other over some old wounds that this country hasn't really dealt with around what it means to be a slave and what it means to enslave people. 

I also care about what I eat - and where the food comes from and where my water comes from - and just try to appreciate that I'm very much dependent on other living beings for my existence and try not to take that for granted. I have a teacher who talks about a science teacher asking a room full of students, How many of you love the Earth? and everybody's hand goes up. How many people feel loved by the Earth? and nobody's hand goes up. That concerns me. It concerns me what I have taken for granted with what sustains me in terms of food and the land that the food comes from, the people that the food comes from. It's kind of a whole side of our culture that we don't really talk about. 

What do we mean to each other on an individual basis? 

That's a great question. Hmm. Well, the first thing that came to mind is (laughs) being a channel for the divine for each other - like, seeing the divine in you helps me see it in me. And the second thing that came to mind was this whole concept of projection that I'm getting used to. I heard somebody say once in downtown Portland at a 12-step meeting, If I spot it in you, I got it in me. Even in the sauna yesterday, I was noticing a lot of judgment of this one guy - who was himself probably being a little bit judgmental - and, you know, the whole one finger pointing at you, three pointing back at me. I think there's a lot to learn when we can examine that kind of stuff that happens. Like we're mirrors for each other, ideally. 

What do we mean to each other individually? I think I'm still figuring that out. I have a teacher who says, We all have medicine. We came in fully-loaded. And so, the work's stripping back all the stuff that we learn and just learning what our medicine is for each other. I'd like to believe that's true. And we all came here with a gift of some kind. I don't know if that's the soul or what, but... 

What does it mean to you to be part of community?

I think I'm still figuring that out. For me what comes up is the little things - like remembering people's names, remembering what people are going through - and as much as possible just being able to be present with whoever I'm with. I know I can get into this thing where it's like go, go, go, go, go and then I don't really have time to be in community. I think community is whenever I'm just being somewhere. It could be working or teaching or listening or talking, but just that kind of presence. I have a mentor in Iowa who kind of has this very humble and direct approach to community and she's like, Community's showing up when you say you're gonna show up. It's like answering your phone, checking your voicemail. It's like saying no when you need to say no and saying yes when you need to say yes. And just these little things that really add up. I think community is also letting go sometimes and trusting that there is enough - that the community will hold me. Like yesterday, I was running around and I had lots to take care of and this lady over here started watering the plants, which is sort of my job. And at first I was like, Oh, I'm such a piece of crap! I didn't water the plants! But then I was like, No, she's got my back. It's gonna be okay. We're in this together. But I'm still learning what that is.  

I'm really thrown off by the more egregious forms of our being terrible to one another in the minute and the grand scale. I call those things a violation of human rights or social injustice - these are words that trigger people in different ways. In general, why do we treat each other poorly? And what is there actually to do about it? How can you do something about it?

I went to college at Seattle U, which kind of markets itself as this really social justice-oriented thing and since graduating, I've learned that there's actually a shadow side to believing I know what's just and what isn't just. There's a lot of judgment, that I learned, about that from that institution that cut me off from connection with some of the people right next to me - my family was doing wrong. And maybe this has more to do with me, but my fear of being unjust and that the people around me were being unjust cut me off from people - judgmental of friends, of family who were just doing little things that I thought weren't cool. I don't know if that makes sense. The social justice thing, when it throws me into a place where I'm judging others, I have to be really careful of that.

And in terms of what we can do, I mean, it's been said that with sooo many problems going on there's really a lot of opportunity to do a lot of different things. But in terms of what I can actually do - I don't know. There's this parable of two young men who go to meet a tribal elder somewhere to learn his wisdom. And the first time, he turns them down. So, a month later they come back. And he turns them down again. A month later, they come back again and he finally meets with them and says, Listen. Clean your car. Clean your room. When you can take care of those pieces of the Earth, I'll be ready to talk to you about our ways. And that really struck me 'cause I was running around, engaged with [this] and engaged with [that] but then I wasn’t taking care of my physical body, my finances, my relationships. For me, it kind of has to start there, which maybe would frustrate some people. 

