Jesse Locke

Both Courtney Christenson and Shanan Kelley mentioned Jesse to me, but I have to give the formal referral credit to Shanan. Either way, I’m happy for the connection. The interview below is pretty different than many of the others. Maybe it’s because Jesse and I are peers or that we have a similar outlook or we are both into making pictures or maybe it’s all of that combined or something else entirely, but this interview felt like a conversation with an old friend. After their guard dog gave me the okay, Jesse and I chatted for quite a while before the interview and then chatted some more with Jesse’s wife. And we could have gone on and on. I highly recommend listening to this interview as Jesse’s got an enthusiastic way of speaking and a contagious laugh that I couldn’t figure out how to translate to the text. He’s a really good guy. I’ll stand by that. And I am so happy to introduce you to him here.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name is Jesse Locke. I am a dude just trying to live (laughs). I would describe myself as a creative person who's hardworking and with a good work ethic, which I find great pride in that. In my mind, that means I get a job and I finish it. And I'm constantly striving for better and more stimulation in life, I guess. You know, more things that I can do. I will never be satisfied with myself. I'm the guy who always wants satisfaction, but will never achieve it, I guess. That's me as a person. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

What motivates me is to be the best at my craft. I do watch the Oscar's every year and that motivates me. I want to be really good at what I do. Yeah, that motivates me - to be a good filmmaker; make a quality product. But then, as I get older, the motivation shifts from the perception of who I am and how people perceive me to I actually want to make a difference. So that is where I'm at now in my life, probably. I want to actually make a difference in this world and figure that out. That motivates me every day. And finding people to help me with that. And creating an environment around me with people with a common goal of like, let's actually try to shift some conversations and bring light to situations that people don't like to look at. That motivates me. 

What concerns you or gives you pause? What gives you a heavy heart?

I would say people who don't look outside themselves. I feel like I'm a searcher and I surround myself with people like that. What concerns me is bullshit and small talk. Those things - I have no real place for them in my life. Working in production and film, you have to kind of navigate those waters in doing that. I like to be around people and I love to be a person who is themselves and honest and true. Now, I understand it's hard to do that in life and so you have to kind of figure that out as you go... you will always know what I feel - I wear it on my sleeve - and I appreciate that about everyone else. So, when I get a heavy heart is when people aren't true to themselves and they don't try to look in the mirror every once in a while and say like, Who am I? What am I doing? That makes me upset. And bullshit - I think I mentioned that (laughs). 

What does it mean to you when you say 'make a difference'? 

Right. Good. It's changing. It changes daily - to try to diagnose or define that - a difference. As an American and not that bright, making a difference was not even on my radar. And then I had the lucky turn of fate to go over to Palestine and see these people and broaden my horizons of what humanity looks like and what this all kind of means. Like, what are doing in this world? Not just what are we doing in Oregon? What are we doing in Bend? You know, you can become as finite as you want. What am I doing today with my life? So, from that we made the film. And I started to find what making a difference to me would be. And using my skillset, which is film, to spread the word. To show people things that they haven't seen before. And try to change a narrative on a society of people - especially the Palestinians - that I feel like is very negative throughout the world and especially in America. So one step at a time, spreading this film - that's how I began to see I can make a change. 

Now... once you get that bug it grows. I got the bug - this is feeding my soul. It's interesting just talking about it; I don't often talk about this work. It does. And you want more of it. And you want to start doing more of this work. You want to start changing more people. And it becomes to a point that it's not good enough. And so, what do you do next - to change, to make a difference? Like, I'm not doing enough. I mean, I'm sure that we all think of that. Like, How do you do it? Then you get to feed it and you go, I can't do it 'cause I'm only one person. But now, to me, I've talked to a couple activists here in town and we've kind of come up... in my mind, through these conversations... making a difference now is giving people something to do. In my mind, how I diagnose that, I would show a film. And not only will we have a discussion about it afterwards - that used to be that was it, right - now, I want to give them a task or get them to engage in this movement, in this film, in these people in a way that I didn't before. And that's how I think I can make the biggest difference. 

What do we mean to each other - person to person? 

It depends on any given day. I think that it changes. Like, on a day, your person... you could be safety. It can be like a safe place to go and be yourself. I think in other aspects, you can go into the lion's den where you're not comfortable and surround yourself with people that you don't really know or like. (I'm feeling really positive today, so this is all great positivity.) When you do those type of things, you really find out a lot about yourself, as well - like, probably even more than surrounding yourself with the friends that you love and know and you can be yourself with. So it is interesting. I don't know. I think what we mean to each other is a constant learning process and for me personally, it's a constant struggle in non-judgment (laughs). So, when I see someone that I don't really agree with, it's a constant going, Well, try to walk a day in their shoes. That, to me, going forward in life, is one of the biggest things I want to work on. And not just blind judgment. And not just... 'cause I get in the car and I get really angry - I have a lot of road rage 'cause I don't feel like they think about other people. Who knows who they are and what they're doing in their life? That's like wisdom, in my mind - if you're able to actually have some compassion for people. So, it's a constant give and take - hanging out with this humanity and people. I don't know. You're always learning. 

Okay, here's the number one thing that I found out in life - the moment I think I know, I don't. And that's what humans and us, I think, has really shown me. Yeah. The second (snaps) I'm like, Oh yeah, I got it figured out. I know who you are. Then, nope - something happens and I'm like, Whoa, they're going through a lot of stuff. Holy mackerel, that's a different thing than I ever thought. And then being able to listen to that. (Laughs) Being able to be present and recognize, Whoa, this is happening. These are things, you know, I think that conscious human beings are... that's a great thing to have - that awareness. 

This is a constant daily struggle. I just want to say that for the record. I'm not trying to be like, I've figured it out! But that's the goal. I see the goal. It's hard to live that goal of actually being understanding and trying to be that person. But yeah, 'cause instilled in all of us is kind of the thought that we want to be right. Like, I want to be right in this situation. And then when people are really bashing you, you have to define - in my mind - you have to define that as being wrong. Which, those lines are also grey and a lot of times they're not black and white - which is tough to digest sometimes. 

What does it mean to you to be part of a community?

When I think about community, I think of it as a very superficial - which is interesting because I don't often define community - thing. In my mind, I think of neighborhoods and potlucks - things that I'm not really a part of. But I guess I am. Community is something... I don't know how to do this. It's like Who's the Boss? or like Wonder Years - that's a good example. Wonder Years would be a good definition in moving pictures of what I think community would be. In my mind, being a member of Bend, and thinking about it when I'm at the line, usually I'm more neurotic and so I'm thinking about myself. Especially at the post office, I'm like, How fast can I get through this? I'm definitely a selfish thinker when it comes to community. I'm thinking, Well, these people are irritating me. Especially on the road, like I was saying before, (laughs) This is just irritating. But as far as voting - yes, that is my way on the base level I feel like I join the community in a larger aspect. But with what I do and the project I've been in, I feel like I am a part of the community in a different way like trying to get a creative aspect to this town and trying to scratch out a little kind of area of artsy, creative things that I like to do. 

But then, to me, I have a community that I'm blessed to have - of my community. So, I think there's sub-levels to community. There's like the overall community of Bend, Oregon, which is like roads and stuff like that (laughs) - I'm very articulate. But, you know, water works and power company and then there's like divisions and there's stores and there's things and stuff people do here. And the type of people who come to this town. And then, I have my community of people that I love and, this is where I got to today, I'm so lucky to have these people. I could name a lot of people who have helped me and who I work with constantly in this community that I've been able to form throughout the many years that I've lived here. And I feel very lucky to have that. That's my community. Does that make sense? This is how I view my community in Bend is by dealing with these amazing people who inspire me every day. The greater community of Bend is something that I think of in kind of... I don't know how deep I want to get into this... in a different way (laughs). Does that make sense? 

Why do we sometimes come together and find our allies over things that are about hate and about creating division and a separateness between skin color or gender or region or religion? We end up taking away human rights. Just to go on the basic premise of we are all human. I think we could at least start there. 

And that's the base of a conversation, right? If we could get people to that, at least, but it's so hard to sometimes get people to that because of all their inner stuff they got going on. Now, why do people get together and hate? I think there's one huge word - it's fear. And control. So, when people are scared they want to lash out. To me, that's kind of a normality. If you try to diagnose what the hell is going on with all this hatred and this trauma, you would see - I feel like - it's fear based. Let's say for instance the white supremacist people - they have fear of losing control. They fear the unknown, I guess. They fear a bunch of things that, for some reason, that fear justifies their actions. You know? And they don't choose to think on a deeper level about what the hell's going on. They let their fear kind of breed. I mean, fear's one of the basic tactics of controlling a civilization or controlling a society, in my mind. So, that's how people come together, I believe - in fear. Because, I don't know - I don't want to sound like a pompous ass - but when you're not a thinker and you're not actively seeking information - in my opinion that would be like intelligence - when you stop doing that and you start drinking the shit, (laughs) drinking the Kool-aid, just digesting what you see on Facebook, what you see on the internet, what you see as that's all real at base value, then you stop analyzing - that's the word - you stop analyzing life and analyzing what's going on. You start just agreeing. And you become one of these - and it can be anything - then you become one of the herd. Then they can steer you in many ways because they know how to wield that far-based propaganda. In my mind. It is the unknown. I don't know. But, okay, in the form of Palestine/Israel - this is a good segue - I feel like the Israelis justify their treatment of the Palestinians because they have dehumanized them. So, they are no longer human - they are like dogs. And I heard many Israelis say that about them. So, that's how they, in their minds, can get passed all the shit that they're doing. They go, Oh, these aren't even people, so I can do whatever I want to them. Does that make sense? 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

I don't know. I don't know if I think of it... those aren't words that I use. I don't ever think of those things. I need to define that a little bit better. If it's success, do I have a sense of success? I don't know. 

Are you compelled - in ways you can't really explain - to do things? 

Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like I am a calculating person by means of I analyze situations.... and I work my way through life doing that, I feel like. Starting my own business and doing these things, I am kind of figuring it out. So I do calculate risk versus benefit in that way. There have been a couple times in my life - only a handful as of right now - where I was drawn and there was no doubt in my mind I was going to do this. It was very amazing and enlightening. So, this last trip to 7 Hills to finish that movie, I just knew I was gonna do it and there was nothing that was gonna stop me from doing it. I felt so 100% behind that. It's a rarity; that does not happen often. Like, same thing with going to Palestine. When Jesse asked me to go to Palestine, there was not a doubt - there was never a question. It was Yes - was the answer - Yes, I will do that. 

So, there's been a couple times in life... I guess that's purpose or I was meant to do that. And then as you go through these processes - I don't know if you have - but there are nuggets - and these are some of the greatest things about life - that life gives you a little nugget and goes, You're in the right place. So, I'm in friggin' Amman and I'm hanging out with these Gaza refugee kids and we're having an amazing time - they're gonna take me to this cookout and they're gonna cook food for me and I've been listening to this one song for the entire trip and we get in the car and he puts on that one song. And he's like, This is one of my favorite songs! And I just go, What the hell? That's life and those moments - look, I've got chills right now - those moments are what I live for and a hundred percent is the best parts about life. When you feel, without a doubt, that you're in the right place and the right time and you're living it. That's rare. Yeah, that's purpose, I guess. I don't know if it's purpose, but it's amazing to do that. And I feel like life will give you feedback like that. I believe in that. So, when you're in it and you're feeling it and you're in the zone and you're doing it, life will give you those little bones of like, Good job, dude. You're in the right spot.

You might have just answered it, but what do you want more of in your life?

Yeah. More of those. More of those times. More of those moments in life that go, Good job, man. You're doing it. You're on the right path. Nice job. Here it is. More of that feeling of you're on the right path, I guess. I keep saying that, but you're on the right move. You did the right thing there. That's good. It's a constant, daily thing of trying to figure out if you're doing the right thing or what you're doing, right (laughs). Shit! 

Do you want to ask me a question? I'll sit in the hot seat for a minute. 

Okay. I do have a question for ya. Do you believe in manifest destiny (i.e. you create your own way) or do you believe in fate?

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(Laughs) Great. You know, I can only answer it in a similar way that you just answered about purpose and this feeling of being in line with the right path. It's all language that's like, ‘What does it mean?' I think when things are going very poorly, I'm tempted to believe in manifest destiny. Like, I've created this mess. And when things are going really well, I think I'm a little more suspicious so I get excited and it's like, 'Yes, I'm living in my groove…' 

God, you know, I find it so difficult to have any of these conversations without it sounding very divine. And I'm so uncomfortable with that. Because I don't... I struggle with the word believe. I don't know what it matters - to believe or not believe. Is it real or not real? - is the question. So believe in the truth and don't believe in not the truth. Believe is a word I'm uncomfortable with, but it comes in in this explanation because whose fate? What is fate? How does fate come into play? And why do I feel nice when it seems like things are going how they should? And what does it mean for things to feel like they should? And if it's not any of that, if it's not the fate stuff - which is fine, I'm not attached to that being true - then why am I making such a mess of things? 

If it is up to me - it really doesn't feel... I will say it does not feel like it is up to me. I've had people in my life, romantic and otherwise, that have really felt like that - like you decide to be happy today, you decide for success, you decide, you decide, you decide. And I don't have that natural proclivity and that causes a lot of friction. Because they're looking at me like I'm screwing my life up and I'm looking at me like I'm wondering what's happening. Right? There's a huge gap between those two things. And I find this just very difficult for myself. I don't know how to answer that. I don't know if I can say I believe in this one or that one because I spent most of my time feeling very lost and confused while totally dedicated to a set of morals and values that somehow feel right. 

Both Courtney Christenson and Shanan Kelley mentioned Jesse to me, but I have to give the formal referral credit to Shanan. Either way, I'm happy for the connection. The interview below is pretty different than many of the others.

Erin Rook

Erin's name was sent my way on a couple of occasions, but I can officially give Amanda Stuermer the credit for connecting us for this interview. And then again, just after Amanda's referral, I met Erin briefly at a Community Conversations event. So, without reading too much into it, it seemed like we were meant to meet. And it might not have as much significance to him, but this being interview number 100 means quite a lot to me. Erin is so obviously doing heartfelt work and so articulate about it. Whenever I meet someone who seems to be living in line with their values, it warms my heart and encourages me. We don't always get to know the effect we have on folks, especially as we go about some of the more mundane details of our daily routines, but people are watching and taking note and we are having an effect. I'd like to say thank you to Erin for the positive impact he made on me and likely whoever takes the time to read or listen below. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, I'd say like most humans, I'm complex and nuanced in a lot of different things. But among other things, maybe most obviously, I'm a white man. But I'm also a member of the LGBTQ community. I'm a member of the Baha’i Faith. I'm a survivor of intimate partner violence. A number of other maybe personal identities in that way, but I also identify strongly as an advocate in a variety of contexts. I am active volunteering with the Human Dignity Coalition and promoting LGBTQ equality in that sense, but also in my professional life as the Diversity Coordinator at OSU Cascades. Advocacy plays a strong role in that job as well. I guess I see myself as someone who is always looking for ways to help people out or to support them or help make connections - things like that. 

Even though I'm not currently working as a journalist, I see being a journalist as kind of a part of my identity - I think that the values and principles that come with that field still really resonate for me and I think inform the way I approach other work. And I guess I would say, otherwise, in terms of how I describe myself, I'm an introvert whose work and passions require me to behave as an extrovert and so that's always a fun challenge. 

And then the other thing that comes to mind - when I was younger, I used to describe myself as kind of being an English to English translator. It's not the most graceful way to describe it, but I think I often see myself in a role of trying to help people understand each other in some way or another. That, I think, has kind of informed a lot of the work that I've done. Whether it was as a journalist - I mean, I think in that role, certainly, a big part of your job is to take information that's maybe complex or confusing or just a lot and to condense that and distill that down so the public can understand that as well to help people on different sides of an issue kind of see where the other is coming from. So, I think that's played a lot into my journalism work, but also I worked at Saving Grace for a few years. And I think a big part of that, too, in my sense, was helping the community understand this really vital issue and what it has to do with them and how they can have some impact on it. And then, certainly in my role here, a lot of it's just helping people understand where other people are coming from and trying to explain concepts in ways that meet people where they're at. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

I think what matters to me and kind of what motivates the work that I do is, as cheesy as it might sound, just to be of service to others. That's a value that I think my parents taught me from a young age and something that's always stuck with me and where I feel like I'm having impact and I can help make things better for people. So, always trying to find ways to kind of root for the underdog or think about who's not at the table and should be, or how can we make something more accessible - you know, make sure we're serving everyone. 

Just trying to think about how to make things better, but I think beyond that, I'm often kind of zooming out and zooming in. There's this idea... that some folks are maybe more comfortable zoomed out and others more comfortable zoomed in and I feel like I kind of bounce back and forth between those things because, to me, it seems like if you are wanting to be of service to others, part of that is about the interpersonal - that one on one, understanding where they're at, what are their particular needs, where are they coming from. But then another piece of that is really systemic. And so I'm really interested in both those levels, I guess. So, thinking about how can I have a positive impact on people in that interpersonal, day-to-day kind of way, but also how can I impact systems that determine how people's lives kind of flow and how well they go? To try and create change that's gonna have maybe a more lasting impact - that's kinda my primary motivation for most of what I do. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

What concerns me or gives me a heavy heart in a broad sense is when I perceive that two or two groups really have a shared interest, value, whatever, but they're butting heads - when it feels like there's a conflict that doesn't need to exist, right, something that's only there because of miscommunication or misunderstanding. That can be really frustrating to see the really negative impacts that kind of difference of perception can have. And just the extent to which people are willing to be hateful and unkind and cruel - that gives me a heavy heart, right? Things like recognizing that about 40% of all homeless youth are LGBTQ and that largely that's because their families have kicked them out of their homes or made their homes a place that's not safe to live - to be themselves. Kind of being confronted with that ugliness that humanity is capable of in ways that... yeah, I just don't get it... when it's your own family or your own community. So, that certainly gives me that sense of heaviness, but I think a particular level of frustration when it seems so unnecessary. Not that any of it's ever necessary, right, but when there's conflicts that come out of just poor communication or a failure to really engage in a meaningful way or out of straight ignorance 'cause people aren't willing to learn, I find that really hard. And then, in general, just having to see the impacts this stuff has on people of oppression and marginalization and discrimination. But I think part of how I deal with that is the other side of the coin - is feeling like, Okay, what am I gonna do about that? There's bad stuff in the world - there's negativity, whatever - but what can I do concretely to try to make a positive impact? 

What do we mean to each other, person to person? 

I don't usually speak in religiousy-type terms because I'm not a super religiousy person, but I do think that... from my faith background there's this teaching that work done in the spirit of service is a form of worship and that has always really resonated with me. Because I think that when we act in service to one another, part of that's about recognizing kind of the divinity or the sacredness or the commonality - whatever you want to call it - universal consciousness or however you want to conceptualize that. But I think that's about recognizing that in that other person. In my mind, we're all connected whether we see that or not. And so when we cause harm to others, we're causing harm to ourselves. So, I think that, yeah, we have to react to others in ways that we would want others to respond to us. Or, I suppose, if you want pull out the Platinum Rule instead of the Golden Rule, how do other people want to be treated? And we should treat them in that way. So, I think we're here to support each other's growth and, yeah, to the extent that we can focus on that instead of tearing each other down, I think it builds us all up. I don't know if that actually answers your question or not. 

What does it mean to you to be a part of community?

Community, to me, is about people recognizing their shared experiences and shared values or principles and drawing kind of strength and companionship, on some level, from that. I'm a part of many different communities, but to me one of the great things about going back to community is that feeling of being at home and being understood and accepted even when there isn't understanding. The sense of like, Well, you're part of our community and so even if we don't always see eye to eye or don't always understand where each other's coming from, we still value each other. And we're still gonna try to understand. But I think, yeah, community can look like a lot of different things. There's a lot of different overlapping circles, right? And certainly geographic is one way that that manifests, but the LGBTQ community is a community I'm a part of; the academic community; the activist/advocate community; I'm part of communities online that span across the globe. I think it's helpful for us to have multiple kinds of communities that we engage with, but certainly in an ideal world the physical communities that we live in would also feel like those kind of more chosen communities, if that makes sense. 

I have been struggling to find succinct language for this question, but the topic is social injustice and human rights or a lack thereof or a taking away of them. This underlying hyper focus on our differences and the creation of systems that keep us separate is confusing. What are we meant to do about it? People are working on the different forms of it separately. Do you have thoughts on what might connect all of those?   

Well, that's a good question and it's something that I think about fairly often since a lot of the work that I do involves diversity and equity and social justice and all this kind of stuff. And I do find that we often will be in spaces talking about a very specific manifestation of social injustice. I think you need both things. I think we do need to have times where we're focusing on the really specific example, right, because there's different factors that play in - there's certainly commonalities, systemically, that factor into all these kinds of oppression, but they're all unique in a way. I think different people find it easier to enter into conversations about different elements - of diversity, or discrimination - but I do think that it would be great if we could have more conversations that tie those things together. And partly because I think some people have an easier time entering the conversation from different angles, right? 

So, for example, a lot of white folks have a hard time hearing that they have white privilege. And that's understandable, particularly if someone's coming from a background that doesn't feel very privileged, right? Maybe you grew up in poverty or you've dealt with chronic illness all your life or whatever the case may be. But if part of that conversation also addresses sexism or classism or other forms of systemic oppression, then that person might have an easier time understanding, Oh, well I experience it in this way. Now I can see how someone else experiences it in this other way and how, in that case, I'm on the other side of the line. I think we do need to connect the dots more than we sometimes do. 

I think the first question you asked is a big question, What do we do about that? (Laughs) No pressure, solve all the problems today. But I do think in addition to kind of linking those things together a little bit more so that people can see the multi-faceted sides of this thing, having that human element in there as much as we can... there have been studies that show that just having a conversation with someone or knowing someone from a particular group makes you much, much more likely to support them having equal rights. If you don't know someone in X, Y, Z category, you're much less inclined to care about how they're walking through the world, right? So I think we need to learn how to have conversations across those differences in a way that's safe for everyone involved. Because those can feel risky, regardless of where you're coming from, in different ways. If you're coming from a marginalized background it feels really risky to be vulnerable to open yourself up to sharing with someone who may then just shut you down or cause you harm in some way. But if you're coming from a position of being kind of in a dominant group in society, then that can feel threatening for other reasons, right?

So I think the more we can learn to have just human conversations across those differences and to separate out this idea that racism and sexism and all these bad isms are caused by bad people... like we have this idea that racists are all wearing swastikas - just the worst manifestation we can think of - when the reality is we all are complicit in these systems every day. I'm a little bit racist; you're a little bit racist; probably anyone reading this is a little bit... you know, that's just the reality. But because we attach that so strongly to someone's goodness as a person, it makes it really hard for us to be able to see the ways in which we're complicit in those systems because if that means saying, I'm a bad person - like, who wants to do that? No one wants to say, Oh, let me engage in this difficult material and think about what a terrible person I am. (Laughs) We just have to realize that that's the water we swim in - the air we breathe - and we can't put on some kind of biohazard suit and keep it all out, so we have to face it and deal with it. So I think a willingness to have those kind of honest conversations with ourselves and to not make it this really black/white, good/bad thing would make a difference. But I do think we have to talk about the particulars and to borrow a phrase that I can't remember where I heard it, but probably in some social justice training context, there's this idea of making the invisible visible. Because most people don't really see the larger structures that influence these dynamics. They think, Well, I'm not being a racist. I'm not committing an act of terribleness against this person. So I'm good, right? But there are these larger systems that have been in place for thousands of years and continue to just kinda support themselves and so I think helping people see those and see the ways in which we've all kinda just been brought along by that, whether we wanted to be or not. I want to think that's helpful, at least. I don't know. We just have to see each other as humans and not be so attached to kinda the privilege that we have that we have not done anything to earn. You know? 

Do you have a sense of purpose? 

Gosh, I hope so (laughs). Yeah. That's something that feels strong to me. I think it goes back to that being in service to others. But beyond that, too, I think I do feel sense of purpose around trying to use my voice to I guess speak up for folks that may not have that voice or feel safe using it. To that extent, I try to be pretty open and vulnerable and honest about my own life experiences because I realize that not everyone's in a position to do that safely. And because I do know that making that personal connection, knowing someone who has X, Y, Z life experience makes a big difference. But it could be literally dangerous for some people to share those things about their lives. So I think those two threads go together for me, right? That being willing to be open and honest and authentic with people with the intention of this kind of larger goal of service. If that makes sense. 

To me, purpose is why you get up in the morning and do whatever it is you do. It's just about making the world a better place, making yourself a better person. But it doesn't have to necessarily be a grandiose thing. I think someone's sense of purpose could just be being a good friend or being a good parent or having the most beautiful garden in the neighborhood (laughs). I don't know. There's a lot of ways that could play out for people.

What do you want more of in your life?

Time (laughs). That's the fast answer, but it's probably true in some way. It just seems like there are so many things to be engaged in, which is a good thing. There's a lot going on in our community right now - a lot of really interesting work particularly around diversity, equity, and inclusion, and social justice, and having conversations across difference. The silly practical answer is time. I think otherwise, just more opportunities to connect with people who are doing interesting things and who have life experiences that I haven't connected with before. Yeah, more time; more opportunities to have the conversations that I want to have; to do the projects that I'd like to be engaged in. I think, generally, I have a lot of the things in my life that I'd like to have. I'm pretty content. There's not a lot missing in that sense, but it never feels like there's enough time to do all the things that I'd like to do.

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

I don't think so. I'm just glad to see more conversation-based projects. I mean, we're having a conversation, right, but it's also a conversation between the community and the people that you're profiling and the more that we can share our humanity with each other in vulnerable and relatively safe ways, I think that's a good thing. And I'm looking forward to seeing where that takes our community. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me? 

What inspired you to take on this kind of a project? Or has there been a big takeaway or a lesson or something you've gleaned from doing this kind of work? 

---

I mentioned to you before, this is kind of the second project with some similarities that I've undertaken. The takeaway or what I've learned is in progress, for sure. The why is difficult for me to explain. I think it's difficult for me to understand. I don't know that I can be positive that it's my purpose. Like we talked about, I don't know what all that implies, but it's definitely a compulsion; I'm curious about people. I'm curious about who the groundskeeper is or who's making this noise outside with the generator and washing the sidewalk and who cuts me off in traffic. What's on their mind? And was it intentional? And how do they feel about doing it if it was?

The big thing for this project, I'm curious about finding a way to soften - me, too, but all of us - in the way we function in the world. It all feels very harsh. And then I'm also reminded daily of the ways that I'm harsh and the ways that I don't live up to my own set of ideals and morals and values and how difficult it is to stay on top of constant kindness. So I guess I can't honestly say this is what came through my mind when this project idea kind of came across my brain, right? But these are all things that I have been thinking about for a long time and this is a way I can explore some of it. I think connecting with more and more people and finding more and more in common with each person seems to be the only way that I've figured out how to have a little bit more peace. 

Erin's name was sent my way on a couple of occasions, but I can officially give Amanda Stuermer the credit for connecting us for this interview. And then again, just after Amanda's referral, I met Erin briefly at a Community Conversations event. So, without reading too much into it, it seemed like we were meant to meet.

Wade Fagen

Jim Radloff referred Wade to me way back in early summer, but due to a number of scheduling conflicts, it took a few months for us to finally meet. In answer to my needing a quiet place to record our conversation, Wade suggested we pile into his truck and head out into the woods. On the ride out there, Wade pointed to swaths of forest where logging and controlled burns had taken place. He pointed out healthy and unhealthy patches of forest and he gave me a political and cultural education about logging. I loved seeing the world through his eyes. I was once again reminded that there are so many things I don't know - so many things I have an opinion on that I simply just don't understand. And I'd venture to guess that the same is true for you. I enjoyed my time with Wade very much and I'm excited to introduce you to him here. Our interview ends in a rather big discussion about what gives me a heavy heart. I decided not to transcribe it at length, but if you are inclined to listen, it's all there in the audio.  

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

(Laughs) I should have read some of the things. I'm Wade Fagen. Born in Bend, Oregon. Had a childhood at the University of Kansas - very liberal childhood. Very liberal mom, very conservative dad. And I like to think of myself kind of in some ways - I don't know bad or good - a one-track scatterbrain person. I like to think up a lot of ideas. I like to be balanced politically. I like to be a good father, a good husband. Who am I? 

Going through art classes in college, I learned about the Renaissance era and Renaissance men, like Michelangelo, and I thought, That would be really cool to be good at a lot of things. And I find myself pretty good at a lot of things. I think it's worked out pretty well. The bad side of it might be that I get easily distracted and I don't follow through on some things, but it's all good. I feel very blessed in my life. Feel a good relationship with the man up above. I don't know how else to answer who I am. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

Efficiency. To see things work with the minimal amount of effort. To make anything more efficient, I found, is what I enjoy doing. If there's a problem, I like fixing problems. And efficiency encompasses everything. So like, when I was falling timber and when you're logging, efficiency was of maximum importance because logging is an older industry that has lost its lucrativeness because everybody's in the market, competing for such a long time. Where computer industry's so new you can stumble on something and it's very lucrative - it's a new business. And so I found in logging, efficiency was of utmost importance because when it came down to it, you're trying to balance production with a smaller footprint on the forest with maximum safety. So, that's all efficiency. What more do you risk at getting hurt or what more do you risk at doing damage to the forest to increase production and your profits? So, yeah, efficiency motivates me every morning. Efficiency.

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

The political... well, I'll tell you what I've always believed the number one world problem is: it's not the lobbyist in our Congress; it's the lobbyist money in the United States Congress. America campaign finance reform, to me, is the number one world problem. We've got to get it so corporations can't contribute to a political fund. Because whether it's forests or the price of beans in Australia, every problem that I've ever had to deal with (laughs) practically on a social level comes from the United States Congress - or 90 percent of 'em. So, I would say that's a funny, weird thing that gives me a heavy heart because I think our country is the leader of the free world - free enterprising world. I think that free enterprise is of the utmost importance to humanity. To be able to get up every morning and do what you want to do in your heart and enjoy will make you the most efficient and productive person you can be because you're doing what your heart has called you to do as opposed to what some political king or dictator has made you do. So America, I think, short of monopolies, is great because of that; not because of what race we are or who came here. It's because our founding fathers established a free enterprise system for us. 

What was the question (laughs)? Oh, the heavy heart - is losing that. Because that also relates to the forest, which I'm very passionate about - all the government regulation in the forest. And the manipulation of those resources. I've come up with that heavy heart because of the problem I lived through - reinventing myself through the era of the spotted owl. And then, being an efficiency-minded person, I wanted to look deeper. What caused me to lose my job as a logger in the town that I love? You know? What's the deeper, deeper, deeper problem? And that's what I've come up with. We need campaign finance reform... it's simple, why can't we just make a regulation? You cannot contribute to any sort of campaign over $100 per registered voter. If a corporation wants to promote some campaign or some political party or something, that's fine; just put your name right underneath it, We're for this. That's fine. That's freedom of speech. But to say you can go and give money and leverage power against a politician is insanity. And that's gotta be changed. As well as a few other little things we could go into, but... 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

I would think we're of the utmost importance to reproduce and to friendship and support. 

I mean, we mean everything to each other. Unless there's too many of us and tourism and then they can go away (laughs). We mean everything to each other. Nobody wants to be on the planet alone. Right?

What does it mean to you to be a part of a community?

Well, I kind of believe in that... I don't even know how it goes - god, self, family, community, world. You take care of each one of 'em and I think you're a better fit into the community. And just as far as my community goes, I think community and socializing and accepting and like our church says, All are welcome, is of the utmost importance. You know? Save your community and save the world. And save your family, save the world. But that's the next step out... beyond your family, so I think community's of the utmost importance. I like tradition. I like the history of the community. Learning as a community - that's what's gonna help keep the world go 'round in an efficient manner. 

I have a heavy heart especially in regards to the taking away of basic human rights and for social injustice and for greed. What kind of effect does that stuff have on you? And what can you do about it?

That's one of the million-dollar questions. Yeah. I am for social justice and I think that's where efficiency comes in. If people weren’t so greedy... and when you think of free enterprise, you think of capitalism; when you think of capitalism, you think of the monopoly mongers. There's the bad capitalists, you know, that are all about money. But that's where I come in as a sentimental capitalist - as a hoarder - that everything has a value. And you've seen with my older equipment that I don't need to extract more resources for a new piece of equipment to have my business look good so that people will like me and do business with me. I need to do a good job so people will like me and do business with me. And if that older piece of equipment can do it, it's like, More power to ya. You did with less that other people can't do with more. And so maybe there's a chip on my shoulder for that. 

And when it comes to social injustice, I learned back in the University of Kansas - where I was growing up as my mom was going to school... my three best friends were all little guys: there was a red-headed, freckle-faced Rusty Brunns; a Mexican, Richard Rodriguez; and a black kid, Greg Francisco. And that religious family that was down the street from me... they were an adopted family and they were all adopted: a caucasian daughter was the oldest; a caucasian boy named Marty, a little older; two Vietnamese girls, my age; and a little black boy. So prejudice and injustice.... I always think of Saturday morning cartoons and the Hall of Justice with Superman, but to me that's where it's at. I would love to see a day when we could use the N-word and it had no effect. You could call me a Honkie and I'd like, Yup. I would love to see prejudice come to an end. Again - your heavy heart on injustice - if you took a specific problem, we could discuss it and I'll bet you it leads back to the lobbyist money in the United States Congress again. If you're about injustice, get campaign finance reform in the United States political system. That's the number one world problem. You say it lightly, but if that's where you're depressed, concentrate on that problem. Fix it. 

Do you have a sense of purpose? 

I wish (laughs)! Still trying to figure it out. I grew up - I think it's kinda different from the millenials or even my kids, you know maybe I'm the last of the generations that think, Become a man, get a job, buy a house, find a wife, get married, have kids. So my purpose was maybe to raise a family just because I, you know, did that. That's what society did. Now my kids are like, Oh, let's have a baby. Ahh, let's think about getting married. Ahh, oh, maybe we'll get a house. You know, what's your sense of purpose? Maybe they've got it right because their sense of purpose is happy. My sense of purpose was to earn an income and become a stable financial person to be able to raise a family. Just a whole different concept. 

Now my purpose... I've really fallen in love with the forest. And one of my biggest passions would be straightening out the forest. So my sense of purpose right now would be to help society straighten out their forest problems - I guess that's a sense of purpose. And, obviously, be a good dad and all that along the way... 

What do you want more of in your life?

Youth (laughs). Youth! I've always been a very physical, hard-working - probably if anybody said anything about me, one thing they know me as is hard-working. But as you get older, time chisels away on you piece by piece where you don't even notice it until you're 10 years down the road and you're just going, God, I can't do that as fast as I used to. I'd like to see more love and acceptance in the world. And I mean that in the most real way. I'm a wishy-washy guy, meaning liberal and conservative and bounce back and forth. I love the forest and I'm a logger. Well, maybe the executioner appreciates life more than anybody else. So maybe the timber faller appreciates trees more than anybody else. I want to see openness and acceptance and I want to see it on the liberal side. My kids talk about being open-minded. And they know me on forestry; they won't debate me on forestry. But, boy, they're liberal in other ways that I'm not. They know they can't win at forestry. But on the other ways, they want me to be more open-minded, but yet they don't want to be open-minded about the old ways! And I said, Hey, if you want me to accept your ways and you think it's logical, why can't you be accepting and open-minded about these conservative, closed ways - just looking into 'em? That's what the world needs is real open-minded, not greenwash or... We need open-minded, all are welcome people. Even in our new church - All are welcome is hard for some of our parishioners to accept fully and completely. You know, everybody probably has their level. Not everybody's black or white; they might become blacker quicker or whiter quicker or whatever, but open-mindedness - how far do you want to go along to help people? And help people... you'd have to judge 'em - who deserves to be helped and who doesn't? You know, when you are helping your children and when are you hurting them by enabling them? So, open-mindedness, yeah. We need to be more open. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me? 

Yeah. When you said you have a heavy heart, I was really interested in that. What is it that's heaviest on your heart? 

---

Well, I guess what's heaviest on my heart isn't so much this umbrella of social injustice 'cause there's so many things underneath it - I do think they're all essentially the same; I think they have the same cause - but it's that I'm capable of it, too. It's starting to affect me in small ways. So, I go through town, right? The parkway comes through town at 45 miles an hour, but it's an interstate - 65 miles an hour is the minimum that people are doing. As I'm trying to get onto the road, I'm this victim, right? I picture myself as this person just trying to fight for my spot in the flow. And so I can see it from that perspective. But if I'm on the highway, I get all bent out of shape if someone tries to squeeze in front of me. So it's this one, basic thing that happens every day that I get in my car. I'm either this person or I'm that person. And depending on which perspective I'm looking at it from, I'm either the hero or I'm the victim. And that's just one really generic... what else? What do I do every day in my interactions with my girlfriend or with my friends or does this thing that I say offend this person or did I say something that made me sound good and it's not exactly what I believe? I don't know. There's a whole slew of... judgments that I carry at the same time as I want to go around saying what we need. How am I failing? 

Do you believe in god?

Umm, I have a very difficult time with the word believe. I don't know. Nobody knows, so I don't know about that. I'm open to the idea, but it doesn't affect me one way or another. 

So where do you get your faith from? 

Faith in what? 

* Conversation continued in the audio…

Jim Radloff referred Wade to me way back in early summer, but due to a number of scheduling conflicts, it took a few months for us to finally meet. In answer to my needing a quiet place to record our conversation, Wade suggested we pile into his truck and head out into the woods.

Tim Hellmann

Tim is another Liz Goodrich recommendation. And another gem! We exchanged a few emails before meeting and each of them brought a smile to my face as Tim's got a lovely way with words. I find it really interesting to correspond with a stranger and then show up at their door without any idea of what they look like or how old they are or anything about them other than a few kind words passed along from another. After sitting in the wrong driveway for several minutes (I'm habitually early) and then realizing it at the last moment, I made my way to Tim's front door and only made it a few paces inside before we were deep into conversation. Tim and I have many points of commonality in our backgrounds and likely the most impactful is our growing up in and then leaving the fundamentalist church. There are many things to discuss in that realm, but one of the more interesting and lesser discussed points is what that does to the use and understanding of certain words. Purpose is one. Belief is another. Good and evil are a couple more. Anyway, it's a long list. I loved chatting with Tim because he seems to have found a way to put judgment aside while navigating life. I'm still working on that, so I'm thankful for the example. 

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am a father, a husband. I think something else that as far as how I would identify myself right now - kind of a recovering fundamentalist. Spent a lot of my life chasing after certainty. And I'm somebody who's trying to rediscover curiosity and just being able to lean into uncertainty. I would say that's one of the bigger marks of my life right now. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

If I were to be blunt, fear motivates me. Which I think kinda ties into my last question that I'm trying to start learning to lean into that and understand it better and still pursue my values, even in face of that fear. Which is partly this interview - something I was definitely a little bit resistant to at first, but just trying to lean into those things. I used to work with juvenile delinquent boys and one of the founders of the residential facility that I worked at had a saying that's been attributed to him that Beauty is the silent teacher. And I think that's one of the things that has been motivating for me just as far as trying to create that for my kids -whether it be through keeping the house clean or taking care of other things - just really trying to instill that. We talked briefly about me being an aspiring photographer - just using that lens to bring some beauty into the world that people can see. And just understanding how profound beauty can be as a teacher. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

I think one of things that gives me a heavy heart is just the level of individualism in our society right now. My background's in sociology. I've always been a very collectivist thinker - kind of understanding how these structural systems are all working together. Though it's been heading this way for a while, I think seeing the present political climate and just how kind of isolating it all feels and how we've all retracted into our own little bubbles and with our own kind of binary, black and white issues - that's one of the things that definitely has been troubling to me, especially as I raise two kids and I'm thinking a lot more about not just the physical environment, but just the social environment that they're growing up with. It's very daunting knowing how to navigate that and teaching them to be able to look out for other people and just be aware of the world outside of their individual cocoon. 

Where do you find peace or livability through that? What enables you to continue on? 

Two things: I think one thing is being a dad and knowing that I'm raising two kids that are going to go out into the world has been invigorating for me just wanting to, again, instill those values. And then I think, too - just learning to be intentional. I have a tendency to kind of rage against the darkness at times, but just kind of getting to that point of realizing that sometimes I just need to turn on a light. I need to just live out my values; I need to live out my love, peace - you know, all those different things that I value - in front of my kids, in front of my family and just allow that to be part of my mark on the world. 

What do you think we mean to each other, person to person? 

Hopefully I'll answer your question, but I might veer off slightly. As I've gotten older, I think I'm starting to see the value in our stories and being seen - as that ties into community, as that ties into a lot of different things. And I think that's what I mean to people and I think that's what people mean to me is just being able to be seen - be visible, to have someone that can hear my story and accept me and affirm me. And also be that for other people - just someone that can actually see you beyond our carefully curated Facebook image that we put out. Just that authenticity and, again, being seen. 

What does being part of a community mean to you?

I think it goes back to what I was just talking about to some extent - it's just find that safe place that I can be seen. I recently started a men's group in Bend and there's about 10 to 15 of us right now and it's really just a space for us to get together on a monthly basis - sometimes a little more often - and just share; to be real, to be authentic. Not necessarily in the sense of fixing each other's problems, but really just discussing What is manhood? What is being a husband? What is being a parent in our present culture? And that's been pretty remarkable, I think - just the level of, again, authenticity that we've been able to generate. I've got what I would see as a community of 10 to 15 guys where we can sit down and tell our stories; we can look each other in the eye and say This is me. It's not my carefully edited Facebook pictures of my family vacation or that my kid's on the honor roll, but kinda the blemishes. To me, that's community and it's something that I would love to see expand. We've even talked about getting our families together once every three/four months and kind of connecting through that. That's been one area. To me, that's what community is. It's not necessarily going into town and seeing someone that I know, but again, being around a group of people that really see me and that are willing to hear my story. 

What do you think the greater value or the longevity is in being seen as an individual?

I think in the end, that's what we have is our stories. I know as a parent there are times as I'm going through different parenting frustrations, sometimes just hearing that somebody else is going through that as well - even without answers, without strategies - just I'm not alone in this. I think there's a lot of power to that - just knowing that we're not alone. And I think as we move forward and those stories are passed on, I do find a lot of value in that. 

How do we take care of human rights and injustices? How do you do it? 

I think the answer is somewhat in your question just in the sense that I think we all do have our areas of passion - we all do have our areas that we may understand better; we may be able to provide a voice, to be an ally for - and I do think it starts there. I sometimes fear because I write a lot that I'm just hiding behind a keyboard. I'm trying to make people aware of these situations; I'm trying to provide my voice because I have a small readership - they'll be able to see what I'm putting out there. But I do wrestle with that same thing. Am I just sitting behind a keyboard and I'm not actively involved in these communities? I do think it's integral, but again, even that has its own problem wrapped into it: how do I be an ally without drowning out their voice? And I think that's very easy to do. I mentioned my background was in sociology - I think it's very easy for me to look at social theories and put things out there, but am I actually listening to these cries of injustice and what they're looking for? So, personally, I feel like the best that I have to offer right now is just to listen. To listen as best as I can - to ask questions; to be curious; to ask what's needed of these communities from us - and then become involved. Right now, that's my writing. To some extent, I think it's my parenting - it's making my children aware of these situations, trying to create a global consciousness in them so as they get older, they're continuing to pass that on. I don't know if I'm exactly answering your question? It's a tough question. 

Do you think there's a point of critical mass or a tipping point?

Not necessarily. One of my areas of interest is racial inequality. We went through these decades and centuries of overt racism and structural violence. And we've gotten to a point where overt acts of racism are somewhat frowned upon, but now it's become very covert and there's a lot of other ways to pass on these inequalities that are - I don't want to say they're more insidious, but because they're so imperceptible to a lot of people they become more - insidious. I don't know if we're gonna hit critical mass. I feel like these issues have been around since they beginning. They continue to morph and change, but as far as hitting critical mass, I don't believe they will. 

What are your thoughts on the philosophical problem of evil, which I think ties into all of that social inequality? 

I think sometimes the very framing of evil is almost part of the problem. I think it does become a philosophical debate about What is evil? and then What is the remedy? and Which religious group has the answer? It's not a conceptualization I use with my kids. I think it really gets back to dehumanizing people. Seeing that as the - I really don't even know how to frame it - the central absence of good, but I wouldn't even necessarily frame it as evil. 

I'm not a big fan of telling stories that are widely told, but I still have been struck by the story of this kid who was walking along the shoreline after a big storm and just throwing [starfish] back into the water - one by one, just walking down the shoreline. And this older man walked by and said, Do you really think you're gonna make a difference? There are just thousands and thousands and thousands of these [starfish]. The story goes the boy picked one up, threw it in the water, and said, It made a difference to that one. And I think that's where I have to be. I have to be in a spot where I can't solve the bigger problems. I can only impact what's in front of me. I mean, I have to keep my eyes open; I have to be curious; I have to listen. But I think at times I try to take it all on and it's just paralysis - I become so overwhelmed by the broader issues that it's easy to just shut down completely. So I think for myself, it's having to just be aware of what's in front of me and making changes where I can make changes and hoping that it reverberates out. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Yes... there's a lot wrapped up into that. Unfortunately, some of it ties back into my fear, but I think creating a safe place for my children and for my wife is one of my central purposes. We talked kind of briefly about our backgrounds in the past, and I think just having grown up with a somewhat tumultuous childhood that is a huge deal for me now - is just making sure my kids feel safe and my wife has a great place to come back to when she gets off of work. So I would say that's a lot of my purpose. And then, too, I think - and we touched on it briefly - is just trying to provide a voice for those people who do not have a voice. I don't always know what that looks like. At times I am concerned that it comes off as paternalistic or condescending, but just trying to become better at that - just becoming an ally for those that may not have the ability to say anything. Being that voice, but also learning how can we provide them a voice where it's not always facilitated through someone who basically has a lot of privilege in this society. 

What do you want more of in your life?

That is a tough question. Shouldn't be. I'm going somewhere with this... we recently bought a house about a year ago and a couple weeks ago we had a birthday party for my son and I was sitting outside under our willow tree and it was the first time I'd actually sat out there and just enjoyed it. And I think, for myself, what I want more of is just those times I can take a deep breath and enjoy what I have because I think I can get caught up in pursuits - wanting more, always feeling like there's something else to do - and I think, at times, just more of an awareness of what's around me at the time. I think about that sometimes with my kids as I'm trying to clean the house and provide this life for them that I envision and I'm also ignoring that they're wanting to show me how well they can juggle or something they just drew. So what I want more of is just an awareness of right now because I can get very caught up in where I'm heading and what I want to do tomorrow. Again, I can frame it very selflessly - This is what I'm trying to do for my children or my wife. But sometimes realizing that what they need and what I need is just attention - just being there in that moment with them. So, I think that's one of the things that I really would like more of. Which is in my grasp - it's really just a choice that I'm making. 

Do you have anything else you'd like to put out there so you won't be kicking yourself later?

I'd rather just kick myself later (laughs). 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me? 

Where do you see this project in five years or where would you like to see it? Do you have a vision or is it what you see right now - you just want that to continue - or do you have a vision in five to ten years of where you would like this to go? 

---

(Laughs) I appreciate the way you asked it - it's a bit more fair than how some people do. I'm not much of a planner - I'll start answering it by saying that. I'm pretty content to show up even in a foreign country - maybe I've got the first night of Airbnb, right, but I need to map it all out.  I think there might be a fair amount of hypocrisy in what I'm about to say, but I'm fairly excited about the journey. But then while I'm in the journey I'm freaking out. And I guess that's probably the fairest way to say this. I'd love to say I'm just really excited to see where this goes, but every single day I feel tormented by not knowing. I'm not married to the project looking as it does. I'm happy to see it evolve and change and grow. I do hope that in five years that I have a bit more peace in it, that I'm feeling some satisfaction in the numbers that it's reaching and the potential impact that is has. Right now I'm really sad and confused by the seeming lack of effect this particular ripple is having. And I'm struggling to figure out how much more of my own energy and time I can put into it. I put in so much.

It's interesting - the things that really become popular, in my experience, seem to lose so much of their value and they just become a thing to associate with without real magnetism or real draw or real effect, so I also don't want that. I don't want it to just be on the tip of someone's tongue, but I want it to be affecting lives. I'd really love - and it's hard 'cause I don't have a clear vision of what my payday is in it as far as just making it sustainable - but I'd love for people to just begin doing this on their own. Even if it's not documenting it for the world to see, but really just engaging with people that they don't know. You can have a pretty deep and meaningful conversation with a total stranger. Boy, I don't know that I answered that very succinctly, but I'd like to have some impact. 

I know I've had this happen in my own life where I felt the futility of what I was doing. It felt futile - it wasn't. And then someone will touch base with me five years later and say, That really had an impact on me. And I think, too, just knowing that as you're moving forward with something you value, you may not always see the ripples, but they're out there. You may have those moments from time to time where you realize what a profound impact it had. It's happened to me several times where I thought, How much did this really ever matter? and realized years later that it really did. I think it's an amazing project. When I looked it up when we first touched base, I was pretty excited about it and I've mentioned it to some of my friends. There's definitely the beginning of a ripple here. 

Tim is another Liz Goodrich recommendation. And another gem! We exchanged a few emails before meeting and each of them brought a smile to my face as Tim's got a lovely way with words.

Barbara Ball Trask

I met this Barbara at a gathering that Rose Archer and her husband put on. Barbara Hastings was there, too, and she recommended I interview this Barbara. These community connections sure are starting to thicken. I found chatting with Barbara to be very easy. She has a lovely, no-nonsense way of getting right to the point while still being soft and welcoming. And she's not afraid to be real. I'm not afraid to be real either and I'm learning that that either works or it doesn't for some people. We've managed to create quite a facade, haven't we? And some people seem to be quite comfortable there. Well, not me. And, if I may speak for her, not Barbara. Enjoy the interview below. I'm quite happy to introduce her to you. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am Barbara Ayres Ball Trask. And I would describe myself... hmmm. There's those labels - I'm a wife and a mother, a daughter, a sister. I'm a vital, adventurous, intense person. I'm very alive. Inquisitive. Thoughtful. But intense is usually a pretty common adjective people would use to describe me. 

What matters to you or what motivates you?

Truth and authenticity really matter to me. What motivates me is real connection. I don't do smalltalk very well and I don't tolerate what people called politeness - that superficiality - it just really doesn't land with me. I really have a desire to be seen and to see people - real connection. Yeah, I'm an eternal student. So, I love learning and I'm super inquisitive. Knowing. Oh, that's interesting! And I have a real strong bullshit monitor. When that starts going it's like, Next! I'm gone. And I get to be picky, so I don't have to do those. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

Well, I mean, there's the state of the Union - the politics. For me, I feel a legacy of paternal and male-dominated that is not sustainable for me. I don't believe it's sustainable. The short-term gain, the unwillingness to think long-term, the thinking quarterly profits not doing things 'cause they're the right thing to do. I've lived in socialized countries - I know what that's like. We've gotten so lost from the sense of how we're all connected and that long term matters into these short-term profits and things. I guess that's really what concerns me. 

What is there to do about that? 

Well, I'm definitely a... the quote of Einstein, It's better to light one candle than curse the darkness. I'm definitely living life like I can make a difference. It was interesting when I was choosing to be a parent and looking at this in the world. It was like, Wow, the future is so uncertain. How could I bring a child into this world? And then the other part of me was, Conscious people like me have an obligation to bring children into this world. Because we're bringing children that are gonna be having a voice and be the people that make a difference in our future leaders. Because there are so few really leaders; there's so many sheep. So, I think what makes a difference is these empowered beings - people that feel we can make a difference; that will stand up; that will do something. Because one person does... the hundredth monkey principle. There is a turning point where there is change. In that way, I'm optimistic. I would say I'm hopeful, not optimistic. I can't say I'm optimistic, per se. Although I am, by nature, an optimist. I do believe I'm gonna be happy. Who knows? So, I'm gonna live with that illusion 'cause it makes things feel better. 

What do we mean to each other - person to person? 

I think we are inherently tribal; we're community; we can't exist alone. I'm a verbal processor. I know me by how I'm reflected to other people. It's essential. We go crazy in isolation. We can't do it alone. And that's the illusion - that we're separate. I think that's just crazy. What happens to other people impacts us. And my health is reflected in the health of my community and my circle. I can't raise up without raising the people around me and I'm drawn down by the people around me. We're connected. The comfort, the love, the meaning happens in connection. 

What does it mean to you to be part of a community? 

Sharing. Not isolated. Cared for. Caring for. Being seen. Being known. It also requires a level of vulnerability because you have to be willing to be transparent; to actually ask for things you need. Not in this, I'm fine. Oh, it's fine! How are things? Fine! It's not about that. It's like, No, I'm scared. Or, It's hard. And be willing to not look good. I have a temperament - a personality... in psychology, we talk about your fundamental wounds. There were ways that my needs were met in my childhood where I adapted by not having needs. And if I had needs, I took care of them myself. So, it's called an invulnerable. So, I'm fighting that inherent nature which is that, I'm fine and I can do it all myself. If I have any needs, I take care of them myself. No, that's not true. I do have needs. And I need help. I want help. And it's easier and more fun if I have help. It's healing that lie that I developed around, which was my protection. When you're there as a kid and there isn't another adult to meet your needs it's a very good adaptive mechanism that helped me to survive. But I don't want to survive; I want to thrive. 

What do you think about the polarization within community and do you have thoughts on bringing the ends together? 

People will change their diet more easily than they'll change their religion and most people won't change their diet. So, I have no illusion that we'll bring people together. I think exposure does lead to a little more tolerance. So, being able to be completed isolated - like only being around people like you - makes you think that that's all there is. And I don't think that's healthy. So, inclusivity and exposure is important. But the reality is I hate cigarette smoke. I don't ever want to be around cigarette smokers - it makes me sick. You know? They can smoke, but I don't want them in my airplane; I don't want them at my restaurant; I don't want to breathe their smoke. You have a right to do that, but... that aspect. I think there's a natural polarization that happens. The same way that I don't really want to be in a place that has open carry laws. I don't want to be around a bunch of guns; I don't like that. So, I think we have to be able to tell the truth about what we like. I'm not saying I want to take everyone's gun away... although I do feel strongly that we should limit semi-automatics. There's no justification... 

What are your thoughts on human rights and social injustice and what can we do about it? 

I am grateful to say that I am aware of it; you know, I'm not oblivious. It's been something I've been in dialogue about, having had awareness. Also, a little bit of transparency of the veil of I am privileged; I am white and educated; and I was raised middle or solidly upper-middle class, so I had many privileges. Also I've been clear that not just that, but as an attractive woman, I have also privilege in ways that other women don't have. So, at least I feel that having awareness, it doesn't have as strong a hold as the unconsciousness - Isn't it the way it's supposed to be? - kind of thing. I feel like we're hitting a critical mass 'cause there's much more dialogue about it. That at least there's some shifting. But the idea that there isn't gonna be a gradient is naive. There's gonna be gradient. 

Although the culture I'm most familiar with is Denmark - my mom's Danish and I've spent time there - and they're consistently rated as some of the happiest people. And they have a very strong socialist system. And they pay up to 70% of their income in tax. So there's this high level of taxation, but there's no poverty. There's certain levels of things that everyone has because of that. And in their parenting and the ways they do things, they're much less focused on I and more on We. Subtleties, it's not whether I can do something, it's how the experience... like the game - not Did you win? but Was the game a good game? There's just real subtle things that create this inclusiveness that makes it matter. I'm doing better because my neighbors are all doing better; because they're not on the street, starving. This pleasure or satisfaction gets taken in in being a part of something that's working. And so I think because there's been more - like the internet - exposure, more opening, and children are aware; I think there's an aspect that can change. But like what's happening with Trump, I mean we have really conservative justices going in that are undermining so many of the laws and things that have been done. And people are so naive in not getting that big companies and big corporations are running things just for themselves. That 1% is getting richer and richer and things are really dropping. We're going in the opposite direction here in the States. Which is kinda scary. And I don't know what will wake people up.  

I don't have any answers. I know that I'm trying to be conscious and aware and live as well as possible. And I know that I'm doing the ostrich, but I know personally, I have a news diet. There's a lot of things I don't even want to hear or watch because it just makes me sick and I can't do anything about it and it doesn't help. So, I try to do that more Ghandi-esque, Be the change you want to see in the world. And think that these ripples and things will connect. There's the possibility of having aspects/places be different. I have done service work. I want to continue that. I know I'm working with my daughter - and want to be involved in her school - in empowering... I'm most committed to woman's rights 'cause I'm a woman and I'm raising a daughter. So that aspect of really teaching girls about consent and boys about consent... boys understanding that absence of a No is not a Yes; it's not a Yes 'til it's a Hell yes. Teaching girls that they get to say yes. Not like Oh, maybe because they can't actually say Yes. And I mean that in general not just in sex. Somehow we're not supposed to admit what we want or say what we want or know what we want. Some of those aspects of empowering. In that way, I'm trying to make a change with one person and then I know with her friends and the people that we come in contact with - you know, that aspect of ripple. 

It's a heavy one. I can put my toe in it for a little bit and then it's like concrete boots - it just drags you under. Then you want to go to the cabin in the woods. Then I want to run and hide. So, I don't want to do that. I want to stay engaged. I touch it as much as I can tolerate and then come back up for air. 

Do you have a sense of purpose? 

Gosh, I think I do. I feel I have a very purpose-driven life. It's to live life fully; to be connected; to love fully; to be fully engaged. I joke and say I want to be well-used. I want to die with all original parts, but I want them to be really worn. I have a very strong sense that I'll live a long time. There's so much to do. It's like I said, I'm an eternal student; I love learning and sharing. Some aspect of purpose is to be a person of integrity; to be a good person; to leave the world a better place. I definitely want to leave a legacy that's more than my daughter. And in ways, I know I've already done that in my practice of medicine and then in the school. I've touched a lot of lives and I know that I've made things better. I'm a healer; I've lessened pain; I've helped people to feel better. 

And I've walked through my own recovery and my own pain. And so I have a real commitment to pay forward and have my pain make sense by helping other people deal with theirs. I can sit with people and they can get that they're not alone and it's not so scary. Wow, other people can live in the world and be functioning and have known trauma or pain. 'Cause that's so secret or quiet. I've had different layers of places where I've had pain and I'm real transparent and I'm real honest about it. So I don't hide it. In circles, I went through a whole bunch of stuff around infertility. And that's such a really quiet, hidden shame. I had a bunch of miscarriages and lost a bunch of children. And so people now have been able to talk about that. Very rarely people go, I'm childless by choice. You're never allowed to acknowledge that pain. So, I guess that purpose is to be real authentic and vulnerable. 

What do you want more of in your life?

(Sighs) Always more time (laughs). And I'm working on that. There's sooo many things that interest me. I joke I could fill three or four lives. So when I hear people say they're bored or something, I think, How the fuck could you be bored? I could fill three or four lives. I often say in my parallel life, I would like to design jewelry. Or I would like to learn to paint. I'm gonna try to learn to play the ukulele. They're lifetime things, but I'm not gonna buy into that I'm too old to try. I'm at that delicate balance where I'm not trading time for money so much. I'm not saying that I'm financially secure or I'm done, but I have enough comfort that I can kind of take some space and not just be about, How do I secure my needs? The survival needs. I'm in more comfort. I'm able to make some privileged choices. So, I want time with daughter to actually raise her; to go to the school; to be involved; not to just witness, but to actually be a part of. 

And then time to slow down and actually feel what I feel or experience what I'm... to ask those questions: What do I want right now? I made some decisions in my 20s and I'm just in a trajectory; Do they even fit me anymore? The metaphor I've had in moving trans-state is I'm moving and I want to be careful about what I move with me. I don't want to just install the same life again. I get to think about What's the baggage I'm gonna take with me or what am I gonna leave behind? I haven't gotten clear on how I even want to label myself as my profession anymore. I don't know what label I want to wear. 'Cause it's a big one - what we do in the world. 