A lot of the most tangible evidence of injustice that I've seen was from experience living in Indonesia and living with people whose land was being clearcut, basically, for a pulp factory that makes yoga pants. I mean, it's not that simple, but that's where a lot of the pulp was going - to viscose and rayon production. So, I think a lot of times it's like, Where does the money go? Where is the money going? I'm still learning what can be done. I do believe that I change my behavior, not based on what I think, but by how I feel. So, some of my work as a musician and songwriter is helping myself and others get to this place of feeling about the issues. And connecting with it in a heart way makes it real and personal. But in terms of what actually can be done - yeah, it's tricky. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Increasingly, yeah. I have been really grateful to carry this singing work. It's just oral tradition singing, which is really an ancient thing. My teacher calls it one of the most ancient technologies of belonging that's out there. It feels like such a gift to be able to carry that work and teach the songs. I don't know. It takes people reflecting back to me, again and again, what I'm doing to make me realize that, Oh, I do have these gifts that I'm sharing that matter. And so the past couples years, that's been a huge gift. I think it's an evolving thing, though. Getting people to sing together is good work and it will continue to evolve, you know, and get more specific.

But, honestly, a lot of the work related to recovery is letting go of my idea of how my life should go and just keep doing the next right thing. And that feels almost more important... yeah, just show me what you'd have me be. It's kinda scary to be in that place, but it's also really freeing. 'Cause I used to have this idea of like, I'm gonna do these things and da da da. And maybe there's still a place for that directive energy, but with a little less attachment. 

This might be ill-fitting given what you just said, but what do you want more of in your life?

Hmm. I think I want more brotherhood. You know? And that's something I still shy away from 'cause of how I learned to be either in competition or in fear of other men. Yeah, just like dudes that I can hang out with, be playful with, be honest with, talk about things that are going on. And I have that to some extent, but it's just hard; one of my good guy friends - he likes to go see really loud rock shows and smoke cigarettes and, I don't know, some of that stuff I'm not really that into. I think also just having my own space, even if it was like a room where I can feel some ownership in a space. I think a little bit more discipline. I had a drum lesson a couple weeks ago and he said, With any kind of practice, the first 10 minutes are actually the most beneficial. So, if you're gonna practice music for an hour a week, do it six days a week for 10 minutes. And this week I've done my physical therapy every day and it's made such a difference on my shoulder and my hip. Yeah.  

Do you want to ask me a question? I'll sit in the hot seat for a minute. 

Where is your edge these days? Where is that edge where there's some fear, but you're also really excited about something happening? The growth edge - whatever that means to you. 

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That's a great question. I guess I'm potentially wrong, but I want to experience some growth and a sense of pride in coming out on the other side of this project having lasted longer than the failure. I want to do it for long enough so that people get it. And I want to have the feeling of having persevered through it. Right now, I'm really unsure. Like, I'm sure when I talk to people that it's so important - that this thing that I spend nearly countless hours on - is valuable. But it's constantly trying to convince people of the value, so it gets really heavy and tiring and disheartening. So, I think it would be growth if I can get through that having convinced people of it and then get to do this work that I think is valuable and get to survive while doing it - that I would consider growth. I would be very excited about that. 

There's other heavier answers; I've got edges all over the place. I've got a lot of edges. I'm an edgy guy. And I find sitting here and having these interviews with people to be a really great way to show me those edges - and I don't know if we're talking about edges in the exact same way - but I think I've got a lot of stuff that could be ground down. And I also beat myself up a lot, so I kinda work on those edges often. It's like you said and others who are actively thinking about things - are you paying attention to stuff? I've got plenty of edges and it's just a matter of which ones am I paying attention to and which ones am I not working on and which ones am I proud of having worked on and which ones am I putting off to work on later? 

Moe Carrick referred a few folks to me and one of them was her son, Ian. We ended up meeting for this interview at Carol Delmonico's house, where Ian was housesitting. Within minutes we dove right into deep topics and our entire conversation had a very solemn tone.