And then all of that is about having more joy. 'Cause it's pleasure. To be present to my life is the time aspect, not just doing it and operating... I head down and burrow. My mother was in Denmark during World War II, so she had a programming for scarcity. I mean, understandable. She was in an occupied country; there was rationing. She had that real. But it's not real anymore and I've lovingly and lightly and jokingly reminded her that she doesn't have to squirrel for her winter anymore and there's abundance and that. I've watched her be willing to spend money on herself and do things and that's really been an important thing. But I was very engrained in this incredible European work ethic and owned my own businesses and did things. So, when you do that... I worked seven days a week. There was always stuff that had to be done. Yet, I can say I've probably at least eaten two or three meals a day with my family - we have family meals. That's an incredible privilege. So, even when I worked, I would go from work to home for lunch and then to another job. Those are things that make it valuable. I always made time to play every day, not just work. Those are things that matter. We have a ritual where we talk about our highs and lows; what were the good things that happened today and were there any challenges? I'm wanting to cultivate in my daughter and in our family this feeling and environment of gratitude. And that, for me, is about joy. We broke the word down to in joy and it means being present. We have to actually feel it to enjoy it. Little things like slowing down and if I'm putting on lotion, actually notice the texture of my skin. Like, feel it. To be present to the pleasure in my life. And so all of that is about slowing down. Feeling like I have enough time will let me slow down into it. Not like, Ahh, I have so much I gotta get done! And that urgency. So, that's the opposite of answering that question around time; it's that relaxing out of the urgency. And I still have it because there's so many amazing things and places I want to go and things I want to do. I've already been to 52 different countries and my goal was to stay up with my age, so I've got some stuff to do. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there? 

Purpose, back on that one with purpose. It's a great question and most people don't ask it or acknowledge it or it's like a hidden or something. It's not goals - 'cause it's like we get really goal-oriented. You know that quote, To have lived well, laughed long, left the world a better place - there's things like that to make a life meaningful. It's more about just really being fully present. Whatever it is. And that means being willing to feel the pain and the sadness and the hopelessness that's there so that I can be fully present to the joy. I don't want to miss it. I just want to be present. 

Would you like to ask me anything?

How much have you let yourself be moved by this and change who you are? Or has it just solidified who you are? Do you find yourself being swayed or more intensified? 

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That's a nice question. I guess that's a both/and for an answer. More intensified, certainly, but within this and within my reason for doing this project is essentially to become swayed. I'm looking for hope and I'm finding it in these interviews. I guess I'm not totally convinced - I'm simultaneously two beings having two experiences, I think. It's hard for me to believe that everything has gone to shit as hard as it seems to have. And that's real. But it's also true. But then there's so much joy that we're experiencing and there are so many good things that don't make the headlines. The only answer anybody ever has for that is, "Well, it doesn't sell." But, that's not true; it's just a thing that we keep perpetuating. So, I'm trying to find the good - knowing that it exists - and then put it out there. I'm not getting the readership or the listeners that NPR or Fox News, certainly, but at least I can go to sleep at night knowing that I've done my part. I need to find these connections and I need to make them for myself because they're not so easy to happen upon. You have to be quite intentional about being serious about life. Otherwise, you get caught up in the things that don't really matter. Both/and - more intensified and I'm still malleable. Right? I can still change my mind.

I met this Barbara at a gathering that Rose Archer and her husband put on. Barbara Hastings was there, too, and she recommended I interview this Barbara. These community connections sure are starting to thicken. I found chatting with Barbara to be very easy.

Daniel Murphy

Liz Goodrich recommended me to Dan. She asked if it was okay to send some Redmond folks my way. It sure is. Especially if they are of Dan's caliber. Dan and I share a deep sense of curiosity and I enjoyed learning about how Dan's has shaped his experiences. He exuded kindness and humility and openly admitted to his accumulation of information and knowledge and experiences as having helped him change his mind on some pretty significant social issues. I like that. I'm pretty sure we could all (me, too) use some mind-changing. And the time is now. You can put off some other things tomorrow, but let's get right down to it today. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, I would say that much as I strive to have a broader point of view that it's not entirely possible to get away from being a white male that was raised in a middle class family, so I definitely have that heritage. My dad was a dentist. And I did not really understand the concept of people that had needs until I went away to college. And until I started getting out into the world a little bit more. I knew intellectually that there were people out there that were poor. When I was growing up, people were always talking about the poor, starving people in China, so I knew it was there; I just had never witnessed it. I think that when I talk about who I am, you can't entirely extract that background. It's there to be aware of. Things changed when I went to college - a small Jesuit college in Denver, called Regis College - and they particularly changed when I went into medicine. I was very conservative when I arrived at medical school - voted for Reagan and saw his inaugural parade. But when I was in medical school and working like you do in medical school with underprivileged populations and then again in internship in Sacramento with UC Davis, you work with people that are underprivileged every day. And their needs and their problems are right up front. So, a lot of the religious feelings and right-wing philosophical feelings that sort of governed me at that time.... I either had to kind of deny what I was seeing with my own eyes and hearing with my own ears or change. 

So, at this point in life, I'm somebody that would like to see the world be a place where people don't have to worry about healthcare; they don't have to worry about basic needs. I don't need everybody in the world to have the exact same amount of money, but I would like to see a world in which nobody is starving or without shelter. And I think that's a doable project. So, at this stage of my life, even given where I came from, women's rights - because we can't make the world that I'm talking about without full participation from everybody that lives in the world, not just half of the population (the male half) - women's rights are incredibly important to me. Also influenced by the fact that I have a daughter that is one of the best parts of my life, as are my three sons. Let's see if I can bring this back down. I'm an evidence-based person that feels as though the problems that face the environment and face the human race are solvable. I'll leave it there. I feel like if we listen to each other and look carefully for evidence-based solutions that we can get it done. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

In a broad sense, curiosity motivates me. I have always been curious about things. I think, in the end, curiosity is what saved me from being locked into any one political philosophy in that if somebody wrote something well or presented a study that was well done, it always caught my eye. And I find it hard to reject well-said, evidence-based points of view. So, curiosity - trying to figure out what the heck is going on in this world that we live in. Why is it so hard to put these things together? How is it that so many people who live in the countryside because they love nature are the same people that vote for policies that are absolutely destructive of the very environment that they live in? And trying to figure out how to make things better for all the species on the planet (laughs). I know that sounds awfully far off in the tree hugger category, but I feel like humans are part of a network. I do not feel like we are the be all and the end all of creation - that everything pointed towards the development of humans. I think we're one part of the whole web and I feel like if we focus on that a little bit more that not only would humans do better, but also the environment that we live in. So, curiosity... that's been really helpful to me. I just had a hard time keeping my hands off of things that came along and seemed really interesting to me. 

Back in the early '70s, reading about global warming and thinking, Wow, that doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't seem like man could alter the climate on such a large scale. But the evidence was that we at least needed to look at it. So, that's coming up on 50 years of information on that. And it changed my mind. From somebody who was politically very right-wing and really didn't feel like there was that much damage you could do to the environment to somebody who.... actually, my mom gave me Rachel Carson's [Silent Spring]... her book about the potential effect of mankind on the ocean. I was in grade school when I read that and, because of the curiosity part, that got through to me. 

So who I am - I'm very interested in people; I'm very interested in stories. I was raised in a fairly typical homophobic way when I was growing up - typical for that age, for that time in history. My dad was homophobic. And in college, I started to meet people who were gay and I liked 'em. And I had to make the decision to either find out where they're coming from and what's this all about or step back and harden myself and insist that gay people had something wrong with them. Later on in life, I had sort of a sub-specialty in AIDS and treating people with HIV. And that was because the infectious disease guy in the town that I was working in at that time, for religious reasons was very anti-gay and he would tell gay, HIV-positive males that he didn't like working with gay men. And so the residency program that I was teaching in at that time took over treatment of HIV-positive people. And through that, I got really used to being hugged by men that were being affectionate and being flirted with from time to time. Again, it was curiosity. Curiosity about this new disease. Curiosity about how this is affecting people that have a disease that we don't have an answer for yet. What is this lifestyle about? And meeting partners who, to me, seemed to have more going in their relationship than many heterosexual couples did. So, the curiosity thing has really powered me through. So, I'm a curious person. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

I have a heavy heart when people are so hardened in their points of view - left and right - that they have stopped listening. I feel really discouraged when I see people, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum, shutting the door on any new knowledge. It makes me sad. On the flip side, I get really emotional when I hear a success story, when I hear that somebody has changed their position in life because they opened their heart and mind to a new point of view in life. 

What do we mean to each other on an individual basis? 

I'm no longer religious. I don't have religious faith. I was a very devout Catholic and I was, at one point, signed up to join a seminary - a Franciscan seminary. One of the things that I think will never be out of my consciousness is a Catholic concept of the body of Christ even though I don't think that Christ is God or divine. I think that the notion of the body of Christ that the Catholic church had - which is that we are all linked; we are all in this together; and that when you see somebody on the street that is not doing well, that that person is part of you and you are part of them - is an incredibly valuable concept whether you believe in an interventional god or not. I don't intend to let go of that perspective. So on a practical scale, I'm pretty introverted and I don't go out... when you say, What do we mean to each other? - I don't go out actively looking to form a lot of new relationships because each one's a commitment and sometimes I feel like I have plenty of commitments as it is, but I feel that politically, I can try by the way I vote and the way I talk to friends and family to incorporate that body of Christ thing. That the nations in Africa are not shit holes; they are places that have opportunities that have not yet been explored and I think that I would like to see that change. And I would like to see that everyone, not just in the United States, but that kids had access to excellent education so that we can all move forward together - at least have the opportunity to move forward together. We don't have that. 

So, what we mean to each other is I think we are related - whether or not we're willing to acknowledge that. I think it's kind of the opposite of the Ayn Rand thing where we're each in it by ourselves and may the strongest, smartest person rise to the top and who cares about the rest - that's the opposite of what I feel. So what we are to each other - each and every person, you and me and every patient that I had... 

I was a big Obama supporter and I had a patient that absolutely - he was about 65ish - hated Obama, just absolutely would get red in the face when he'd talk about Obama. And he and I became friends over time. Neither of us convinced each other to change our political point of view, but we became friends over time. Because he had something to offer me and I to him in terms of looking at the world that we live in and talking about, Well, how can we change things in a way that would be mutually acceptable to each other? I treasure that when people from different points of view acknowledge that what we are to each other is a teaching opportunity - an opportunity to recognize that we really are all in this together. 

If you believe in quantum physics, that's literally true. You and I are interacting - our gravity, our electrons are interacting with each other. We're literally linked to each other from a physics point of view. But it would be nice if people also acknowledged that from a point of view of our actions have results on other people. That everything that we do spreads out and comes back. I would like people to recognize that what we are to each other is linked. We cannot separate ourselves from each other, much as we would like to at times. 

What does being part of community mean to you? 

I think the word community means communion. You know, we are together. Which goes along with what I was just talking about. For me, community is recognition that we're together and then working to make things better, not just for ourselves, but for all of us. My own observation about myself is that as I became more engaged in the lives of people that were very foreign to me - I mentioned my white, middle-class, male background - as I began to listen to other people's stories, my life got better. My life got better. So, community is people working with each other and listening to each other and, in the process, doing well together. 

Do you have thoughts on why we can't seem to focus on what is at the core of the many different social injustices and what is your role in this realm - fighting against or standing up for? Why can't we sort this out?

I'm sure people have tried to write books to address that kind of a question. One of the things that I've seen that's gotten in the way of people coming to a more common understanding of this is the fact that people on the left have tended to climb up on a moral high horse. I hear this over and over again, including from the patient that hated Obama. One of things that he hated most about Obama is Obama's presumption that he knew what was best for the world - that Obama knew what was best for us human beings. And so, I feel like often - and no disrespect to you - but often in even using the term social injustice... when you say injustice that means justice isn't being done. So, when you talk to somebody on the Right and say, How can you put up with social injustice?, it's implying that they know what justice is and would prefer to do otherwise. So, right away the conversation begins to tank when that word injustice starts to be used. I feel that I am almost radically evidence-based and then where I can't go any further with the evidence, I can fall back on an appeal. I'll explain that. 

If you were able to show me that fewer people were hungry, fewer people lived in absolute need, people were happier by using a social system that was unfair - meaning that women were restricted to particular types of jobs and then men were restricted to particular types of job - if you could show me that that actually resulted in an improvement in the common good, then I would have trouble opposing that system. First of all, I don't believe that's true. I don't believe that you can show that. In fact, I think the evidence is starkly to the contrary. But if you could show that to me, then I would have to back off. And I would have to say - that same curiosity that I was talking about - We need to look at this. We need to find out if the data is right. So, what I prefer is talking about women's rights from the point of view, for example, not of social injustice, but what happens when women are educated and given economic opportunity? Well, what happens is economies thrive, the risk of war goes down, the birthrate goes down on a planet that can't even support its current human population. This is not conjecture; this is just hard economic data. Hard data regarding what happens with birthrates. Educate women, let them get into the workforce - health goes up, the birthrate goes down, the economy picks up. And so, I'm for it. Because I would like to see a world, like you and I have been talking about, in which people had more of an opportunity to live this brief span of life that we have in a way that felt good, felt meaningful, felt fulfilling on some level to the people that are here on planet Earth without doing a whole lot of damage to all the other animals and plants and bacteria (laughs) that live here. 

I would like to see us not talk very much about social injustice; I would like to see us talk about what works and what doesn't work. Does it work to put African-Americans into a separate economic class and to give them schools that are shit? No, it doesn't work! Find me even a hardcore right-winger that thinks that that particular approach worked for the African-Americans or for anybody else. For the levels of crime that happen in poverty-stricken - whether it's African-American or not - areas of cities. It means that the rest of us who don't commit crimes end up shelling out a lot of tax dollars, putting people at record numbers - I don't think there's another industrialized nation that has as many people per capita in jail as we do. So, I would like to see us approach things from a point of view of What works to make things better for us humans? Better would mean we'd have to have that conversation that you're talking about. What would be better? Shelter? Medical care? What would you think of as better? If I get to the end of the evidence and I can't carry it any farther because the research hasn't been done, what I would like to see is for people to simply have the opportunity to put themselves in another person's shoes and at least envision what is going on from that person's point of view. 

I remember how strange it was for me the first time that I heard the notion of being pulled over because of driving while black. And I thought, Wow, that's not right. That's not good. How would I like it if I got pulled over because I was white? Or how would I like it if I was given a salary offer that was significantly lower because I had two X chromosomes instead of one X chromosome? And so, if I don't have the evidence to prove that this would be a better system, I can at least say to people, Well, what if you were in this situation? What if you cared for your kids as much as you do care for your kids but you lived in a neighborhood where the only school available to you was a school that had an incredibly low graduation rate and almost nobody got to go to college after they went there? And that there were shootings on that campus regularly and lots of drug addiction that wasn't being dealt with? How would you like your kids to go there? So, that's not a social justice thing. That's not saying, Do you feel good about creating conditions like that? That's more like, If we were creating a nation, if we were developing a nation, would you like to set up a nation where regardless of your skin color and regardless of your ethnic background, you didn't have to worry about where your kids were gonna be educated? Would that be appealing to you? And if it is, let's get started! 

Have you every heard of the philosophical notion called the veil of ignorance? 

Do you have a sense of purpose? 

Yes, but not in the sense of eternal purpose. I don't feel like I'm on the planet to accomplish something. You know, when I was a devout Catholic, I believed in the notion of a calling - that God would call me to do a certain thing in life, whatever that might have been. This may not sound very exciting to you, but what I realized over time is I don't need some absolute set of values that I strive for to be my purpose in life. What I've found is - and this sounds completely selfish - I feel better when I get to interact with other human beings and see that my interaction with other human beings makes them feel better. I feel better! 

I do have purposes. Cindy was diagnosed with early onset dementia four years ago and one of my purposes in life is to live up to the promise that we made 42 years ago to each other to stay with each other in sickness and in health. So I have a purpose. I purposely avoid some of my riskier activities. I'm a much more cautious mountain biker than I used to be because I don't want to be hurt; I don't want to leave her alone. I want to take care of her. I want to stick with that promise that I made. So, I have that as a purpose. I have four kids. And, to the extent that I can, I'd like to see them do well, which is a tricky business that often doesn't have to do with writing a check; it has to do with waiting 'til the right moment and sometimes not writing checks because you know it would cause a problem. So, I have a purpose. I want my friends and my family to do well. I feel better when I feel like I am helping the people that are close to me and not so close to me, as well as this incredible, beautiful world that we live in. If that world can do better because of my actions, it makes me feel better. And that's enough of a purpose for me. I don't need to know that there's a reward waiting for me someplace. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

(Laughs) That's a wonderful question. Physically, I don't have anything that I want more of. I mean, everybody has their toy list. I think the Tesla Model S is a marvelous car, but I'm happy without one. If I won the lottery, I'd go buy one. I don't want more money. I wouldn't mind if life was longer 'cause I find the world a really fun place to inhabit. If life were longer and Cindy's cognition wasn't declining, I would think that that would be great. 

In terms of things that would really excite me - and I don't know if this fits in your category of what do I want more of - one oddball thing is I would really love it if we could make contact with or discover life off of this planet because it would have tremendous implications in terms of who we are and whether or not we need to get our act together. Especially if we encountered intelligent life on other planets. Because it would put us in the proper perspective. Right now, we human beings, 99.9% of us just can't get it out of our heads that we're the most important thing that ever came along. Whether it's movies or poetry or philosophy, there's a million books about how we're different than the animals and very few written about how we are animals. We're not different from the animals; we're just part of a very broad spectrum of that. And I think that we suddenly snap back or at least be moved towards a much clearer picture of who we are if we could have contact with life off of this planet. 

Since I hope that happens while I'm still alive - there's a good chance of it with the number of planets that we're discovering and the technology that's improving by leaps and bounds, really, in terms of being able to look for signs of life on exoplanets. Meanwhile, I would really love to see some sort of healing take place. What I would want more of is mutual understanding between people and a sense of common cause. I know there's an organization called Common Cause and maybe that phrase is hackneyed, but I would want more of living in a place where people felt like we have common cause and let's get down to the business of working on that. Otherwise, I feel like my needs are... 

When Cindy was diagnosed, we had a chance to talk; neither of us feel robbed. If that happened to you, you would have the right to feel robbed at your age. But, at 66, having had lots of adventures in life and having had a wonderful relationship with a dream partner for actually 47 years since we were together for five years before we got married. Coming up on a half a century of being with each other, I can't think of anything I want more of. I do not feel robbed. Yeah, it would be nice if this hadn't happened to Cindy. I just came back from the urologist today who said, Your PSA has doubled in the last year and we're gonna need to do another prostrate biopsy. Well, I can deal with that. Because even if I go through all that and find out that something's really wrong, I won't really be able to rage at the world. I've really had a good time being here. I really have.

Do you have anything else you want to put out there?

I would really like to see people on the Left and the Right look really carefully at where they are coming from when they talk to each other. I feel that on the left that people over and over are climbing onto this moral high horse and nobody likes to hear somebody coming at them from the point of view of I have the superior... I am an ethical human being and you are not. We're never gonna get anywhere with that. And on the other side, people who have struggled with the notion that maybe humans are causing climate change, that they say, Maybe I should back up. Maybe I should put a little more evidence-based... maybe I should broaden my sources of information when on four continents, at this moment, there are an extraordinary number of wildfires going on to an extent not yet seen before. It's time for both the Left and the Right to say, Something that we've done isn't working right. Let's sit down and get started on this. It'll be a lot of fun. It'll be really interesting doing this together. And it will be.  

So, what I would like is for people - both sides - to get off of their moralistic points of view and just get down to thinking about, Is this the way things to be? No. Then, what can we do about it? 

And one more thing that I would like to see, I would like to see people regain some confidence in science. I feel like we're living in an anti-science age. And scientists brought some of that upon themselves. I'm not absolving scientists of all guilt in that matter, especially in my own career of medicine. I feel like doctors are often extraordinarily resistant to good evidence. When people are skeptical of scientists, I get it, and yet, when you want to drive across a bridge... you don't look at your astrological calendar and you don't do aroma therapy, you trust engineers to build the frickin' thing right. That's science. We didn't get to the moon by prayer; we got to the moon by incredibly precise calculations and going through things a thousand times. And when medicine is done well, it's because there are double-blinded controlled studies, not because people are giving expert opinions, which is still way too popular in medicine - doing medicine by expert opinion versus evidence-based medicine. So, I would like to see a comeback of science in a form that people could trust even knowing that sometimes science has done things that have led to people distrusting science as a healthful branch of human knowledge.

Is there anything that you would like to ask me?

Yeah. How has it changed you listening to all these people that you're interviewing? What have you noticed about yourself?

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That's an in-progress thing, you know? That will continue. I just had the chance to answer this live the other night. There was an event - The Night Light Show - and the host of the show, Shanan Kelley, asked me. In some ways, these engagements are making me more accountable and, in some ways, making me a little bit harder on myself. Because I have this message that I'm preaching - people getting along and bridging these gaps - and I still have all my own bullshit. And it seems like it's becoming quite a bit more highlighted. The things that I don't do well or the things that I continue to fail at are very present - they'e on the forefront of my mind. 

That's pretty amazing. I guess right at the moment, I was thinking about the fact that as a young doctor that encountering people is what made me change. It caused me distress. It showed me my own biases. It showed me my own areas of hardness. I don't know if we're talking about exactly the same thing, but it was being with other humans that really made me need to back up and think about who I was and what I was about. 

Yeah. What's happening to me through this project is exactly what I hope happens to everybody who encounters it. 

Liz Goodrich recommended me to Dan. She asked if it was okay to send some Redmond folks my way. It sure is. Especially if they are of Dan's caliber. Dan and I share a deep sense of curiosity and I enjoyed learning about how Dan's has shaped his experiences.

Jamie Foubister

David Lutz introduced me to Jamie. We had only conversed through email prior to our meeting for this interview, so I was surprised by his accent when he met me at the door. Because he’s such a joy to listen to, I do highly recommend listening to this interview, but Jamie's got a lot more going on than his accent. I particularly enjoy that he speaks his mind and has a solid set of values including caring about being a good man. It's not every day I meet a man who openly admits to wanting to be a good one. I share that desire. When the time comes for someone to remember me, I hope that is one of things that comes to mind. I love it so much when I meet a stranger who is ready to engage in real, vulnerable talk right away. Thanks for that, Jamie. We sat on some cushions on the floor in an empty yoga studio and I spent our time together thoroughly embarrassed by my poor posture…

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I guess these days I describe myself as a father. I'm a seeker. I've always been interested in different cultures, different ways of being. I've always wanted to advance myself. I'm someone who's very passionate about the subjects I'm very passionate about. I'm very interested in getting yoga out there, for a start, for men. I'm really passionate about that; I just don't think there's enough in this country, specifically for men. I'm very much into alternative lifestyles. As a father, I want my children to see the world from different views, not just a cookie-cutter existence. Yeah, I'm just interested in everything. I'm passionate above all things. 

What matters to you? And what motivates you?

Continued growth matters to me. Being a good dad, being a good husband, and being a good man. And figuring out what it means to be a good man in this culture. Things are so different. 200 years ago, 300 years ago, going back - men's roles were obviously very different. And now I think we're trying to find who we are in this day and age. 

I'm self-motivated. I'm really driven. In terms of Ayurveda, which is yoga's sister science, I'm very pitta - pitta's are very passionate, very driven people - to the point where, I wouldn't say I'm obsessive, but I'm definitely... I get something stuck in my craw and I have to do it. I've always been that way. Whether it was martial arts - I have a black belt in karate - I did Muay Thai, I've studied it my whole life. I wanted to the best at something. My yoga is good because it helps me let go of being the best. Yeah. Self-motivated, self-driven. I see other people who are doing what I want to do and I aspire to be on the same level as them. Not be them, because I'm unique, but I just want to be the best me I can be. And that motivates me - gets me out of bed every morning. That and really good coffee. 

What does it mean to you to be a good man? 

To be honorable. To be a good friend to my friends. To be a good husband and a good provider - although my wife's a physical therapist, so she makes very good coin. To be honest, I want to present to people who I truly am instead of a facade. I always think about Eleanor Rigby - the Beatles' song - wearing a [face] that she keeps in a jar by the door. And I think so many people are not true. Especially with internet culture these days - you know, this is Facebook or Instagram - people look amazing and then you see them and that's not who they really are; they're not being true to themselves. And I think we need to be true to ourselves. Especially as men; just be who you are. Let that shine through instead of pretending. That's a man to me; just someone who's a friend, who's loyal, who's honest, and is who they are and is just there for people. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

I see a slipping of the standards with the way people are these days. I see so many people walking down the street - and I'm involved in the health care industry, like I said, I'm an MRI technologist. I scan people all the time and I see people who are just not as healthy as they could be. Whether that's from environmental degradation or it's lifestyle choices, people are just destroying their bodies. People aren't moving enough. People are becoming obese and sick through that. And I'm not judging people. In Ayurveda they talk about people being kapha, which is one of the doshas, and kapha people tend to be more rubenesque - more curvy - and you can be very healthy like that. I just see people and I see the effects of that - of poor lifestyle decisions.

And I worry about the state of the planet. I know that's a very clichéd answer, but I'm really worried about the state of the planet. I'm worried about how things are gonna be for my children and my children's children. Things are starting to break down, you can see it. Food supplies are getting contaminated... I worry about that. You can go to a big box store and you spend 25 dollars - 50 dollars - on shit food and none of it's real and people are feeding it to their families. Again, I'm not judging people. If that's all you can afford and you're trying to do your best. Everyone's trying to do the best for their family. But there's got to be better choices. There's got to be better support systems in place for people so they can eat 'cause it all starts with diet. Kids are not getting good nutrition because people are in a rush. We gotta slow stuff down, man. We really do. Or we'll spin off the planet (laughs). 

What do we mean to each other on an individual basis? 

I feel, especially these days, depends where you live - in major cities, there's a big disconnect. Bend's a pretty decent size what we'd call in England a town - I wouldn't call this a city, I know it is in American terms - but in Bend I find people are really friendly. People give you a nod. You'll be in the grocery store, people will smile at you. There's a lot more interpersonal interactions. When I see people on the street, they're another human being, you know? I see them on that level. I see them as being a possible somebody I could become friends with or reach out to at some point. Not everybody wants to be friends these days, but I think in general people are just disconnected. And they're just moving through their lives in a bubble. But thats other people. Me, I meet 15, 20, 30 people a day as patients, so everybody I try to connect with on some kind of level. And I'm talking like Tea Party members and people who have completely opposing views on politics and lifestyle than I do and I always find a way to connect to them. That's how you gain people's trust and that's how I can do my job - my Joe job - effectively is gaining someone's trust so I can stick 'em in a tube with loud noises and get good images that get them on the road to being better, you know? That's me. 

What does it mean to you to be part of a community?

For years I always saw myself as a loner. I always was the English guy - although my father who is Scottish 100% would really take offense if I called myself English - but I always saw myself as a loner on the outside. And I always have been a loner. I've always been interested in stuff that's maybe a little bit - because of its esoteric nature - kind of puts me a little bit on the outside. But even in being slightly an outsider, you find community of other outsiders. And, to me, it's always having somebody to converse with. Someone who's on a level where I can talk to them about subjects we're interested in. And just having someone you can reach out for. 

It's really comforting not feeling like you're just on your own. I've moved so many times around this country, to have roots and have a community is wonderful. It's a support network. It harkens back to the old days when tribal structures were in tact and you had people and everybody relied on everybody else. Community is an echo to that tribal structure that all humans - no matter race, creed, religion, whatever - had in the past. Before we just got mechanized and industrialized. 

This question is about social injustice and greed. You were talking about the quality of food and some of the options that are available to us and I guess I would consider an element of that to be social injustice, as well. That's one little social injustice. There's all the other big issues; there's racism, gender inequality, homophobia, etc. What's your role in working towards equity and humanity and social justice? 

My role is speaking out about it. I think the best way to not let stuff go unchecked is to speak out when you hear it. Like I said, I deal with a lot of people from different backgrounds. If people start talking about things that I find distasteful, I tell them it's not okay. I grew up in a very multi-cultural society and, quite frankly, I don't care what your religion is. I've read most of the holy books - religion's always been fascinating to me - so I don't judge people on their tribal identity. I don't care how people fuck. I've had male friends who find homosexuality abhorrent, well I told them real quick I didn't like that and I don't want to hear that shit and if they don't like it, then I detach from them. I lived in San Francisco. I was involved in Wicca for a long time. A lot of my brothers were gay - I hugged them; they gave me kisses on the cheek; told me I was pretty sometimes - very flattering when I was young. I don't care! If you love another man or if you're a woman who loves another woman, love is love. I teach my children that all the time. And the color of someone's skin... that stuff doesn't matter. And I think we need to be really outspoken about that. If we could encourage people to stop looking at people as the enemy, instead  looking at people as like these guys are a resource, maybe we can come together and raise ourselves up, I think it would be a lot better world. And we need to help educate those people as well. You were talking about food earlier on, it's so true; there's places in America where you can’t get good quality food. There was a guy in South-Central L.A. who's a gardener, who's trying to encourage people to plant on vacant plots and plant along the sidewalks and they started to crack down on it, stopping him from doing it. Why are they stopping him from growing food? Why is it these kids are going to bed fucking hungry when they could be growing food with a little encouragement from outside the community? They don't want people to be empowered! Sorry (laughs) but it pisses me off. 

Would you say you have a sense of purpose? 

Yeah. Yeah, I do. I want to evolve myself so I can lead other people. It's like Plato's Cave, where everybody's looking at the shadow's dancing on the wall. All it takes is one person to look and, Oh shit, the entrance is here - we're looking the wrong way. And I think we need, as individuals, just to awaken ourselves a little bit more, become more conscious, to be better examples in the community and just in our lives so people can look to us as somebody to follow - as an example. It's like everything else; you have to humble about things because there's always people who influence you who are way above you... like the Dalai Lama, right? The guy's like a wise, old Yoda. I've seen him speak and everybody was craning forward, everybody was so entranced by him because of his magic about him. My purpose is to get people healthier, get people thinking about their lives, be more conscious and to kind of peek their head out the window and look around and see what's going on and not to be so narrow-minded. 

Get out of that I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm a Christian, I'm a whatever and start looking to the underlying theme of being a good person. The Golden Rule. Help other people. Like the Buddha said, Not everybody's ready for the message. Jesus.... originally... was only preaching to fellow Jews with his message. But stuff ripples out. My purpose is to help people step up and to evolve. For example, I'm teaching yoga - maybe I'm gonna give somebody a Pranayama technique so that if they're getting stressed out, they can calm themselves down. If I teach one person that and they can teach somebody else that, we can calm ourselves down. Especially men, where we're so hair-trigger these days that bad things happen. If I can get somebody to have more freedom of movement in their body because they sit in a chair all day and to feel what it's like to be a child again - have that child-like movement back - then that's it. That's them evolving one step. From there, Well I can do this now, so I can do other things in my life. Empowering people... this is a long-winded answer, I'm sorry... to empower people in their life to waken and to step up and evolve... You know there's the line in the book Dune, The sleeper has awakened. Well, we're all asleep. If we could just get ourselves to just pull the covers back and look at the reality behind the veil and just evolve as people, we could bring everybody else with us. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Hours in the day. There's not enough time for everything. I have so many interests. I love to read. I work four days a week, which is why I'm only teaching one yoga class right now - that's gonna change soon. I drive to Prineville. I drive to Madras. So I'm commuting, so I try to maximize my time in the car listening to podcasts and books on tape and whatnot. When I'm at work, I'll do my yoga practice on my lunch break. I get home and then I'm a father. I slip into my father role and a husband role. And then at the end of the day, there's so many things I'm really interested in and I want to learn more about - I want to get more in-depth. If there was 28 hours in the day, I'd probably use them all. 

Do you have anything you'd like to put out there? 

I'm really passionate, again - to reiterate - about teaching men's yoga. A lot of men are really turned off by going to a yoga class. And there's these women here who are incredibly flexible and incredibly graceful. And sometimes, especially because of our lifestyles, we're clunky. We've been sitting in chairs, we've played sports in school, or we've had a car accident - our backs are jacked up - and men just feel really uncomfortable in the classes. That's why I've tried to set aside a space for men to come and have a laugh and do yoga. If you ask any of the guys that come to my classes, it's very supportive; it's funny. I'll play punk in my classes. I'll play hip-hop. I'll play Public Enemy. I'll play Krishna Core music like Shelter. I'll play Cro-Mags. I'll play all these NYC hardcore bands and California hardcore bands - Black Flag and whatnot. Come, hang out, see what you can do. And I see people coming week after week and they're making progress. And while we're working on the physical, we're also working on the mental. I want more men to do it. 

Do you have anything you'd like to ask me?

What made you want to do this? When you started this project, what was the motivation?

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This is my second go at it, really. A number of years ago, in 2008, I had been spending some time working for a nonprofit, developing some habits - interviewing people and taking portraits for their cause - and it didn't work out in the end for that particular thing, but when it ended I had all this creative energy, but I didn't have a platform anymore. And in the state of wondering what to do next, this other idea came to me and it was to go out and introduce myself to a stranger every day and photograph them. I wanted to do that every day for a year. This was in 2008 and there wasn't a lot of these projects going on. A good friend of mine encouraged me to go out that day. I hadn't prepared. I didn't have a website. I didn't have business cards. I didn't have anything. But I did. I went out that one day and that project became I Heart Strangers and I ended up doing it for 625 days in a row. A number of things happened throughout that - lots of evolution, and lots of thoughts - and I ended up quitting, kind of with my tail between my legs. I felt like I had become pretty defeated by it. And so, in 2010 this long pause began. And I didn't know how long it would become, but I felt really sad that I didn't do the project anymore and I also couldn't come up with an idea that wasn't that project again. To the point where, years later, I even tried to begin that project again. And it just didn't resonate with me - it didn't feel right. 

A number of things happened and all these different life events and I find myself moving out to Bend and, two weeks after coming out here, I was walking in the woods - it was in the winter of 2016 - with my dog and in the middle of snowy trail, the idea for this project hit me. I have all kinds of thoughts on what ideas are and where they come from. I don't know. I was reading this book called Big Magic around that time and Elizabeth Gilbert has really pretty language for what they are, but basically maybe an idea is a living organism and if it lands on you and you don't use it, it just goes on to someone else. And this idea landed on me and I used it. So, this is interview 95 for this project - a year and a half later. 

It comes from a sense of curiosity. It also comes from a sense... I just don't feel like we're doing life right. We as the whole and the systems and the things we value aren't the things that I value. And I guess that's worth exploring for me. If I have this thing that doesn't really line up with what most people are engaged with, I want to explore that. And then, it happens to be a good thing, so I want to share it. I think if I had some darker interests that weren't beneficial, I probably wouldn't have started the project. I'd like to think that's true. I also think we owe each other. I think we owe each other respect and we owe each other dignity and we owe each other humanity. And this is, for sure, speaking to me, too. I owe everyone more patience and I owe everyone more compassion and more empathy. And this is also a way for me to practice that and to try to hold myself accountable. So, I guess somewhere in all that is maybe the answer to your question. 

David Lutz introduced me to Jamie. We had only conversed through email prior to our meeting for this interview, so I was surprised by his accent when he met me at the door. Because he's such a joy to listen to, I do highly recommend listening to this interview, but Jamie's got a lot more going on than his accent.

Andrew Smith

My partner and I had a yard sale some months ago and we advertised free coffee to lure people in. It worked and ended up bringing Andrew by. We chatted for just a minute and I passed him my card on his way out. Then a couple of months went by and, seemingly out of the blue, I got a text from him, asking if I wanted to meet for coffee. And, just like that, we became friends. I don't meet many people like Andrew. He comes across as happy-go-lucky and optimistic, but with sincerity. Nobody would ever refer to me as happy-go-lucky and optimistic probably isn't the word that comes to mind when most think of me, although it might actually be a fair descriptor. Anyway, I found Andrew's take on things to be refreshing and thought he might have something to contribute here. Be sure to keep an eye out for him. He will surely brighten your day. 

As an aside and simply because I think it is very cool, since recording this interview Andrew has migrated to Alaska for the winter to train dogs for the Iditarod.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am Andrew Edward Smith. I describe myself as a giant ball of fun, introspective thoughts, and rugged sensibilities. 

What matters to you? What motivates me? 

It seems like relationships matter to me. And what motivates me in life is quite a few things, but I think seeing people at their best or to try to encourage them along the way - that motivates me. And also just doing pretty awesome things that you can dream up. You get this amazing gift to use your dreams to push you through some amazing experiences. So, just seeing that journey come together. Those are two different things, but I kinda mash 'em together, too. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart? 

Oh, I was just talking about this today at work on the drive back. It's not so much politics - don't upset me - everyone has a different opinion. It's the way people treat each other and hurt each other emotionally or physically or just the darkness that comes out of human spirit - this other side that people let in and let manipulate them. 'Cause I think they're meant to be really wonderful people. That gives me a heavy heart. I don't know. It's not meant to be that way. I'm very hopeful and optimistic, but it's not supposed to be that way.

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

I feel like we are here... your neighbors and the people around you, they help fill in the gaps that you haven't quite got there. For example, I live in this nice apartment and the folks that rent it out to me are a beautiful married couple that have lived a long life and understand love and understand... You know, what that looks like to me is, Wow, I get to learn from them. So, that relationship/friendship... I'm the renter but I've become their friend - dear friend - and I'm very thankful to learn from them what a healthy marriage can look like and what a healthy love looks like. So, I think having your neighbors or your friends - people you meet - there's an opportunity to learn something. 

What does it to mean to you to be a part of a community? 

Yeah. It means everything. You have to have community. It's where memories are made. It's where deep belly laughs happen. It's hard to be whimsical by yourself. You know, you want to do that with people. So, it's everything. For sure. But, I feel like it's not for everyone. Something happens to people - they get hurt and they don't trust people and their hearts are messed up - and they don't believe or have hope for community. And they get into this other community that has the same beliefs and, therefore, they kind of feed off each other - misery loves company - and may end up at the same spot every week at this funky bar and talk about all their hurts. Or maybe not. I don't know. That's kind of what I've noticed. But, yeah, community's everything. I like to think I've got some great community that I'm cultivating now and want to continue to cultivate. And I'm being a bit more selective and I want people that are gonna make me better around me. But, you know, not like exclusive... 

If we aren't doing things the way we are supposed to be - you mentioned that before - we also don't have an example of when we were. So, what are your thoughts on social injustice and what's your role in doing something about it? 

What are my thoughts of social injustice? It sucks. It's terrible. It breaks my heart - brings me to tears. But you can't just say it sucks. You can't just go out there and just create a campaign that This Sucks, you have to do it. So, the next question is how do you do it? I think you do it not on such a big... let me think for a second how I put this. I don't think it's a top down mandate. I don't think so. I've seen how those things work; they don't seem to work very long; they fizzle out. I think it's a consistent, long-term investment in loving others; particularly people that are on the fringes of society that are broken-hearted and don't know what right looks like. And you teach it to them gently - you don't force it on 'em - there's an opportunity for people that want to change. And through that kind of selfless love and outreach, I think you can reach people that are apathetic or part of the social injustice that have hard hearts - that don't care, that create this conflict - and maybe reroute the whole thing. And so, perhaps, you do that just by not being afraid of people that are kinda creepy and scare ya and try your best to love 'em. That would be my approach. I don't know any other way. I hope that didn't sound cheesy. 

I think a lot of people would share your sentiment, but it seems like our hands are tied. There must be something we can do. 

Kill people's pride (laughs), but you can't do that to people; they have to want to naturally change it. I don't know. I think a lot of that fuel does come from pride. And then just the selfish gain. Sometimes it's really wonderful to be in a selfless spirit, but sometimes it's not; sometimes there's really crappy people that you're like, Well, if you're gonna be crappy then I'm gonna put my walls up and be crappy, too. But then you kind of lose the battle. I think having a humble heart kinda guide you day-to-day gives you a deeper perspective on how to handle situations. If you're always through a prideful place, it could look like some of the social injustices of today. Well, they're not residents of America. The law's the law. This is how it is. And there's no room for people with that perspective... you can look at how they really feel... if it was their child being ripped away from their parent, it would be a different thing. I've seen that one recently and it drove me nuts. How can we be so polarizing on this and all agree that this is a really awful thing that is happening? Let's look at it through independent eyes - not through political perspectives - and treat this issue properly with humanity and love. Was it? Didn't seem like it. No. That part drives me nuts - the culture that we're in now seems so one or the other. It's just not like that. And everyone wants an instant fix and a lot of things aren't instantly fixed. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Yes. Yeah, I do. I just feel like I'm here to love others. Just be present; go on detours when I'm supposed to; to go places I haven't been yet that scare me; and grow; to be who I'm called to be. I think that's looking like a difficult journey at times 'cause I'm not there yet. You know? But I think I'm on track, which is good. Feels good. I have a lot of peace in my life. There's time where you're just a ball of humanity and you're just like, What the heck?! And you don't know how to feel. But deep down, I've got peace and purpose. So that feels pretty good. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

Making out. Kissing a pretty girl (laughs) that I love. Maybe she'd be my wife. That'd be good. And I want to eat more desserts without putting on weight, but that's not gonna happen. (Laughs) I like sugary desserts. Yeah, I think just a healthy, loving relationship would be awesome for a long time; like a covenant. That would be awesome. But I want to keep it simple. Maybe that's not a simple thing, but I don't want a Lamborghini or anything weird like that. I want to be able to have more time to make more art; that would be great. And just explore that space - that part of me - more often. 

Do you have anything else you want to put out there?

Yeah. For the people that are really frustrated with a certain group or idea, there's probably something about that that's fair. And, with that being said, they probably like cheeseburgers, too. And there's something you could probably relate to. And you should do that. And you should meet in the middle somewhere and actually talk to each other. Not yell at each other; not be divisive and crappy to each other. And you should even love that person. Please.

Do you want to ask me anything? 

Trying to think if I want a funny question or a serious question. I'm gonna go with a funny question. What's your favorite breakfast cereal?

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Oh, wow. I don't eat breakfast cereal. 

Ever?!

I have in parts of my life, but I don't at all anymore.

What do you think of Lucky Charms? Do they not make you happy when you look at 'em and eat 'em? 

They don't. 

You think they're empty and no nutrition, don't you? 

Yeah. 

(Laughs) Oh, where's the fun in you, Joshua? I'm having you over for breakfast and we're just gonna eat Lucky Charms. And a plate of bacon, too. 

My partner and I had a yard sale some months ago and we advertised free coffee to lure people in. It worked and ended up bringing Andrew by. We chatted for just a minute and I passed him my card on his way out.

Ed Weiser

Carol Delmonico referred Ed to me. We met for the first time at his home and dove into good conversation right away. While he graciously made me a cup of coffee, his cats, Katniss and Norton, sized me up and quickly gave me the okay. A grandfather clock served as a metronome to our time together - you might hear it in the background if you pay close attention. My grandparents had one of those clocks and I think of my grandmother whenever I see one. She used to always yell, "Pick one!" when I would make frequent trips in and out of the house, the screen door smacking the frame with every back and forth. That was back in Maine. And it turns out that Ed also spent some time back there. I like meeting New England folks; they have a different way of talking and I realize how much I miss it every time I reencounter it. It's matter-of-fact, but not rude. Ed has that way and I really enjoyed chatting with him. Maybe you'll recognize it as you read or listen below. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Tough question. I used to define myself a lot around my work. When people would say, Who are you and what do you do?, I would often give a work answer. Along the way, then I would also add in family. Now that I'm retired from paid work, I do define myself a little bit in terms of the volunteer work that I do, but I feel like I see myself now as a more whole person. I see myself as a connector, as a facilitator, as a leader, somewhat as a potential change agent - depending on the situation and people's openness to change. I've kind of adopted a tagline that I paraphrased from somebody else that I met a long time ago and I say my purpose now is to help your achieve yours. And I would like to be defined by that more than, probably, anything else. 

What matters to you? Or what motivates you?

That would be a whole conversation in itself if those were the same, or not, on any given day. The planet matters to me. The human race matters to me. Other people matter to me a great deal. And I feel like I can help other people be more of what they want to be or do more of what they want to do. Now, especially, that I'm retired from paid work, I continue to look for opportunities where I can have an impact on people's lives. I have a hard time saying, Well, I'm gonna impact the entire population of the Earth - it's just too broad. So what I've chosen to do is very specific organizations and then, generally, very specific people. Somebody's lost on South Sister. They need help. Can I help them? If so, and I have the availability, then through Search and Rescue, I go help them. Or can I help the people who can help them? If so, then I'll take a little more of an indirect role on a particular mission. Are there some social issues that I can help with? I think so. I try to. But, for me, it's more meaningful and more effective if I can identify a person or a small group and try to make a difference there. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart?

Well, short term, the current reactionary political and social climate concerns me a lot. The pendulum always swings a little bit, we always backslide a little bit, but I was deeply surprised at the amount of alienation that, apparently, a huge percentage of our population was feeling and probably still is feeling. I think I'm guilty of seeing the world through the eyes of the people on the two coasts. And even though I've lived in the Midwest for more years than anywhere else, I've lived in - in general - more progressive areas of the Midwest and I didn't see it. So, this extreme reaction and feeling of disenfranchisement and so many people feeling like victims and such a strong reaction to that has really surprised me. We tend to embody that in the form of one orange-haired man, but it's way beyond that; it's way deeper than that; it's way broader than that. I believe we'll come through this and probably for the better, but I've been disappointed in myself that I didn't see that coming. And I'm very concerned about what that really means for us as a society. Are we really that disenfranchised feeling? Are we really that contentious? Can there ever be a middle ground again? I think so. But it's gonna take a lot of work from a lot of people. Right now that concerns me a great deal. 

The environment. Pollution. This planet. Population growth - all the things that that drives and connotes - that concerns me, too. I don't know if I can do much about that as an individual. But the social and political climate and the extremism that I'm seeing - yeah, maybe I can help with that one life at a time, one mind at a time. 

What do we mean to each other person to person?

I think we have to have some common ground rules of behavior and decency and honesty and empathy or it doesn't work to be in a group together. Whether that group is a household or a neighborhood or a tribe or a country or state or a world, we have to have some common ground rules and operating standards and agreements on ethics and decency. And that's part of what I'm seeing is as being broken right now. So, we all depend on each other for our personal survival and for our species survival and it's not working too well right now. But that's what we mean to each other. I mean, it's survive, thrive - together or not. 

What does community mean to you? What does being a part of community mean to you?

Yeah, I think that's a good follow on question and it goes back to what I was saying before; we tend to artificially define our communities and also by the choices that we make - the people we choose to live around, the people we end up working with, the people we volunteer with, the people we communicate digitally with. You know, I think each of those are different examples of communities. And we tend to somewhat artificially define those and work within those communities. But, in general, communities are just a subset of what I was talking about before where it's a bunch of people that need to get along, need to be there for each other - that depend on each other, whether we realize it or not. Even digitally, someone who I've never met who's across the country or across the world, I'm depending on them in some ways to be responsive and to be empathetic and hopefully be positive most of the time. And, at least a teeny tiny part of me - or maybe a huge part of me - my happiness depends on my interactions with them. We never used to have digital communities. So, that's a big shift. Virtual communities - that's a big shift. I don't think we're very good at it yet, but I think we're doing okay. We can show lots of examples of how people are being oppressed or depressed through digital interactions, but you know, we're navigating that and figuring it out as we go. But that's so new that we're not that skilled at it yet. 

Regarding the common ground rules, the common part and the rule part are both interesting because I wonder what system we would use or create to convey that and to agree on it. I wouldn't say I disagree with you, but I'm curious as to what you're proposing. 

I'm happy to flesh that out a little bit. It might be easier if I had said common guidelines, but maybe it's somewhere in between guidelines and ground rules. To me, ground rules mean an operating set of assumptions and behaviors that we all pretty much embrace. Right? They're not laws on the books. So maybe they're not rules in that sense. And in terms of human behavior and interaction, I think you and I are operating under a set of guidelines this morning, right? You came to my house, you knocked on my door, I let you in - there's a whole bunch of assumptions there that we're both making. You assumed I wasn't gonna shoot you. And I assumed you weren't gonna attack me. And I think we both assumed that we'd have a civil interactive conversation. That's the type of thing that I mean. And when a person or a group doesn't embrace those guidelines and doesn't have that basis for their own behavior, all of the sudden it doesn't work very well. And I think we're going through a little of that right now. 

At least the slave owners were operating under a fairly common set of guidelines and ground rules. You look back on that now and slavery is just so incredibly unacceptable, but back then, they were doing it but they behaved in reasonably predictable ways. And under their own assumptions of life and the value of life and the value of life for different races, they were following those guidelines and ground rules. Again, completely unacceptable. But workable. And we worked and we changed that system. If everybody was doing it differently and wasn't operating under a common set of guidelines, then I don't know what happens. That's chaos. That's the definition of chaos. A community or a society or a group or a planet can't function well under total chaos. So, that's what I mean by ground rules. And the word rule may not have exactly the right connotation. Do you like guidelines better?

What does social injustice mean to you? And what is your role in changing that? 

So, I'm gonna choose to answer first a little bit differently and maybe talk briefly about social justice, is that okay? Because things that we hate and that we don't really get, like I hate social injustice and I don't really get it, it's really hard, at least for me, to define. I can define more easily what I like, what I understand, and then say that the other thing is the opposite of that. But I'll give it a shot after I define social justice. I think social justice goes to a lot of the things that we've been talking about. It's those positive things - it's progress, it's genuine interaction, empathetic interactions; it's thinking about the other folks, also. Maybe we're always gonna think about ourselves first, most of the time. Okay. I'll accept that. But let's then also think about the other people and the other groups and the other points of view and the other things. And, if we're operating under some common definition of common decency, then we can start to have conversations about what is social justice - what does that mean? To me, it's certainly not that everyone is equal. 'Cause we're not. I mean, are we all equal in income? No. Are we all equal in good looks? No. There's different definitions of those things, but are we all equal in age? No. We're not. We're not all equal. But does everyone have a reasonable and fair shot at doing well in those kinds of areas? That, to me, goes to the definition of social justice. It's not all of it, but it goes to that. When we start acting out of bias, being arbitrary, trying to put other people down, trying to do better or have more at someone else's expense, then that, to me, starts to get into social injustice. And I'm choosing not to try and give it a legal definition - a law definition - 'cause I think especially when you put the word social in front of justice or injustice, we go way beyond just a court case or a law on the books or something like that. 

So, is there social injustice? Yeah. Has there always been? Yeah. But like I said before we got started here, I believe that over the long term - over chunks of 30 years - we've gotten better and we are less unjust than we've been and we need to continue on that trajectory. I also strongly believe that people don't mind change or changes, what people hate is being changed or somebody trying to change them. I mean, the weather changes every day, every hour, you know. Lots of things change and we deal with that. But it's when somebody tries to change me that I react negatively; I get upset about that. So, like I was saying before, if we see some social injustice, we should tune into that; we should decide if we can help make it better. But, we shouldn't try to change it faster than the people responsible for that injustice can internalize the change. 'Cause we'll fail. Yeah, I would like to stamp out misogyny today! Right now! I don't want a woman to get attacked verbally or physically ever again, but I can't do that. I can't make that happen. But maybe through some small steps, I can take some of those other older white guys and get 'em to see things a little bit differently. So, I think we often embrace a cause and we push a little bit too hard. And it doesn't help that cause as much as it could if we took a little bit more of a measured pace to it. A lot of people disagree with that. That goes to the definition of activism or radicalism. Radical change, fast change - I don't believe that that's effective. 

*Ed and I have an interesting conversation about the idea of progress and racial discrimination and what we, as conscientious white males, are meant to do about it. It's best listened to and you can find it from 23:45 - 34:50.

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Oh yeah. Totally. Yeah, totally - that's easy. I mean, my purpose is to help you achieve yours and then I embody that with family, with friends, with Search and Rescue, with business mentoring and advising - yeah, those are my primary purposes right now and I'm fulfilled by those. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Time. Time in the day, years in the life. Another easy one. 'Cause with that, I can do more. 

Do you have anything else you'd like to put out there?

Yeah. Back on the social injustice thing. I hear people talk a lot about fighting social injustice. I think when we talk and think and act too much about fighting social injustice, we run the risk of alienating the very people we want to see modify their behavior. So, I tend not to think of it in terms of fighting social injustice, but encouraging social justice. I think there's a huge difference there in how its received by those folks that you and I pretty clearly think need some help. So, I bristle a little bit when people talk about fighting social injustice. I think it's a great conversation starter, though, to use that term. You might consider putting it back in, seeing how people react. 

Do you want to ask me anything? 

Alright, well, we did talk before you started recording and I'm still curious about what you're trying to accomplish through this project. It feels very worthwhile, but being an old business guy, I'm having trouble seeing what the measurable goals are and what action items there are that lead towards those outcomes. 

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When we talked about this earlier, you mentioned the "end goal" and I think I bristle at that like you bristle at "social injustice". I think your position on this is quite common and I'm obviously missing something. I need support for this project. I spend about 10 hours per interview - working on it, reaching out, getting the referrals, driving, talking, transcribing, processing it all for the internet in various forms that I put it up there. And I try to do all that in a way that even scratches at the surface of the feeling that exists when I'm here with you - looking at you; looking into your eyes; feeling what I feel; trying to share what you feel. And I'm doing all this because I experience mostly disconnect in the world. And that disconnect, I think, is at the core of all of these different injustices. There's something we're refusing to acknowledge in each other. So, I'm acknowledging it in you today. And you'll remember today and you'll be acknowledging it in me long after I leave your driveway. I don't think most people are as tenacious or maybe even as curious as to pursue that in this particular way, so I'm providing the experience for them. But I don't know how to get people to want to come to the site or listen to the podcast or offer me financial support. So, the goal's there; the process is really lovely; the how-to-fit-it-into-the-business-model-in-2018-America part is lost on me. 

Carol Delmonico referred Ed to me. We met for the first time at his home and dove into good conversation right away. While he graciously made me a cup of coffee, his cats, Katniss and Norton, sized me up and quickly gave me the okay.

Liz Goodrich

Carol Delmonico introduced me to Liz at a Stoke Your Woke event at the library and recommended her to this project right then and there. Not even two weeks later we were diving deep into it in her office. Liz is fiery and really fun to talk with. She's got a lot on her heart and mind and is putting really positive energy and good work out into the world. Our interview ended up being quite a bit more conversational than many others have been. If you listen to the audio, you'll hear a bit more of our back and forth than I transcribed. The main course is below, though, so you'll get a fair portion even if you choose to read. Liz tells it like it is. I like that. I come from Maine and maybe I'm romanticizing it or suffering from some nostalgia, but talking with Liz brought me back there. High-five, Liz! I'm looking forward to talking with you again and again. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am a daughter, a mother, sometimes a sister, a partner, and a library employee. In that order of importance, maybe. I value all those parts of myself and I'm happy to have all those parts working together. 

What matters to you? What motivates you?

That's a toughie 'cause I can tell you what doesn't motivate me. What's important to me is space to be creative, making sure that my family is happy and healthy. Friendships are something I value greatly. And I think as I've gotten older, I've come to value my health. Because my health was something I took advantage of when I was younger and now, as I age, it's like, Oh, I should have valued that sooner. 

What doesn't motivate me is money. I am lucky to have a job that I really, really love. And I'm surprised I get paid to do it because it's so much fun (laughs). And I get such satisfaction and validation through my work. So, I guess that's important to me, too - is to be validated by the people who I work for and with and by my family and friends. But I guess that means that I'm a yes person or that I like that affirmation. And I think everybody does. And maybe I like it more than the average person. (Laughs) I like to be affirmed that I'm doing good work. I do like spotlight. I mean, I think it's part of the reason why I'm good at my job and it's part of the reason my first marriage collapsed. Because there wasn't enough spotlight for both of us - my ex-husband liked a lot of spotlight, too - and there just wasn't enough to go around. That sounds so me, me, me and that's not so great, but I think it's an honest response. I'm not gonna pretend that that spotlight sometimes doesn't feel good. I also try to shine the spotlight on other people through my work and my family. 

What concerns you or what gives you a heavy heart?

Right now, just about every thing. You know, every day I wake up and it's like, What fresh hell will we read about today? I'm really concerned about the environment right now - the wildfires and is this our new normal? Or is it gonna get worse? Or, it's gonna get worse. And what's that gonna look like for my kids? My oldest son has already told me - he's like, I'm not having kids. And I'm thankful. I don't like to think about generations to come of our descendants having to deal. Dystopian literature is my very favorite - post-apocalyptic lit is my very favorite genre - but I don't want to experience that and I don't want anybody I love to have to experience that. 

I am extremely concerned about a woman's right to agency over her body. My mom's only sister died two years before I was born - 10 years before Roe vs. Wade - from a illegal abortion gone wrong. And the ripple effects that her death had on my mom's family just makes that an unacceptable... that is a non-starter for me to even think about that law - Roe vs. Wade - being rolled back, repealed. So, that's scary to me. 

The amount of gaslighting that's going on in our country right now. Saying one thing and making it be like it's your fault or You didn't hear that right - it's just crazy. I think that a lot of people don't know where to land on these conflicting points of view and it's thrown us all into this blender. And it's very, very worrisome.

I worry about my kids being lonely. My youngest boy's going off to college next year and I'm like, Is he gonna have any friends? Is he gonna live in the dorms? Is he gonna be lonely? And my oldest boy is 25, lives in Portland, and is really adulting in all the right ways. But I worry about him, too. So, concern for my kids. 

I feel heavy-hearted a lot of the times. And a lot of the days go by and like, Ugh, how are we gonna get out of this? What's gonna give us hope? But that is weird in itself… that some people - and I'm related to some - people think that this is fine, that this is great, like Make America Great Again. They're on board with that. And I've come to the realization that there are just two different ways of looking at the world. You know? I try. I do try and I struggle with trying. And I read all the articles about how you should talk to people with a different point of view and listening to them and I try. But that's a struggle. And when you have people on both sides with that strong ideology, what can you talk about in the middle? 

There's only so much value in talking about weather and sports and now, even in all of those conversations... you can't talk about weather without bringing in climate change and you can't talk about sports without talking about taking a knee. What's the point of talking about the bullshit anyways? Let's just get down to it.

Right. Except I think people need practice in talking civilly about things they disagree on... Maybe that's where we can talk about issues - is just saying, I understand what you're saying. I understand how you feel about this issue, but I... And I think that empathy of putting yourself in their position and saying, I get what you're saying and I understand why you feel that way, I just feel this way and I want you to hear me and what I'm saying and understanding my point of view. And we just don't do that anymore. Because I think that people have come to believe that by saying, I understand what you're saying that there's some slippery slope. That by saying, I understand means the next thing - I'm gonna agree. I don't think that's the case. It doesn't have to be the case. But I think that's where people are. If I understand you, that means (laughs) next stop on the train is I agree. And I don't think that's true. 

What do you mean to each other, person to person?

I guess it depends on the relationship, but I think as human beings, we all mean survival to each other. We rely on each other for our food, for our safety, for our well-being, for our health. We rely on other people. So, I think we mean everything to each other. And I think every person contributes to that. And then person to person, so I guess it depends on the relationship you have with that person. But I think globally, we mean survival to one another. We're all on the same planet. At some point, we all should be accountable to one another. To how it's gonna go down or not go down. 

Are we, though? Are we accountable? 

No. I don't think so at all. We certainly don't demonstrate that through how we treat each other or how we treat the planet. And this is something that's always gotten under my skin just a little bit. Some people don't have the ability to spool out the end game. Like, we cannot live on a planet that's seven degrees warmer. I always felt this way about Dick Cheney who was so invested in the oil industry - fossil fuels. I'm like, Do you not care about your grandkids? It doesn't seem that they do. Are they so profit... or do they have a bunker somewhere that I don't know about (laughs) or what? The money makes people do crazy things and not care about what's coming up - what's gonna happen. Am I just a doomsday-er? (Whispers) Possibly. I don't like to be. I like to consider myself an optimist, but boy, it's been hard. It's been hard recently. 

What does community mean to you? 

I think community is this lovely web of people that I can rely on and that can rely on me. Multiple different communities in my life are important - my community of my friends, my community at my work, my family is a community. It can tighten up and support you when things aren't going well. And knowing that, I can't imagine the loneliness of not having a community. It makes me feel so not out there on my own. In addition to my marriage, which is a small community (laughs), those communities that surround me are critical in keeping me balanced and happy. And I hope I do the same for the people in my communities. 

Why does social injustice exist - a person putting their needs above someone else's? What are we meant to do about it? A bunch of energy goes into all the different particular injustices, but it's like whack-a-mole. Work on one and another one pops up. What is your role in that?

All the groups that lose... we all lose rights, we all lose agency. There's one group that's not losing. And I think you can look back from the few first upright-walking humanoids and that it's about power and it's about status. And those two things only happen when somebody loses those two things. And I think that idea of winner and losers is something that's evolved with us, sadly. And I don't know what my role in it is. After the election, my husband and I were having dinner with our son and we started talking about things, you know, What are you willing to do? What matters to you most? And what are you willing to go the mat for? We had some discussion and we each came up with one thing. Like, your gonna go to jail. And Owen, my son, is like, I better start saving my allowance for bail money. 

So, I don't know what the role is. I think the core of the problem is systemic and you gotta get that fixed before you can deal with the whack-a-mole situation. But the problem is fixing that that makes the whack-a-mole problem - they're the winners right now; they're the people in power; they're the people with the money - and they don't have any desire - this is my opinion - the majority of them, they like where things are. So, I think the rest of us are left to play whack-a-mole. And it is frustrating and scary. I also think that part of the game here is that they keep us at odds playing the whack-a-mole. Like, black lives matter more. No, women's rights matter more. You know, as long as they can keep us divided on our issues, they'll just let us fight it out. It was that way with the Suffragettes. It was that way in the early civil rights movement. Are we gonna be part of the system and try to change it from within or are we gonna try to tear it down? So, you had women on both sides of that in the '20s. And they were super happy about it because as long as they were fighting, they got to maintain the control. I just read Handmaid's Tale, can you tell (laughs)? Yeah, I think as long as they keep us fighting each other for whack-a-mole time, that gives them cover to maintain the status quo, which is terrible. 

We're fighting all of our known history. And I imagine someone has been since there's ever been a first loser. And I just wonder what do I, personally - as the creator of this project or all the roles I play in my life - what do I actually think is gonna happen if I have all of history to look at? What is the example that I have that would show me any sign that hope is even a word? I know that is very sad and heavy, but what is it that we're hoping for? 

For me anyway, after this last election, I think I was willing to sort of tolerate a certain amount of... not tolerate, but not freak out about a certain amount of losses. ‘Cause it did feel like we were moving forward. That I always just assumed that progress was a thing. We started here and we are just gonna keep moving. But I think, as a culture, it's more cyclical. And the idea of going backwards to me is so unfamiliar. Why would somebody want to go back and take away something that we've had as a society? I don't get that. I don't get it. But progress doesn't look the same, I guess, for all people. Taking the things away that these people didn't think we should have had in the first place is acceptable. I don't agree with that. I think I did have hope that we were on the right track. I was completely blindsided by this whole election. I am a political animal. I've been a political animal for ever. My family always has huge debates over politics. At this time in my life, I wish I wasn't so tuned-in to what was going on politically. 'Cause it would be nice to just shut it off. And I think maybe a lot of people do - at our peril. But, boy, it would be nice to not be so angsty about it every single day. I don't know where I look to for hope. That's interesting. A lot of your questions are getting to that - where do I go for hope and solace in this space and time? 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Some days. Most days. Yeah, I do have a sense of purpose. I think my sense of purpose is to be a good family member and to do good work. And that good work can occur in different venues, whether it's my job or my home or with friends. Doing good is sort of my purpose. And good isn't necessarily narrowly defined; it can be a lot of different things. 

Do you have any language around what a general sense of purpose means? 

Yes, I think so. I think purpose is that thing... I don't want to confuse purpose with like a task list. I'm very task-oriented. I like to check things off my list. But purpose is larger than that and does something internally while you're doing something externally. So, doing something with purpose is not just about an activity or an action, but it's about an internal need to fulfill a purpose. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Naps. (Laughs) I want more naps. I love napping. Let's be honest. I want more of an ability to not get spun-up about things. So, maybe self moderation. And I want more kindness. And that means globally and personally. I want to be kind to people and kind to myself and sometimes I'm not to either. I can be a little snarky about things and I can beat myself up about things, so a little kindness practice on the personal and the other people plane would be good for me. I would like more of that. Naps and kindness - two awesome ones (laughs). 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

Yeah. I hope that people will not lose heart. And that's a hard thing to say because that is a daily challenge for me. And that losing of heart is paralyzing, exactly what you said. It makes you hunker down in your own little bunker and forget about the wide world out there of which we are all part of. I don't know. It is such a confusing time. Can we go back and talk about the spotlight? I'm feeling a little awkward about the spotlight comments (laughs). I don't know. It's messy. And maybe being human, that's just part of the deal - to be messy. And hopefully the mess isn't fatal. And that there can be a way to tidy up the mess without causing a mess for other people. I don't know. Sad. 

Is there anything you'd like to ask me? You can put me on the spot. 

What do you want more of in your life?

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I don't know what this is - it keeps happening - when someone asks me, I immediately feel like I'm sitting in therapy and I just want to cry. There's something to it...

I want to be able to eek out a living, very modest - I have no wealth aspirations; I find the whole game to be nauseating and extremely shallow and I'm fine that that sounds judgmental - but I need to survive in this system. And I want to do it this way. So, I would like to sort that out before it's too late. But, with that, I wish that people were more willing to not only have this conversation - with whoever, right; on your lunch break or at your family reunion or whenever - get down to it and learn about each other. And I also wish people were more willing to take that in instead of replacing it with all these void-fillers. Like, there's some basic, good ingredients and I think we just need more nourishment. And I get it from this.

Some validation. I could use some validation. Quite honestly, I could use an email from a stranger that was like, "Interesting project." That would be something. That would be a fair place to start. So, I guess I'll answer it with that vulnerability for now. 

Carol Delmonico introduced me to Liz at a Stoke Your Woke event at the library and recommended her to this project right then and there. Not even two weeks later we were diving deep into it in her office. Liz is fiery and really fun to talk with.

Britt McClintock

My friend Adam, from back in my Maine days, introduced me to Britt a few months ago. He was in California for a wedding, so I made the beautiful drive down there to meet up with him. And Britt, a friend of Adam's from college days, made the trip up from Southern California. Somehow our first meeting felt like a reunion and, without missing a beat, we got along splendidly. We tried to do this interview then, but it just didn't fit into our busy social schedule. As luck would have it, though, Britt came up to Oregon for a wedding and came through Bend with a lovely group of people in tow. We all became fast friends and the entire day was filled with love and a special kind of camaraderie. We carved out a little time for this conversation, which, for the first time in this history of this project, took place in my home. Then we walked around the block for some photos. Britt is a lovely human who is incredibly thoughtful and patient and kind. I am so grateful for our friendship and am very excited to introduce you to her here. Check out this beautiful documentary in which she explores some matters that are close to her heart. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, I'm Britt. I am... it depends on the day - sometimes it feels that way - who am I. I grew up in a small-ish town in Pennsylvania that I would say is extremely blue-collar and segregated. I grew up in a predominantly white environment. And so, being bi-racial, that was always a struggle to find who I am. I think, specifically, this year that's been even more of a question. So, that's a hard one to answer without drawing from every experience that I've had. I would describe myself as someone who is constantly questioning. At a young age, somebody said to me that sometimes the questions tell us more than the answers. And so that stuck with me forever. For whatever reason... I think that the richness of life is about, for me, questions and continually trying to figure out what we're doing here and what I'm doing here. 

What matters to you? Or what motivates you?

I would say probably the same - what matters and what motivates me has always been people. And conversations with people. I think, again, the richness of life, for me, is experiences. Questions, experiences, trying to understand where people are coming from. I think, like I said, being bi-racial, I always kind of felt in the middle of everything. I'm not quite white and I'm not quite black. So, not ever having firm footing of what I was, it kind of made me... I don't want to say it forced me into being more of an extrovert, but in a way it forced me to want to understand as many different types of people as I could. And so, I think my main motivation for life has always been people. Doesn't always pay the bills, unfortunately, though (laughs). So, what matters to me and what motivates me has never been something I can make a living out of. But, yeah, I guess maybe that's not what it's about anyway. 

What concerns you? What gives you a heavy heart? 

Things that concern me don't always give me a heavy heart, if that makes sense. I think the thing that has always given me a heavy heart is usually when I'm misunderstood in some way. I would say I'm a bit of a people pleaser. So I have a hard time when somebody has a hard time with me. And I spend so much time feeling sad about that kind of stuff. I don't know if it matters in the grand scheme of the world, but as far as what gives me a very heavy heart, yeah, it's usually when somebody misunderstands me or misinterprets something that I'm saying. That sounds kind of like a self-involved answer 'cause in the greater scheme of the world, there are things that make me feel extremely sad. But I feel like when I sum it up, it always ends up being when people aren't nice (laughs) to me and to one another. That's always something that makes me the most sad. And it seems the most simple. But, for whatever reason, the hardest for people to fix, in some ways. 

But the things that concern me make me feel more enraged. That would be like discrimination and politics as of right now are really concerning. The climate of our world is extremely concerning. I don't hold it in the same way, though. I don't feel as paralyzed by it. I still feel the need to go out and make a change, but for whatever reason, the things as far politics or discrimination are upsetting, but they don't hold the same weight as if somebody feels upset with me personally. I don't know. 

What do we mean to each other? 

Man, a lot of days, it feels like we mean nothing to one another. That's how it feels when I turn on the news. We mean nothing. We're not doing a very good job of taking care of one another. Especially in the last few years I've become a lot more of a pessimist, so my grumpy old man answer for that would just be like, Nothing. It's shit. But there's always a little part of me that wants to feel like we genuinely want to do better. So, what do we mean to one another? I don't really know. I don't know if that's much of an answer. 

Because of where I am in my life right now - I'm 32 and things aren't all that bad, but it's been a rough year. So, it's hard for me because I've been in a space where I don't really feel like a human most days. I don't know if that makes any sense. It's almost like I've not been feeling a very strong connection even to myself. So that's hard for me to answer because I'm not even really sure how I feel on a day-to-day. So, I've not felt super connected to anyone else. That it makes it hard for me. I mean, I guess we all go through this ebb and flow where we have depression and we may be in a better space. At a different time in my life, I would say we mean love. We mean acceptance and inspiration. But, I have to say I'm just struggling to feel that way. And I don't know where that comes from. I always make the joke that it's such a privilege, almost, to be able to sit around and be like, What am I? Who am I? (Laughs) Because a lot of people who don't have anything as far as wealth or anything in that regard, they don't have the space to sit around and think like that. So, yeah, I don't know. It's hard. The only thing that comes to mind when you originally asked me that was the word love. So, I don't know what that means and what to do with that. I guess I mean it not even in the positive sense 'cause love can be just so destructive. But, that was the one word that popped in my head when you asked me that. So, whatever that means (laughs).

I had an interesting experience where I was speaking with someone and we were talking about the things that we liked. And I found myself rattling off some books that I hadn't read in years, but they are those go-to... and you know when you say them it puts you in a specific category of... if I'm gonna tell you that one of my favorite books is On The Road, then you know that I appreciate Jack Kerouac and then that puts me kind of in this space of being like a little bit of a hipster who's cool and smart and you know. But when we were talking about this, a friend and I, I was like, I haven't even sat down and really read. And then she said to me, Do you really even like reading? You know, it's almost one of things, we know what the answer is or how we want to be perceived by people, but we never really sit around and actually say, Do I even fucking enjoy that? Does it even really speak to me? It used to, but I haven't read it in 10 years - I might hate it (laughs). 

What does being a part of community mean to you?

That's an ever-changing thing for me as I get older. I think as a young 20-some year old, the idea of community was a lot more about acceptance. I need to be a part of something because I need to be accepted because I'm pretty insecure so I should probably find that community and latch to it. And as I've gotten older and - I don't want to say I don't enjoy people - but I get acceptance in different ways and it usually comes from not people at all. I think now it's more about survival. Community, to me, nowadays is a lot smaller. The people that I choose to spend time with... it's been less selfish and more just I need a group of solid people around to remind that I'm not fucking insane. You know? To help me get out of my head. And give me some perspective. 

This question is one that I can't stop tweaking. It's mostly because I'm just trying to dump all of my stuff onto everybody that I ask. A general sense of inequality is what bothers me and you can deconstruct all of the social injustices down to essentially the same thing - underneath it all is inequality, in some shape or form. Do you have any thoughts on why we focus on the particular forms of social justice instead of what's underneath it all?

I mean we have been doing that to each other since the beginning of time. We, for whatever reason, we're designed in this really funky way to... I don't know, maybe we weren't. Maybe it's all learned. Maybe at some point. I just feel like we have something in us that's like, No, I'm better. Or because it's different, it means its better or worse or whatever it is. I don't really know exactly... it's how we've been known to function. That's it. I don't know what else there is to it. Sometimes when I try to understand racial injustice or whatever it may be - inequality in some way - I can't wrap my head around it. Ever. There's gotta be something that we don't have control over. I have no idea. Let's talk race. Like, If I sit down with a white supremacist - being black and gay and a woman (laughs) - if you prepped that person before they came and sat down with me and then they sat down and we tried to have a conversation... we do a pretty decent job when you can humanize something or you can put a face on something or you have a common interest in something. But we don't take the time to hear each other or listen to each other. I don't know what that is. If there's a part of us as human beings we're just.... we already have something in us that's like a sense of survival, but then you add social constructs and that kind of stuff. I don't know (laughs). I have no clue. That's a really hard conversation and question to answer. I wouldn't even know how to articulately answer that because I have no clue. 

So what do you do? What's your role in it? 

All I can ever really do is be willing to have really shitty conversations with people. And somehow stay patient and find some compassion and love. Somehow. To be like, Fucking idiot. And not say that but just be like... There's gotta be some reason we're in a room together and you're driving me insane and I'm probably driving you insane, but maybe there's a reason. I guess that's what I do. I've always been someone who's willing to have a conversation with somebody who's completely ignorant. It ages me 10 years every time I do it (laughs), but I really think that might be the only way. There are movements and things that happen. I do, I think marches and those things are very powerful, but when it comes down to it, you know - not that I'm some wonderful human being who's got all these answers and let me just tell you about the entire black community... I didn't even grow up in the black community, so I'm not the spokesperson. But I've read some books. I'm not a dummy. I can understand history and why we are where we are. So, I'm more than willing to usually have those conversations with people and I think that's the thing. You just have to be willing to put it all out there and we don't do that enough. I guess that's what I do. That's the only way I've ever been able to figure out how to kind of contribute to helping the cause. And I'm wrong sometimes, too, you know? And I do get frustrated. I think what happens with a lot of people is when you start to have those really tough conversations and then they get frustrated and they're like, I'm not gonna fucking do it anymore. That's why people are like, We're not gonna talk politics. We're just not gonna do it because it never ends well. And I think we give up too easy on each other. I think there's a time when you're like, Okay, I'm tired. I'm not gonna fucking do it. But you have to wake up the next day and be like, But I'm gonna have to try to do it again today. I don't know if that answers the question (laughs). 

Do you have a sense of purpose? 

When it comes to other people, I've noticed. I find a lot of my purpose when it comes to other people and their feelings and that kind of stuff. I have not been able to sit quietly with myself and have a sense of purpose recently. I don't know why. I can usually pull myself up by my bootstraps when it comes to someone else. Very easily. Like my mother drives me fucking insane, but she gives me a sense of purpose; I would do just about anything for her. And I would say I'm pretty fiercely loyal. (Laughs) I've not always crushed commitment at the relationship level, but I would guarantee that if you asked my past partners, they'd say, You're kind of a fucking idiot, but you are loyal to the end of time. So, yeah, other people give me a great sense of purpose, but I can't seem to sit alone and find a whole lot within myself. Yeah.

What do you want more of in your life?

I don't know if it is my generation - I don't know if it is technology or whatever - when you ask that, I have this funny thought where it's like I want adventure, but I want familiarity. Right? I want a sense of home. Coming into your home and thinking, This feels really good. I want that. But then I go on a hike and I'm like, I want to sell everything and then I want to do this. So, what do I want more of? I never know (laughs). I never know. I'm always very envious of people who find a thing that works for them and then they're happy to be like, Okay, I would like more of this. It doesn't even have to be a material thing, right? I want more intimacy. Or I want more this or that. I kind of make the joke, like I said earlier, being bi-racial where I'm always kind of locked between these two worlds is what it felt like, I sort of feel that way about most things - even my emotions. It's like I want more clarity, but I want to keep asking all the questions. I think to simple answer it, what I want more of is a sense of self. I want more of that. I want to feel more secure. Just one hour a day to be like, I'm doing a good job. And I don't have that. I don't have that thought a whole lot. I never really have. I've never really been my biggest fan (laughs). So, yeah, a sense of self. And I have one hour in the day where I'm like, (big breath) I'm doing alright. It sounds so simple, right? When I say it out loud, too, I'm like, Well just say that to yourself. But it wouldn't be genuine (laughs). 

Do you have anything else that you want to put out there?

Not really. We talked about doing this a couple months ago and, such is life, I can be kind of a hippy-dippy everything-happens-for-a-reason type - I have that in me a lot - and so I think there was a reason this was meant to happen in this moment. And I think, for me, I am in a state of vulnerability. I've realized that might be the only thing that gets us through is to kind of allow ourselves to be vulnerable. I think months ago or a year ago, doing an interview like this, it would have been a lot more of the answers of like, Let me show you that I'm well-read and well-traveled. And things that are true about myself - they are. But I wouldn't have been able to say, I don't know. I've been doing that a lot more. And so I guess, yeah, to end this it would be that this project brings a sense of vulnerability for people because I think that those important, hard conversations... I think that's what it is to create change. Dialogue and vulnerability (laughs). And if you don't have those things, what's the point? Why? What are you doing (laughs)?

Do you want to ask me anything? 

Yeah, I have millions of questions. Has this made you feel like you have some purpose - these interviews? 

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(Long pause) I can't possibly know what anybody's gonna ask. At least anybody that I interview can look at the project and get a sense of what I'm gonna ask, but these tend to derail me a little. 

I was born into the fundamentalist, evangelical Christian world and that's what I had. That's where I was born and that's what I knew and everybody gave me answers all the time. It's not a world for questions. It's only a world of answers. And it's cool or whatever that you get to know them. Right? And it never suited me. But one of things that world really puts on all of its people is a deep purpose. And everybody's is the same - it's that you're special. God picked ya; you're special; and your purpose is to get as many people on board as possible. So, I didn't really have to worry about that until I decided that shit wasn't for me. I'm sure the road to that was a bit longer than I recognize, but deciding that happened for me in college. So, I've spent fewer years of my life out of it than I spent in it still - I'm getting close to that line. So, I think I've wanted a sense of purpose since I decided that that wasn't mine. So, my answer would tend to be more in line with yours. 

I have a hard time explaining my previous project, I Heart Strangers, and this project - like what is it about these unique combinations of circumstances that lead to me doing this type of work? And I guess to me, it's strange or rare enough - unique enough - that I can put a purpose label on that. Right? And I guess it makes me feel a little bit okay to be able to say this is my purpose. I might have been able to say yes and call it quits with my answer to your question, but that's not the truth of it. I don't know if this... a sense of purpose? Sure. Whether or not it's real, I don't know. And that's the most vulnerable and honest way I can move forward and it's now what I expect of everyone. 

My dear friend Adam introduced me to Britt a few months ago. He was in California for a wedding, so I made the beautiful drive down there to meet up with him. And Britt, a friend of Adam's from college days, made the trip up from Southern California.

Shanan Kelley

Amanda Stuermer put me in touch with Shanan, recommending her with high praise. And Shanan enthusiastically responded to my invitation to participate here. We met for a coffee to get to know each other and to chat about some other things before meeting for this interview, so it seemed like we were old friends by the time we finally got down to it. It turns out that Shanan is super easy to be around. She's got a great, contagious energy and seems to be filled to the brim with encouragement. She's a real busy lady, but finds time to genuinely and deeply connect and, from what I've seen, she has an incredible knack for bringing people together. I look forward to all future things involving her. Keep an eye on the schedule for her Night Light Show with Shanan Kelley and Magnificent Guests. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am Shanan Kelley. How would I describe myself? I'm a creative. I'm really sensitive. I'm an introvert, but that usually shocks people; it just means that I power-up on my own. And I have to. If I don't have enough time on my own, I get real punchy. I produce The Night Light Show with Shanan Kelley and Magnificent Guests. I host and emcee a variety of events. I'm a writer and a yoga teacher. I manage a digital strategy agency during the day. I'm an auctioneer. I work a lot because I have a lot of good work. I'm very loyal. I'm a very big-hearted person. And I have a great sense of humor. And, right now, I'm also a little bit tired (laughs). 

What matters to you? What do you give a damn about? 

Hmm... I give a damn about a lot of things. I give a damn about communication and relationships. I give a damn about community wellness. I give a damn about social injustice and racial injustice. I give a damn about content that matters. I think listening is really important. I'd like to see people's skills improve in listening (laughs). I guess communication is really important to me. 

What gives you a heavy heart? What concerns you? 

Oh, god. What day of the week are you asking me on (laughs)? I look around and I see a lot of people who are really unhealthy. The baseline is not where I'd like it to be. I see a lot of people who are really, really, really angry. And I don't know that they're connected to it. If I'm on my walk and I'm feeling it, I'm really upset that racism is still a problem for us. It's like the most ridiculous thing that we separate ourselves by. So, there's one. I'm really, really upset that we are abusing in so many ways: we abuse our bodies, we abuse our relationships, we abuse ourselves at work. Like, everything that we have a relationship with is off in some way, it seems. I really have a heavy heart and get overwhelmed when I think about the criminal justice system. I actually almost can't even think about it because it's so fucked. I don't think that there's much hope for it. And it's on such a massive scale and has been for so long. I also... the violence obsession in our culture is not serving us. It's really interesting to be a very peaceful person - I've been really lucky that I can have peace as my thing - and someone who believes in art and believes in love and all of these things and know that I'm looking around at my culture and, on a massive scale, people are making money off being violent and being terrible and being abusive and mass-consumerism... How do you find a place for yourself in a world that is so far away from anything that makes sense or is reasonable? But, obviously, I'm very good at also seeing the beauty in things. So, one day at a time. 

What do we mean to each other on a person-to-person level? 

We can't do any of this without each other. Good, bad, or ugly. Or great. Or all of it. You know, we can't really have much of anything without being able to have some type of reflection back from another person. I think that we all hold up mirrors for each other. And maybe not everybody sees it that way or is choosing to get the most out of that. But I definitely think that that's what we're doing. 

What does being a part of community mean to you? 

It's an interesting conversation, for sure. And I think my answer is probably gonna be all over the place. But, because my understanding of community and how necessary it is has really evolved over the years - particularly in the last couple of years - I recognize as I'm on my path to becoming as well as I can be that it's essential that I have people around me. There's different areas where you need specific help and support and community, and so I have these specialized areas where I have a lot of strong community. 

And then in the larger sense, I can say several years ago - I had been living in Bend at the time for I guess five years or so - and I was I was having a hell of a time. I was coming out of the recession. I was experiencing a death year - I don't know if you've ever had a death year; it's really intense. And my dog got really sick and almost died and this really crazy miracle happened. Everybody put together a crowdfunding page - this was kind of when crowdfunding was still pretty new - and in like hours this chunk of money was available for me to get this emergency surgery for my dog. A lot of the names were anonymous, but looking through at these amounts of money that came through, I was like, I have something here that I didn't even realize I had. These people have me. Because of whatever I have invested in them along the way. This is how it's being reflected back to me. And I can tell you that if that hadn't have happened, I probably would have left. I think I was so down. I was so at the bottom of where I could be at that time that if that miracle hadn't happened and if my community hadn't stepped up and responded in that way, there wouldn't have been a reason for me to be here because I wouldn't have known it was there. But they showed me. In this really concrete way, they demonstrated that they cared about me enough to pony up cash to set me up to have this crazy experience with my dog, who was at the time absolutely my unit. It was really interesting to look back on that and know Oh, if this had gone a different way, I wouldn't have stayed. I would have have just gone back up to Seattle with my tail between my legs and whatever (laughs). 

Yeah, what does it mean to be a part of a community? It's both. I love the feeling of belonging to a community. I do consider myself a community artist. And then, at the same, I think there's a lot of responsibility that goes along with that on my part. So, I owe it to my community to bring the thing that they need, so I need to be able to listen in and know what that is. I then also have to be willing to take a risk and put my own spin on it and put my own word and messaging out there, too, and know however it's received is irrelevant. Or maybe it is relevant. I don't know. And then I also think that there's a couple of other parts of the agreement. And, actually, this is maybe where we need to start just having contracts with how we engage with our community because it probably would serve us well to have it written out really well. I also think it's important for me to leave this community and go see what other communities are doing and bring that back and share that with what I have here. 

I also think, for me, I have so many different communities. I have all these different things I have my fingers in. And so a lot of them very much overlap and I like that. But it can definitely be... it's full. It's really full. In a good way. 

What can we do to promote equality or combat inequality?

It's probably person by person because how do you want to be while you're doing your work? Do you want to be in resistance? Do you want to be in opposition? Do you want to be fighting? Do you want to be arguing? Or do you want to be standing up for? Or do you want to be speaking out for? Or do you want to be in solidarity with? What are the words that actually resonate with you and make you feel good? And you'll probably have a physical response - a different physical sensation - for those different types of words. And then you know who you are. Like, I know for me, I'm not meant to be in resistance. I'm not gonna spend my life in resistance. I don't want to be bracing myself all day long. I want to be standing up for. I want to be doing my work. I want to be listening. I want to be standing arm-to-arm with people who are doing what needs to be done. I don't think that I'm someone who's meant to work myself into the ground, but I'm definitely someone who's meant to do her work and her work alone. So, yeah, I want to do good work. And I want to feel satisfied by it. And I want to know that I did that right. And I saw that through and I did my work and I did the growth that I needed to do. How do we move these things forward? We go find the right resources. We go find the right people to listen to. For you and me, we probably shut up a lot and listen more and we do the work - we do our work. And a lot of us don't know what that is yet. So part of that work is going out and finding what that is.

If we can engage a bit deeper on that, what do you suppose is behind the millennia of perpetuation of inequality? There's so many people not in support of racism, but here we are. My going about my work and you going about your work doesn't seem to be answering that. 

I'm not just talking about you taking photographs and me making people laugh. So, what I'm coming to realize is that it's so easy for me to say, Oh, that guy driving down the road with a confederate flag is the reason why we have racism. But, actually, the reason why we have racism is because I'm benefitting from white privilege and I'm not aware of it. And, therefore, I'm a part of keeping it in place. And so many of us - you and me and all the people that we know - are not aware of it and so we are absolutely the reason why it still exists. And I don't think it's fair or appropriate to point at that guy over there and say it's him because it's all of us. And so when I say, Do the work, that means all of us have to do the work. We have to find out the specific examples and ways in which we are a part of it, perpetuating it, not dismantling it - not dismantling the actual systems that are in place that keep us separate from each other - and then we have to figure out what to do about it. We have to go out and dig up those resources - people who actually know. It's probably not a white lady. It's probably not a white man. I'm not hearing those voices telling me how to dismantle this system, generally speaking. I mean, maybe a little bit here and there. I've had some great voices come through from the work I've done with The World Muse, but for the most part, the people that I'm listening to specifically on the topic of racism are people of color - women of color and some men of color. And, again, if I'm not actively dismantling it, what am I doing? I'm continuing to let it be in place. And, in fact, I'm taking part in it. 

And it's interesting being a woman because as a woman I can't even tell you how many times I have been chased or attacked or felt unsafe. It happens all the time. You walk passed someone and you know there's not much I could do in the event that this particular situation went sideways. So it's really easy for someone in my position to be like, Oh, well, I'm doing all I can to fight that. But, I need to be doing more. I need to be doing more. I need to be dismantling white supremacy and the ways in which I, Shanan, benefit from it. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

I do. And, again, I'm a little tired right now (laughs). I do have a sense of purpose. My general intention for my life is I want to make as many people laugh as possible, which is funny because I'm a pretty serious person, yeah? I want to write. And I want to help people find their wellness. I want all three of those things to work really well together to give me a balanced life so that I can show up properly for all of that work. So, I want to use my best skillset to serve my brothers and sisters on this planet. 

Do you think a sense of purpose is shared by most? 

I am surround by really amazing people for the most part. I've been aware of this for a really long time. I would say that it really started to noticeable shift when I started to really consistently practice yoga and then, for sure, when I transitioned into teaching. The people that I'm surrounded by, on average, are people who have purpose. And I really do think that the people who surround you are maybe the biggest influencer in how your life is gonna turn out - how it's gonna be - in the moment and in the bigger picture. So, I'm really lucky and then I also really work for it. But I literally hang out with some of the most amazing people. It has been that way for years. Like, if I'm having a bad day, I have the kind of people in my life where I just think about them and I'm like, Well, I can't be doing too bad if these are my friends. I have friends with a whole range of different senses of purpose; from food to nourishment to wellness to music to recovering their culture to working in the women's movement to working in social justice, working in racal inequality - I mean, a huge range. And then I also have friends who are still kind of in that, Well, this is what you do. You work this hard so that you can have X, Y, and Z so that you can take care of your family. So I have both. But they're still operating at a really high level. 

What do you want more of in your life?

I want more resources to do the work that I am meant to do here. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

(Laughs) Maybe it's not about having the answers, maybe it's about having the questions. I think we have really lost a lot of our communication skills and we're confused about that because we appear to be communicating all the time. But is the communication meaningful? Is it actually solving what we need it to solve? Are we actually taking in what we need to be taking in? Are people overwhelmed? Clearly we're off-balance. We're not quite optimally functioning within the realm of how we relate to one another. So, I think right now is a really, really important time to have meaningful conversations and really get good at having meaningful conversations with people that we may not agree with, that we may not know, or people that may be in our families that we haven't gone there with before. Now's the time to buff up those skills and push it. Why would we wait? 

Do you have anything that you'd like to ask me?

Yeah, what's your larger vision? 

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None of us asked to be here. We were born. I feel that it's a passive beginning. And because of that - and I am for sure talking to myself, too - I think we owe each other quite a lot of grace and patience. And I also think we owe each other some sort of explanation. I want to know who I'm with. I don't know where the curiosity came from. I can't pinpoint an event in my life that brought me here, but it's a recurring theme. I know often the difference between a mediocre day and a great day is an interaction I have with someone. That's most often the thing. I love a connection with someone. I like it when it's at the coffee counter; I like it when I get a flat tire on my bike and somebody helps me out; I like offering the person that's checking me out at the grocery store a piece of the chocolate I'm buying. I really enjoy the little chances that we have to engage. And I'm a photographer and I've got an audio recorder and I like to write and I have this combination of skills with a curiosity that I want to share it. I want to share the experiences. And right now I'm sharing them through this - A Community Thread - because not everybody has that same drive; they'e not willing to go record conversations with people. But I think the more we know about each other, the more we find out what we have in common, the greater the opportunity for peace. I go back and forth with the greater vision. Sometimes I want to say that I'm not trying to change the world, but I guess I am. I guess I am trying to change the world. I'm fed up with the way it is. It doesn't resonate with me at all. I think things are a total mess. And so I want to find things that aren't a mess and give them some light. And hope that the more that happens the less of a mess things become. 

Amanda Stuermer put me in touch with Shanan, recommending her with high praise. And Shanan enthusiastically responded to my invitation to participate here. We met for a coffee to get to know each other and to chat about some other things before meeting for this interview, so it seemed like we were old friends by the time we finally got down to it.

John Hughes

Rose Archer very kindly put me in touch with Barbara Hastings to learn about my Enneagram type. While chatting with her she highly recommended that I interview her partner, John. She patched us together via email and, without delay, John and I set up a time to meet. He met me at their door and we immediately dove in. We were well into a deep conversation by the time we even reached the top of the stairs and over an hour went by before I got my recorder out. After getting a little acquainted, I learned that John's a musician and he often won't let anybody listen to his music. He pointed to boxes and boxes of music files, so I found it impossible to ignore my urge to lovingly chide him about his similarities to Vivian Maier. John's a very wonderful guy. And he's challenging himself to look for more opportunities for connection, so I'd like to encourage you to say hello if you happen to encounter him. I am grateful for our meeting and sincerely looking forward to our next time together. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Hmmm. How would I describe myself. Well, I think I'm kind of part monk and part artist and part... I don't know. After a while, labels get to be rather restrictive because we have a tendency to narrow the idea. I guess in the purer, spiritual sense, I'm just a field of energy that's taking up this form and I don't really know who I am (laughs). You know? 

What matters to you?

Well, I used to give the answer that love was the only thing that mattered to me. And then I started to realize that I didn't really know what love was. I just had these different ideas about what love was. And that it, in some sense, was a little bit too general. But what really matters to me more than anything is connection with my fellow brothers and sisters. That really matters to me a lot. 

What does it mean to you to experience a disconnection?

Well (laughs)... yeah the disconnect always starts within. This is the difficult part of the journey - is to realize that if I have been reclusive, what is it that I am disconnecting from myself? In one sense. Let me try it on another way. Disconnect starts within me but I recognize that my disconnect is actually something that I can heal and I trust my brothers and sisters enough to want to take the risk to see what might happen if I could hazard that experience of being in a strange place with other people to see if I can better understand the disconnect. 'Cause I have all these theories and I think everybody does. Well, we have disconnect because their different political affiliation or they go to a different church; we have these ways that we subdivide ourselves, which I think really feeds the disconnect on a much bigger scale. But if we can throw away all of those imaginary boundaries and just sit across from someone, can we discover - can I discover myself - in your eyes? I think that's the key. And so, I think the disconnect is just the grand illusion, right? 

What motivates you?

(Laughs) You're asking all these really great questions because I've been asking myself that question a lot lately and I'm starting to question whether or not I really know the answer to that. I think at different times in my life I have used things like money to motivate me. Because I drank that capitalist Kool-Aid that said, You're gonna be so much better if you have a lot of money. Of course, it's pretty easy to see the fallacy in that one - that doesn't require any greatness. So, I think the thing that is motivating me - and this is maybe gonna sound like too much of a repeating theme - is this kind of interaction, this kind of conversation. I am motivated to have that. And I think if I look at it from within, why haven't I been? James Hollis, I was listening to him last night, and he talks about that regardless of who we are as personalities, at the end of our experience we have this essential fear. And there are only two different manifestations. If we want to understand what is making us afraid, it's either gonna be having to do with overwhelmment or with abandonment. And by asking that question - I ask that to myself in regard to this - and there is the fear of being overwhelmed by the presence of another person or a group of people. And that's what I need to actually put myself into that field to see if I will be able to handle it. Now, for most people who are super social, to them that seems silly. But, to me, it's definitely working my edge (laughs). 

What gives you a heavy heart? What concerns you?

Oh, god. Yeah... there are so many things that one can point to. David Whyte, the poet, has a lovely line where he says, The world's harsh need to change you. That brings me a pretty heavy heart because what I see America doing is they have this harsh need to seemingly change a lot of the world to their specifications. But it's not just that, I mean there are so many things. I thought once that if I were a woman in the world, I wouldn't want to be because of how harsh we have been towards women. Towards blacks. There's just so many. I think there's a dark side to humanity, you know, that we are not very kind to one another. So, I think it's unkindness. 

What do we mean to each other? 

Hmmm. What do we mean to each other? That's a great question. Hmmm. I can only think of present examples, but what you mean to me in this moment is... you mean to me to present a field of energy to where I can actually reconsider how I'm seeing the world. And, in this moment, that would be a valuable way to evaluate a moment in terms of meaning. Are you someone that is going to bring out my best or my worst (laughs)? And I think that's a challenge, right? Because we go out into the world and what if we get triggered? We don't want the worst of ourselves to come out. But when the ego gets triggered, fuck, we're screwed (laughs)! 

What does community mean to you? 

Yeah, community has been something that is another concept that I've been exploring. For me, it's about wholeness. It's really about practicing the letting go of this idea of being separate. 'Cause that illusion doesn't hold water anymore like it used to. So, community is definitely about me remembering the wholeness that there is no separation between you and I or anybody or anything in this world of form. 

What might one's role be on a regular basis of working towards social justice, equity, fairness, and kindness? 

Well, it all comes back to working on myself. I would like to externalize that, you know, that I would be kind if dot dot dot, but it doesn't work like that. Everybody knows that, yet we go around operating as if... there are so many examples, but I really need to be the guy that I want to meet. I had this experience once - I do five-day meditation retreats here - I went to Costco a day or so after I came out of one of these retreats and I was really studying this whole idea of really, at our essence, we're innocent. And so I'm standing at Costco, watching all these people come out of Costco and I'm just looking at their faces and I was struck by the innocence that I saw in everybody's face. And I thought, Wow! I've never had that experience before. (Laughs) And I thought, How cool! And, of course, that didn't last more than a day. But I think if I can see somebody's innocence even if they're behaving like Hitler, then I have mastered myself. And so, I think it really is, as they say, the inside job to practice kindness. 'Cause there are plenty of times that I'm just ornery and I forget that kindness is an option. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

(Laughs) God, you're hitting all of the ones. Yeah. That's something I'm reexamining again. The ego is such a master of disguise that at any given point, it's just my make-up that I need to question that. Even if I can feel it in my heart that it's true, I still feel responsible to question it. So that becomes a mechanism that prevents me from actually becoming fully actualized. Because, well, I don't really know that that's true. Right? So, I get to continue to hide instead of really actualizing a meaningful and purposeful existence. And yet, you know, we were talking earlier about how many of us drink the Kool-Aid that culture serves that tells us that having a career and making lots of money and making babies and having a big house and forty cars and, you know, whatever - that that's meaning. And a lot of people end up going to the grave thinking that that was a meaningful life. I've met a lot of people that when they get older they actually say they have no regrets and I find that so difficult to believe. So, meaning and purpose is the first thing that a parent should really instill in their children - is Why are you here, dude? You need to figure that out. More than I need to control you. So, yeah, right now if I had to say what my purpose is, is I think my purpose is sort of threefold: to get better at my craft, to really connect more deeply and more frequently with my fellow beings, and really learn how to be a better human.

How does it make you feel to have more questions than answers?

(Laughs) It makes me feel great because if I don't have questions I think that I'm really asleep. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

I guess the only thing that I'd like to put out there is I would like humanity to invite each other to dance more. And I mean that as a metaphor. Yeah, I would like to see humanity take the risk to not listen to what culture says is acceptable behavior and just to talk to a stranger in the grocery store. Yeah, I don't know. I'd like to see the boundaries of fear dissolve to - to use an old hippie term - to have a love-in, so to speak (laughs). 

This is a recent addition and you couldn't have known about it, but would you like to ask me anything? I've been answering the question after the interview, but have been feeling as though that might be unfair as you have to answer all these questions on the spot. So I am toying with the idea of answering it here and now. 

I find that this whole process of your invitation to have the conversation, first of all, to be so amazing. So it piques some very deep curiosity in me in terms of who you are. What are all the threads in you that have come together to be this photographer, community-builder, questioner? There's this mix, this great texture of who you are. And so I'm trying to find the question (laughs) to ask you. Yeah. Who are you (laughs)? How would you describe yourself?

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I've been wondering... for this project I've asked that 89 times and I've been wondering what I would say. It's an easy thing to just say something to, but I think it's quite difficult to answer honestly. I'm wounded. Deeply, deeply wounded. And I'm often not very proud of myself. I recognize a lot of behaviors that I often judge other people for having or for exhibiting. And I, as I said before, have a tendency to feel really heavy. And, as a juxtaposition, I like to have a pretty good time. You know? I have a sense of humor - maybe a little bit darker than some others'. I enjoy intimacy. I value my friendships very much. I think I hold myself accountable to a high standard and then I also expect that from others, so that makes me someone that's contentious. And I have a difficult time - and I always have, as far back as I can remember - I have a difficult time fitting into the system. And that might mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but that leads me to a lot of confusion. Various times in my life, I've been told things about myself that have led me to believe that I should be doing something a little more calculable. And so then, just doubt - just so much doubt. For much of my life I was told that there was a particular way and there was a particular god and there was a particular code and there was all these answers and isn't it so lovely that we've given them to you? And when I decided that I didn't agree with that, it just opened up a complete, seemingly infinite, unknown; where now I have to be very careful with the judgments that I put on people. But I still have all these tendencies to do so. So I have got lots of questions. I would describe myself as someone with a lot of questions. And this is my current attempt at looking for some answers.

Rose Archer very kindly put me in touch with Barbara Hastings to learn about my Enneagram type. While chatting with her she highly recommended that I interview her partner, John. She patched us together via email and, without delay, John and I set up a time to meet.

Erin Collins

Alyson recommended I connect with Erin. In our first correspondence, she mentioned that we had previously met at a workshop with Mark Montgomery at Bend Community Healing. It must have been close to a year ago, but I remembered meeting her. We played the scheduling game for a few weeks, but we were finally able to meet up at her home. I am so glad we made it work because we had a wonderful conversation and I am really excited to share it with you below. I felt very peaceful chatting with her. She talks about some of the recent changes in her life and I got the sense that those changes have allowed her to become a fuller and truer version of herself. I wonder how different our conversation would have been last year. You never know how you will cross paths with someone and when you might meet again. Maybe you can go about your day with that in mind? Try it just for today and see how it feels. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

That's a question that is always evolving. I think I have three big hats that I wear right now: one is as a mom to my two small boys; the other one is as a teacher of yoga and meditation; and the last one is using my experience and my credentials as a hospice nurse, embarking on the roll of end-of-life doula - so, a guide in helping our community reimagine death and dying.

What matters to you?

Love. Humanity. And connecting to others. I think that that is where we can move forward. Because right now there is a lot of disconnection and a lot of divide. And so, although I don't consider myself an activist by any means, I think there's room to be active in helping people reconnect to our humanity. And that comes from projects like this. It comes from finding your passion and what you're really good at by listening to your heart. And when you listen to your heart and then live by what your heart tells you you're passionate about, then you can go out and take that into connectivity - into connecting to people based on what your passion is. Whether you find somebody who shares that passion or somebody you can serve with your passion. 

What motivates you? Or where does your motivation comes from?

When somebody tells me that something I've said or some interaction we've had or something I've done for them changed them. So, that's how I got into end-of-life work. I became a nurse and I worked in oncology - so, cancer care - and I had some really profound patient interactions in my first year where people... I mean, I can remember one woman who had lymphoma and she had her first surgery of her entire life and I was her nurse for the night. She'd been through a lot, but first time she'd ever been through a surgery; and she was... wow, she was down. But whatever happened in that night, the next time that I saw her she was like, You changed the whole experience for me. Your presence changed that experience for me and made it not so scary. That was really motivating to me. That was reassuring to me that what I was doing at the time was what I was meant to be doing. And so that was inspiring and motivating to me. I've continued that work and continued to be motivated and inspired by those patient interactions, so that eventually what happened is last fall I left my job as a hospice nurse because all the management piece was getting in the way. In the way of having those motivating human interactions with people I was caring for. And so I got inspired and motivated to go out on my own and be able to provide this service or provide care, companionship, presence to people outside of that structure. Not that I'm against that structure, but it just wasn't working for me anymore and it was taking away my motivation. 

What do we mean to each other, person to person? 

You and me? We are what this is all about. I teach a lot about being stardust. Right? And sometimes that sounds really kind of hippy-dippy, but it's Carl Sagan's quote and if you want somebody who's not hippy-dippy, that's Carl Sagan. But, the fact is, we are made up of what the entire universe is made up of. And so I often teach this meditation where I kind of take people like way out into the universe and from out there look back at who you are. You're a tiny speck of stardust in one universe among many universes. So, if you take that perspective and then zoom back in to see all of us interacting as specks of stardust, then we are what that is all about. And so us working together, existing together, cooperating, learning about each other - we're in this together. And one of my favorite quotes by Ram Dass is, We're all just walking each other home. 

What does community mean to you? 

I feel like I've been leading into this a little bit, but community is the only way for us to move forward. Supporting each other, feeling safe with the people around us. Whether that means feeling safe and secure or safe to be ourselves and safe to understand that the family across the street who our kids love each other and we rely on them all the time and they rely on us, but have very different views; we share some lifestyle similarities, but a lot of lifestyle differences, as well. Their politics doesn't matter; their religious beliefs don't matter; how they recreate doesn't really matter. But that here we are - two families living across the street in our community and we totally can rely on them, regardless of what our beliefs are. That there isn't a divide down the middle of our street... They believe something completely different, so I would never talk to them. We're on this street where people have a lot of different views, but we are community. And we rely on each other and help each other out and we know that if the garage door's left open, they're gonna come over and shut it or they're gonna call me and say, Your garage door's open. If my kid gets hurt and I have to go to the hospital with my kid, they're gonna be like, Leave everybody else here; we got this. So, I think it provides us with security in who we are. And in that security in who we are, we can express our differences; we can realize that our differences aren't as important as our commonality as human beings. 

What concerns you? What gives you pause? What's heavy on your heart?

There's two things that come up for me. One goes along with what motivates me in reimagining death and dying. And what's heavy on my heart is hearing or reading about a story of someone dying in a hallway in a hospital because they were trying so hard or somebody was giving them false hope or they were't able to acknowledge death as a part of the life cycle. That level of suffering at the end of life gives me pause. And that's what motivates me to try and change that; starting in our community and then broadening from there. The other thing that gives me great pause is atrocious treatment of humans by other humans. And I don't listen to the news a lot because I hear those stories and it can be paralyzing and I don't want to be paralyzed. So, I allow myself the opportunity to know what's going on and figure out how to do something about it. Maybe not as an activist - as I mentioned, I don't consider myself an activist. Especially children, you know? What just came up at the border. And it's like I just can't imagine a human looking another human in the eye and treating them so evil. 

On that topic, it doesn't surprise me that one person at the top made a ridiculous decision. What does and will always surprise me is that so many people below him agreed to follow it. From law makers all the way down to a guard, thousands of people broke a moral code. You mentioned this before that in your work the environment wasn't allowing you to thrive. And that's what we're looking at here. Maybe there were people who wanted to refuse to do that, but they also needed a paycheck and they had to decide between moral and survival. Maybe this makes me peculiar, but I don't want to survive without my moral. The fact that so many people are willing to do that gives me pause. So, the question is, how do we promote social justice?

I think a lot of it starts really early. And it starts in how we teach our kids. Not just in the schools, but how we teach 'em in our homes. And I think teaching the children that we are human and that we all deserve basic rights and beyond basic rights. Building community, building connection, so that kids at school see each other as each other. Not us and them. Not, Well, they live across the tracks. Kindness - teaching kids kindness and acceptance and supporting each other. So that as we move forward... because there's a lot of people where this is happening, who are a lot older, and some of them will change, but a great majority will not change the way it's always been done, the way they've always believed, or whatever trauma came to them way back when that caused them to believe what they believe now. But, in the words of the wonderful Whitney Houston (laughs), I believe the children are our future. That is where we start to build this groundwork. And that is how we contribute to what's gonna come down the road: creating and building and making these children and young adults accepting. And I'm not saying that we all have to have the same beliefs; that we all have to be liberal, progressive, democratic, all love people. But that we can listen to the other side and we could be open to the possibility that somebody might have a good point; even if it's different than what my opinion is. So, it starts low and it evolves into leading by example.

And I think sharing interactions with other people that are positive. And even if it's not positive; if you have a conflict... there's peaceful conflict. There's a way to hear somebody out that doesn't get elevated. And in my work what I do is teach people how to breathe; how to pause; how to respond instead of reacting. So, whether it's with their child, with their partner, with their boss, with a car accident - that you can pause and handle it without elevating it. We can do this. We can interact. We had an accident. Let's take a minute. Okay, what happened here? You know? Instead of immediately going into blame. What do you think just happened? Okay, well what I think just happened was this. And try to find that common ground and deal with conflict peacefully. And then take it from there. From day-to-day interactions, day-to-day responding instead of reacting, day-to-day pausing. And then seeing like what you said about where does your heart feel heavy? What lands heavily on your heart? And then what level do you take that to as far as injustice goes? If something is heavy on your heart, are you an activist? One of my yoga philosophy teachers is a man named Ravi Ravindra and he lives in Nova Scotia and he teaches at the university and whatnot. And he tells this great story about his daughter who was so outraged about what was going on in Halifax and so upset and gets in this fight with him and she's just like, How can you not be outraged?! Why are you not down there marching right now?! And he just paused and he smiled and he said, Because, my dear, if we were all out pounding the pavement, there would be nobody to get us out of jail. So, some of us, our activism will be being present and ready when we have to bail somebody out of jail for doing that work. So we all fit together. And there's a role for all of us to contribute to bettering our community, bettering our society, and working out these injustices, but on different levels. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Yeah (laughs). There's my short answer. Good enough? Let's move on. Yeah, I think my sense of purpose really, really bright to me right now is helping people recognize the cycle of life and recognize death as a part of life. And recognizing that all of this is temporary. The trees are temporary. Our conversation is pretty temporary. So, when you start to take that perspective, it can change a lot of those interactions, those conflict interactions, as well. Right? Starting to recognize that I don't have to get elevated and get completely wrapped up in this conflict. This conflict is temporary. It will fade. It will [subside]. So that temporary nature of things, and embracing that fact, I think can change a lot of the way that people interact with each other even. 'Cause it changes the way they interact with their own life and the way they view their own life and the stages of life that they're in. So, that, I feel like, is my big purpose right now. Embracing aging, doing it well - whatever well means to you - so that you can approach the end of this life without fear. 

What do you want more of in your life? 

I want more vacation (laughs). You know, I don't want for a lot right now. I feel really, really fulfilled. I think a lot of that came from getting motivated to do something on my own and to stop fighting against a structure that wasn't working. And when I did that it freed up a lot of joy in my life. And it gave me the freedom to live each day how I want to live each day. Whether I have responsibilities - responsibilities for my children or to teach a class or to be with someone - I am making that choice. Or whether it's I have a whole day open and I can choose to do whatever I want with it. I have a healthy family. You know, I don't really want for anything; I feel really satisfied with each day as it comes. 

Do you have anything else that you want to put out there?

Well, I'll put out there that this is an awesome project and I think that these kind of interactions, like you said, getting to know somebody who why would you ever know them any other time, you know... it's really cool to get to know somebody. So whether you are introducing yourself to a stranger or you're meeting somebody at a party who you've never talked to or you're going to an event that you never think you would go to and putting yourself out there, I think it's important to continue this - this thread of community, as you call it. That we need to get to know each other. And respect each other. And live together. And walk each other home. 

Do you want to ask me anything that I will answer online later?

Yeah. What do we mean individual to individual? 

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The first word that comes to my mind is lessons. We serve, if we allow it, as teachers to one another on a nearly constant basis. I don’t know if it’s due to my tendency for introspection or because I am not as evolved as others or what the reason may be, but I feel that I often come up short in my interactions with people. I have to be at my best to react kindly to the lifted-diesel-truck driver who cuts me off and then spews black exhaust into my face as he noisily accelerates away. And I have to be at my best to handle my neighbor who strikes the wrong chord in me with seemingly every new conversation. There are many examples I could use here, but, in short, I recognize that I often don’t do as well as I could. 

I also recognize that we mean the difference between a great or a tragic day. I am never happier than when someone responds to my kindness with kindness. I feel joy and light and a big smile comes over my face. And, in contrast, I rarely feel worse than when that kindness is responded to with apathy or rudeness. That disconnection really stumps me and I let that negative energy creep in. And then, my own feelings of failure at letting that not affect me stay with me for a long time. 

Each one of us can - and I suppose I feel like ‘should’ is a more appropriate word - help every other person we come into contact with. Holding the door, alerting someone of a dropped item, picking up the discarded paper towels collected at the base of the trash can in the bathroom, getting off the phone while in line at our coffee shop, donating a few extra bucks to a good cause, etc. - there are so many little ways we can show up for somebody else. And I believe that showing up in the small ways is really good practice for when we encounter a bigger opportunity. 

Alyson recommended I connect with Erin. In our first correspondence, she mentioned that we had previously met at a workshop with Mark Montgomery at Bend Community Healing. It must have been close to a year ago, but I remembered meeting her.

Amanda Stuermer

Rose Archer recommended Amanda to me, which is just one of the many things I have to be thankful to her for. When I asked Rose to think of some folks to refer me to, she mentioned Amanda’s name immediately. And we managed to just catch Amanda in her last window of availability before heading out on some extensive international travels. She welcomed me into her home and we seemed to connect instantaneously. I had the chance to briefly meet her husband and one of her sons and her trio of dogs and each of those interactions was quite warm and lovely. Amanda is dedicated and accomplished while maintaining humility - a rare and admiral combination of qualities. We don’t talk about it directly during the interview, but she is the founder of The World Muse, an organization focused on inspiring social change for women and girls.

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

That's such a funny thing to think about 'cause I think the obvious things - wife, mother, all these things - those are all in relation to somebody else. In relationship to my husband, I'm a wife; to my mother, I'm a daughter; to my children, I'm their mother; and even with work, I'm a non-profit leader or a writer. In some ways those are all ways that I'm defined by relationship I have with others. And I'm not sure I'm answering the question the way you want me to because I think it's hard when you turn it around and think, Who am I to me - in relation to myself? You know? And I think I'm still figuring that out. I think, at the core of who I am is, I'm a student; I just always want to keep learning. Each question kind of leads me to a different question, a lot of times, instead of to an answer. And I'm learning to accept that about myself. So, I'm a curiosity even to myself. A work in progress. A me in progress, maybe (laughs). 

What matters to you?

You don't start out with the easy ones, do you (laughs)?! Better to just dive right in. What matters to me is realizing that I'm here for a finite period of time and how can I make the most of that time? How can I figure out - like what we were talking about, our gifts - what my greatest gift is? And I don't know why I'm getting teary...  I guess 'cause I'm on the verge of a transition right now. Figuring out what my greatest gift is and how that can be of service to the good of all at this point and time in the world. That matters to me and it excites me. I think that's what we're all here to realize is what our gift is and how it can be of service to the good of all. And it terrifies me because I'm like, What if I never figure out what my gift is? Oh, my gosh! I've just been here fumbling around and I never found my gift! Oh, my god! And I think that is one of the things that happens when you realize you're half a century old. Talk about midlife - and I don't see it as a negative thing - but hopefully I'm at my midlife right now; that would be a wonderful thing to have another 50 years to figure out some more stuff. So, if I'm at the midpoint and I look back and it's like, I know I've learned a lot, but have I learned IT yet? Like, have I really gotten what my gift is and how I'm gonna share it? And that sort of scares me; that maybe I haven't and maybe I won't. But it is what matters to me most, I think, is that each one of us has that self-realization - you know, what we're here for and how we can use that. 

Is that the same thing that motivates you?

Yeah, I think that is what motivates me. I have this deep desire to realize my fullest potential. And I have that desire for others, as well. It's not all about me being here to recognize my fullest potential, but I do feel that when I recognize my fullest potential, it invites other people to recognize theirs. It's one of those things that can get kind of tossed around... Recognize your highest purpose and all that, but I really believe very deeply in that. I believe that's why we're here. I believe that's why we bump into each other from time to time; because we're here to help each other figure that out. And it's what motivates me to keep going; to feel like there's a purpose to all this stuff. It's not just, you know, another yoga class or another run with my dog - those are wonderful things, but what's the bigger purpose to this whole thing we call life? What motivates me is to try to figure out well, what am I learning from it and how can I teach others by learning? And how can that be something that helps all of us move forward, further down the path? 

What do you think we mean to each other on an individual basis? 

Like I was saying, I believe that each one of us serves as a teacher or a mirror for each of us. You know, everyone you run into and come into contact with. I feel like I do believe that it's intentional. I believe that we run into people - we meet people - at the times when we need to learn from them or to have something mirrored back to us. And so, I think we mean the world to each other, right? If I didn't see myself mirrored in you and I just had myself to try to figure all this stuff out from, that wouldn't be very interesting; I probably wouldn't get very far with it. There's that quote, Ram Dass - I might butcher it - We're all here just walking each other home. And I feel like that's kinda at the heart of it for me. We're all here, and sometimes it feels like it's random, but I feel like in reality we're all here to support each other and just walk each other home. And home is when we figure out who we really are. Or whatever - nirvana or whatever terminology you want to put on it, divine love, all of that stuff. But I think that's what we mean to each other; we're all helping each other get there. 

What does community mean to you?

Community... it's so interesting because it's kinda like what I was talking about... we're all here, I believe, to support each other's growth so that we can all serve the greater good. And that's what community is and that's what community does. And a lot of times when I think about community - and we talked about this earlier - I guess I see it as concentric circles. There's our family - a familial community that hopefully is a very loving and supportive one, but there are also always lessons and conflicts that come up from our familial community; and then we have our friends, which a lot of times are the family of choice - the people that we really choose to come in and support us; and then we have the people we work with, the people we're surrounded with, and our very physical community of Bend, Oregon, or wherever you're located; and then there are so many other communities beyond that, though. I want to build a community that's local and supportive and with friends and family, but I also get excited about those communities that are more abstract - just the community of people who are all trying to create positive change in the world, you know, light keepers some people might call them or people who are becoming more self-realized and trying to really activate their sense of purpose and their gifts in this world. There are all these different communities that we're a part of that we don't even realize that we're a part of, you know? Like people who love to jump out of airplanes - that's a community even if they don't all know each other. I love to travel 'cause it expands what I think community means. I realize, Oh, when I come into connection with you, into contact with you, we're in community and suddenly my community just gets like bigger and bigger. That can be scary, but it's also really exciting. And I think it is one of the big lessons in life - is to expand our sense of what community really means. I mean, it can be that really small, close-knit group of support, which is wonderful, but there are other definitions of it; there are broader... I ramble a lot (laughs). 

What do you have to say about individualism, about greed, a loss of values or a weakening of character? How does that all fit into things for you?

It's so interesting because I was just listening to this speaker earlier today and she was talking about, We're all love at our core, but we all have a different flavor, a different varietal of love. It's what makes you uniquely you and me uniquely me. And the way we figure out our individual shape, form, variety of love is we have to figure out the L 3. How we live, which is our values. And it's not that we can just say I value authenticity and integrity and resilience. If you really want to see how you live, you can't just state your values, you have to live your values. How are you living? Are you just stating that you value helping lift everyone up or are you actually going out and doing something to lift everybody up? Then the second one is how you love. And that's what your gift is and what your unique way of showing up in the world us. And then, how you lead. How you use what your gift is to better the world - you know, the impact you're gonna have. And I think when we talk about individualism versus community support... I think more of us need to ask ourselves those questions. How do I really live my values? How do I love? How am I finding my gift that I want to share with the world? And how do I lead? How am I sharing that? Because I think if more of us did that, then there would be less of that tendency to use our gift for the purpose of greed. Because if you're constantly leading from a place of How do I use my gift to help others? not just How do I use it to help me? Like if I was an amazing, gifted speaker and I could go on a speaking circuit and I could make... I mean really gifted, right... and I could just rake in a hundred thousand dollars for every speaking gig and I was just raking in the money, that would be using my gift, but it would be using my gift just to benefit me, right? But if I was a very gifted speaker and with every time, every gig that I booked there was a purpose behind it and there was something I gave back to and it was something that I believed in and I was sharing something that lifted other people up in some way, well then that's a way to use your gift in a positive way. I think more of us, collectively, need to figure that out. Gloria Steinem has this great quote, We have to recognize that we are linked and not ranked. And we live in a world that ranks people based on what they've acquired and all these other kinds of things. If we realize more that we're all linked, that my growth and my well-bing is linked to your growth and your well-being. And to the people I don't even know who are suffering on the border. We're all linked. We're never gonna get out of this scot-free unless we're recognizing that my actions.... are connected to what's happening to other people around the world. Right? Does that make sense? Again, I like to ramble. 

I'm experiencing a shift through the help of a lot of the people I've interviewed about what we should be standing for as opposed to against. So, what are you doing to support social justice?

I love that. I love, love, love that you've made that shift. We had this incredible speaker one of our first years at conference - Lynne Twist, she's amazing - and that's one of her big things is she talks about What do you stand for? And she explains that whenever you stand against something, you immediately create opposition - there's this immediate opposition. But when you stand for something, it's more of an invitation for other people to see what you value and to come on board. You're not immediately saying, I'm against that. It's like, No, I'm for this. It's not that I want to fight against injustice; I want to fight for, I want to stand for justice. I want to stand for all women and girls recognizing their potential to create positive change in their life and in their community and out in our world. And I believe that when I stand for all women and girls to realize that potential, that feels like my highest calling, so far in this life. Really helping women and girls recognize that. And I believe that when more women and girls realize that, more men and boys realize it, as well. I do believe in the adage that when you make the world a better place for women and girls, you make it better for everyone. It's just right now we're trying to balance things out a little bit because the world's not a very equitable place at the moment. In a lot of different realms. Everyone has their different piece to play. And I guess when you talk about how do I stand for social justice, my piece in it at this point has been working with women and girls specifically and that feels like that's where my greatest impact has been able to come through. And I've been really grateful for that. And I'm grateful that there are people who are working on, you know, specifically on poverty or hunger or immigration issues. They're all linked, all these issues, just like all of us as humans. They're all linked, but sometimes we each have to recognize like, I can't do all of it. How do I take my piece and handle my piece with the trust that you're handling this other piece and that we come together and we collaborate and we partner and we make sure that we're all working in support of each other's goals? Which is really exciting and it is one of the things I love about working in sort of a social justice field is that there is a lot of collaboration and a lot of partnerships. That's been a really a fun thing to witness and to be a part of. We need more energy in that sort of way of being together - working in collaboration and saying, No, I don't need to take all these pieces of the pie. I'm glad you have your piece of the pie. Let's just make sure our pieces jive together. It's coming from a place of abundance and going, Okay, we all have something that we can work on and if we all are working on our piece... there's an abundance of work for everyone and there's an abundance of good that can come from it and that can surround all of us.

I'm wondering how we can get to a place where everyone is working towards the core that the many different social justice movements share. What are your thoughts on that? 

My limited understanding that I have around it is that it's human evolution. We're getting there slowly, right? We're starting... more and more of us are recognizing that each of these different movements has validity. And we start looking for the common threads that run through all of them. And I think that at some point, hopefully, we will evolve to a point where we all can stand together and say, No, my need is no greater than your need is not greater than your need. But, I think, again, from my limited understanding, what's hard is that we have this history. We have this history of inequity across race, gender, all of it - all the things you just mentioned - and until we can... get everyone on the same level and then we can march forward together. But right now, we're not there. And I do think that's the ideal. I think more and more, it's happening. Like I said, with collaboration, I do think more and more of that's happening. I felt it really strongly at the Women's March on D.C. - the first women's march, the day after the inauguration - and you saw all these different people come in and you read the signs. They were there for various reasons. It was actually one of the criticisms you heard a lot about the women's march. Well, it was so convoluted because there were people there with Black Lives Matter and there were people there with LGBTQ rights and environmental activists and this, that, and the other. But what it felt like when we were all there is everyone felt very unified. Even if they were coming from a stream, you know, we were all flowing into the same ocean. And we were all mixing and mingling and moving forward together and that felt really amazing. Of course, it's not always that simple to keep that energy, but I do think there are moments when we do. I think when Obama was elected, we all came together around, in a positive way, around hope. And it was such a powerful moment to see. I think a lot of people came together. We just gotta figure out what's the next... who's got the message that enough people can get behind? And that's hard because we look to politicians a lot of time to be the ones to create those messages that we all get behind and I'm not sure they're the people that we need to be looking to for the answers at this point. I think we've created a system that doesn't work in that way. I think Obama was a very atypical politician in that way. Again, that's just my personal view of it. But it's gonna be hard to find someone who's in the political arena who can also be that sort of an inspirational, rallying voice. It's a pretty rare person who can play the political game and you know... So, we have to keep looking where it's gonna come from. There's so many amazing voices that are getting lifted up right now. The youth voices, they're just so incredible. Those Parkland students, I mean, when you listen to them speak out, it just gives me so much hope that we're starting to recognize that we have to speak up... If the voices in political power aren't saying the things that we need to hear to get behind, we gotta start listening to who is saying it and give them more power, I guess. 

What do you want more of in your life?

I want more curiosity. I love curiosity in me. I feel like we get stuck when we don't stay curious. And that we have to keep learning. Elizabeth Gilbert - I was reading something recently that she'd written and she said, The most interesting people are those who stay interested. And that hit me. You have to stay curious. So, I guess that's what I want more of is just more experiences that spark my curiosity. I think that when we're curious, we're more open to inspiration. That's when I think we get those ideas that move us on to whatever's next. That move us forward. I think that's individually and collectively in a way, right? I think when we as a human race are closed, like -This is just the way it is. It's the way it's always been. It's the way it is. We don't have anything else to learn. - we get stuck. But when we stay curious and we say, Well, how could this look? What would it look like if we did something different? What is around the corner that I haven't seen yet? What is a new power structure that we haven't even begun to realize yet? And that's part of my excitement about going over to London with my daughter, too, is that it's new. I don't really want to live in a city - I'm not really a city person - but for a small period of time, what a wonderful place to go and be curious and be open and learn and take in a different way of living and a different way of being in the world. You know, I'll come back a different person - the same person but a more evolved version of me. That's exciting. 

You have anything else you'd like to put out there? 

(Laughs) You know, I love what you're doing because I do believe human connection leads to compassion that leads to when we know each other we have a harder time doing something that's not in the best interest of each other. I think projects that help us to really bear witness to each other's lives lift us up in ways that you may not even realize as you're putting this project together. But you're creating pathways for people to bear witness to each other and to share their own stories and to be heard and seen and to hear from others and that just creates these ripples in a community that I think are really important. And my hope for Bend as Bend grows as a community, both in size and hopefully in depth of character, is that we have more projects like this so that we don't just grow in size; that we do grow in depth of character; that we do still have those values of a small town that, you know, Bend likes to pride itself on; of being friendly, and caring about each other, and knowing each other. I think these are the kind of projects that really inspire that. 

Do you have a question that you'd like to ask me that I'll answer online? 

What do you feel like your ultimate purpose for this project is? Not the first layer of it. What's your why, but three layers down (laughs)? 

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My ultimate purpose? Ultimate is a big word, but I’ll give you my best version of an answer now. I am compelled to do this project. I can’t find exact language around why, but I can say that I’ve been curious about people for as long as I can recall. Years ago, I introduced myself to a stranger every single day and photographed them on the street where we met. We would chat for as long as they were able and then I’d go home and write about our exchange. I was seeking commonality. I did that every day for 625 consecutive days and published the content daily. In the years between that project and this one, I’ve felt a void. Again, I am not sure what to call that void; a feeling, a compulsion, a draw, my purpose, maybe. 

As I look around, I see people either not engaging at all or engaging on the surface. How many conversations are necessary about the weather or office politics or the new restaurant? I catch myself doing it to, but I redirect right away. I ask people other questions. And I do that because I think the more I know about someone, the more I will like them. The less I will be concerned with their politics or their outfit or their religious beliefs. And I am finding that the more people I engage with and talk to and learn about, the easier it is becoming for me to assume the best about other people, too. This is helping me. And I am of the opinion that it will help other people. 

I have a natural proclivity for meeting people, an acquired skill for photographing them, and I am honing an interview style. And I have found inspiration in other projects that I’ve encountered; Studs Terkels’ book Working and Simon Hoegsberg’s The Thought Project, in particular. I understand that not everyone has this combination of skills and passion and others may not have the desire to approach people in this way. So, I’m doing the work and providing it for whoever is willing to spend some time exploring it. I hope that meeting these people vicariously through me will encourage others to engage with the folks they encounter in their daily routine. Or, at the least, begin to give people the benefit of the doubt. The more we know about each other, the more smiles we give, the more help we offer, the more gaps we can bridge, and the more wounds we can heal. That will lead to feeling better, breathing easier, finding peace easier to access, forgiving, and many other forms of growth and progress. My ultimate goal is for this to contribute to a movement and become a contagion that will positively alter the course of the future. Of course, I’d love for it to be sustainable, too.

Courtney Christenson

I owe Carol a huge thank you for introducing me to Courtney as we had a really lovely time together. It will likely not be our only visit and I am already looking forward to the next. We chatted in her kitchen for a short time, surrounded by her daughters and their neighbor friends and the productive sound of renovation work coming from the other side of the house. We eventually made our way into Courtney's work space and dove into some very great conversation. After over an hour of chatting, I had to insist on firing up the recorder - and the beautiful interview below is the result. Courtney's perspective is so refreshing and provides us all with an example of the grace and compassion we should be striving to interact with. There are nuggets upon nuggets of wisdom below, so I hope you enjoy. Interested in hearing more from Courtney? She is actively working on a new project. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

My name is Courtney Christenson and I am a writer and activist - I think I would call myself, actually. How would I describe myself? I would actually probably fall back on the way other people describe me, which is probably passionate and driven. I believe very deeply in things. And I believe very deeply that we can make a difference in issues that matter to us. So, I've dedicated my life to helping people make a difference in the things that they care about and discover what those things are in the first place. 

What matters to you? 

That's a good question. I think what matters most to me is that people are living in such a way - and that I, myself, am living in such a way - that we have a positive impact on the people around us and the planet. I just think it's easy to go through life and accidentally have negative impact on every one and every thing. Because I think the way that our world is set up right now... if passivity leads to negative outcomes - in American culture in particular - even if you just go with the flow, you're still gonna have a really negative impact, unintentionally, on people in the world and on the planet itself. So, I think the thing that matters to me most is that we think a little bit more about that and we are more intentional about the impact that we're having. Both on the small scale - on the every day impact that we have on our family, on our children, on the people that we interact with from the barista at the coffee shop to the people that we see in the grocery store - to a much bigger impact of how we buy and how we live and how we dispose of our waste and all of these things and the much greater impact that that has on the world around us. So, I think what matters most is being intentional about the impact that we have. 

Where does that care come from? 

I think it comes from two things. I think the first is kind of innate to who I am. I think that there is... I'm driven to do something bigger than myself. And I'm not entirely sure where exactly that comes from, but it's just who I am. I think that the second piece of that is I spent a lot of years trying to ignore the fact that I care about these things and it led me to a place that was really dark. I tried to live the way I was supposed to live for eight years. And - I have two little kids - and I tried to do all the things that I was supposed to do and, at the end of the day, it felt so meaningless in so many ways and I didn't understand why I was waking up every day to do these things. I was like, What does it matter? In 20 years... if I've done this for the next 20 years, what do I have to show for it? I have my kids, but they're not gonna be that awesome (laughs) because it's just like so very baseline. It's just keeping them alive and it's making sure they have the right clothes and it's making sure they have the right opportunities and it's not actually creating people that I will want to be around. So, I think trying to ignore that sense of purpose and that sense of these are just the things I'm passionate about - things I'm interested in - and I tried to ignore it for a long time and fell apart. And I think we all have those things. And I think they're different for everyone - what it is that we can't not do. But I think we've all got something that we can't not do. And I think those are the things that if we pursue them, we'll not only be happier and more fulfilled, but we'll also make an actual difference in the world. Rather than trying to shove those things down - whatever it is that gives us a sense of purpose or, I don't know, a sense of whatever we feel called to, for lack of a better word. So, I don't know if that's a good answer, but that's my answer. 

Why is there reward for the way your "supposed" to live versus living in a more intuitive or productive or passionate way? Do you have a theory? 

Yeah. The system as it is (laughs) has no value for people. Because of the way the system is set up, people are assigned value according to their economic value. And so, our humanity actually has no value in the current system unless you have dollars to back it up. And so, because of that, our system needs (laughs) you for your money. And so, it dehumanizes you. And it strips you away of all your meaning and your purpose beyond your economic contribution. And not only does that create an emptiness inside of us because we know that we're more than our money - we feel that - but there is nothing in the world that actually assigns value to us beyond our money or beyond a commodified use. Whether it's likes on social media or something like that, but that's also just monetized, right? They need your likes in order to get more money. And when you boil people down to their economic contribution it's gross on a lot of levels and it also just feels terrible. And so, we try to mask that by fixing it, by getting more things that feel valuable or make us feel valuable, but that just requires more money. And so, we're contributing more into this system that continues to devalue us trying to find more value, but we're just further devalued. So, it's this really awful system that's a lose-lose for us and a win-win for sort of the economic machine - large corporations and things like that - the very few that benefit from it. But really it just strips us away of everything that makes us human. It strips us away of everything that really makes us feel valuable and feel meaningful. The only way, then, to recapture - to take back - that value is to find it elsewhere. And I think that value lives inside of us and the thing that gives us purpose - we all have that thing - and so, if we can find it and pour our resources into developing that thing - whatever it happens to be that we are passionate about - that's when we start to feel re-humanized. And it's when we start to see the humanity of others, too, is when they're doing their thing. Those are the people that we admire - the people who are full of value outside of their economics. So, by investing more into those things it gives more value back. It's a win-win. And it not only changes us, but it changes the world around us and the people around us. 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

Hmmm. That has a lot of depth. I know what we could mean to each other and what I think we ought to mean to each other. I think humans and our fellow people are the fullest expression - when they're healthy people... even when they're not healthy, maybe - of beauty, maybe, of meaning. Is what we could be to one another. I don't think that's what we are to one another at this point. Again, there's very little economic value to relationship. And I think that's why we tend to devalue it as a culture. But there's so much meaning and purpose and transformation. You get to know yourself by knowing others and there's a lot of value in that. There's a lot of meaning in that. And by experiencing someone else, you get to experience more fully the world because we are all a reflection of our story, of our past, of our experiences. And those things shape us and so they're transformative. We are transformative, valuable, value-adding things - I think people are what make life meaningful, purposeful, and valuable. 

What does community mean to you?

I think community is finding other people who value you for who you are and finding other people who you value for who they are. And I think it's recognizing the best in each other and culling that further out and challenging the parts that are less valuable, less meaningful, maybe less true. And so, a community is a group of people who build up what needs building up in the really beautiful parts of who you are and they help you heal from the parts that are broken and they help you move past the parts that aren't helpful. And they, thus, make you a more beautiful person and you make them more beautiful and that's how the world changes. 

What concerns you?

I think the emptiness of people and the way that that's exploited and becoming worse is the most concerning thing to me. It's like a kind of poverty. I think in America - and I can really only speak to American culture because it's my culture - there is a poverty of soul that is deeply concerning to me. A poverty of personhood that isolates us into me and mine and me first and isolates us from true community, which is what we're talking about, right? And becoming more and more isolated and then finding your value in things - in consumeristic pursuits - it just makes us emptier and emptier and emptier. And when we're empty, we don't have resources; we can't possibly invest in those around us. We can't possibly pour anything out into anyone else because we are so devalued by everything around us. We're devalued by people around us and then we're devalued by ourself and it creates this poverty - of mindset, of culture, of soul, of experience, a poverty of community, of belonging. It's all the things that matter; it's all the things that lead to change; it's all the things that give us purpose, so then there's also a poverty of purpose. And the emptiness spirals. So, I think that's, to me, the most concerning thing and it's the thing that has to change if we want a more equitable world. 

We're becoming more and more reminded of the different social injustices. Why do you think social justice has to be a thing to work towards? Why aren't we living in it? 

You know, I think there's several ways to answer this question. Part of the issue, honestly, is human nature. For our own survival, right, we are tribal beings. And part of being a tribe is knowing who's in and who's out because you need to know who to fight with and who to fight against. And so, our basic understanding of who's in and who's out requires humanizing some people and dehumanizing other people. And this is just basic human psychology - we need to know who's in and we need to know who's out. And that's created a hierarchy over time. Right? Of who has power. And it's much more comfortable to say you're out and you're in than to say everyone's in - we're in it together. And we have the technology now to be that way - to say we're in this together - but we're fighting against human psychology and we're fighting against power. We're fighting against the fact that there is an unequal distribution of power and in order to create a just society, the people with power are gonna have to give some of that up or we're gonna have to take it from them (laughs) and neither of those are pleasant. Because once you have power, equality can feel like oppression. Right? So, we're not there because power has been taken. And power has been taken, I think originally, because it was just part of life and then we have created ways to justify that unequal distribution of power over the centuries. And it's often done with religion; it's often done with race; it's often done with gender. It's easier and safer to - and it's more natural, maybe - to fight for your own well-being and to maintain your own well-being because worrying about someone else's well-being is expensive; it's costly in all the ways that matter to us. It costs time; it costs resources; it costs energy; it costs money. To worry about someone else's well-being, it's just easier to maintain the power and our own well-being. And the only way that you're gonna be willing to expend those resources on other people is if you are filled up yourself with value for yourself and value for them. But with the poverty of soul that we have here, there is no resources left to say, You are just as important as I am. We're empty of those values; we're empty of that purpose. And so our purpose becomes get more and perpetuate my own well-being; get more power and get more money. And it's the individualistic nature of our society. The power structures of our society not only allows that, but actually validates it; justifies it. We're even in a place - and I think maybe this is changing - where it's not only what is done to maintain power, but for a lot of people, it feels right. And to not uphold those power structures feels wrong. And that's how twisted things have become. That's where the poverty has really done a number on us. And that's where the tribal mentality also maintains that - of, It would be wrong to betray my tribe to help them. It's only when you expand those borders and say, There is no us and them; there's only we. And my well-being is wrapped up in your well-being. And I can't be well while I'm harming you. And you can't be well while I'm harming you. And so, the only way to stop is for me to give up. And, again, that's expensive and we don't have the resources - mentally, emotionally, spiritually maybe - to be willing. And even we ought to be eager to make a world that's more just, but it feels like oppression to the people in power.

Instead of removing power, is it possible to just redefine it? And I'm also wondering if there's much difference between Us vs. Them and Me vs. We and if the Me people are going to be upset with the We people coming together. 

You know what's interesting? I actually think that even the Me people - they have a tribe; they're not alone. No one's actually alone. So, I had an interesting experience... it must have been in April. I went to a NRA event here in town. There was an NRA foundation gala. And some people were protesting it. And I decided to engage with it differently. This was my third attempt to engage in a protest in a different way. Because I just don't feel like it's very productive, often times. I have no problem with protesting or demonstrations, but I think there surely has to be a more sort of constructive way to go about opposing things. So, I went to try to talk to people - to engage the people at this event 'cause I wanted to understand them. I was like, My perception of them is one thing, but if that's actually the truth, I don't know why they'd be here. So, I think I'm misunderstanding them. And I think they think that I'm against them. So, let's go have a conversation - see if we can find common ground. Because everything in culture is telling me that I can't find common ground with these people and I take that as a challenge. (Laughs) If someone tells me something's impossible, I'm like, Oh, watch me! So, I showed up at this event with a table with a sign that was like, Here to listen. Come talk to me. Tell me why you're here. And it took a little while. The protestors were really upset that I was there and made me move away from them. Which was kind of sad; that kind of bummed me out. But they were like, Well, if you're not with us, then you're against us. And I was like, But what if we're all together? And they weren't having that. So, I talked to three people - men, all of them - that were at this event. And it was really interesting; they all thought that we were enemies. They thought I hated them; which I do not. I don't even know them. And the first guy that walked up, he came up super angry. I'm big into non-violence and non-violent communication. So, he came up yelling at me and I was like, Hey, I'm just here to listen. And he was like, What? No, why are you here?! And I was like, No, I just want to understand. I'm just here to listen and understand. And he goes, You're shitting me. And I was like, Nope. And he goes, No one does that. And I was like, I know! But I do. Will you help me understand where you're coming from? And his whole demeanor changed. Whole thing. His name was Johnny. He was a rancher. And he felt like the NRA was the only one that had his back. And he's, you know, the America first type of guy. And I think a lot of us see people who say things like that and he, you know, for all intents and purposes, has a lot of power - socially, economically - and you would perceive him as someone who's maybe trying to maintain power structures and maybe as a me first kind of guy. But he has a we. Right? He is just trying to find his people. And so am I. And, actually, we had a lot in common. And when we got down to it, we agreed on more than we disagreed. And that shocked him. It shocked me, quite frankly. But, at the end of it, he could not walk away and say, All people on the left are evil. They hate us. He can't say that 'cause he met me. And I didn't hate him. And I'm not evil, by most accounts. There isn't an Us and there isn't a Them. It feels like it, but that's not reality. It's just... you have to wake up and see that reality because that's not how it feels most days. And I think the only way to do that is in person. It's to re-humanize the other through conversation by shaking hands, by telling him about my kids and him telling me about his grandkids. 'Cause that's why he was doing that. He was like, I'm afraid my land's gonna get taken away because, in this country, if you don't have guns, you can't protect your lands. Look at what happened to the Indians. Which is an odd argument and I never would have expected it from him, but he was concerned about that. And you know, it was one of things where it was like, Well, we both want a country where that can't happen. How can we make that happen? By shifting, you kind of re-spin the social set-up. And it's so disorienting that you have to find a new place to land. And I think that's really important - to disorient people. Because we all live in our bubbles where everything makes sense. And it's Us vs. Them and they're the problem and we're the answer. It's just not true.

What do you want more of in your life?

I want... hmmm... what do I want more of in my life? I want to spend more time on people and things that matter and less time and energy and money on things that don't. And I want to surround myself with other people who want that same thing. 

Do you have anything else you'd like to put out there?

I think the only thing that I would say is that the only place to start change when you feel overwhelmed or when you don't know where to start is with what's right in front of you. Whatever skills and gifts you have, whatever resources you have in front of you. If it's a camera - for me, it was a camera and it was a keyboard - whether it's connections, whether it's dance, whether it's art, whether it's construction, I don't care. Start with what you're good at or what you care about and just go deeper into it. Take a step towards it and then take another step towards it. Away from what you don't care about and toward what you do. 'Cause I think that's where change lives. 

I'm tempted to try an experiment. Would you like to ask me a question that I'll answer in writing after the interview? 

Sure. Okay. Let's try it. In a perfect world, what change would happen because of your work?

---

Hey, Courtney. Thanks for your question.

In a perfect world, I might not be all that necessary, as this project might come across as mundane and completely unnecessary. But, in this world, ideally, I would like for people to begin to get out of this what I get out of it. These interviews remind me of the things that the greater WE have in common. They are reminding me of what we share. And they are shining a light onto my own shortcomings and highlighting the areas of my life that I need to work on. These lessons present themselves to me in business dealings, in traffic, in line at the grocery store, while I'm waiting for someone else to pump my gas (something I am still very confused by here in Oregon), and in myriad other ways. There is room for improvement in my compassion, my empathy, my patience, etc. I hope that as more and more people encounter this project they will begin to find their own connections in their daily lives; that each of us will become less another thing that happens to us and more an experience and a potential friend and something to be cherished. There are too many days for me to count that someone's simple act of kindness has been the thing to give me the hope that it's not so bad as it seems. 

A few weeks ago, I went to a local park called Good Dog with my dog and my partner. It was on the Solstice and we wanted to do something intentional that evening. So we made some tasty food at home and then went out to the woods to watch nighthawks - this really cool bird that performs all kinds of acrobatics. A number of people walked by and commented on our cozy scene and we engaged in a few conversations. Then, as night was falling, we made our way back to the car and discovered that one of the women we had chatted with left a little package containing her business card and a dog treat on my car. He card had her cell number on it, so I sent her a message the next morning. She later wrote me back and thanked me for thanking her, essentially, and said that I was the only one to do so as of yet. Okay... so that left me feeling pretty heavy. What has happened to us that we can't even send a text message to thank someone for their act of kindness? 

I am loaded with shortcomings, so I don't mean to preach. But our relationships are the only thing we have. They are much more important than our car or our bike or our new outfit or our job or our address and on and on. We have to start paying more attention. I make this project to remind me and everyone who will ever encounter it of that. 

I owe Carol a huge thank you for introducing me to Courtney as we had a really lovely time together. It will likely not be our only visit and I am already looking forward to the next.

Rose Archer

I used to tell folks that the interview process would take about an hour, but that is proving to no longer be the case. I should change my pitch as it occasionally goes well over that mark. For example, I spent four hours with Rose! We talked in her kitchen over a very tasty homemade smoothie. Then we chatted in her backyard, serenaded by the birds and the neighbor's welding project. We later moved into her living room for the recording portion. And, finally, out into her front yard for the photos. And I can assure you we were not just talking about the weather. I am so grateful to Casey for connecting us together. Rose offered me nugget after nugget of inspiration, hope, and encouragement and told me many powerful stories about her journey through this life. I hope you'll get a sense of the power and impact in our conversation as you read or listen below. Rose has wonderful things in store. Keep your eyes out. 

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Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I think my biggest, I guess, unique thing is people would say that, She's a chef. It's a very predominant part of my life as it was my career for a very long time, but also it's my hobby. So, when I'm with my friends, there's often cooking food, farmers markets - things like that. So, I would say I'm a chef. But I'm also a mom to an amazing seven-year-old boy and I'm a wife to my husband and a friend. But, if I had to talk on a little bit of a deeper level, who I really am is a connector. I think we're here for connection on this planet and so I'm a connector. I like to connect in everything that I do. I'm a connector. 

What matters to you?

Oh, gosh. I would say the number one thing that matters to me is connection. Obviously, I just kind of said that. But what goes hand in hand for connection, with me, is healing. I think that one of the biggest downfalls in the world today is the amount of wounding that we're all carrying. And so, when we're wounded and we don't heal, we pass on that wounding to the next generation and to everyone we're in contact with. And so, what matters to me most is healing and, therefore, then you're able to connect. I think that true connection happens when you can heal. 

Where does your motivation come from?

I think I've always been a very active, involved person. I'm super passionate when I get excited about something, I kind of go all the way. And I grew up in a large, dysfunctional family with a ton of wounding and I lived my life for a very long time very wounded, personally. And, about ten years ago, I began a healing journey and that healing journey has transformed my life. I know that when I experience something that is so transformative, I want everyone that I come into contact with to also have that opportunity. And so, I'm very motivated by sharing that experience and wanting everyone to just be as healthy as they can be. And I say healthy rather than happy. I think there's this expectation of happiness and then if people aren't happy then they're like, Oh, I'm not happy and I should be. But I think that if you are only looking for the emotion of happiness, then you're discounting all the other emotions, which are each equally valuable to the full life experience. And so, I'm not only looking to be happy; I'm looking to feel emotions deeply and to feel deeply connected to those around me. All of the emotions. And that one is not necessarily better or worse than the other and there's value in the quietness, the stillness, the melancholy, the sadness, the grieving, the exuberance, the passionate joyfulness, and the happiness. There's benefit in all aspects of it. And to become depressed because you're not happy is... I don't know, there's just something that doesn't fit there for me. 

What do we mean to each other, individual to individual? 

Well, I'm gonna end up sounding woo-woo eventually at some point in this interview, so I'm just gonna bring it on (laughs). I truly believe that our souls have many lives. I do believe that I've had many lives. I'm believe I'm gonna have many more. I believe this is merely one physical body that I am inhabiting for this lifetime. And I believe that souls are hear to learn and heal and that we need each other to do our healing and our learning from. And that on some level, in some way, we have chosen the players in this lifetime to do our healing and our work through and with and so, I believe I chose my parents; I believe my son chose me; I believe I chose my husband; I believe I chose you to sit across on this day, this afternoon, and exchange words and energy and healing and thoughts with to learn from. And so, I think that we mean everything to our soul's purpose in this particular lifetime. 

What does community mean to you? 

I believe that when we're in community we are leaning in so much closer out of necessity for survival and not just physical survival of our bodies and our, you know, eating, or clothing or keeping warm, but in our survival of our souls - that we are really supporting each other and being there for all members. And that by leaning in, we're really able to connect and see the suffering of another. And it's really hard to hate somebody from really close up because you see their humanity and you see all the interplay of how similar you actually are. And, in community, you can be seen and you can see another. And I think that, historically, the need for physical survival manifested the situation where people lived in tight-knit usually circles together. You know, American Indian villages were a ring of tipis very close together, which was good for safety, for heat, for resource-sharing. And there was a communal kitchen in the middle - all food resources were shared together. And they did that out of necessity of survival, but what manifested was a connection to each other. If a husband was wounded and killed, that mother and her children were not left alone; they stayed in that community and they were provided for and she was protected and her children were raised along with all the other children. And it was so much easier to really see when someone was suffering and had a need because they were right there within your own community. And so, therefore, that suffering and that need didn't turn into devastation and isolation and depression and aloneness and starvation - because it was right there. 

Community, for me, is about proximity of physical being, but also about proximity of being in each other's energetic space. It's about love. It's about connection. It's about, you know, we all have these circles around us, of our immediate circle that we would do anything for. That phone call in the middle of the night that you would literally do whatever for this person. And you can probably think of the people in your head that you would do that for right now. You know, my son, my husband, my very best friends - no matter what, I would be there for them in a heartbeat. If they went homeless, they could move in with me - kind of energy. But not everybody in our world has a circle around them that they're included in that kind of a safety net. And so, when they do go homeless, there's not a house for them to go to; there's not a safety net to hold them. And as long as all of us go through our lives only being willing to care that much about our immediate circle because we happen to be close to them, we know them, we're blood relation or friendship relations, then people fall through the cracks in our community. 

So, I have this theory that we all need to be willing to do whatever it takes - obviously for our immediate - but to have another layer outside of that circle that encompasses and covers the people who are not covered by their own circle because they just don't have it. So that they don't fall through the cracks. And what does that look like? What could that look like? And for me, it looks like, Do you have a room in your house where someone could stay temporarily between rentals in your community? If you were to lose your house, I don't know you that well, but I know that you're safe around my child and my husband and you were between houses for a month, would I be willing to let you stay in my house and I don't know you that well? The answer is yes. Do I have more clothes than I need and I find out a woman in my neighborhood is going on a job interview - am I willing to give her some of my clothes? Yes, yes I am. Like, it's about saying I'm willing to use the resources that I have to help people like they were my very best friends and my family - that I would do without even thinking if they needed it - am I willing to do that for someone that I don't know? For someone outside my immediate circle? So that they're covered, too? Because if they're not covered, then what are we doing? Then they're falling through the cracks. Then they're homeless. Then they're in homeless shelters. Then children are being raised in camps on the side of the road. And we're proliferating wounding. Is that a super long answer (laughs)?

I'm thrown off by pervasive individualism and greed. I'm very opposed to this. But sometimes I wonder who am I to say that this other way that I feel, with my morals and values, is the more correct way? What is the individualism and the greed about? 

I have something to say about that. I think that when people are wounded, they're looking for salves. They're looking for a way to make themself feel better. And marketers know that. And so they come out with literally advertisements that make you feel like shit about yourself so that you'll buy their product. You know, the spray of the man who all the women are fawning over and it literally is a spray that has pheromones in it that women will be attracted to you. And I'm just thinking about the man who is at home, who feels unattractive, who feels alone, who wishes women noticed him, and seeing that, buying into that, and buying that product. And I think that 90% of the products that are available to us are sold with this underlying undertone of You're not enough. You'd would be enough or you'd be more close to enough if you bought our product. And I truly believe that if we got healing that we would see that we are enough just as we are. And the desire to purchases and to have... the yacht?! What is that about? That is one big ego boost for somebody who has some very large interior belief that they are not enough just as they are. And I'm not saying it would not be super fun to spend a week on a yacht in the Caribbean, but there is a part of all of that opulence and that grandeur and that stuff... 

You know, I walk into a place like Hobby Lobby and I'm like, That looks like one nine-month-later garage sale where everything is ten cents. It's junk. It is absolute junk. It looks like a warehouse in China where everything's made for 99 cents and then we're over here selling it for $9.99 and literally nine months from now we're gonna be selling it for a dollar in our driveway. Like, it's junk. And this need for stuff fills our need for ourself. And this incredible writer, Geneen Roth, says, You can never have quite enough of what you don't really want. And I believe we keep buying and buying and buying stuff to try to fill ourselves, but that's not really what we want. And so there's never gonna be enough. So we're gonna just keep buying it. And I think it comes right back down to healing. The healthier I get, the more I know that I'm enough, the more I realize what's really important: which is connection, which is healing, which is people, which is relationships. Then I'm looking to make purchases that facilitate that. Like, do I need a longer table for my deck so that I can have 12 people over for dinner? Like, that's a purchase that facilitates connection, inclusivity, and people coming over. You know, beginning to make choices based on that filter of, Does it bring me more of what I do really want? And I think that if people had healing they'd buy a whole lot less shit. 

On the opposite of what matters to you question, what concerns you?

Oh my gosh. Child abuse. Child abuse concerns me. Because child abuse turns into an adult who's so wounded that their survival mechanism is usually more wounding of other people. And I think child abuse is my biggest heart-breaker. And it concerns me how much has gone on historically, you know, for thousands of years, and how much continues to go on to this day. And how we have not found a solution for it. We haven't found enough of a remedy for it. I feel like the advancements we've made towards stopping child abuse have been miniscule. And it really is this cycle, right; most people who abuse children were abused themselves. So most children who are abused, supposedly, become our next round of abusers. So, the way to stop child abuse is to heal adults who are abusing, so they'll stop abusing and the next... we get healthier by generation and not sicker. So, I would say child abuse concerns me because it infiltrates everything. You know? I think Trump was severely abused. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

(Laughs) I do. I have a ridiculous amount of a sense of purpose. And I pretty much have such a sense of purpose that I'm not interested in doing anything unless it's on purpose. Anymore. At all. Of any kind. I'm really excited that even though I feel like I know what my purpose is today, with the project I'm about to launch and how I'm showing up in my community today, I also know that I have no idea what my purpose is going to be throughout the rest of my life and that I am going to be shown what my next purpose is and the next level or the next project or the next focus of my attention is going to be. So, I don't feel like it's something that's stagnant. I don't feel like we have one purpose in our lifetime that then you hunker down and just do that one thing. I think that my purpose is to live on purpose. And if I'm living on purpose, then I'm making choices about what I'm gonna connect with and do and manifest. And, you know, the job I'm gonna have that's gonna earn my money is gonna be on purpose and, therefore, it's going to do immeasurably good in the world and I'm going to be fulfilled by doing it. And then I might be done with that. And then I might move on to the next thing I'm called to, if it's on purpose. But that it will always be of service to my own healing first and healing of others second. 

What do you want more of in your life?

(Sigh) I want more collaboration. I've been working on this project for two years now; we're about to launch. But there's a lot of long days at my computer, which is the opposite of how I like to work. And I cannot wait until the project, the company, is profitable enough that I can have a team of people that I work with to be in true collaboration. Because I get jazzed up when I connect with others in a really unique, uplifting way, and I'm looking forward to working with people who are also on their purpose and to manifest a workplace where people are there because it's on purpose for them; it's not just a job. So, I want more connection in my life. Certainly in the work arena; I have a lot of connection in my personal friendships and my family, but I want more work collaboration. 

Do you have a few words to say about your project?

Sure. So, I'm a chef - I said that at the beginning - and I have been working for two and a half years to launch a website called TrueYouFood.com. And it is a learning-to-cook whole, real foods website. We filmed 120-something cooking videos, teaching people how to cook with whole, real foods. My primary focus, initially, is marketing it to people who have had weight-loss surgery because they're at a huge shift in their life where they've spent most of their lives eating processed foods and then they have this life-changing surgery, but they have to begin eating whole, home-cooked meals pretty much as soon as they get home from the hospital and they don't know how to do that. So, marketing it to them because of the great need that's out there for them. And really wanting to show up for them after they've just shown up for themselves in a huge way. I'm super-passionate about people eating in ways that nourishes their body, in ways that tell their body that they matter, that they're paying attention to it, that they love it. And I think eating whole, real foods is a way to do that. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

I think because this project is called A Community Thread, something that I love is seeing the connection from one interview to the next interview; you know, how you got to the person that you're interviewing. I just think it's such a cool thing that you're doing because I have this belief that if we could be out in outer space looking back at the Earth that there'd be this huge net, you know, and that all of us are on that net as human beings. And the entire net has these intersecting crosses where the fabric of the net crosses each other to create it and that every single one of us is a little, tiny X on that net. And so, you and I, our lines just crossed today for the first time. We met for the first time. But essentially that entire net is connected in some way. And so, your thread is literally like a thread on that net around the world. And you're making all of these connections, but really giving people an opportunity to hear a story - words, depth, truth, an opinion - from somebody else who's on that net with them. So, I think it's really neat you're doing this. So, thank you. 

I used to tell folks that the interview process would take about an hour, but that is proving to no longer be the case. I should change my pitch as it occasionally goes well over that mark. For example, I spent four hours with Rose!

Dorothy West

Throughout this interview, you will likely notice a number of longer-than-usual pauses between questions. And that is because I am processing what Dorothy just said. I don't know that I've ever had so many revelatory moments in a single conversation before. Casey recommended Dorothy to me and she promptly and happily accepted and invited me into her home. We got into real talk right away and, after quite some time, I had to insist that we do the interview for fear that Dorothy might have to repeat herself for the interview. And then after the interview, we dove right back into it. I probably should have just left the recorder on because I found much of our continued conversation to be profound. Dorothy gifted me with her wonderfully unique and refreshing perspective and I will do my absolute best to keep a firm hold on her words of encouragement. She is a life coach... should you be looking for one.

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

I am a conscious creator. I was not always; I grew up on the cultural prescription for what life is supposed to look like. And, luckily, about midway through an average lifetime, I recognized that that was an illusion and that I could and do create my own reality. That changed everything from even the way I'm answering your question; it changed everything. So, there's the personal responsibility of knowing I create my own reality and the liberation - knowing that I can state my own purpose and attend to it and not be attached to anything that's not. Beyond that, I mean, I can tell you the roles - I fill lots of roles. But who am I? I'm a conscious creator. 

What matters to you?

The highest possible frequency that we can move through day to day - that's what matters to me. I think people are our big, untapped resource. I think that relationships provide our evolution. And when we walk by each other without recognizing that, it's a big waste. That when two or more of us talk about something other than appearances, we start to tap into the potential of raising the frequency and living as all that we are as opposed to this teeny tiny percentage of that. So, people matter most to me. I think when we explore the value in our relationships and in our potential, everything else gets handled. When we're looking at each other as valuable and all the potential of contribution, stuff like our relationship with the planet, our relationship with the future - all that gets handled. Once I know you, I don't want to hurt you. Once I know who you are and what your gifts are, I just want to support you. 

What does community mean to you?

Community, to me, means that we're actually intentionally living together. So that what's good for you is good for me is good for everybody. I actually moved across the country to have that - to participate in an intentional community. It takes the focus off personal benefit and puts it on relationships, on supporting each other, and not being so isolated. 

What concerns you?

I don't focus a lot of my attention on what I don't like, so I can answer the question by looking at where I think I could have impact. Big impact, for me, is an evolution of the education system. Where the message is delivered early that we're unique, powerful creators with contribution to make. Not pegs that need to try and fit into predrilled holes. Along those same lines, art of all kinds - personal expression and art of all kinds - as much as possible for as much of the day as possible for every child everywhere. I don't really care if it's sidewalk chalk or something structured in a classroom, but that personal expression that's an art form being introduced early with a lot of plentiful time and resources and space. I think a lot of the resistance that we find is our resistance to being prescribed the expectation that we're gonna show up a particular way. I think that's what we're resisting - globally, that's what we're resisting. And I think if we just open that up and give everybody space to express who they really are, it would take care of most of the resistance that we're finding. When we feel seen and appreciated, it makes it easier for us to love and care for others. So, yeah, give a kid a crayon. (Laughs) When you ask a little kid what they think about something... I think more of that; asking everybody what they think and what they see instead of delivering a message that there's an expectation that's outside of you for you to fulfill. And that's across the board - that's all of us. But certainly I see the biggest potential of talking to children that way - like that they have great wisdom inside and we want to know what that is. 

Social injustices have a central theme of inequality. What's going to be the thing to bring people together to focus on the root of that problem instead of working on the many forms it takes? And what's your role in that?

I love the question! Okay, my first answer is that if we talk more about what we want and less about what we don't want, we find more commonality. It becomes more broad and, at the same time, more specific; it's for everyone and it's the same thing. So, I think the first thing is to stop fighting something and be for something. I don't know if that's enough of an answer to the part of your question, but I'm happy to circle back if it isn't. What's mine to do is to refuse to give my focus or my attention or anything of mine to anything I don't want. So, I will not participate in anything that's a fight against something. But I'm happy to participate in something that's for what I want. The other piece of that is as long as we name an enemy, we're continuing to create a right and wrong polarity - us and them. To think that there is someone who's not effected by the suffering of someone else - that's an illusion. If there is suffering, we are all effected. So, you might get out of your lifetime believing that you weren't effected, but you were. And certainly anybody you left behind will continue to be effected. You know, I had a great conversation with one my - I have three amazing, brilliant sisters and one of them - we were having this conversation about what does it mean to be born a white woman in the '50s? There is an inherent privilege to that. And what are we gonna do with that? And she and I talk about that often - about how do you leverage that kind of privilege that was unearned, certainly, in this lifetime. And I think that's a big piece of it. I think that it's easy for us to talk about what we don't have or we don't have yet and marginalize our rank - whatever that is; somewhere in your life, every one of us, somewhere there's rank - and if you can own it and take responsibility and leverage your rank for the benefit of everyone, most of that crap goes away. Sorry, that makes me feel a little emotional. 

[Post interview, I brought up the use of this word privilege. I've come to develop a seemingly unpopular perspective on this word, which I will share with you. Hopefully I can put the words to it to accurately explain what I mean. I see the word privilege as meaning an extra benefit or a surplus or a more than. The "white male" is often the target this word gets thrown at. 'White males are privileged.' When I hear that, it doesn't resonate with me because it seems to me that white males are getting the treatment that everyone else deserves. And I don't see it as a privilege to get the baseline. So, in talking about it in that way, we are actually doing a disservice to everyone who doesn't get the same, basic, deserved-by-all treatment. I don't think anyone is advocating for taking things away from white males. It seems to me that people are just wanting the same treatment. Equality. Equity. Fairness. So, we will be better served and will more quickly correct the situation if we start righting the wrongs of mistreatment and disadvantages. Dorothy's use of the word "rank" made a lot of sense to me. One's rank varies. And we can and should use our rank responsibly.]

Do you have a sense of purpose?

I do! (Laughs) My purpose is to raise the frequency on the planet. And sometimes that's easy as a smile and sometimes that's tearing my hair out to get the words just right in something I'm gonna put out. And sometimes it's speaking when it feels a little risky. But that's my purpose - to raise the frequency. It's to share with every person I come across that you are a creator. You have value in you to express. And if you take your focus off of money for just 24 hours, you get in touch with it faster (laughs). 

Where does your motivation come from? 

I'm liberated from the belief that I'm just a human being. I believe I'm a spiritual being having a physical experience. That's not original (laughs). And I'm cognizant of that. So, I don't want to waste any of my lifetime. And by waste, I mean if I've got repetitive thoughts - that tape running in my head - that feels like a waste to me. So, I want to be on to something new; I want a new experience; I want to have a lot to take with me when I leave this lifetime: fun, relationships and experiences, an hopefully positive impact. But, the driver for me to jump out of bed is the unknown joy that's gonna unfold in my day. 

What do you want more of in your life?

I want more... more people. More collaborations. More waking up. More ice cream (laughs). Like, meeting you today is... that's to me... you just blew up my life, blew up my world. Meeting you has that much impact for me; that much joy. 

Do you have anything else you'd like to put out there?

Yeah, you know what's coming to me to say is it is our expectations that limit us. If you think you know what your next week is gonna look like, you've pretty much eliminated the surprises; you've eliminated the magic. And you've set yourself up to be disappointed. So, I could say that to watch that your expectations are pretty much setting up what's gonna happen next. And if you could relax your grip on your expectations, you'd be opening up space for more magic and more opportunities and more fulfillment. 

Throughout this interview, you will likely notice a number of longer-than-usual pauses between questions. And that is because I am processing what Dorothy just said. I don't know that I've ever had so many revelatory moments in a single conversation before. Casey recommended Dorothy to me and she promptly and happily accepted and invited me into her home.

Darlene Gertsch

I could sing any number of high praises for Darlene, but I am going to keep this introduction short because you will know them all to be true by reading or listening to this interview. Meeting her was one of my greatest delights. She exudes kindness and joy and love in ways I have rarely, if ever before, encountered. Just being with her offered me very welcome encouragement and she will long remain a source of inspiration for me. I owe a big thank you to Susanne for connecting us together. Darlene's participation in this project is a gift to every single one of us. 

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

Well, I'm a citizen of the world. I've lived all over the world and I love culture; I love people. Sort of an amateur anthropologist because I'm so curious about people and love to connect and see how we're the same. No matter where I've been I can always find common threads - nice word for you. And, for the past many years, I would say I'm a teacher of personal growth and well-being. 

What matters to you?

For so many years it was all about children and family. And now, in my later years, it's still that connection of community, which I love so much, and the well-being of others. 

Where does your motivation come from? 

Well, I would have to say grief because it meant so much to me to have a family - I've brought forth five little boys and then I've lost two of them in the last 19 years. So, that's my motivation. It was how to live through that and how to find it as a source - a catalyst - for growth. So that's how Good Grief came into being. My motivation was to get well; to not stay stuck. I've known a lot of mothers who have lost children and they are stuck and devastated for the rest of their lives and I knew I could not do that. So, it was to get well and then realizing that a lot of people are trying to get well from many different sources of grief; trying to rise above it but not having tools and knowing how to do it. Because, typically, we're denying grief; we numb it; we medicate it; we (laughs) do everything we can to avoid it. And now it's really... grief is what motivates me. And I love good grief; I love sharing grief and finding the goodness in it. 

What do we mean to each other individual to individual?

I think we're moving toward global oneness, but before we can get to that, we have to be connected to our own source of well-being - whatever that means to each person - to the divine, to the Earth. And knowing that we're connected to ourselves, to the divine, to one another. And it really increases that sense of global community and oneness. 

What are your thoughts on when people's source of well-being is in contrast to the greater good?

Mmhmm. I can recognize it and call it paradise feigned. I think it's where a vast majority of our people live in that space - trying to cope, trying to be happy, trying to be well - without getting to the root of that which has caused us to be unwell. It is the human condition is to lose our well-being and it happens very early in life and we're always trying to find it again. We're seeking that paradise. But we get stuck and we find ways to cope that aren't necessarily really healthy - not for us, not for our families, not for out communities. 

What does community mean to you?

It's been a big learning; community's tough to define. And it's very difficult to build community. I think, for me, what it means is that we all find our humanity in one another. That we all suffer, we all have pain, we all have joy, we all want to be happy, we want to be well. And finding that sense in other people. When I hold my community groups here that's what people are really amazed to realize - is that they're not alone. Because we tend to feel very, very alone when we haven't worked with our issues of grief and loss. And to realize, Wow (laughs) everybody in this room feels like I do. Mmhmm. And that's very connecting; it's the beginning of our work. It's the beginning to be able to acknowledge that; 'cause what we don't acknowledge, we can't heal. 

Throughout my life I've participated in various small groups. And those can be inspiring and invigorating, but it seems that once we leave that setting and get back into the world, we often forget about the experiences we had there. How do we hold onto the lessons that we learn?

I think we need the tools. I think we need to accumulate tools. I go to the prison every week and have been doing this for many years. They've taken to calling me the Grief Sherpa. And so, it's true; I have a lot of tools; I have a lot to share. And I unload those tools week by week. But we need the tools; we need to know. That's why we're coping instead of actually doing anything about our loss and pain. We're coping, but we're not doing anything about the source of that. 

On the other side of the what matters to you question, what concerns you? 

What concerns me is the enormous pain in this world and the way it creates so much separation. And that's never gonna help. The more we divide and separate, the more pain we're in as a global community. And so, again, going back to finding our humanity and our connection to one another, our connection to source, our own true well-being as individuals then creates that opportunity to connect on deeper, deeper levels. And that's what's missing. 

There's a myriad of social injustices. What's your role, or one's role, in the fight against those?

Mmhmm. Well, I would say my work is not a fight against anything, but more a positive guidance towards that which brings us together. 

Sometimes people need a bit of an arm-twisting. So where do guidance toward and fight against meet?

You bet your boots (laughs). Well, I'm a great believer in honoring the fact that we're all on a continuum. I believe that every living being is engaged to become well; to be stewards of this Earth; to be in oneness. Usually what's going to catalyze a person to pay attention - to stop whatever they're doing in however whey they are coping - it takes, often, a really big, almost traumatic thing in some cases to make people stop and realize, Wow, whatever I'm doing is not working. And they call this hitting bottom. In our world of grief - I work with many, many addicts, too - it's just realizing, This isn't it; doesn't work; I'm not well; I'm not happy. My men end up at prison for a very good reason - that they've hit bottom in another way. And, unfortunately, that's what it takes. Because when most people think of grief, they'll say, I don't have any grief. You know? And we immediately... the subject is gone. Like right now. 'Cause just that word grief turns people off. They're gonna either change the subject, they're gonna run, or they're gonna say, What? What do you do? Grief? And they're on to something else. It's kind of a verboten word and it's verboten to go there. It's almost like, How dare (laughs) anybody want to take me out of my bubble? It's very interesting territory. But it speaks to those who are ready. There's a readiness and people know it. And they know when they're not.

Why do you suppose we have to work toward wellness? The way you speak about seems to imply that we're born unwell.

Not born unwell, no. No! But we are immediately born into a world where we are gonna be programmed and conditioned and imprinted. It happens to all of us. Mmhmm. And right from the beginning... I used to say by five years old we're really conditioned. We already have our map of the world and we know where we fit in. But now they're saying it's more like age two or three years old that we already have been so taken out, really, of our sort of pristine innocence. Yeah. And I believe that to be true. 

Do you have a name for why?

Mmhmm. I do. Paradise lost. Yeah. We're brought into human condition. And the human condition is that there's gonna be a lot of pain, separation, and suffering. And so it's almost like we really spend many years, if not most of our lives, really trying to heal that which occurred early in life to understand where negative beliefs came in. Negative beliefs such as unworthiness or lacking somewhere, not belonging, not being loved - these are really basic negative core beliefs that every single one of us have unless we're born a saint. Yeah. 

Do you have a sense of purpose?

Oh, absolutely. I stand squarely in my purpose. Yeah, I know what it is. And I already mentioned it; I'm a teacher of personal growth. I'm really patient with people; allowing them their journey through the growth process. But I also know when people are not ready. And so my patience goes a long, long way. But when I understand people are not ready to go any further I really get it and I honor it. They will be someday. And, by the way, that is an intuitive thing - you mentioned it - that we don't have to be moving toward well-being. It's an intuitive part of being in the human condition. We are seeking that well-being. And it may be in alcohol, it may be all the ways we become addicted and numbed out. And so, the intuitive thing is to get well. Mmhmm. And that's the continuum we're speaking of. 

What do you want more of in your life?

What do I want more in my life? Absolutely nothing (laughs). I'm just as well and happy as I can be; as I've ever been in my whole life. Yeah. It's too bad you have to get to 72 (laughs) to get that. Just more of all of it. 

Do you have anything you'd like to put out there?

Let's see if there's anything more that I haven't spoken to. Well, I haven't mentioned love. And I think that's certainly the key to everything I do in this world. And this journey to wellness and wholeness and well-being in the world is all about love. Eckhart Tolle says, All love is the love of self. And, for most of us, we think, Whoa, that really sounds selfish. And yet, it's not meant that way. But as we become centered in the love of who we are, it's really easy, as we do our inner work of healing, that that love energy goes out into the world and everyone is blessed by that. Everyone. When more and more of us are becoming the love that we are, we are creating that heaven on Earth - that global community where everybody thrives. We have quite a ways to go yet (laughs), but I'm there. That's my work. That's my joy. And I don't leave that space. And I see that in you, by the way, my dear. Being the love that you are. And it's not easy to be that in this world because many people don't understand it - what it is. But they will. They remember. 'Cause love, when it's met and felt, it remains. 

I could sing any number of high praises for Darlene, but I am going to keep this introduction short because you will know them all to be true by reading or listening to this interview. Meeting her was one of my greatest delights.

Carol Delmonico

As neighbors at Higher Ground and co-authors of the journal, Stoke Your Woke, Casey naturally connected me to Carol and Carol graciously accepted the invitation to participate here. She met me at the entrance to their community-focused neighborhood and walked me up the hill to her home. We sat across from each other in the sunlight and immediately dove into a deep and warm conversation. We spoke for close to an hour before we officially started the interview and that thing I couldn't name in the introduction to my interview with Josh came alive again during that time. Carol has beautiful words to describe whatever it is that settles into the conversation between one and another. She and I share a skepticism for the system and the way it demands our participation and it is likely the source of that doubt that is responsible for our pursuit of a different way of navigating through this life. We talked through some tough questions and shed some tears together. I didn't feel like a stranger when we first met and I certainly left feeling like a friend. Thank you, Carol, for being so real with me today. 

---

Who are you and how would you describe yourself?

(Laughs) I love it 'cause that's exactly the kinds of questions I love to ask, too. I love the words of John O'Donohue about who I am. He describes it as, The soul is bigger than the body. So, I am a human body within a soul. And I like to think of the world that way - that, you know, we're all connected that way. So, I'm me, but I'm also not separate from you. So, I'm so many things. Like if I was just gonna identify who I am, I am lots of parts. And I'm healthiest when I'm not fully identified with any one part of myself. But I can be in the role, sort of like putting on clothes. You know, I have the role of a mother; I have a role of a partner; I have a role of community member; I love to dance; I love to laugh; I like to hula hoop; I love to ask questions; and I love to sit in small circles. So, I described myself as a cultural change agent when I was talking to the Source and I think it's that thing of, you know, I'm someone who really questions, in a deep way, the cultural norms and conditioning and I believe in possibility and that imagination, wonder, and possibility are really a big piece of the direction we can go to create a world that works for all. So, that's a part of me, too. 

What matters to you? Or what motivates you? 

Well, there's so much that matters to me. And I think the biggest thing, and I even question this, is every living thing matters to me and raising awareness and helping people wake up and grow up really matters to me because I see our world - you know, we're pretty anthropocentric - so what matters to me is helping people get out of seeing the world only through the lens of what it means to be human. So, reverence really matters to me; living every day, living into that word, having reverence for all of life supports me to have a different kind of a day. 

I think what motivates me is there is some part of me that believes in humankind and I've had enough experience - because of my job at the hospital, I ended up getting to have probably 3,000 different conversations - some coaching conversations and some just checking in for a health screening - recognizing that when we come together and talk about something and listen to something that's important to someone else, we can see beyond maybe all the labels; the way we label people and other people. So, what motivates me is seeing that I can fall in love with anybody when I hear their story. So, that motivates me to believe in humans. And if I can believe in humankind, then I believe we can create a world that works for all. 

What do we mean to each other individual to individual?

Wow, that's a big question (laughs). I love these questions! What do we mean to each other? Well, I guess, the first thing is I think we need each other and I think when we're in denial of that is when we get into the most trouble. Humans are wired for connection; humans are wired for touch. And we need each other, not just human to human, but we need trees, and we need water, and we need oxygen. You know? So, it's all connected. We need each other because in that connectivity is how we sustain life. We need each other because... one of the things I talk about when I'm talking about relationship with people is one plus one equals, really, three. I like to talk about the third thing. When you and I are sitting here in relationship to each other, we create a third thing, which is our relationship. And so it's not one plus one equals two, it's one plus one equals three. And we're always doing that - everywhere we go. So, it matters because, again, I don't ever see us as not being in relationship to something. And so, that matters to understand that. I think it matters to... life. Not sure if that made any sense (laughs). 

I am effected by others in a mega way. If a smile or a hello or a kind act isn't reciprocated, I'm wounded. Through these experiences, I'm building an idea of how we should be to each other. How do we turn this idea that kindness matters into a movement?

I totally heard what you said and I have that same experience often. Again, I think, for me, it goes back to this exploration of sort of both and. So, there's a lot of things, but one is that yes, we live in a world where sometimes someone doesn't look up and say hello or someone doesn't respond if I open a door or sometimes maybe I don't respond if I'm... so, a couple things occurred to me, but one is that the Cleveland Clinic came out with this really beautiful video on empathy. It's in a hospital or walking into a hospital and it just shows images of people moving and then it tells a little bit of a story of what's going on inside their head. So, like, this person is coming in because their wife is dying and this person, standing on the elevator, just had a miscarriage, and this father is going to see his baby for the first time. But it's that understanding and that thing about we aren't in line as a culture we don't really understand that if we're too lost in our interior life, then how is that being interpreted by people that come upon us? And when we're the person that's seeing it, we can't sometimes see that maybe they're really in pain and that's why they can't look up. We forget, right? There's that dance of the internal world and the external world and me and we. So that we're always connected, right? There's really not a separation between you and I sitting here. And if I can't articulate my internal life and say to you, I didn't look up and say hello because I'm grieving a conversation I had earlier about someone else, so I'm distracted and I'm not here in the moment. We haven't created a culture where there's that much honesty and vulnerability among strangers that we happenstance, so some of my own work on that is learning how to trust that, when I can turn it around healthily, is that person's doing the best they can in the moment. And more important to me is not to other them for not doing something, but to just hold the discomfort in myself that they didn't acknowledge me or they didn't acknowledge what I did. And how do I not make it about them? And how do I cultivate continuing to look up and smile and say hello and continuing to believe in human kindness and sharing? Yeah, how do I model how I want to be in the world and what I want to come back at me? And to recognize that I'm not going to be perfect at it. You know, just like that person that didn't say hello to me on the Butte the other day, I may be that person some day. It's rare for me to be that person (laughs), but I might be that person to somebody else some day and I might not even notice I'm being that person. Because I'm in so much pain, I'm not even paying attention to the fact that I haven't looked up or seen them or... right? So I think it's working on that sense of interior exterior, me and we, and the dance of holding and remembering that everybody, in their own way, has that going on, too. 

What does community mean to you?

Again, I love the question. The first thing that came to me is that community is any time I'm in relationship with any living thing. So, I can be in community - in fact, some of my favorite places of being in community are - when I'm walking through a ponderosa forest. So, in Shevlin Park or out at the Metolius, I feel like I belong to that greater community of trees. I sometimes say to people (laughs), I think I was a tree in my last life... It's so easy to feel a part of their community because, for me, they're just so relatable. I don't know... just energetic, I guess. But really, any time I'm in relationship with any other person, I'm in community. Whether it's a community of two or a community of three or a community of 500. I also see community as slightly different than tribe or the way we kind of articulate those things now. Community is inclusive; you don't have to be a certain way to be a part of community. You might have to be a certain way to be a part of a tribe of people now. And I'm not sure, but it's sort of how I see the way it's articulated or utilized now in our culture - the word tribe. Community, to me, is sort of like the villages in Europe where everybody gets to be themselves. There's going to be people that you might not really resonate with or might drive you absolutely crazy, but they're still a part of your community and there's a part of you that learns to love them even if you don't like them. So, community is learning how to be in the mix. You know, be a part of. Be connected to and an individual. And you don't have to be the same to belong to community. And that's sort of what Higher Ground has been about. And it's a learning. It's not how we've been conditioned - or not how I was conditioned - to see. You know, we other each other so much. We're othering all the time - separating ourselves - and so community is that larger picture of can I take the time to notice that I do that and can I shift into seeing this person as a human being? Again, sort of that same concept of sharing what we have together without having to be the same. 

On the other side of what matters to you, what concerns you?

Well, lots of things (laughs). Probably the biggest... oh, there's so many concerns. I think one of the biggest things that concerns me is that, again, our business-as-usual model; how we live, at least how I see it, is that we're so short-sighted. Like some of the indigenous cultures, I want us to think about seven generations beyond us. I'm concerned that we aren't looking far enough out. If we looked that far out, we would be living very differently now. I have really big concerns for the more-than-human world and the decimation of that. I even get a little teary about this. I worry about my children's future. An their children. Or the children of that generation - of your generation. Yeah. 

What is your role in the fight against social injustice? 

Oh, that's an easy question for me to answer. (Laughs) Thank you for giving me an easy one! Well, not so easy. Joanna Macy, and there's others, but they call this time we're in the Great Turning. And the other two ways that we could describe where we are right now, we're in the business-as-usual, which we just keep doing what we're doing or the Great Unraveling, which is sort of that hopelessness that the world is just going to fall apart and we're too overwhelmed by it. She describes three ways that we can participate and one is holding patterns. So, people that work towards holding onto what we have, like saving the trees or the whales or people doing holding, you know, abortion laws - things like that. So, there's that work. There's people that are creating new systems and new forms. And then, there's people that are consciousness changers - people that work on supporting consciousness change. And, so that's me. That's really where I fall. It's what my soul wants to do. It's the work of Stoke Your Woke. It's my coaching practice. Really trying to help people, again, wake up and grow up. And growing up - it's kind a confusing term. We consider ourselves as adults in age at, you know, 18 to 25. But our definition of what it means to be an adult, I believe, needs to be reworked. One of the ways Bill Plotkin describes it is, When you can take care of and believe in taking care of the more-than-human world, then you've reached an adult stage. So, when you see outside of your own self-interest, your own family unit interest, even your own extended family and friend unit -when you see beyond that, you're in an adult stage. So, I'm a consciousness changer; my own and trying to support other people when they're ready to begin to look at different perspectives and ways of feeling, seeing, being, sensing. 

What do you want more of in your life?

Wow, feel emotional again on that one. Well, I can't separate what I want from what I want for the world. I want us to share more. I want humans - all of us - to take a step back and be able to see the world through the eyes of something other than human, maybe. I'd like there to be less suffering in the world. Yeah. It's funny 'cause what I want more of is... I think more awareness around developing those things we talked about before you put the recorder on - you know, accumulating insight and wisdom and understanding and listening skills and for us to want to accumulate things that actually don't do damage to the world. 

Do you have anything else that you'd like to put out there?

I guess just I'd really love all humans to really dig deep and do their part - stop numbing yourself out; stop disconnecting; stop being a sheep. You're here now. I was listening to this thing with Marianne Williamson a while ago and I think it was with Jean Houston - I don't know if you know her, but she's been around along time; she's in her 80s; amazing woman - but she jokingly said to this audience of thousands of people, You aren't raising your hand to go to the bathroom if you're here now. If you're here now, you're here because you're capable and ready and you're here during this transformative time because you chose to come, so do your F-ing work. (Laughs) So, that's what I'd say to people. 

She met me at the entrance to their community-focused neighborhood and walked me up the hill to her home. We sat across from each other in the sunlight and immediately dove into a deep and warm conversation.